/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-11-20 / end

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  64. # [14:17] * MikeSmith surprises himself to find occasion to use the phrase "informative formalisms" in a posting to public-html
  65. # [14:35] <Hixie> that was a really long e-mail to say "i don't know" :-)
  66. # [14:36] <MikeSmith> heh
  67. # [14:37] <Julian> the 1 billion USD per new attribute formula is really helpful, hixie
  68. # [14:37] <Julian> it will help estimating the cost of Dmitri Turins proposals.
  69. # [14:38] <Julian> does 10 billion USD per *element* make sense?
  70. # [14:38] <Hixie> oh hey julian. dunno if you saw from earlier:
  71. # [14:38] <Hixie> 20:03 < Hixie> Julian: regarding http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Nov/0311.html - it would be helpful if you could define what you mean by "language", since different people mean different things, and it's not clear what you mean
  72. # [14:38] <pimpbot> Title: Re: Should we Publish a Language Specification? from Julian Reschke on 2008-11-19 (public-html@w3.org from November 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  73. # [14:38] <Hixie> the 1 billion USD was a very rough estimate of the cost of one particular attribute that was proposed
  74. # [14:38] <Hixie> it's not a general cost per attribute
  75. # [14:38] <Hixie> some attributes cost much more, some much less
  76. # [14:39] <Julian> ah, so what kind of attributes would be cheaper?
  77. # [14:39] <Julian> for instance, what is the estimated cost of a/@ping?
  78. # [14:40] <Julian> with respect to your question: language as in "SGML/XML vocabulary for markup of documents, as opposed to web applications"
  79. # [14:40] <Hixie> who knows, how do you measure the $ revenue of helping a user understand a privacy issue?
  80. # [14:40] <Julian> also, what is the estimated cost of *removing* attributes?
  81. # [14:41] <Hixie> these are all things to consider on a case by case basis
  82. # [14:41] <Hixie> generally i wouldn't recommend putting $ values on spec changes
  83. # [14:41] <Hixie> it's rarely helpful
  84. # [14:41] <Hixie> and the numbers are so widely arbitrary that they're not really comparable
  85. # [14:42] <Julian> aha
  86. # [14:43] <Hixie> so w.r.t. to your statement about wanting the definition of the language in a different document than the definition of "the rest", you want the form submission algorithm to be in a different document than the form controls?
  87. # [14:45] <Julian> Potentially, yes. I haven't thought about that yet.
  88. # [14:45] <Julian> And yes, I realize that different people want different things.
  89. # [14:47] <Hixie> ok well once http splits the header names into a different spec than the caching algorithm, let me know :-)
  90. # [14:47] <Hixie> this is definitely not the kind of innovation that i want to be spearheading
  91. # [14:47] <Hixie> it's a very novel way of writing specs
  92. # [14:47] <Hixie> that no other successful w3c spec that i know of has done
  93. # [14:47] <Hixie> (or ietf spec for that matter)
  94. # [14:48] <Julian> the caching *is* in a different spec
  95. # [14:48] <Julian> header names are defined where they belong to (there are different kinds of headers)
  96. # [14:49] <Hixie> RFC 2616 has section 13 and section 14 in the same spec.
  97. # [14:49] <Hixie> which i believe it should, but that's not what you're asking for for html5
  98. # [14:49] <Hixie> not equivalent to what you're asking for, that is
  99. # [14:49] <Julian> I'm not talking about RFC2616, but about what httpbis is doing.
  100. # [14:50] <Hixie> draft-ietf-httpbis-p6-cache-05.txt has section 4 and section 16 in the same spec.
  101. # [14:50] <Hixie> which i believe it should, but that's not equivalent to what you're asking for for html5
  102. # [14:51] <Hixie> (and as you may be aware, i'm a little concerned about the direction the httpwg is going in in general, so httpbis isn't really what i would use as an example of the way to do things)
  103. # [14:52] <Julian> there's no section 16 in part 6
  104. # [14:52] <jgraham> I hve still not understood the value of trying to split the spec across sections that are heavilly interdependent. However the costs of trying to do so are already obvious
  105. # [14:52] <Julian> if your point is that the spec could be split even further: yes, it could.
  106. # [14:52] <Julian> but there's a balance to keep between too few and too many
  107. # [14:53] <Julian> the benefits are:
  108. # [14:53] <Julian> different parts can evolve independantly
  109. # [14:53] <Hixie> part 6 has a section 16 on page 27
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  111. # [14:54] <Julian> interdependancies become more obvious, so there's more pressure to avoid them
  112. # [14:55] <Hixie> i have nothing against splitting html5 up, indeed i sent an e-mail asking for editors to do just that
  113. # [14:55] <Julian> there is no page 27 in part 6. what are you looking at?
  114. # [14:55] <Hixie> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-httpbis-p6-cache-05.txt
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  116. # [14:56] <Hixie> but splitting it up as you describe doesn't make sense to me, it's a really novel way of splitting the spec up and i don't understand why we would want to pioneer that in html5, given how much other things we are pioneering here
  117. # [14:56] * aaronlev_ is now known as aaronlev
  118. # [14:57] <Hixie> is this the wrong part 6? it's the one linked to from http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/httpbis-charter.html
  119. # [14:57] <jgraham> Julian: Are those the two principal benefits that you see?
  120. # [14:57] <pimpbot> Title: Hypertext Transfer Protocol Bis (httpbis) Charter (at www.ietf.org)
  121. # [14:57] <Julian> something is wrong, compare with http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p5-range-05
  122. # [14:57] <pimpbot> Title: draft-ietf-httpbis-p5-range-05 - HTTP/1.1, part 5: Range Requests and Partial Responses (at tools.ietf.org)
  123. # [14:57] <Julian> will need to figure out what'
  124. # [14:57] <Julian> ...what's going on
  125. # [14:58] <Hixie> that's part 5
  126. # [14:58] <jgraham> I don't see how splitting parts that have fundamental dependencies on each other will allow either to evolve without the same consideration for the other that they are given today
  127. # [14:59] <Hixie> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-httpbis-p6-cache-05.txt is the part i am talking about
  128. # [15:00] <Julian> sorry, I was confused.
  129. # [15:00] <Julian> 5 != 6
  130. # [15:00] <jgraham> And there are many parts of HTML (in particular the language definition and the processing of the language) that are already irrevesibly cojoined so trying to impose an artificial seperation at this stage has no practical effect on our ability to avoid interdependencies
  131. # [15:00] * MikeSmith is now known as ChristianFletcher
  132. # [15:01] <Julian> so coming back to your question
  133. # [15:01] * ChristianFletcher is now known as FletcherChristian
  134. # [15:01] <Julian> httpbis splits into layers. each layer has headers associated with it.
  135. # [15:02] <Julian> the equivalent would be to have separate HTML specs, for, let's say, scripting or form submission
  136. # [15:02] <Julian> of course more granularity would be possible, but as I said before, there needs to be a balance
  137. # [15:02] <Hixie> the Web platform is split into several specs. Web DOM Core, XMLHttpRequest, HTML5, CSS, JS, etc.
  138. # [15:03] <Julian> the current size of HTML5 clearly indicates it's out of balance
  139. # [15:03] <Hixie> viewing HTML5 as a whole, instead of as a part of a whole, is wrong
  140. # [15:03] <Hixie> hey, html5 is only a little bigger than twice httpbis
  141. # [15:03] <Julian> in particular because it contains lots of stuff most *authors* of HTML never need to know
  142. # [15:03] <Hixie> sure, we definitely need a view of html5 that hides stuff that doesn't apply to authors
  143. # [15:04] * FletcherChristian adds the unwelcome-but-actually-supported-on-the-client-side XSLT to the list
  144. # [15:04] <Hixie> oh a lot can be added to the list :-)
  145. # [15:04] <Hixie> SVG, MathML, DOM Events...
  146. # [15:04] <Hixie> the list goes on
  147. # [15:04] <Hixie> XML!
  148. # [15:05] <FletcherChristian> yeah, but not a lot else that's actually supported in all four major browser engines
  149. # [15:05] * FletcherChristian is now known as MikeSmith
  150. # [15:05] <Hixie> anyway
  151. # [15:05] * MikeSmith says sorry, FletcherChristian thing was relevant to another channel
  152. # [15:05] <Hixie> it's six hours past my bed time
  153. # [15:05] <Julian> Mike: there are lots of people who like client-side XSLT...
