/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-11-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Nov 13 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  7. # [00:46] * DanC re-discovers http://json.org/JSONRequest.html ... understood the security motivation for a moment, but then it leaked out. hmm...
  8. # [00:47] <pimpbot> Title: JSONRequest (at json.org)
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  11. # [01:02] <MikeSmith> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-markup-report-part-1-the-basics/
  12. # [01:02] <pimpbot> Title: MAMA: Markup report, part 1: the basics - Opera Developer Community (at dev.opera.com)
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  16. # [01:50] <Hixie> hey MikeSmith, did anyone volunteer to edit anything?
  17. # [01:51] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I've not heard myself from anyone yet
  18. # [01:52] <Hixie> i see
  19. # [01:52] <Hixie> so for all the... feedback, when it comes to actually doing anything, all we hear are crickets
  20. # [01:55] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I had some hope that Mozilla and Apple might be able to provide/support some additional editors.
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  22. # [02:05] <Dashiva> But Apple already provided Hyatt ;)
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  31. # [04:43] <MikeSmith> http://devfiles.myopera.com/articles/570/elemlist-url.htm
  32. # [04:43] <pimpbot> Title: Markup element list (at devfiles.myopera.com)
  33. # [04:43] <MikeSmith> http://devfiles.myopera.com/articles/570/attrlist-url.htm
  34. # [04:43] <pimpbot> Title: Markup attribute list (at devfiles.myopera.com)
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  37. # [05:27] <MikeSmith> http://ejohn.org/blog/accuracy-of-javascript-time/
  38. # [05:27] <pimpbot> Title: John Resig - Accuracy of JavaScript Time (at ejohn.org)
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  64. # [13:05] <MikeSmith> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-November/017138.html
  65. # [13:05] <pimpbot> Title: [whatwg] Combining the DedicatedWorker and SharedWorker interfaces (at lists.whatwg.org)
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  112. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
  113. # [18:04] * @trackbot is starting a teleconference
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  115. # [18:04] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/13-html-wg-irc
  116. # [18:04] <@trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  117. # [18:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  118. # [18:04] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  119. # [18:04] <@trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
  120. # [18:04] <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
  121. # [18:04] <@trackbot> Meeting: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference
  122. # [18:04] <@trackbot> Date: 13 November 2008
  123. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
  124. # [18:04] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  125. # [18:04] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  126. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Mike
  127. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> Zakim, code?
  128. # [18:04] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MikeSmith
  129. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> Chair: MikeSmith
  130. # [18:05] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-work
  131. # [18:05] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  132. # [18:05] <Zakim> +DanC
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  134. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P2
  135. # [18:05] <Joshue> zakim, ??p2 is Joshue
  136. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
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  138. # [18:08] * DanC is here
  139. # [18:08] <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
  140. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> Regrets+ ChrisWilson, LauraCarlson, Julian
  141. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2008OctDec/0005.html
  142. # [18:08] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG telcon 2008-11-13 - f2f summary, markup spec, authoring guide from Michael(tm) Smith on 2008-11-12 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from October to December 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  143. # [18:09] <Zakim> + +1.519.378.aaaa
  144. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  145. # [18:09] <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike, DanC, Joshue, Cynthia_Shelly, +1.519.378.aaaa
  146. # [18:09] <DanC> Zakim, aaaa is MurrayM
  147. # [18:09] <Zakim> +MurrayM; got it
  148. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> Present+ MikeSmith, DanC, Josh, Cynthia, MurrayMaloney
  149. # [18:11] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  150. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> Present+ AdrianBatemen
  151. # [18:11] <DanC> Zakim, [Microsoft] is Adrian
  152. # [18:11] <Zakim> +Adrian; got it
  153. # [18:12] <Joshue> scribenick:Joshue
  154. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> scribenick: Joshue
  155. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> scribe: Joshue
  156. # [18:13] * Quits: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  157. # [18:13] <Joshue> TOPIC: Markup Lanhuage Spec
  158. # [18:13] <Joshue> s/Lanhuage/Language
  159. # [18:14] <Joshue> MikeS: I posted a draft of the spec that I have been working on. It would be helpful as a starting point.
  160. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/
  161. # [18:14] <pimpbot> Title: HTML: The Markup Language (at www.w3.org)
  162. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute Joshue
  163. # [18:14] <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
  164. # [18:14] <Joshue> MikeS: I realize very few have looked at it. Has anyone initial comments?
