/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-11-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Nov 21 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] <DanC> I'm saying _some_ of the friction comes from technical disagreements.
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> i thought with sam the last time we had a big discussion the last thing he said was that he understood where we were, and was partially in agreement. i don't remember him being pissed off. but earlier he said he felt he had tuned out
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  6. # [00:01] <DanC> then, pile on top of that his style and your style; each of you has umpteen years of experience behind your sense of design
  7. # [00:01] <Hixie> it doesn't really matter who has experience, surely, if we're discussing technical points with corresponding logical argumentation and evidence
  8. # [00:01] <rking3> its seems to me roy is being quite unreasonable
  9. # [00:02] <DanC> the frustration comes in trying to relay 15 years of experience in a paragraph
  10. # [00:02] <jgraham> Roy seem to have very different assumptions about how the web works to those of many other members of the group
  11. # [00:03] <Hixie> well that's why i tried to drill down into his assumptions in the recent thread
  12. # [00:03] <Hixie> but it just made him even angrier
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  14. # [00:04] <Hixie> which seems weird to me, why would trying to listen to his feedback piss him off?
  15. # [00:04] <Hixie> especially when his complain is that we don't listen to his feedback
  16. # [00:04] <DanC> yes, roy is over-the-top lately. but come on: that sort of thing is rewarded in email. I tried various less loud ways to manage the WG and I was ignored.
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  18. # [00:04] <jgraham> DanC: In what sense rewarded?
  19. # [00:04] <DanC> in the process of "listening", you twisted his words.
  20. # [00:04] <rking3> he's had many more paragraphs to make his point, but instead chooses to make non constructive critiques of the current work
  21. # [00:04] <rking3> jgraham: i think that's the core of it
  22. # [00:04] <rking3> he says "I don't care about scripting", but a large part of the web requires it
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  24. # [00:04] <DanC> rewarded in that it gets lots of attention and responses
  25. # [00:04] <Dashiva> It was much the same with URLs, wasn't it? "You're doing it wrong, we don't care about the real world, go fix it instead"
  26. # [00:05] <rking3> DanC: roy accused hixie of twisting his words, but would not say in what way they were twisted
  27. # [00:05] <Hixie> it certainly wasn't my intent to twist his words
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  29. # [00:05] <Hixie> i'm just trying to understand him
  30. # [00:05] <Hixie> but apparently that approach doesn't work either
  31. # [00:05] <DanC> Dashiva, please, be careful. " we don't care about the real world" -- are you sure anyone said exactly that? putting words in people's mouth like that is off-putting.
  32. # [00:06] <Hixie> i'm really at a loss as to how to work with roy in a way that makes him understand that his feedback _is_ being listened to and balanced against everyone else's feedback
  33. # [00:07] <Hixie> (i'm assuming he's not getting pissed off, as you put it, because we _are_ balancing his feedback against everyone else's, though i suppose it is plausible that he wants us to consider his feedbac above other people's)
  34. # [00:07] <jgraham> Speaking purely for myself, the main effect was to decrease my respect for him. I hink I understand why he was annoyed by Hixie but the way he responded suggested that he was more interested in making a scene than in making progress
  35. # [00:08] <Hixie> why was he annoyed?
  36. # [00:08] <gavin> he's annoyed because you don't agree with him
  37. # [00:08] <DanC> it sure looked to me like you mixed substantial argument with your listening, Hixie.
  38. # [00:09] <Dashiva> DanC: Saying that would require speaking straight and not packaging things carefully, so no, nobody said that.
  39. # [00:09] <jgraham> I might not explain thi well, but I think he believed that you were trying to demonstrate that his views were unreasonable by asking a long series of leading questions that you would later use to justify not listening to him
  40. # [00:09] <Hixie> DanC: do you think that is what pissed him off? technical argumentation?
  41. # [00:10] <DanC> argumentation hidden as "listening". yes.