  154. # [15:06] <Hixie> there are a lot of people who like RDF, too :-)
  155. # [15:06] <Hixie> nn
  156. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> Julian: yeah, I know. A lot of people that like having it as a choice at least.
  157. # [15:08] * MikeSmith tries to see how relevant RDF is to a discussion about technologies that are (or should be) considered part of the Web platform
  158. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> if being an open standard and being implemented across all four major browsers does not merit it being on the short list of what makes up the platform, I'm wondering what the criteria should be instead...
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  162. # [15:50] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-geolocation/2008Nov/0197.html
  163. # [15:50] <pimpbot> Title: Re: Position Heading Questions? from Andrei Popescu on 2008-11-20 (public-geolocation@w3.org from November 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  164. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> "There are plenty of use cases that require orientation but do not care where on Earth the device is (games, UI, etc). Adding orientation to this API would force anyone who just wants to provide orientation, to also implement geolocation."
  165. # [16:08] * Joins: tH (Rob@129.11.83.58)
  166. # [16:25] <DanC> hmm... in theory, for today's telcon, I don't *need* to read any email that came out after the agenda. but I suspect I should. MikeSmith , are you caught up?
  167. # [16:25] <DanC> any particular messages you'd nominate?
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  169. # [16:37] <Philip> Someone needs to extend SMTP so people on mailing lists can mark posts as being significant and worth reading
  170. # [16:38] <Philip> (in a way that correlates your opinions anonymously against other people's, so it can find likeminded people whose opinions you are more likely to trust)
  171. # [16:39] <jgraham> Philip: There I was thinking that you were going to rpopose replacing the mailing list with slashcode
  172. # [16:40] <hsivonen> Philip: I find Message-Id and In-Reply-To sufficient on public-html
  173. # [16:40] * Joins: billmason (bmason@69.30.57.41)
  174. # [16:41] <Philip> jgraham: That kind of system doesn't work when there are multiple groups with completely opposite views
  175. # [16:42] <Philip> and it drives away the minority opinions, which isn't really what we want
  176. # [16:42] <jgraham> Like on /. you mean?
  177. # [16:42] <jgraham> ;)
  178. # [16:43] <jgraham> Anyway you wouldn't need to extend SMTP necessarily; the rating information could be distributed out-of-band
  179. # [16:43] <hsivonen> it's distributed on IRC
  180. # [16:44] <Philip> jgraham: It's a good approach for building a popular community-based web site, because there you want to reinforce the majority's opinions because that gets you more page hits :-)
  181. # [16:45] <jgraham> Philip: You could say the same about a process that a) it is desirable to converge and b) requires consensus for convergence
  182. # [16:46] <Philip> jgraham: That's missing that c) it is desirable to converge on the optimal technical solution
  183. # [16:47] <DanC> the premise of chartering a WG is that any solution in the chartered scope is acceptable; i.e. the novel design work is done and it's time to flip coins and converge the market. at least that's one model.
  184. # [16:47] <Philip> and it's more valuable to have a good solution that many people disagree with, than to have a bad solution that everybody agrees with
  185. # [16:48] <Philip> so trying to enforce a monoculture within the group is potentially harmful
  186. # [16:48] <DanC> it's OK to have a certain level of disagreement as long as people *accept* it and use it. if they reject it altogether, you don't have a standard
  187. # [16:48] <jgraham> Philip: it is impossible to measure c) and a good solution that many people disagree with is by definition not consensus
  188. # [16:49] <Philip> jgraham: Life would be boring if we could measure everything and decide quantitatively :-)
  189. # [16:49] <Philip> jgraham: and I agree that there's conflict with point b)
  190. # [16:50] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30)
  191. # [16:51] <jgraham> DanC: What is "it" in this context? The final standard?
  192. # [16:51] <Philip> I've totally forgotten what my point was, or whether I even had a point, but anyway I don't think the W3C should switch to Slashcode
  193. # [16:52] * jgraham doesn't either
  194. # [16:52] <Philip> Hooray, we have consensus
  195. # [16:52] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.253.193.147) (Ping timeout)
  196. # [16:52] <Philip> and I'll /ignore anyone who disagrees
  197. # [16:53] <DanC> sorry, jgraham , can't tell which "it" you mean
  198. # [16:53] <DanC> the W3C systems team is looking at community moderation systems. so this isn't an entirely theoretical conversation
  199. # [16:53] <jgraham> Anyway, I think your original point was that it would be good to prioritise mail based on whether people with a similar set of criteria think it is important mail or not
  200. # [16:54] <jgraham> Which seems quite sensible and not impossible
  201. # [16:55] <Philip> The pragmatic solution would be for someone to bookmark their favourite posts on del.icio.us or whatever the cool people are using nowadays, because that's just as good and much easier to implement
  202. # [16:55] <Philip> s/someone/several people (so you could choose who to follow)/
  203. # [16:56] <DanC> I'm a pretty happy delicious user... yeah... something like that
  204. # [16:56] <MikeSmith> DanC: Roy Fielding's latest message
  205. # [16:56] <DanC> the agenda sent out by the chair serves that purpose in some WGs, but not at this scale
  206. # [16:57] <jgraham> it would be fun o be able to give mail a star rating and to somehow share that information (anonymously) in such a way that other people who tended to rate things in the same way as me would use ratings I (and others) had provided to prioritise their unread mail
  207. # [16:57] * DanC reads Fielding Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:58:00 -0800 ... wishes MUAs gave easier access to message-id...
  208. # [16:57] <Philip> Anonymity seems a very hard problem
  209. # [16:57] <Philip> (See e.g. AOL)
  210. # [16:58] <jgraham> Anonymity is I guess strictly impossible if you need to group the ratings by submitter
  211. # [16:58] <Philip> Why?
  212. # [16:58] <jgraham> But maybe you can do it without identifiable information
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  215. # [16:59] <Philip> I'd consider it anonymous if you could still identify people, as long as you couldn't tell who that corresponded to in reality
  216. # [17:00] <jgraham> Philip: Well at the least you need to associate each rating with a user id of some sort in order to group ratings by submitter
  217. # [17:00] <Philip> That's what I'd consider anonymous
  218. # [17:00] <jgraham> Given access to that data you might be able to infer who was who
  219. # [17:01] <Philip> but if you see that user ID 9327 always votes in favour of all posts by whoever@example.com, then you'd probably be able to infer the identity, so that's what we'd need to avoid
  220. # [17:02] <Philip> but it's a probabilistic thing, so it would be acceptable if you could sort of guess it was whoever@example.com but weren't really sure at all
  221. # [17:02] <jgraham> Well it depends if the probability is 0.01 or 0.99
  222. # [17:02] <Philip> (e.g. maybe it could be one of several people, or maybe it could be some fake AI user that is pretending to be a specific person)
  223. # [17:03] <Philip> (and you could add some uniform randomness to ratings, so it's hard to make sense of a single person's ratings but it would average out enough that the system still worked)
  224. # [17:04] <Philip> Sounds like a fun thing for information theorists to work on
  225. # [17:04] <MikeSmith> as somebody who spent part of my life working in product-dev orgs for both e-mail infrastructure software and browsers, I have to say I find the standards and implementations around the e-mail software a lot less messy than the comparable state around browser technologies
  226. # [17:05] <DanC> anonymity looks awfully expensive to achieve and not all that important, provided people are civil when they disagree
  227. # [17:05] <Philip> That's a very big "provided" :-)
  228. # [17:05] <jgraham> DanC: I think people might be offended to discover all their mail was being rated as uninteresting
  229. # [17:06] <DanC> seriously, MikeSmith ? parsing email is a black art. I don't use the IETF specs at all; djb's stuff is a goldmine. and jwz's stuff.