  165. # [18:15] * Joshue can people identify themselves also
  166. # [18:15] <Joshue> MikeS: Gives outline of abstract
  167. # [18:16] <Joshue> MikeS: The doc defines authors, producers and consumers differently.
  168. # [18:17] <Joshue> MikeS: Gives further details. No normative criteria, web browsers are not defined in terms of how they parse HTML, Is not intended to be an aurthoring guide.
  169. # [18:18] <Joshue> MikeS: HTML Syntax is described. Various Mime Types are discussed. Its the same prose as defined in the current draft, prettty much. Optional BOM are mentioned etc.
  170. # [18:19] <Joshue> MikeS: DOC Type, character encoding etc are defined. The remianing part of spec is a list of HTML elements and their content models, attributes and values etc.
  171. # [18:19] <takkaria> I had a brief look, looked reasonable, but I would be worried people take it for normative
  172. # [18:20] * DanC thinks reading the abstract for the benefit of those offline was ok, but not much more, please
  173. # [18:20] <Joshue> MikeS: In addition there is a section on common content models, phrase and prose content matches bloack and inline content. Then definitions of sets of common attributes. Similar to HTML 4 draft and other markup specs.
  174. # [18:21] <Joshue> MikeS: Last part deals with ARIA markup, attribute sets, enumerated values for ARIA attributes. Semantics uundefined as they are in the ARIA spec. Then exahistive list of name character references.
  175. # [18:22] <Joshue> MM: Test kit being build.
  176. # [18:22] <Joshue> MikeS: Not a schema?
  177. # [18:23] <Joshue> MM: Its a grammer to build a parser.
  178. # [18:23] <Joshue> MikeS: Interesting
  179. # [18:23] <Joshue> MM: I will ask him to join WG.
  180. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> q?
  181. # [18:23] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  182. # [18:23] <Joshue> MS: WIll you have more infor next week?
  183. # [18:23] <Joshue> MM: Yes
  184. # [18:23] <Joshue> s/infor/info
  185. # [18:24] <Joshue> Adrian: Do you have a view as to how having this doc changes what the HTML 5 spec is/does?
  186. # [18:25] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@84.97.227.22) (Ping timeout)
  187. # [18:26] <Joshue> MS: Right now as far as content models and syntax description. This matches what is in the HTML 5 draft. We want to keep things that way. We need to decide that the current part of semantics, content models etc should be kept there. We need to keep them in synch. As different docs have diff editors there may not always be agreement.
  188. # [18:26] <Joshue> MS: We want this to be normative. There can only be one spec so this will superceed anything else.
  189. # [18:28] <Joshue> Adrian: This looks like a good start. In terms of a descriptive doc that talks about the language and not its use. However, how practical is this? How much of the text has been taken from the HTML 5 draft?
  190. # [18:28] <Joshue> MS: This spec should have a lot of non-normative content.
  191. # [18:29] * DanC Zakim, mute me
  192. # [18:29] * Zakim DanC should now be muted
  193. # [18:29] * DanC Zakim, mute my dogs
  194. # [18:29] * Zakim I don't understand 'mute my dogs', DanC
  195. # [18:29] * DanC Zakim, mute my dogs ;-)
  196. # [18:29] * Zakim I'm glad that smiley is there, DanC
  197. # [18:31] <Joshue> MS: It should not describe rendering behaviors normatively, or have too much description of rendering behavior etc. many say the current draft conflates authoring and rendering domains. These are seperate so there is confusion. I like to have the markup spec not do this anymore. Seperate some of the under the hood stuff from the user manual aspect. Want to see the spec defined as an abstract language without processing assumptions.
  198. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> s/This spec should have/This spec should not have/
  199. # [18:32] <Joshue> Adrian: That is a good goal.
  200. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> q?
  201. # [18:32] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  202. # [18:32] <DanC> (trying to construct a proof in my head that the language defined in Mike's draft is smaller than the language in Hixie's draft; hmm... don't think there is one... I think it's not actually a theorem. I think there are counter-examples)
  203. # [18:32] <Joshue> Joshue things this may make it easier to uunderstand for all concerned.
  204. # [18:32] <DanC> ack me
  205. # [18:32] * Zakim unmutes DanC
  206. # [18:32] <Joshue> s/things/thinks
  207. # [18:32] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  208. # [18:33] <Joshue> DacC: Its not smaller than the language Hixie defines as conformant.