  42. # [00:10] <gavin> or more generally, because hixie doesn't see "the web" and "html" the same way he does
  43. # [00:10] <gavin> I think it's nearly impossible to reconcile the differences in viewpoints
  44. # [00:10] <gavin> so it just seems like a waste to try
  45. # [00:11] <gavin> perhaps I'm being too pessimistic :)
  46. # [00:11] <Hixie> DanC: was it hidden as such? that wasn't my intent.
  47. # [00:11] <DanC> perhaps, but writing people off is really, really risky
  48. # [00:11] <Hixie> i have no interest in writing roy off, indeed
  49. # [00:11] <Hixie> or anyone
  50. # [00:11] <gavin> spending large amounts of time arguing and getting nowhere is pretty risky too :)
  51. # [00:11] <DanC> yup
  52. # [00:12] <DanC> I don't mean to speak to the intent behind your questions, Hixie. I mean to say what I think Roy perceived.
  53. # [00:12] <jgraham> I'm not sure if I'm the only person who thinks that the HTML-WG spends a great deal too much time on meta-issues
  54. # [00:13] <Hixie> DanC: fair enough. do you have any advice on how i can avoid that perception?
  55. # [00:13] <DanC> maybe focus on a handful of questions at a time... go more depth-first in the investigation
  56. # [00:14] <Hixie> hm that might work
  57. # [00:14] <jgraham> Hixie: I think people can percieve "do you agree with statement a or statement b" as trying to put words in their mouth
  58. # [00:14] <gavin> which is a shame, really
  59. # [00:14] <gavin> they should be able to answer "neither" without taking offence
  60. # [00:15] <Hixie> yeah i was a little concerned over phrasing it that way but i'm having great trouble getting him to put his substantive statements in full sentences
  61. # [00:15] <Hixie> which makes it hard to work out what he means
  62. # [00:15] <DanC> jgraham, I'd like us to dispense with most of the meta-issues too, but the fact that they keep coming up says to me that we haven't built the right social structure het
  63. # [00:15] <DanC> yet
  64. # [00:15] <gavin> though I see how it could be a frustrating to have a conversation
  65. # [00:16] <DanC> Hixie, I think he has largely made up his mind about you; I'm not sure you can make much progress without involving other people
  66. # [00:16] <DanC> progress with Roy, that is
  67. # [00:16] <jgraham> DanC: I have no idea what the right social structure is. Or even what that means really. Is the right social structure one in which these issues are decided or one in which there is some way of preventing these issues from blocking progress?
  68. # [00:16] <Hixie> that would be sad
  69. # [00:16] <Hixie> how should i recognise other people who require special treatment along these lines in future, before they get pissed off?
  70. # [00:17] <Dashiva> If he's made his mind up about Hixie, why doesn't he try to convince the n-1 other members of the WG?
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  72. # [00:17] <DanC> the right social structure is one where these issues are decided in a way that pretty much everybody feels their input was given due consideration
  73. # [00:18] <jgraham> Dashiva: I guess n-m-1 of the working group are percieved as being Hixie fanbois or powerless to effect change or both. m is probably rather small
  74. # [00:19] <DanC> I don't suggest Roy requires special treatment. And he's certainly not blameless
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  76. # [00:19] <DanC> I have asked you to say nothing when you know what you're going to say is going to piss people off, hixie. You said no. Maybe you'd like to reconsider?
  77. # [00:19] <jgraham> DanC: Do you have an example of such a structure working in another environment as large and diverse in ideology as the HTMLWG
  78. # [00:20] <DanC> no
  79. # [00:20] <DanC> the scale of this project is new to me
  80. # [00:20] <Dashiva> jgraham: Really? Considering the activity on @alt and @headers and whatnot else, I'd estimate m to be pretty big.
  81. # [00:20] <Hixie> DanC: well insofar as he feels turned away, whereas most people who have come to the community have either left happy (and told me so) or joined the ranks of the active participants, he needs special treatment so that he doesn't feel turned away
  82. # [00:21] <Hixie> DanC: well in the case of roy i didn't know ahead of time that what i was said was going to piss him off.