  230. # [17:06] <MikeSmith> I think some people we know don't even understand what "civil when they disagree" means
  231. # [17:06] * Philip is reminded of the story about the British National Party's membership list being leaked, and people being upset about it, and other people wondering why anyone would join a political party that they're ashamed for anyone to know they've joined
  232. # [17:07] <MikeSmith> DanC: I dunno, I can't see anything similar in e-mail the comprehensive broken-by-designedness of the DOM
  233. # [17:07] <MikeSmith> Philip: for the chicks and the booze and the parties
  234. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> it's a "Party" after all
  235. # [17:08] <DanC> jgraham, I'd consider it a *feature* if more people realized how uninteresting their mail is to most of the readership
  236. # [17:09] <DanC> fielding wants a poll conducted without W3C accounts. hmm... are w3c accounts still scary these days?
  237. # [17:10] <jgraham> I guess it would be a feature if they realised that continual replies to the same thread with no new information were not helpful
  238. # [17:10] <Philip> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/message/%3C31fb000f0806191456k41ed1d8bpdb120d4420c6b5bd%40mail.gmail.com%3E - parsing email causes practical problems
  239. # [17:10] <jgraham> Indeed I would find it helpful for when I do that :)
  240. # [17:10] <pimpbot> Title: HTML issues list Re: [whatwg] What should the value attribute be for multi-file upload controls in WF2? (at canvex.lazyilluminati.com)
  241. # [17:10] <Philip> (That comes from Hixie's coe, which I guess uses some Perl library to parse .mbox emails)
  242. # [17:10] <Philip> *code
  243. # [17:11] <jgraham> Philip: Maybe it is just the answer to the question posed in the title?
  244. # [17:11] <anne> MikeSmith, e-mail is a lot simpler, no dynamic stuff :)
  245. # [17:12] <Philip> jgraham: Then what is http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/message/%3C196FC0416304514B89B50ED2FF17A2402F05AB%40BE08.exg3.exghost.com%3E ?
  246. # [17:12] <pimpbot> Title: HTML issues list Re: [whatwg] Geolocation in the browser (at canvex.lazyilluminati.com)
  247. # [17:12] <jgraham> :-p
  248. # [17:12] <Philip> Does pimpbot have a http://192.168.0.1/ ?
  249. # [17:12] <hsivonen> the think I keep wondering about is why on earth people want to reuse the multipart stuff from mail instead of using zip files
  250. # [17:12] <Philip> Hmm, guess not
  251. # [17:12] <hsivonen> s/think/thing/
  252. # [17:13] <Philip> I don't think you can stream zip, which seems a problem
  253. # [17:13] <hsivonen> also, comments in email addresses is a pretty serious WTF from the mail side
  254. # [17:14] <DanC> comments in email addresses... yeah... that's where djb's stuff is a goldmine. did you realize that if you parse email address headers *backwards*, they follow a nice grammar?
  255. # [17:14] <Philip> (unless the old multi-floppy pkunzip made me insert disks 1, n, 1, 2, ..., n for some reason other than a fundamental inability to stream)
  256. # [17:14] * hsivonen has never tried parsing headers backwards
  257. # [17:15] * Philip remembers gsnedders mentioning something about parsing XML backwards
  258. # [17:15] <DanC> MikeSmith, fielding's point about letting ping stand on its own brings me back to requirements process. I'd sure like to crack that nut. I suppose fielding's point is that the simplest requirements process is to put new proposals in separate docs.
  259. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> anne: e-mail gots it own set of big problems a.k.a. business opportunities. problem I found was that software executives running the business don't understand how to address those problems/opportunities
  260. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> or just didn't think it was worth the effort
  261. # [17:16] <MikeSmith> e.g., former CEO described market for e-mail infrastructure software as a "zero-billion dollar market"
  262. # [17:16] <MikeSmith> DanC: I encourage you to crack some nuts
  263. # [17:17] <hsivonen> Where did Fielding suggest a poll?
  264. # [17:17] <DanC> Subject: Re: An HTML language specification vs. a browser specification
  265. # [17:17] <DanC> Archived-At: <http://www.w3.org/mid/8DBBF871-984F-4D24-B8FA-E440A4A3347A@gbiv.com>
  266. # [17:17] <pimpbot> Title: Re: An HTML language specification vs. a browser specification from Roy T. Fielding on 2008-11-20 (public-html@w3.org from November 2008) (at www.w3.org)
  267. # [17:18] <gsnedders> Philip: LMX
  268. # [17:18] <gsnedders> Philip: http://trac.adiumx.com/wiki/LMXParser
  269. # [17:18] <hsivonen> DanC: thanks
  270. # [17:18] <pimpbot> Title: LMXParser - Adium - Trac (at trac.adiumx.com)
  271. # [17:18] <gsnedders> Philip: Actually, http://boredzo.org/lmx/
  272. # [17:18] <pimpbot> Title: LMX: A reverse-XML parser (at boredzo.org)
  273. # [17:19] <Philip> They should have called it ⅃MX
  274. # [17:19] <DanC> former CEO, along with most of us, evidently didn't realize that email *eyeballs* are worth quite a bit. hotmail was nothing more than freebsd and good marketing
  275. # [17:19] <Philip> Oh, except my console font doesn't have that character
  276. # [17:19] <hsivonen> DanC: perhaps before starting W3C polls, it would be productive if Roy examined software available from Apache.org to see if they match theory
  277. # [17:20] <hsivonen> Apache.org has an HTTP client library that can be configured to deviate from specs for Web compatibility
  278. # [17:20] <Philip> Be careful about that - he might try to patch it so that they do match the theory
  279. # [17:21] <hsivonen> Philip: good point. I'll refrain from giving more examples of what Apache.org ships and that I'd like for them to continue shipping.
  280. # [17:22] <rubys> Apache doesn't have despots (benevolent or otherwise) that can unilaterally make such changes
  281. # [17:23] <jgraham> gsnedders: So presumably LXML reports all of a malformed document after the error?
  282. # [17:23] <jgraham> s/LXML/LMX/
  283. # [17:23] <Philip> rubys: It still has people who could argue convincingly that what someone considers a feature is actually a bug
  284. # [17:24] <rubys> so does the whatwg
  285. # [17:24] <rubys> your point? :-)
  286. # [17:24] <Philip> so if you're one of the people who considers it a feature, it's best not to bring it up in conversation with someone who might fix it :-)
  287. # [17:24] <rubys> users of the tool wouldn't stand for that
  288. # [17:25] <gsnedders> jgraham: No idea
  289. # [17:25] <gsnedders> jgraham: Quite possibly
  290. # [17:25] * DanC mulls over roy's overall point about feedback being ignored
  291. # [17:26] <DanC> I'm sure Hixie can document that it wasn't ignored; he just disagreed.
  292. # [17:26] * hsivonen points out that it's quite reasonable not to count "nonsense", "crap" and things of that nature as actionable feedback
  293. # [17:26] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@71.204.144.136)
  294. # [17:27] <DanC> Roy's point about people tuning out is the one that I feel most obliged to do something about.
  295. # [17:28] <rubys> I'll affirm that I'm an instance of Roy's point
  296. # [17:29] <Julian> so am I
  297. # [17:29] <rubys> MikeSmith's draft and Roy's participation caused me to peek in here to see if there is hope
  298. # [17:29] <Julian> (or actually, close being close to it)
  299. # [17:29] <Julian> I think Mike's draft is a very good starting point for making progress
  300. # [17:30] <Julian> and a very cool hack (in the positive sense)
  301. # [17:30] <rubys> it was a stroke of genius
  302. # [17:33] <jgraham> Just to provide the alternative view, I worry that performing a heart transplant on the spec may lead to significant complications, regardless of the technical achievement involved, and that continually discussing meta-issues is merely leading to the actual progress happening elsewhere
  303. # [17:34] <hsivonen> I think Mike's draft is indeed a very cool hack in the positive sense, but I still don't think it's a good idea make it normative.
  304. # [17:35] <gsnedders> If the editor is unwilling to edit multiple documents, what does the WG deciding to have multiple documents help us with? The editor can perfectly easily leave the WG.
  305. # [17:35] <hsivonen> If it was someone else's schema, I'd be pretty annoyed at another implementation getting enshrined as normative.