  209. # [18:33] <Joshue> DanC: In that docs conforming to his spec is conforming to yours.
  210. # [18:33] <Joshue> MS; It is.
  211. # [18:33] <Joshue> DanC: I don't think so.
  212. # [18:33] <DanC> (other way around)
  213. # [18:34] <Joshue> MS: You are right.
  214. # [18:34] <DanC> DanC: e.g. documents that misuse headings, cite, etc. are prohibited by the HTML 5 spec
  215. # [18:35] <Joshue> MS: Discusses schemas, parsing of schemas, attribute model and pattern definitions. RelaxNG etc.
  216. # [18:37] <Joshue> MS: Programmatic extracts/additions of certain content via Schematron. Josh unable to parse some statements.
  217. # [18:38] <Joshue> Cythia: I am curious why this is done that way?
  218. # [18:38] <DanC> (I think having feedback between validation tools and the spec is good... though this is something of an extreme approach)
  219. # [18:39] <Joshue> MS; It is circular. Not ideal. Changes to the spec will go other way, or not be one way from validator to the spec. If changes are made the assertions that vlidator.nu are making will have to be changed to match the spec. At his point they are one way.
  220. # [18:39] <Joshue> Cynthia: It is reasonable to do this in order to get the spec out.
  221. # [18:41] <Joshue> MS: Its about having a formal description of the language. Formalisims are currently prose desciptions in order to not lock people who write a conformance checker. High level language used in order to design a tool around it loosely.
  222. # [18:41] <DanC> (publishing the schema as a note is an interesting idea.)
  223. # [18:42] <Joshue> MS: Hixie feels there should not a normative shema for the language. Other builders have a disincentive to build anything. All of these normative schemas for the language seemed to stop others from developeing their own. We want to avoid this, having only one tool.
  224. # [18:43] <Joshue> Cythia: Yes, some need this behind a firewall.
  225. # [18:43] <Joshue> MS: This can be done and works well.
  226. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> q?
  227. # [18:43] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  228. # [18:43] <DanC> q+ murray
  229. # [18:43] * Zakim sees murray on the speaker queue
  230. # [18:43] <DanC> ack murray
  231. # [18:43] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  232. # [18:43] <Joshue> Cythia: We dont want to give advantage to one set of schemas.
  233. # [18:44] <Joshue> MM: When developing a formalism for HTML, we can build a grammer, define constraints etc. It depends on what you are trying to do.
  234. # [18:47] <Joshue> MM: Grammer needs to be correct. Stuff taken from different namespaces can be dealt with. Others have more rigorous purposes, may not be public facing. The grammer needs to be examined to be a more liberal version that conformance checkers want to use, then good stuff.
  235. # [18:47] <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
  236. # [18:47] <Joshue> MS: Existing validators, and HTML 4. ZHTML 1.0 and 1.1 (DTD based validation tools)
  237. # [18:48] <Joshue> MM: When you procude a DTD, the doc that accompanies it is produced alongside it. There are better formalisms to do this etc
  238. # [18:49] <Joshue> MS: I understand. Validator.nu is doing a lot more that just conformance checking.
  239. # [18:49] <Joshue> MM: You claim that it does that is false.
  240. # [18:49] <takkaria> you have to be very very careful that people don't start trying to consume HTML via a grammar rather than an implementation of the parsing algorithm
  241. # [18:51] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  242. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> q?
  243. # [18:51] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  244. # [18:51] <Joshue> MS: I conceed that, however when a decent schema is availalbe, validation against a schema etc there are more sophistcated tools. But the problem is that many see that passing the validator is percieved as meaning their content is fit for purpose. Schema checking alone does not always mean your doc can be processed the way you want it to be.
  245. # [18:51] <Joshue> MM: Again this is false.
  246. # [18:51] <Joshue> MS: I hear what you are saying. Other comments?
  247. # [18:52] <Joshue> Cynthia: This is a good idea. It will be helpful.
  248. # [18:52] * Joshue lol
  249. # [18:54] <Joshue> MS: I think to have the Authoring guide as a way to make it clear to help them have their docs work on the web. It also needs to cover the DOM interface for scripting purposes. Real world use cases etc. This will keep the spec minimal. remove informative stuff into the authoring guide etc
  250. # [18:54] <Joshue> MM: Then call it something else.