  83. # [00:21] <Hixie> DanC: so that seems like a separate problem.
  84. # [00:21] <jgraham> Dashiva: I think the number of people that are percieved as having the ability to effect change in the draft is rather small
  85. # [00:22] <DanC> ok... I see what you're saying about special treatment. This is something I realized too late about the W3C HTML WG:
  86. # [00:23] <DanC> the WHATWG grew at a sustainable rate. The community was self-selecting. Roy pipes up in the W3C HTML WG not because he's attracted to the work we're doing, but because it has a chance of impacting him even though he doesn't like it.
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  88. # [00:24] <DanC> As hundreds of people joined the W3C HTML WG, I didn't greet each one at the door and orient them.
  89. # [00:24] <jgraham> DanC: Is it possible that no social structure can be invented that will allow large groups of people with mutually conflicting ideology to feel that their views have been adequately considered? In a small group people might be convinced to accept change that they dislike for the sake of progress. In a larger group there may always be a subset of people who refuse to compromise on certian issues
  90. # [00:24] <DanC> as bad behaviour came up on the list, I quietly tried to recruit people to take care of that sort of thing eventually, but mostly ignored it, waiting for other parties to join.
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  92. # [00:25] <DanC> sure, jgraham ; we're not trying to make absolutely *everybody* happy.
  93. # [00:26] <DanC> but I'm trying to get the HTML WG to function as a peer among many groups
  94. # [00:27] <DanC> it's just plain true that HTML is bigger than most groups, and so they see something scary coming their way
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  96. # [00:27] <jgraham> DanC: It's not about whether people end up happy or not it's about whether the same issues keep being dredged up so preventing progress
  97. # [00:28] <DanC> as more people come on board, old stuff gets re-examined. that's natural. we try to make it efficient with FAQs and design principles and stuff.
  98. # [00:29] <DanC> witness the recent "In essence, it is a fundamental
  99. # [00:29] <DanC> rejection of one of the core values of XML. It is the polar opposite of
  100. # [00:29] <DanC> draconian error handling."
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  103. # [00:30] <DanC> somebody should respond to that with a pointer to the relevant design principle
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  105. # [00:30] <DanC> I wish the principles would get cited by reference more often, to make it clear which are more ratified than just individual positions
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  108. # [00:32] <DanC> (and mjs said something about lots of people voting for the design principles; I don't think we ever put them to a vote. I think they've stabilized sort of by default.)
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  110. # [00:32] <jgraham> DanC: I have witnessed that citing design principles often causes disagreement over the interpretation of the principle or suggestions to alter the principles themselves
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  114. # [00:33] <DanC> that's part of the game, no?
  115. # [00:33] <jgraham> similarly when mjs brought up the charter recently
  116. # [00:33] <Hixie> yeah citing the design principles doesn't seem to actually help
  117. # [00:33] <DanC> I think you don't give it enough credit, Hixie...
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  119. # [00:34] <DanC> to you, the design principles are so old they seem like gravity, but they're new to other people.
  120. # [00:34] <Hixie> i think uniformally when i have tried citing them it has taken me more e-mails to get the point across than when i have not
  121. # [00:34] <jgraham> DanC: Not if the group wastes 100 emails explaining why "don't break the web" is fundamental and necessary when it could be doing something useful
  122. # [00:34] <DanC> maybe to get the point across to that one person, but keep in mind the 400+ people watching the conversation, hixie
  123. # [00:35] <DanC> not waste; spend.
  124. # [00:35] <jgraham> I'm not convinced that the 400 people exist
  125. # [00:35] * DanC blinks
  126. # [00:35] <DanC> you think some robot filled out the form?
  127. # [00:35] <Hixie> and 900+ on the whatwg list, but there too, with no mention of the principles, we again don't have a problem not citing them
  128. # [00:35] <DanC> or you think people don't read the email?