  306. # [17:36] <Philip> Making the machine-readable input be normative would probably be better (regardless of whether it's actually a good idea) than making the formatted HTML transformation of that input be normative
  307. # [17:36] * Quits: anne (annevk@77.163.243.203) (Ping timeout)
  308. # [17:36] <hsivonen> also, some things there are now purely artifacts of me working around issues with Jing's error recovery and error messages
  309. # [17:37] <Philip> gsnedders: It could be a proof-by-demonstration that having multiple documents is actually helpful and not too costly, resulting in the editor being happy to edit those documents
  310. # [17:38] <hsivonen> As for splitting the spec, I still don't understand why people who want smaller chunks don't read the multipage version on whatwg.org
  311. # [17:38] <Julian> gsnedders: which is why it would be good if the document actually had multiple editors in practice, not only in theory
  312. # [17:39] <gsnedders> Julian: Who?
  313. # [17:39] <Julian> for a start, the ones listed as editors :-)
  314. # [17:39] <gsnedders> Julian: We still need to get these other editors from somewhere. Nobody has put themselves forward
  315. # [17:39] <jgraham> I also tend to think that the type of split being proposed is a result of selection bias in the type of people who get involved with standards rather than in solid practical benefits for the majority of beneficiaries of the spec
  316. # [17:39] <gsnedders> Julian: We can't force him to edit.
  317. # [17:40] <Julian> I personally think that somebody who doesn't edit the spec (or at least intends to) shouldn't shouldn't be listed as editor
  318. # [17:41] <Philip> gsnedders: We could offer him $10,000 to edit it
  319. # [17:41] <gsnedders> Julian: I don't either
  320. # [17:42] <Julian> it would be cool if some of the W3C members who actually has sufficient budget (Microsoft? IBM? Apple? SAP? Oracle?) could be convinced to sponsor somebody.
  321. # [17:43] <gsnedders> Sadly, I doubt that will happen
  322. # [17:43] <hsivonen> Julian: it seems to me that people who might be qualified are busy
  323. # [17:43] <Julian> I wonder why.
  324. # [17:44] <Julian> ...or underfunded
  325. # [17:44] <Julian> ...or not looking forward to have to deal how this WG operates.
  326. # [17:44] <rubys> I could easily justify my participation at IBM's expense, but given the current enviroment (hat tip to Roy's email), I chose not to.
  327. # [17:44] <Julian> .deal with how...
  328. # [17:44] <Julian> see?
  329. # [17:49] * Philip doesn't quite understand why people are saying the parsing algorithm depends on the DOM - it just seems to use a generic tree-of-elements-with-attributes
  330. # [17:49] <Philip> e.g. it says "Insert last node into node, first removing it from its previous parent node if any.", not "Execute node.appendChild(lastNode)"
  331. # [17:50] <gsnedders> html5lib has been given several times as an example impl without a DOM, yet peopel argue it still
  332. # [17:51] <Philip> That's not necessarily an example of a conforming implementation of the spec's parser algorithm
  333. # [17:52] <Philip> If the output of the parser algorithm is a DOM, you can't implement it without a DOM, and if you do write an implementation that doesn't produce a DOM then it's not quite implementing the spec
  334. # [17:52] <hsivonen> Philip: you've probably noticed that implementors haven't complained about that point.
  335. # [17:53] <Philip> hsivonen: Implementors often don't seem to mind ignoring what the spec actually says, and doing what makes sense instead
  336. # [17:53] <Julian> ...*people* have complained about it though.
  337. # [17:54] * Philip has spent enough time complaining about bits of the canvas spec that lots of implementors must have read and implemented without caring that the spec didn't make sense
  338. # [17:54] <hsivonen> Julian: frankly, I think we should listen to parser implementors on concerns related to presenting the algorithm definition
  339. # [17:55] <hsivonen> Julian: it's not like people in general are going to step through the algorithm when they author pages
  340. # [17:56] <hsivonen> Philip: there's a good change that something about the parsing algorithm doesn't make sense, but the general approach how it has been defined is not it
  341. # [18:00] * Philip presumes that the lack of implementors complaining about major issues is partly due to selection bias, because people who complain about major issues aren't going to try implementing it now
  342. # [18:00] <hsivonen> s/change/chance/
  343. # [18:01] <hsivonen> Philip: those who complain don't need to implement it--just like they aren't implementing XML parsers themselves
  344. # [18:01] * Joins: deane (opera@121.72.185.123)
  345. # [18:02] <hsivonen> afk
  346. # [18:02] <Philip> hsivonen: But they might want to implement it, even though they don't strictly need to
  347. # [18:03] <rubys> I'd just like to get html5 parsing into the various languages much like it is today with xml. At the moment there really is no "out of the box" solutions for html5.
  348. # [18:03] <Philip> Maybe they're using a different language, or maybe they want code they can maintain themselves, or maybe they can write it much more efficiently for their particular uses
  349. # [18:03] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52)
  350. # [18:04] * Joins: smedero (smedero@192.223.6.251)
  351. # [18:05] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.106)
  352. # [18:05] <Philip> (which are presumably similar reasons to why so many people write their own XML parsers)
  353. # [18:05] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  354. # [18:05] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, this is html
  355. # [18:05] <Zakim> ok, ChrisWilson; that matches HTML_WG()12:00PM
  356. # [18:05] <ChrisWilson> zakim, who is on the phone?
  357. # [18:05] <Zakim> On the phone I see James_Craig, ??P6, Sam, [Microsoft], Shawn_Medero
  358. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> trackbot start meeting
  359. # [18:05] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, Microsoft is me
  360. # [18:05] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
  361. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
  362. # [18:06] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  363. # [18:06] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  364. # [18:06] <dsinger> zakim, james_craig is dsinger
  365. # [18:06] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-irc
  366. # [18:06] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  367. # [18:06] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  368. # [18:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  369. # [18:06] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
  370. # [18:06] <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
  371. # [18:06] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
  372. # [18:06] <trackbot> Date: 20 November 2008
  373. # [18:06] <Zakim> -??P6
  374. # [18:06] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-work
  375. # [18:06] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  376. # [18:06] <Zakim> +DanC
  377. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +49.251.280.aaaa
  378. # [18:06] <Julian> Zakim, +49.251.280.aaaa is me
  379. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Julian; got it
  380. # [18:06] * DanC Zakim, who's on the phone?
  381. # [18:06] * Zakim sees on the phone: dsinger, Sam, ChrisWilson, Shawn_Medero, DanC, Julian
  382. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
  383. # [18:07] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  384. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Mike
  385. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute Mike
  386. # [18:07] <Zakim> Mike should now be muted
  387. # [18:07] * Joins: adrianba (adrianba@131.107.0.104)
  388. # [18:08] <DanC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2008OctDec/0007.html
  389. # [18:08] <pimpbot> Title: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2008-11-20 from Chris Wilson on 2008-11-19 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from October to December 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  390. # [18:08] <ChrisWilson> chair: ChrisWilson
  391. # [18:08] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  392. # [18:08] * DanC is scribing the TAG telcon in an hour, so not a good candidate
  393. # [18:08] <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
  394. # [18:08] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC
  395. # [18:08] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, Microsoft is AdrianBa
  396. # [18:08] <Zakim> +AdrianBa; got it
  397. # [18:08] <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
  398. # [18:08] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC
  399. # [18:08] <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
  400. # [18:08] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Mike (muted)
  401. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2008OctDec/0007.html
  402. # [18:08] <pimpbot> Title: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2008-11-20 from Chris Wilson on 2008-11-19 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from October to December 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  403. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> OK
  404. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> scribenick: MikeSmith
  405. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith
  406. # [18:09] <ChrisWilson> Any additions to the agenda?
  407. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> Topic: Agenda review?
  408. # [18:09] <Julian> +1 for ping
  409. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> s/review?/review/
  410. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> DanC: suggest adding @ping to agenda
  411. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> ... buried in message from Roy Fielding posting recently
  412. # [18:10] <ChrisWilson> agenda+ Authoring guide
  413. # [18:10] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
  414. # [18:10] <DanC> issue-1?
  415. # [18:10] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-1
  416. # [18:10] <trackbot> ISSUE-1 -- hyperlink auditing requires use of unsafe HTTP method -- RAISED
  417. # [18:10] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/1
  418. # [18:10] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-1 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  419. # [18:10] <ChrisWilson> agenda+ HTTPbis
  420. # [18:10] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
  421. # [18:10] <ChrisWilson> agenda+ HTML integration for HTTP auth
  422. # [18:10] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
  423. # [18:10] <DanC> wrong one...