  251. # [18:54] <Joshue> MS: No
  252. # [18:55] <Joshue> Cythia: It could have subtitle?
  253. # [18:55] <Joshue> MS: We have talked to developers and they want this.
  254. # [18:55] <Joshue> +q
  255. # [18:55] * Zakim sees Joshue on the speaker queue
  256. # [18:55] <Joshue> zakim, unmute me
  257. # [18:55] <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
  258. # [18:56] <Joshue> MM; How about a browsers guide, devlopers guide etc?
  259. # [18:56] <Joshue> MS: We need a normative guide for browsers..
  260. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> s/MM;/MM: /
  261. # [18:56] <Joshue> MM: You can't hve that.
  262. # [18:57] <Joshue> MM: I am not understanding this.
  263. # [18:57] <Joshue> DanC: You said this was a spec for how UAs behave.
  264. # [18:58] <Joshue> MM: Strong objection
  265. # [18:58] <Joshue> -q
  266. # [18:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  267. # [18:58] * Joins: CGI707 (836b0046@128.30.52.43)
  268. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> Joshue: some document that is specifically for authors, that cuts out a lot of the under-the-hood stuff is in principle a good idea
  269. # [18:59] <Joshue> MM: I am going to make this an issue.
  270. # [18:59] <Joshue> zakim, mute me
  271. # [18:59] <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
  272. # [18:59] <DanC> issue-61?
  273. # [18:59] * @trackbot getting information on ISSUE-61
  274. # [18:59] <@trackbot> ISSUE-61 -- Conformance depends on author's intent -- RAISED
  275. # [18:59] <@trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/61
  276. # [18:59] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-61 - HTML Issue Tracking Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  277. # [18:59] <DanC> maybe that's not so close to what Murray wanted on the issues list after all
  278. # [19:00] * Quits: maddiin (mc@87.185.252.65) (Quit: maddiin)
  279. # [19:00] <DanC> action-77?
  280. # [19:00] * @trackbot getting information on ACTION-77
  281. # [19:00] <@trackbot> ACTION-77 -- Michael(tm) Smith to lead HTML WG to response to TAG discussion and report back to TAG -- due 2008-10-30 -- OPEN
  282. # [19:00] <@trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/77
  283. # [19:00] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-77 - HTML Issue Tracking Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  284. # [19:00] <Joshue> MS: I did want to talk to the TAG list about this. Let them know we have followed up on the discussion. I have an item to do this. This should take place on the public HTML list.
  285. # [19:00] <Joshue> MM: I don't follow
  286. # [19:01] <Joshue> MS: The action item is complete.
  287. # [19:01] <DanC> ISSUE-59?
  288. # [19:01] * @trackbot getting information on ISSUE-59
  289. # [19:01] <@trackbot> ISSUE-59 -- Should the HTML WG produce a separate document that is a normative language reference and if so what are the requirements -- RAISED
  290. # [19:01] <@trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/59
  291. # [19:01] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-59 - HTML Issue Tracking Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  292. # [19:01] <DanC> (maybe that's closer)
  293. # [19:02] <MikeSmith> Topic: Any other business?
  294. # [19:02] <Joshue> MS: Lets take the rest of the discussion to public HTML.
  295. # [19:02] <Joshue> TOPIC: AOB
  296. # [19:02] <Joshue> @headers?
  297. # [19:02] <pimpbot> Joshue: Huh?
  298. # [19:02] <Joshue> zakiim, unmute me
  299. # [19:02] <DanC> (just briefly, who has the ball on headers?)
  300. # [19:02] <Joshue> zakim, unmute me
  301. # [19:02] <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
  302. # [19:02] * Quits: CGI707 (836b0046@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC)
  303. # [19:03] * Joins: CGI707 (836b0046@128.30.52.43)
  304. # [19:03] <DanC> (the actions listed in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/20 seem stale. )
  305. # [19:03] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-20 - HTML Issue Tracking Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  306. # [19:03] <MikeSmith> Joshue: we are talking with PF about @headers and discussing how to move this along a little farther
  307. # [19:04] <DanC> (hm... so it sounds like anybody/somebody/nobody has the ball.)
  308. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> action: Joshue to prepare status report on @headers discussion by next week
  309. # [19:04] * @trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  310. # [19:04] * RRSAgent records action 1
  311. # [19:04] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-84 - Prepare status report on @headers discussion by next week [on Joshue O Connor - due 2008-11-20].