  129. # [00:35] <jgraham> I doubt those people read all the email
  130. # [00:35] <Hixie> going back to the earlier discussion, i really have no idea how to detect people who need special behavior before it's too late. if there's no way to know in advance, i don't see how to avoid more cases of people walking away.
  131. # [00:37] <DanC> well, to some extent, that's life, hixie. You can't *always* avoid offense; sometimes you just have to apologize once you realize you've done it.
  132. # [00:37] <DanC> and we can't completely avoid people walking away, either
  133. # [00:38] <DanC> oh... I should not forget the obvious: the fact that this thing called "HTML 5" also has some HTTP protocol spec and some URI spec in it.
  134. # [00:39] <DanC> if you didn't know that would annoy people, I'm telling you, it does.
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  136. # [00:39] <Hixie> it annoys me
  137. # [00:39] <Hixie> i assume it annoys other people too :-)
  138. # [00:40] <DanC> ok. then let's not be surprised when they vent a little. such is life.
  139. # [00:40] <Hixie> not much we can do about it if those groups won't edit the specs accordingly
  140. # [00:40] <Hixie> (and nobody has volunteered to edit the split out vesion)
  141. # [00:41] <Hixie> version
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  144. # [00:41] <DanC> keep in mind that in those two cases, Roy is sorta 80% of the group. or was.
  145. # [00:41] <DanC> I'm working on the URI thing.
  146. # [00:41] <DanC> I think I should be able to get that done. I'll say so on the list before much longer
  147. # [00:42] <DanC> I'm in this step: "researching, reverse engineering, designing, and
  148. # [00:42] <DanC> specifying, depending on the approach taken
  149. # [00:42] <DanC> "
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  152. # [00:47] <Hixie> cool
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  155. # [00:51] <DanC> after that, I hope to bite off a small part of "Content-Type handling and content sniffing", namely charset detection
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  158. # [00:53] <DanC> hmm... #9 seems like it's out of order in that list (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0127.html ). just checking to see if anybody was reading closely?
  159. # [00:53] <pimpbot> Title: HTML5 Specification - List of sections and corresponding work estimates from Ian Hickson on 2008-10-27 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
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  161. # [00:59] <Hixie> out of order?
  162. # [00:59] <Hixie> the list is ordered by what would be the most helpful to me to have split out
  163. # [01:00] <Hixie> most helpful first, most harmful last
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  170. # [01:24] <DanC> oh. I thought it was sorted by how much it would delay HTML 5.
  171. # [01:24] * DanC heads out for the day
  172. # [01:24] <hober> DanC: I think charter r1.22's "clean up some wording about XHTML" looks like a bigger change than just a clean up
  173. # [01:24] <DanC> yeah. :-/
  174. # [01:25] <hober> a change very relevant to the issues XHTML2WG raised re: wording of our "relationship with XHTML 1.x" stuff
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  179. # [01:32] * Set by MikeSmith on Fri Sep 19 02:09:54
  180. # [01:34] <Hixie> DanC: much the same thing :-)
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  189. # [01:52] <takkaria> seems tbray has joined the fray in the blogworld
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  320. # [11:19] <hsivonen> anne: in case you are skipping meta discussion threads, my latest in language spec thread has an XHR2-relevant bit
  321. # [11:24] <anne> thanks, I'm actually trying to follow it somewhat given that there's controversy around it
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  323. # [11:28] <anne> I believe we considered both options and decided to go with what the XMLHttpRequest Level 2 spec says now on purpose
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  325. # [11:30] <anne> hmm, XHTML 1 was removed from the charter?
  326. # [11:34] <hsivonen> anne: yeah, that's interesting considering that an "XHTML 1.2" has appeared without being on the XHTML2 WG charter
  327. # [11:35] <hsivonen> ("A new iteration of XHTML Modularization" is on their charter but a spec using the modules is not.)