  424. # [18:10] <DanC> issue-2?
  425. # [18:10] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-2
  426. # [18:10] <trackbot> ISSUE-2 -- Practicability of UI requirements for hyperlink auditing -- RAISED
  427. # [18:10] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/2
  428. # [18:10] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-2 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  429. # [18:10] <ChrisWilson> agenda+ tracker review
  430. # [18:10] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
  431. # [18:11] <ChrisWilson> agenda+ discuss ping
  432. # [18:11] * Zakim notes agendum 5 added
  433. # [18:11] * DanC goes afk for a bit...
  434. # [18:11] * DanC Zakim, mute me
  435. # [18:11] * Zakim DanC should now be muted
  436. # [18:11] <smedero> there are three different ISSUEs on ping in the tracker... though none of them address the more fundamental "should we be doing this" question...
  437. # [18:11] * MikeSmith wonders if anybody else on the call or IRC has other suggestions for additions to agenda
  438. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> going... going... gone
  439. # [18:11] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 1
  440. # [18:11] <Zakim> agendum 1. "Authoring guide" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
  441. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  442. # [18:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  443. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson: MikeSmith, you suggested talking about the authoring guide...
  444. # [18:12] <ChrisWilson> Lachy, did you have any updates on the authoring guide?
  445. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> Lachy, you around?
  446. # [18:12] <Lachy> not yet
  447. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
  448. # [18:12] <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
  449. # [18:12] <Lachy> well, I started updating the introduction based on gsnedders' feedback at TPAC
  450. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute Mike
  451. # [18:12] <Zakim> Mike should no longer be muted
  452. # [18:13] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, Mike is MikeSmith
  453. # [18:13] <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
  454. # [18:13] <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item 1
  455. # [18:13] <Zakim> agendum 1, Authoring guide, closed
  456. # [18:13] <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  457. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> Zakim, umute me
  458. # [18:13] <Zakim> 2. HTTPbis [from ChrisWilson]
  459. # [18:13] <Lachy> but now that I'm back in Oslo, I can start working on it more
  460. # [18:13] <Zakim> I don't understand 'umute me', MikeSmith
  461. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
  462. # [18:13] <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
  463. # [18:13] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 2
  464. # [18:13] <Zakim> agendum 2. "HTTPbis" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
  465. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> Lachy, cool
  466. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> Lachy, karl gonna be able to help next month too
  467. # [18:13] * Joins: Joshue (Joshue@62.77.173.27)
  468. # [18:13] <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
  469. # [18:14] <Lachy> has this telcon just started?
  470. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson: Julian, any updates about your work last week that relate to HTML?
  471. # [18:14] <DanC> MikeSmith, you said something about Lachy being more available after selectors API work cools down... ah... Lachy is here.
  472. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> Lachy, yeah
  473. # [18:14] <Lachy> I'll call in
  474. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> Julian: work is progressing nicely
  475. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> ... is there anything in particular that you want to know about?
  476. # [18:15] <DanC> q+ to note some IETF liaison requests
  477. # [18:15] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  478. # [18:15] <DanC> ack me
  479. # [18:15] * Zakim unmutes DanC
  480. # [18:15] <ChrisWilson> ack DanC
  481. # [18:15] <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note some IETF liaison requests
  482. # [18:15] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  483. # [18:15] <Lachy> DanC, yeah, Selectors API has now been published as an LC again and will be going to CR very soon, since there isn't much to do with it now. So I should have plenty of time to spend on the authoring guide
  484. # [18:15] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  485. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> ... in theory what we're doing should effect any spec that relies on it, [because of teh nature of the work we doing just being to refine the existing spec]
  486. # [18:15] <Zakim> +??P19
  487. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> DanC: somebody passed some info along to an IETF area director
  488. # [18:16] <Lachy> Zakim, I am ??P19
  489. # [18:16] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
  490. # [18:16] <Julian> DanC: so that probably was about WebSockets?
  491. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> ... about HTML5 spec [encroaching on HTTP territory]
  492. # [18:16] <DanC> concern about a profile of HTTP being included in the HTML spec ... WebSockets
  493. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson: DanC, any futher acttion to add to that?
  494. # [18:16] <DanC> websockets should prolly get added to http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/2
  495. # [18:16] <pimpbot> Title: Details on Product HTML Principles/Requirements - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  496. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> DanC: I have not cracked the requirements-process nut, but that one should prolly get added
  497. # [18:17] <takkaria> websockets isn't a profile of HTTP, though
  498. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson: I tihnk we need to go through all of those again
  499. # [18:17] <Julian> for the record -- httpbis status -- http://tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/
  500. # [18:17] * Joins: cyns (61713c0e@128.30.52.43)
  501. # [18:17] <pimpbot> Title: Httpbis Status Pages (at tools.ietf.org)
  502. # [18:17] <DanC> it's at least perceived as such a profile, takkaria
  503. # [18:17] * Joshue zakim ain't playing nice
  504. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> ... goes back to the long-standing topic about what to do about [aligning the work with teh charter]
  505. # [18:18] <ChrisWilson> zakim, agenda?\
  506. # [18:18] <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
  507. # [18:18] <Zakim> 2. HTTPbis [from ChrisWilson]
  508. # [18:18] <Zakim> 3. HTML integration for HTTP auth [from ChrisWilson]
  509. # [18:18] <Zakim> 4. tracker review [from ChrisWilson]
  510. # [18:18] <Zakim> 5. discuss ping [from ChrisWilson]
  511. # [18:18] <Zakim> +??P30
  512. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> Julian
  513. # [18:18] <Joshue> zakim, ??P30 is Joshue
  514. # [18:18] <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
  515. # [18:18] <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item 2
  516. # [18:18] <Zakim> agendum 2, HTTPbis, closed
  517. # [18:18] <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  518. # [18:18] <Zakim> 3. HTML integration for HTTP auth [from ChrisWilson]
  519. # [18:18] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 3\
  520. # [18:18] <Zakim> '3\\' does not match any agenda item, ChrisWilson
  521. # [18:18] <DanC> (hmm... give myself an action to add an issue, or add the issue here/now? is "WebSockets requirement?" enough of an issue description?)
  522. # [18:18] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 3
  523. # [18:18] <Zakim> agendum 3. "HTML integration for HTTP auth" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
  524. # [18:18] * Lachy will there be any discussion of Mike's draft in this telcon?
  525. # [18:18] <DanC> (guess I'll go with an action...)
  526. # [18:18] <ChrisWilson> DanC - add the issue
  527. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> Julian oh Julian - update on the HTTP auth topic?
  528. # [18:18] <DanC> ok
  529. # [18:19] <DanC> ISSUE: WebSockets requirement? in scope?
  530. # [18:19] * trackbot noticed an ISSUE. Trying to create it.
  531. # [18:19] <trackbot> Created ISSUE-62 - WebSockets requirement? in scope? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/62/edit .
  532. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  533. # [18:19] <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger, Sam, ChrisWilson, Shawn_Medero, DanC, Julian, MikeSmith (muted), AdrianBa, Cynthia_Shelly, Lachy, Joshue
  534. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson: update on HTML integration point with HTTP auth issue?
  535. # [18:19] <DanC> issue-13?
  536. # [18:19] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-13
  537. # [18:19] <trackbot> ISSUE-13 -- Handling HTTP status 401 responses / User Agent Authentication Forms -- RAISED
  538. # [18:19] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/13
  539. # [18:19] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-13 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  540. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> Julian: I think discussion during the TPAC showed that the majority of the HTML WG is not interested in working on it
  541. # [18:20] <Joshue> zakim, mute me
  542. # [18:20] <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
  543. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> DanC: I don't think that Hixie is convinced that it's bad enough to do something about
  544. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> ... I'm on the fence because I've not seen any proposed solution that I know how to deply
  545. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> s/deply/deploy/
  546. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> DanC: one approach is to say that we don't plan to tackle it in this version fo HTML5
  547. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson: we can just leave it on the issue pile...