  312. # [19:05] <Joshue> waves bye
  313. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Joshue
  314. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> Topic: Next meeting
  315. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> we will have the telcon at the regular time next week, probably with ChrisWilson chairing
  316. # [19:06] * Quits: Joshue (Joshue@86.45.216.100) (Quit: Quitting!)
  317. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> [adjourned]
  318. # [19:06] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  319. # [19:06] <Zakim> -Adrian
  320. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  321. # [19:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/13-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  322. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  323. # [19:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike, DanC, MurrayM
  324. # [19:07] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop me
  325. # [19:07] <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I do not see a party named 'MikeSmith'
  326. # [19:07] * Quits: adrianba (adrianba@131.107.0.80) (Quit: leaving)
  327. # [19:07] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
  328. # [19:07] <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
  329. # [19:07] <Zakim> -Mike
  330. # [19:07] <Zakim> -MurrayM
  331. # [19:11] * Parts: deane (opera@121.72.169.27)
  332. # [19:11] * Parts: arne (aj3@84.142.107.78)
  333. # [19:26] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  334. # [19:26] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/13-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  335. # [19:26] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference -- 13 Nov 2008 (at www.w3.org)
  336. # [19:27] <MikeSmith> s/;/:/g
  337. # [19:27] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  338. # [19:27] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/13-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  339. # [19:27] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference -- 13 Nov 2008 (at www.w3.org)
  340. # [19:37] * Joins: adele (adele@17.203.15.250)
  341. # [19:38] * Quits: CGI707 (836b0046@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC)
  342. # [19:40] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, DanC, in HTML_WG()12:00PM
  343. # [19:40] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  344. # [19:41] <Zakim> Attendees were Mike, DanC, Joshue, Cynthia_Shelly, +1.519.378.aaaa, MurrayM, Adrian, [Microsoft]
  345. # [19:41] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, bye
  346. # [19:41] <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/13-html-wg-actions.rdf :
  347. # [19:41] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Joshue to prepare status report on @headers discussion by next week [1]
  348. # [19:41] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/13-html-wg-irc#T17-58-49
  349. # [19:41] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  350. # [19:45] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  351. # [19:47] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: No normative criteria and not an authoring guide. So what the hell is it!?
  352. # [20:17] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: the draft doesn't claim to be non-normative (except for the parts that are explicitly labeled as non-normative)
  353. # [20:18] <takkaria> I worry that if both HTML5 and HTML5-markup are normative, there will be clashes
  354. # [20:19] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20081113#l-168?
  355. # [20:19] <pimpbot> Title: IRC logs: w3c / #html-wg / 20081113 (at krijnhoetmer.nl)
  356. # [20:21] <Hixie> who's the target audience of that draft?
  357. # [20:21] <Hixie> it's hard to evaluate it without knowing exactly who it's for
  358. # [20:21] <Hixie> if it's defining the language proper, it shouldn't have things like <acronym> in it
  359. # [20:23] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: that statement didn't minuted accurately/completely. what I said was "no normative implementation-conformance criteria"
  360. # [20:24] <MikeSmith> Hixie: it has <acronym> because validator.nu also has it, and warns about it being obsolete
  361. # [20:24] <Hixie> sure, but the draft shouldn't have it :-)
  362. # [20:26] <MikeSmith> as far as who the target audience is, I think it's anybody who wants to make sure that their HTML documents conform to the constraints of the language
  363. # [20:26] <MikeSmith> whether they are authoring them in an editor
  364. # [20:26] <MikeSmith> or generating them out of a CMS or whatever
  365. # [20:26] <hober> Wouldn't such a person use a validator to make sure their documents conform?
  366. # [20:26] <Hixie> i really don't think typical authors are going to make head or tail of the document as it's currently written
  367. # [20:27] <MikeSmith> hober: a validator would first need to have a normative spec that describes what's conformant
  368. # [20:27] <Hixie> henri seems to have managed fine with the html5 spec as is
  369. # [20:28] <Hixie> and i'm not conviced this draft has all the detail that one would need
  370. # [20:28] <Hixie> e.g. it doesn't have the parser
  371. # [20:28] <Hixie> nor the attribute value microsyntaxes, iirc
  372. # [20:28] <hober> MikeSmith: like Hixie said, validator.nu is a pretty good argument against that.