  328. # [11:40] <anne> as for XHR2, I'd be happy to change it again if people feel the other way is more useful
  329. # [11:41] <anne> I believe I just went with what maciej and sicking were happy with at the time
  330. # [11:42] <hsivonen> anne: I don't know about the actual expectations Rob Sayre was referring to, but intuitively I'd expect XHR and DOMParser to do the same thing
  331. # [11:42] <hsivonen> of course, actual use cases may show that my intuition is wrong
  332. # [11:44] <anne> fair enough; I wonder where DOMParser is defined
  333. # [11:46] <hsivonen> anne: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOMParser
  334. # [11:46] <pimpbot> Title: DOMParser - MDC (at developer.mozilla.org)
  335. # [11:47] <hsivonen> that's the closest thing to spec that I'm aware of
  336. # [11:50] <hsivonen> IIRC, WebKit has an implementation, too.
  337. # [11:50] <hsivonen> actually, I think the closest thing to a spec is on mxr.mozilla.org :-)
  338. # [11:51] <anne> :(
  339. # [11:52] <Lachy> I wonder who it was that removed the mention of XHTML 1 from the charter? Dan's email isn't clear about that; he only says that Mike added the IDs in the most recent change
  340. # [11:54] <anne> I believe everyone should have anonymous CVS access to the W3C site
  341. # [11:55] <anne> I even have some write access at various places iirc
  342. # [11:56] <hsivonen> cunningly, the page doesn't show the full CVS $Id$, so one can't tell even from archive.org
  343. # [11:56] <Lachy> yeah, we probably do. But which CVS server are the changes on?
  344. # [11:58] <anne> that change was done by Chris Lilley
  345. # [11:58] <anne> revision 1.22
  346. # [11:58] <anne> date: 2007/04/18 10:48:03; author: clilley; state: Exp; lines: +6 -6
  347. # [11:58] <anne> changes after discussion with Ian remove left-over mention of xhtml1 from intro, mailing list now created, link to wg home page.
  348. # [12:00] <Lachy> anne, where exactly in CVS is the charter located
  349. # [12:01] <anne> WWW/2007/...
  350. # [12:01] <anne> it's not on dev.w3.org
  351. # [12:01] <anne> btw
  352. # [12:01] <Lachy> which CVS server?
  353. # [12:01] <Lachy> cvs.w3.org?
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  362. # [14:20] <Lachy> I wonder if many of the calls for splitting the spec based on implementation vs. conforming document criteria could be addressed by improving the way in which the spec is structured
  363. # [14:21] <Lachy> although it already is largely divided into such sections anyway
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  365. # [14:26] <hsivonen> fwiw, I think it's a spec bug that IDL shows only conforming attribute reflection
  366. # [14:26] <hsivonen> if I didn't know otherwise, I'd expect IDL to match the implemented interface
  367. # [14:28] <Lachy> oh, yeah. Why doesn't it do that?
  368. # [14:28] <hsivonen> Hixie: ^
  369. # [14:31] <Lachy> I suppose it would need some way of identifying which DOM properties/methods are considered non-conforming. e.g. HTMLBodyElement.background reflects the non-conforming background attribut
  370. # [14:41] <anne> I thought the non-conforming IDL bits are part of section 9
  371. # [14:42] <hsivonen> anne: yeah, but that's confusing
  372. # [14:43] <anne> depends on the audience
  373. # [14:43] <hsivonen> I guess
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  375. # [14:49] <Lachy> I think it should at least list them in the IDL for each element, even if it links to their definitions in section 9
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  399. # [20:06] <pimpbot> planet: W3C Validator, now with HTML5 flavour <http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/11/w3c_validator_now_with_html5.html>
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  412. # [21:47] <Hixie> hsivonen: rendering section
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  416. # [23:13] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Can I have a hug?
  417. # [23:15] <gsnedders> Julian: I don't think any one is arguing against such sections being split out, just that having other sections split out would probably be more helpful
  418. # [23:16] <gsnedders> (re your latest email to public-html)
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  421. # Session Close: Sat Nov 22 00:00:01 2008

The end :)