  548. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> DanC: leaving it where it is is the default
  549. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> ... question is, is it time to decide to postpone it now [til a later version of HTML, if at all]
  550. # [18:22] * Joins: adele (adele@24.7.125.179)
  551. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> DanC: rubys, thoughts on this?
  552. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> rubys: not really
  553. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> DanC: adrianba ?
  554. # [18:23] <rubys> Zakim, sam is rubys
  555. # [18:23] <Zakim> +rubys; got it
  556. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> adrianba: [expressing that postponing it seems reasonable]
  557. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> DanC: if we do postpone it, we should do it noisily
  558. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> DanC: any useful venue to make noise?
  559. # [18:24] <Julian> other than the mailing list?
  560. # [18:24] <Lachy> I think it should definitely be postponed at least until there is some real proposal to move forward with, but it seems like it's out of scope for this group
  561. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> Julian: [mentions that certain proposed solutions work fine in browsers, but not, e.g., in feed readers]
  562. # [18:25] <DanC> . ACTION DanC: propose to postpone ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status by explaining the problem, noting the lack of solutions, and asking if postponing is acceptable
  563. # [18:26] <DanC> ACTION DanC: propose to postpone ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status by explaining the problem, noting the lack of solutions, and asking if postponing is acceptable
  564. # [18:26] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  565. # [18:26] * RRSAgent records action 1
  566. # [18:26] <trackbot> Created ACTION-86 - Propose to postpone ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status by explaining the problem, noting the lack of solutions, and asking if postponing is acceptable [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-11-27].
  567. # [18:26] <DanC> action-86 due 2008-12-31
  568. # [18:26] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-86.
  569. # [18:26] <trackbot> ACTION-86 Propose to postpone ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status by explaining the problem, noting the lack of solutions, and asking if postponing is acceptable due date now 2008-12-31
  570. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson: just saying I don't know what set of people especially care about it
  571. # [18:26] <Julian> fine with me, as long as we agree it *is* an issue
  572. # [18:26] <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item 3
  573. # [18:26] <Zakim> agendum 3, HTML integration for HTTP auth, closed
  574. # [18:26] <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  575. # [18:26] <Zakim> 4. tracker review [from ChrisWilson]
  576. # [18:26] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 4
  577. # [18:26] <Zakim> agendum 4. "tracker review" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
  578. # [18:27] <ChrisWilson> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
  579. # [18:27] <pimpbot> Title: Input for Agenda Planning for the HTML Weekly - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  580. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> agenda+ @headers update from Joshue
  581. # [18:27] * Zakim notes agendum 6 added
  582. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  583. # [18:27] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  584. # [18:27] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 20 Nov 2008 (at www.w3.org)
  585. # [18:28] <ChrisWilson> action-78 - I will close this once I've read through Ian's edits
  586. # [18:28] <ChrisWilson> action-80?
  587. # [18:28] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-80
  588. # [18:28] <trackbot> ACTION-80 -- Chris Wilson to ian Hickson to write an assessment of possible sections to split out and estimated hours of work -- due 2008-11-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  589. # [18:28] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/80
  590. # [18:28] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-80 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  591. # [18:28] <MikeSmith> action-78?
  592. # [18:28] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-78
  593. # [18:28] <trackbot> ACTION-78 -- Chris Wilson to suggestion text for 1.4.4 -- due 2008-10-31 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  594. # [18:28] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/78
  595. # [18:28] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-78 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  596. # [18:29] <DanC> action-78: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0127.html
  597. # [18:29] * trackbot attempting to add comment notes to ACTION-78.
  598. # [18:29] <trackbot> ACTION-78 Suggestion text for 1.4.4 notes added
  599. # [18:29] <pimpbot> Title: HTML5 Specification - List of sections and corresponding work estimates from Ian Hickson on 2008-10-27 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  600. # [18:29] <smedero> Zakim, mute Shawn_Medero
  601. # [18:29] <Zakim> Shawn_Medero should now be muted
  602. # [18:30] <DanC> ACTION-34 due 31 Dec 2008
  603. # [18:30] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-34.
  604. # [18:30] <trackbot> ACTION-34 Prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for publication in some way, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference due date now 31 Dec 2008
  605. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> Lachy: about authoring guide, at the f2f we talked about end of December as a milestone
  606. # [18:30] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@92.228.83.9) (Ping timeout)
  607. # [18:30] * MikeSmith says OK
  608. # [18:30] * Joins: Lionheart (robin@66.57.69.65)
  609. # [18:30] <DanC> -1 telcon next week
  610. # [18:31] <ChrisWilson> action-62?
  611. # [18:31] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-62
  612. # [18:31] <trackbot> ACTION-62 -- Michael(tm) Smith to get XHTML 2 WG response to edits around name of XML serialization -- due 2008-10-02 -- OPEN
  613. # [18:31] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/62
  614. # [18:31] * MikeSmith says there's not Thanskgving in Japan
  615. # [18:31] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-62 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  616. # [18:31] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
  617. # [18:31] <Zakim> MikeSmith should no longer be muted
  618. # [18:31] <DanC> action-62 due 4 Dec 2008
  619. # [18:31] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-62.
  620. # [18:31] <trackbot> ACTION-62 get XHTML 2 WG response to edits around name of XML serialization due date now 4 Dec 2008
  621. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: I'll follow up with Roland
  622. # [18:33] * Joshue action item 84 should cover it
  623. # [18:33] <Joshue> zakim, unmute me
  624. # [18:33] <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
  625. # [18:33] <DanC> action-84?
  626. # [18:33] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-84
  627. # [18:33] <trackbot> ACTION-84 -- Joshue O Connor to prepare status report on @headers discussion by next week -- due 2008-11-20 -- OPEN
  628. # [18:33] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/84
  629. # [18:33] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-84 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  630. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> Joshue: I have some feedback from PF on this issue which I'm prepared to share
  631. # [18:33] * DanC hears Joshue muffled... as thru a pillow
  632. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> agenda?
  633. # [18:33] * Zakim sees 3 items remaining on the agenda:
  634. # [18:33] * Zakim 4. tracker review [from ChrisWilson]
  635. # [18:33] * Zakim 5. discuss ping [from ChrisWilson]
  636. # [18:33] * Zakim 6. @headers update from Joshue [from MikeSmith]
  637. # [18:34] <ChrisWilson> action-75?
  638. # [18:34] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-75
  639. # [18:34] <trackbot> ACTION-75 -- Michael(tm) Smith to raise question to group about Yes, leave @profile out, No, re-add it -- and cite Hixie's summary of the discussion -- due 2008-10-24 -- OPEN
  640. # [18:34] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/75
  641. # [18:34] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-75 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  642. # [18:34] * Joshue I will try to speak more clearly
  643. # [18:34] <ChrisWilson> agenda+ decide on whether we're having a telecon next week
  644. # [18:34] * Zakim notes agendum 7 added
  645. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: I think we are ready to have a group survey about @profile
  646. # [18:35] <DanC> close action-77
  647. # [18:35] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-77.
  648. # [18:35] <trackbot> ACTION-77 Lead HTML WG to response to TAG discussion and report back to TAG closed
  649. # [18:35] * DanC lost track; which was mike's action on headers?
  650. # [18:35] * DanC ah... 63. closed. good.
  651. # [18:36] <MikeSmith> issue-72?
  652. # [18:36] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-72
  653. # [18:36] <trackbot> ISSUE-72 does not exists
  654. # [18:36] <DanC> (the josh-not-in-tracker bug got fixed. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/ )
  655. # [18:36] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Issue/Action Summary - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  656. # [18:36] <MikeSmith> action-72?
  657. # [18:36] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-72
  658. # [18:36] <trackbot> ACTION-72 -- Chris Wilson to rewrite spec to reinstate id/headers AND their functionality by specifically stating that headers are allowed to reference a td. Reword the current definition of the headers attribute so that each of the space separated tokens must have the value of the ID value of a th or td element. -- due 2008-10-02 -- OPEN
  659. # [18:36] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/72
  660. # [18:36] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-72 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  661. # [18:36] <DanC> ACTION-79 due 4 Dec 2008
  662. # [18:36] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-79.