  373. # [20:29] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I guess the fact that Henri has managed fine is not a particularly large or representative data set
  374. # [20:30] <hober> Also, we already have a normative spec that describes what's conformant.
  375. # [20:30] <MikeSmith> Hixie: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/#common-datatypes
  376. # [20:30] <pimpbot> Title: HTML: The Markup Language (at www.w3.org)
  377. # [20:30] <MikeSmith> hober: a number of people have suggest that we should have a separate normative spec
  378. # [20:30] <Hixie> wow, those are even harder to read than what's in html5
  379. # [20:31] <MikeSmith> whether or not we should have a separate normative spec of this kind remains open to question and decision
  380. # [20:31] <Hixie> a number of people have suggested that we should have separate specs, each of which wanted something different, and none of which clearly stated what they wanted
  381. # [20:31] <MikeSmith> this is simply one attempt at producing such as spec
  382. # [20:31] <Hixie> it's not clear that this draft is any of them, but it's hard to know without having a clear idea of who the draft is for
  383. # [20:32] <takkaria> the TAG? :)
  384. # [20:32] <Hixie> as is, it's not for authors nor for validator writers, as regexps don't work for authors and validators need the parser spec
  385. # [20:32] <Hixie> each member of the TAG that I have spoken to has a different desire.
  386. # [20:32] <MikeSmith> Hixie: it's for exactly the same people for whom the syntax/structure/semantics parts of the HTML5 draft are for
  387. # [20:32] <Hixie> so we'd have to know who in the tag, exactly, and what their needs are.
  388. # [20:33] <hober> I'm all for having (a plethora of) documents describing how to author high quality HTML. I just don't see how they have anything to do with being normative, or even being a spec at all.
  389. # [20:34] <Hixie> MikeSmith: then i recommend not using regexp syntax and dtd-like syntax :-)
  390. # [20:34] <Hixie> and i think that lachy's non-normative draft is a better solution for them
  391. # [20:34] <Hixie> anyway, gotta go to the vet, will be back later
  392. # [20:37] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, I already know well what your viewpoint is about using regexp and "dtd-like" syntax for this, and understand why you're using prose descriptions for the content models and microsyntaxes in the HTML5 draft instead.
  393. # [20:37] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@66.78.202.167)
  394. # [20:38] <MikeSmith> this intentionally uses formalisms instead
  395. # [20:38] <MikeSmith> I we were to go forward with it, I could imagine that we might want to choose to make it use prose instead
  396. # [20:42] * Joins: maddiin (mc@87.185.230.42)
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  398. # [20:50] <Philip> MikeSmith: It would probably be clearer to use something more like BNF than regexps
  399. # [20:51] <Philip> Alternatively just use nicer regexp syntax, with whitespace and with (?i)blank instead of [bB][lL]... and with (...)? instead of ()|(...) etc :-)
  400. # [20:51] <MikeSmith> Philip: yeah, BNF would be more readable and familiar
  401. # [20:52] <MikeSmith> the reason is uses regexps is because validator.nu uses regexps
  402. # [20:52] <MikeSmith> even if we went with formalisms, the formalism would not necessarily have to be what's in there now
  403. # [20:53] <MikeSmith> but if it were something else, I can't see it likely to be anything else except BNF
  404. # [20:54] <Philip> Making up new formalisms is more fun
  405. # [20:55] <MikeSmith> heh
  406. # [20:55] <takkaria> any new formalisms should be rot13'd in their default encoding
  407. # [20:55] <Philip> I like to consider my OCamlised version of the parser algorithm to be a formalism, although not one that can be trivially defined
  408. # [20:56] <MikeSmith> Philip: maybe we need Dmitri Turn to step in and create a new formalism
  409. # [20:56] <MikeSmith> BNF 6.0
  410. # [20:56] <takkaria> Philip: I'd quite like to see that
  411. # [20:56] <Philip> but it's not that hard to define, since you just have to say what a few dozen primitives mean, and then the rest is simply lists and trees of those things
  412. # [20:57] <Philip> takkaria: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/svn/tokeniser/tokeniser_spec.ml is the tokeniser represented in a data structure
  413. # [20:58] <Philip> (Don't think I've got the treebuilder online, since it's generated automatically from the spec source via regexps)
  414. # [20:59] <MikeSmith> Philip: I think hyperlinked RELAX NG compact syntax for pattern definitions is not a bad way for a spec to represent the relationships (as far as the element and attribute definitions). that's what this draft actually uses
  415. # [20:59] <Philip> It's a very tokeniser-specific formalism, and it's not really at all formal actually, but it's better than raw prose and Java/etc code :-)
  416. # [21:08] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  417. # [21:08] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
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  422. # [22:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: have you considered scraping the datatype definitions from the same wiki page that Validator.nu uses?