  663. # [18:36] <trackbot> ACTION-79 - send email to spark issue-60 due date now 4 Dec 2008
  664. # [18:37] <DanC> looking at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0127.html ...
  665. # [18:37] <pimpbot> Title: HTML5 Specification - List of sections and corresponding work estimates from Ian Hickson on 2008-10-27 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  666. # [18:37] <DanC> "8. Content-Type handling and content sniffing
  667. # [18:37] <DanC> "
  668. # [18:38] <DanC> action-81: see "8. Content-Type handling and content sniffing" in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0127.html
  669. # [18:38] * trackbot attempting to add comment notes to ACTION-81.
  670. # [18:38] <trackbot> ACTION-81 Hixie to put content-type sniffing section on list of sections to find an editor for notes added
  671. # [18:38] <pimpbot> Title: HTML5 Specification - List of sections and corresponding work estimates from Ian Hickson on 2008-10-27 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  672. # [18:38] <MikeSmith> action-83
  673. # [18:38] <DanC> close action-81
  674. # [18:38] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-81.
  675. # [18:38] <trackbot> ACTION-81 Hixie to put content-type sniffing section on list of sections to find an editor for closed
  676. # [18:38] <MikeSmith> action-83?
  677. # [18:38] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-83
  678. # [18:38] <trackbot> ACTION-83 -- Chris Wilson to come up with a 16x16 image icon for IE for implementation chart -- due 2008-11-22 -- OPEN
  679. # [18:38] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/83
  680. # [18:38] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-83 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  681. # [18:38] * smedero tried to find official IE logos within the image gallery/press section on the Microsoft website. FAIL.
  682. # [18:38] <ChrisWilson> zakim, agenda?
  683. # [18:38] <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
  684. # [18:38] <Zakim> 4. tracker review [from ChrisWilson]
  685. # [18:38] <Zakim> 5. discuss ping [from ChrisWilson]
  686. # [18:38] <Zakim> 6. @headers update from Joshue [from MikeSmith]
  687. # [18:38] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson: that seems like enough from Tracker
  688. # [18:38] <Zakim> 7. decide on whether we're having a telecon next week [from ChrisWilson]
  689. # [18:38] <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item 4
  690. # [18:38] <Zakim> agendum 4, tracker review, closed
  691. # [18:38] <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  692. # [18:38] <Zakim> 5. discuss ping [from ChrisWilson]
  693. # [18:38] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 6
  694. # [18:38] <Zakim> agendum 6. "@headers update from Joshue" taken up [from MikeSmith]
  695. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  696. # [18:39] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  697. # [18:39] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 20 Nov 2008 (at www.w3.org)
  698. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> Joshue: feedback from Al... not much more to add but ...
  699. # [18:39] <Joshue> - in current draft HTML5
  700. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> ... I was hoping that there may be some news from the HTML WG side
  701. # [18:39] <Joshue> - Wiki anthology of discussion
  702. # [18:40] <Joshue> ** function and performance
  703. # [18:40] * DanC wonders if he missed a pointer into a wiki
  704. # [18:40] * DanC suggests forwarding to www-archive?
  705. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> Joshue: these comments I'm pasting in are from an e-mail message
  706. # [18:41] <DanC> "on the wiki"? help?
  707. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> ... maybe I can (re)post this to the public-html list
  708. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders
  709. # [18:42] <pimpbot> Title: HTML/IssueTableHeaders - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
  710. # [18:42] <Joshue> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders
  711. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> Joshue: that gives a good overview of the issues
  712. # [18:42] <DanC> hmm... it starts with "HTML 5 needs ..."; that seems to presume the conclusion.
  713. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> Joshue: jgraham smart-headers algorithm is really good ...
  714. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> ... but still you need a layered approach ...
  715. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> ... still need the markup ...
  716. # [18:43] <DanC> (joshue, you've lost me. if I'm representative at all, you've lost a lot of your audience)
  717. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> ... chained headers, nested headers ...
  718. # [18:43] <DanC> (but maybe I'm way behind)
  719. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> ... we talk about the same thing, but in different ways ...
  720. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> ... they are currently not allowed ...
  721. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute MikeSmith
  722. # [18:44] <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
  723. # [18:45] <MikeSmith> DanC: that page starts with, "HTML 5 needs a mechanism that enables..."
  724. # [18:45] <MikeSmith> DanC: that seems like [a statement of the solution, not a statement of the problem]
  725. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> Joshue: maybe the problem needs to be more explicit
  726. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> ... I can work on that
  727. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> ... problem is that there is a deficiency in the markup on the HTML5 spec, that doesn't address this problem
  728. # [18:47] <MikeSmith> DanC: I think [you need a better intro on the page that draws people in]
  729. # [18:47] <MikeSmith> Joshue: allowing nested/chained headers seems like a great solution to me
  730. # [18:47] <MikeSmith> ... @scope is poorly supported in AT software
  731. # [18:48] <MikeSmith> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders#head-9e7b78e86268dbd2771292df3f45bbe0472252bd
  732. # [18:48] <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders#head-29de33199bf5222d55c4a52b8970245d24bd286f
  733. # [18:48] <pimpbot> Title: HTML/IssueTableHeaders - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
  734. # [18:48] <pimpbot> Title: HTML/IssueTableHeaders - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
  735. # [18:48] <MikeSmith> Joshue: I think the first solution "Allow headers to reference a td" is the best
  736. # [18:48] <DanC> (now scanning the wiki page for arguments against #1 ...)
  737. # [18:49] <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item 6
  738. # [18:49] <Zakim> agendum 6, @headers update from Joshue, closed
  739. # [18:49] <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  740. # [18:49] <Zakim> 5. discuss ping [from ChrisWilson]
  741. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> Joshue: that's it for now [on this topic]
  742. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> DanC: who has the ball?
  743. # [18:49] <ChrisWilson> zakim, agenda?
  744. # [18:49] <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
  745. # [18:49] <Zakim> 5. discuss ping [from ChrisWilson]
  746. # [18:49] <Zakim> 7. decide on whether we're having a telecon next week [from ChrisWilson]
  747. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> q+ to comment
  748. # [18:49] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  749. # [18:50] <MikeSmith> DanC: I don't see the arguments against discussed on that Wiki page
  750. # [18:50] <ChrisWilson> ack MikeSmith
  751. # [18:50] * Zakim unmutes MikeSmith
  752. # [18:50] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to comment
  753. # [18:50] <MikeSmith> ... re-reading now, this is looking a little bit familier
  754. # [18:50] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  755. # [18:50] <DanC> (ok... arguments against #1 are under "Rationale: Why Headers Should Not be Included")
  756. # [18:51] <DanC> (checking http://www.whatwg.org/issues/ ...)
  757. # [18:51] <pimpbot> Title: WHATWG Issues List (at www.whatwg.org)
  758. # [18:51] <DanC> ("headers" doesn't occur there)
  759. # [18:53] <Philip> (DanC, the headers things are in "semantics-tables" there)
  760. # [18:53] <DanC> semantics-tables
  761. # [18:53] <Lachy> http://www.whatwg.org/issues/#semantics-tables
  762. # [18:53] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/issues/#semantics-tables
  763. # [18:53] <pimpbot> Title: WHATWG Issues List (at www.whatwg.org)
  764. # [18:53] <pimpbot> Title: WHATWG Issues List (at www.whatwg.org)
  765. # [18:53] <DanC> so http://www.whatwg.org/issues/#semantics-tables should work; doesn't seem to. but ok
  766. # [18:54] <DanC> ACTION Hixie: follow up on semantics-tables messages
  767. # [18:54] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  768. # [18:54] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Hixie
  769. # [18:54] * RRSAgent records action 2
  770. # [18:54] <DanC> ACTION ian: follow up on semantics-tables messages
  771. # [18:54] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  772. # [18:54] * RRSAgent records action 3
  773. # [18:54] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - ian
  774. # [18:54] <DanC> trackbot, status
  775. # [18:54] * trackbot knows about the following 9 users: Chris, Ben, Shawn, Dan, Michael(tm), James, Steve, Joshue, Julian
  776. # [18:54] * MikeSmith DanC , put the action on me
  777. # [18:54] * MikeSmith - Hixie's not in the tracker
  778. # [18:55] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 7
  779. # [18:55] <Zakim> agendum 7. "decide on whether we're having a telecon next week" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
  780. # [18:55] <DanC> ACTION MikeSmith: ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages
  781. # [18:55] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  782. # [18:55] * RRSAgent records action 4
  783. # [18:55] <trackbot> Created ACTION-87 - Ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2008-11-27].
  784. # [18:55] * Joshue thanks bye
  785. # [18:55] <Zakim> -Joshue
  786. # [18:55] <DanC> action-87 due 4 Dec 2008
  787. # [18:55] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-87.
  788. # [18:55] <trackbot> ACTION-87 Ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages due date now 4 Dec 2008
  789. # [18:55] * Parts: Joshue (Joshue@62.77.173.27)
  790. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  791. # [18:55] <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger, rubys, ChrisWilson, Shawn_Medero (muted), DanC, Julian, MikeSmith, AdrianBa, Cynthia_Shelly, Lachy
  792. # [18:55] <DanC> (pls update the due date with your best guess, MikeSmith )
  793. # [18:55] <dsinger> yes, let's skip it
  794. # [18:56] <ChrisWilson> resolved, no telecon next week.
  795. # [18:56] * Lachy isn't in the US, but will take a holiday anyway :-)
  796. # [18:56] <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item 7
  797. # [18:56] <Zakim> agendum 7, decide on whether we're having a telecon next week, closed
  798. # [18:56] <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
  799. # [18:56] <Zakim> 5. discuss ping [from ChrisWilson]
  800. # [18:56] * DanC cannot stay long at all today
  801. # [18:57] <DanC> (is this an action from TPAC that didn't get into tracker?)
  802. # [18:58] <Lachy> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/ has limited documentation on how to check in and check out
  803. # [18:58] <pimpbot> Title: W3C Public CVS Repository (at dev.w3.org)
  804. # [18:59] <DanC> the docs are http://www.w3.org/Project/CVSdoc/
  805. # [18:59] <Lachy> you need to generate an SSH2 key, and send in your public key
  806. # [19:00] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 5
  807. # [19:00] <Zakim> agendum 5. "discuss ping" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
  808. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> [Cynthia will follow up with DanC off-list about getting the doc into CVS]
  809. # [19:01] <smedero> Roy, recently, on Ping: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Nov/0316.html
  810. # [19:01] <pimpbot> Title: Re: An HTML language specification vs. a browser specification from Roy T. Fielding on 2008-11-20 (public-html@w3.org from November 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  811. # [19:01] <smedero> (he's complained about ping in the past on public-html...)
  812. # [19:01] <DanC> issue-2?
  813. # [19:01] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-2
  814. # [19:01] <trackbot> ISSUE-2 -- Practicability of UI requirements for hyperlink auditing -- RAISED
  815. # [19:01] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/2
  816. # [19:01] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-2 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  817. # [19:01] <smedero> (or, objected... I should say.)
  818. # [19:01] <MikeSmith> DanC: [summarizing objections to @ping and Roy's objections in particulars]
  819. # [19:01] <MikeSmith> DanC: I don't yet understand the arguments against @ping
  820. # [19:02] <MikeSmith> ... seems like taking a hidden-in-script thing and making it into a declarative mechanism
  821. # [19:03] <MikeSmith> DanC: would like to have an eyes-open requirements discussion about this
  822. # [19:03] <Julian> another argument against it is the way it's specified (as POST)
  823. # [19:03] <Lachy> there's a lot of discussion about ping on the whatwg list from 2004/5
  824. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> Julian: I think it would be helpful if the spec contained less of that stuff that clearly does not have a consensus yet in the WG
  825. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
  826. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> ... and Roy was suggesting things of that class should first be put forward as separate documents
  827. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Julian
  828. # [19:04] <Zakim> -AdrianBa
  829. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Shawn_Medero
  830. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> [adjourned]
  831. # [19:05] <Zakim> -rubys
  832. # [19:05] <ChrisWilson> adjourned (will continue discussion next week)
  833. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Lachy
  834. # [19:05] <Zakim> -dsinger
  835. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  836. # [19:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  837. # [19:05] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
  838. # [19:05] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 20 Nov 2008 (at www.w3.org)
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  840. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> @time
  841. # [19:05] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: 02:59 AM JST, November 21
  842. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop MikeSmith
  843. # [19:05] <Zakim> MikeSmith is being disconnected
  844. # [19:06] <Zakim> -MikeSmith
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  850. # [19:40] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, DanC, in HTML_WG()12:00PM
  851. # [19:40] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  852. # [19:40] <Zakim> Attendees were Shawn_Medero, ChrisWilson, dsinger, DanC, Julian, AdrianBa, MikeSmith, Cynthia_Shelly, Lachy, Joshue, rubys
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  968. # [21:21] <anne> (my apologies for missing the telcon, I just came back from Tanzania and some family came over for food and pictures)
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  1002. # [21:51] <pimpbot> planet: Half Full <http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/11/20/Half-Full>
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  1077. # [23:23] * Topic is 'HTML discussion | This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  1078. # [23:23] * Set by MikeSmith on Fri Sep 19 02:09:54
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  1093. # [23:40] <Hixie> DanC: fwiw i share your worry about people feeling disenfranchised (in particular roy and sam) -- if you have any ideas on preventing that, i'm eager to hear them
  1094. # [23:41] <Hixie> it's not clear to me what we did differentlt with them than the hundreds of other happy participants
  1095. # [23:44] <DanC> your style works for some people and not for others
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  1100. # [23:48] <Hixie> DanC: yeah... i dunno what to do about that though
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  1104. # [23:48] <DanC> mix in more styles, I hope
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  1107. # [23:49] <Hixie> i'm trying to mix in more styles with roy's recent thread, trying to dig deep into what assumptions he has so i can work out where he's coming from, but it's like squeezing blood from a stone
  1108. # [23:50] <Hixie> i don't know what style works best for this demographic
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  1111. # [23:51] <Hixie> (or how to recognise early enough that someone needs a different approach)
  1112. # [23:51] <Hixie> any ideas?
  1113. # [23:51] <DanC> I have a hard time taking this seriously, Hixie . I think you know when you're pissing somebody off.
  1114. # [23:52] <Hixie> i can tell when i'm pissing them off, but it's usually too late by then
  1115. # [23:52] <Hixie> and i don't know _why_ i'm pissing them off
  1116. # [23:52] <Hixie> e.g. i have no idea why roy is getting pissy in the recent thread, where i'm actively going out of my way to work out what he wants
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  1118. # [23:53] <Hixie> and i don't think sam got pissed off, and i don't know why he would have if he did, and i have no idea what i should have done differently
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  1121. # [23:53] <Hixie> what e-mails from roy should i have replied to differently? and how should i have replied?
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  1125. # [23:54] <DanC> sometimes email is a really bad way to learn about somebody's motivations
  1126. # [23:55] <Hixie> that's for sure
  1127. # [23:56] <DanC> no idea why roy is acting annoyed? really? I find that hard to believe. You can't even make some informed guesses?
  1128. # [23:57] <DanC> likewise sam. You don't remember any interactions in the past where he might have walked away in frustration?
  1129. # [23:57] <DanC> I think some of it comes down to basic technical disagreements; e.g. how much error handling should be in the HTTP and URI specs.
  1130. # [23:58] <Hixie> surely they're not just getting pissed because of technical disagreements?
  1131. # [23:58] <Dashiva> It's like he's representing an entirely separate ecosystem that uses HTML, but it disconnected from the web
  1132. # [23:58] <DanC> in those cases, I could point to things that you _could_ have done differently with Roy, but to say what you _should_ have done differently presumes I know which of you is right, and I'm not sure I do.
  1133. # [23:59] <jgraham> DanC: Does it matter who is right in tems of how to interact?
  1134. # [23:59] <Hixie> wait so you're saying that the only way to make them not feel disenfranchised is by agreeing with them technically and changing the spec?
  1135. # [23:59] <DanC> no
  1136. # [23:59] <gavin> I think that's probably true
  1137. # Session Close: Fri Nov 21 00:00:00 2008

The end :)