  423. # [22:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'm curious: where are the regular expressions from? They don't appear to be from the comments of the whattf.org schema
  424. # [22:11] <hsivonen> oops actually they are
  425. # [22:12] <hsivonen> it turns out that the regexps in comments are buggy...
  426. # [22:12] <hsivonen> they use \s and where they should use [ \t\r\n]
  427. # [22:18] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@24.234.142.17)
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  430. # [22:19] <gsnedders> ABNF would be nice if it supported Unicode
  431. # [22:19] <gsnedders> The other problem is that behaviour is undefined when multiple alternations match
  432. # [22:20] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I added link to your document from about.validator.nu
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  436. # [23:03] <DanC> hmm... so I'm trying to write javascript to mess with the URI RFC... I've got the RFC in an iframe... how do I access the text?
  437. # [23:03] <DanC> seems to be a security-no-no
  438. # [23:03] <Philip> If it's cross-domain, you can't
  439. # [23:04] <Philip> If you can, submit a security bug report to your browser's developers :-)
  440. # [23:04] <DanC> ok... so doing this in-browser rather than in a Makefile was misguided
  441. # [23:04] <DanC> thanks
  442. # [23:05] <Philip> You could make a local copy of the URI RFC, since I assume it's not going to change very often
  443. # [23:05] <Hixie> browsers are a pretty poor environment for text manipulation
  444. # [23:05] <Hixie> i recommend perl
  445. # [23:06] <Philip> Use PerlScript from ActivePerl on Windows, and then you can write Perl in your browser
  446. # [23:07] * Joins: Lachy_ (Lachlan@24.234.142.17)
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  451. # [23:46] <DanC> perl used to be the tool I'd start with... these days it's python. but I'm trying to learn more javascript
  452. # [23:50] <DanC> local copy still gives Permission denied
  453. # [23:50] <Hixie> url?
  454. # [23:51] <Hixie> or relevant parts of html/js?
  455. # [23:51] <Philip> By "local", do you mean file:///?
  456. # [23:52] <Philip> (I guess that has weirder security restrictions)
  457. # [23:52] <Hixie> oh man yeah, avoid file://, you'll end up with all sorts of weirdness there
  458. # [23:55] <DanC> yes, I'm using file:///
  459. # [23:55] <DanC> Failed example:
  460. # [23:55] <DanC> document.getElementById("rfc").contentDocument.length()
  461. # [23:56] <DanC> not sure length() makes sense
  462. # [23:56] <DanC> but it's a plain text document; I just want the string
  463. # [23:56] <Hixie> Document.length isn't a method
  464. # [23:56] <Hixie> so you'll get a JS exception there
  465. # [23:56] <Hixie> assuming you can get to .length at all
  466. # [23:56] <Hixie> also, .length on a Document object will not give you what you want
  467. # [23:56] <DanC> I get: Error: Permission denied to get property HTMLDocument.length
  468. # [23:57] <Hixie> yeah then your two frames are in different security contexts
  469. # [23:57] <Hixie> put them on the same HTTP domain and you should be ok
  470. # [23:57] <Hixie> same directory might work
  471. # [23:57] <Hixie> in file://
  472. # [23:57] <Hixie> but i don't guarantee it
  473. # [23:57] <DanC> "Objects implementing the HTMLIFrameElement interface must also implement the EmbeddingElement interface defined in the Window Object specification. [WINDOW]" -- http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-0.html#the-iframe-element
  474. # [23:58] <pimpbot> Title: 4.8 Embedded content HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  475. # [23:58] <DanC> but [WINDOW] got merged in, yes?
  476. # [23:58] <DanC> I'm also trying to find this stuff in https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Gecko_DOM_Reference#DOM_window_Reference
  477. # [23:58] <Hixie> Window did, EmbeddingElement didn't
  478. # [23:58] <pimpbot> Title: Gecko DOM Reference - MDC (at developer.mozilla.org)
  479. # Session Close: Fri Nov 14 00:00:00 2008

The end :)