/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-11-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Nov 28 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  46. # [12:35] <krijnh> krijnh: test
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  48. # [13:07] <MikeSmith> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-tables/#table
  49. # [13:07] <pimpbot> Title: MAMA: Tables - Opera Developer Community (at dev.opera.com)
  50. # [13:07] <MikeSmith> "A few of the attributes are VERY popular with authors—Border, Width, Cellpadding, and Cellspacing are used in ~90% of all URLs that use tables."
  51. # [13:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: seems like making those non-conforming is an uphill battle
  52. # [13:09] <hsivonen> I don't see useful gain from it
  53. # [13:11] * Philip is still incapable of remembering the CSS equivalents of cellpadding and cellspacing, and has to look it up every time he writes a table
  54. # [13:13] <Lachy> 'border-spacing' and 'padding', I think
  55. # [13:13] <Lachy> though I can't remember exactly what the cellpadding attribute does, so I could be wrong
  56. # [13:15] <Lachy> yep, according to HTML4, it just adds padding to the cell, so: td { padding: 10px; } should be equivalent to cellpadding=10
  57. # [13:16] <Philip> Lachy: It's more like <style>#table-of-stuff td, #table-of-stuff th { padding: 10px; }</style><table id="table-of-stuff"> to be equivalent to <table cellpadding="10">
  58. # [13:16] <Philip> which is a big pain
  59. # [13:17] <Lachy> yeah, I know. I just simplified it
  60. # [13:17] <Philip> Just thinking of ids for tables is a difficult task for me :-(
  61. # [13:18] <Lachy> part of the problem with those attributes is that so many tools generate tables that contain those attributes by default.
  62. # [13:18] <Lachy> TextMate certainly does it when you use the insert table shortcut
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  64. # [13:22] <Philip> To get the same effect as cellspacing=0, I think I have to something with border-collapse which gets all complicated and buggy
  65. # [13:22] <Philip> (I've hit the same border-collapse bug in Firefox on two entirely independent occasions)
  66. # [13:23] <Lachy> what border-collapse bug?
  67. # [13:26] <Philip> Something to do with rendering collapsed borders in tables with rowspans or something like that, but I don't remember exactly what it was now
  68. # [13:50] <pimpbot> planet: Dev.Opera: Creating pseudo 3D games with HTML 5 canvas <http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/580>
  69. # [13:53] <Philip> Bah, Wolf3D is far too old-fashioned
  70. # [13:53] <Philip> People shouldn't accept anything less than Duke3D canvas raycasting!
  71. # [13:54] <Philip> (Maybe I should write an article about how to do that :-) )
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  74. # [14:10] <hsivonen> real-time ray*tracing* FTW!
  75. # [14:11] <Lachy> is raycasting another name for raytracing?
  76. # [14:12] <Lachy> or is it a different technique?
  77. # [14:13] <Dashiva> I believe you follow the rays the opposite direction
  78. # [14:13] <Lachy> ok
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  81. # [14:28] <hsivonen> Lachy: raytracing is *significantly* more compute-intensive and looks better
  82. # [14:29] <Lachy> hsivonen, I understand what raytracing is. I'd never heard the term raycasting before
  83. # [14:37] <Philip> Lachy: Raycasting is (at least in the context of games) 2D - you cast a single ray per column of pixels, find the nearest object it hits, then draw that object in that column
  84. # [14:38] <Philip> Raytracing is 3D, and uses lots more rays - you cast a single ray per pixel, find the nearest object it hits, and then cast a load more rays to do shadows and reflections and all the other fancy effects you want, and then finally you draw the pixel by combining all those rays
  85. # [14:38] * Parts: deane (opera@121.72.203.100)
  86. # [14:38] <Philip> (I think Dashiva's statement was entirely wrong)
  87. # [14:40] * tlr is now known as tlr-bbl
  88. # [14:40] <Philip> Anyway, real-time raytracing is a silly idea since you can get much better performance and much better control by hacking on polygon rasterisers :-)
  89. # [14:41] <Philip> and you get photorealistic rendering by giving good tools to good artists who know how to cheat to make it look real, rather than by accurately modelling the physics of light
  90. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I see you changed some pattern names in the HTML5 schema recently
  91. # [14:52] <MikeSmith> e.g., prose->flow
  92. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> embedded->phrasing
  93. # [14:54] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes. they now match the terminology of the spec
  94. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> OK
  95. # [14:55] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: however, I removed .embedded, because that category from the spec is no longer relevant to document conformance
  96. # [14:55] <hsivonen> so the changes were
  97. # [14:55] <hsivonen> prose to flow
  98. # [14:55] <hsivonen> embedded to phrasing
  99. # [14:55] <hsivonen> phrase to phrasing
  100. # [14:55] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I also fixed the content model of audio and video
  101. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> cool
  102. # [14:56] <hsivonen> and added type=search, placeholder and size
  103. # [14:58] <MikeSmith> I find script.attrs.embedded remains
  104. # [14:58] <MikeSmith> in core-scripting.rnc
  105. # [15:05] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it means a different thing
  106. # [15:06] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it means inline script as opposed to external
  107. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> d'oh
  108. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> yeah, sorry
  109. # [15:06] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I accidentally renamed it and had to change it back :-)
  110. # [15:07] <hsivonen> The name originally comes from a time when the term "inline" was taken for another purpose
  111. # [15:21] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I see
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  116. # [17:20] * marcos wonders if there are rules for sniffing CSS defined somewhere?
  117. # [17:22] <hsivonen> marcos: is there sniffing beyond @charset?
  118. # [17:23] <marcos> dunno, that's why I'm asking. I'm deferring all content type sniffing in the widget spec to HTML5. But from a quick scan, I didn't see how CSS was sniffed.
  119. # [17:24] <marcos> I guess it doesn't matter. because the type is implied when the stylesheet is pointed to.
  120. # [17:25] <Philip> marcos: For <link>, HTML5 seems to say "the user agent must use the resource's Content-Type metadata to determine the type of the resource. If there is no type metadata, but the external resource link type has a default type defined, then the user agent must assume that the resource is of that type."
  121. # [17:25] <Philip> (except in the case of sniffed images)
  122. # [17:26] <marcos> yeah, that's what I though would happen
  123. # [17:26] <Philip> and an example says "For those that are sent as text/css, it would apply the styles, but for those labeled as text/plain, or any other type, it would not."
  124. # [17:27] <marcos> Philip, the problem is that widget engines don't "serve" resources (there is no type, they are just read locally from disk).
  125. # [17:27] <marcos> in other words, resources are not labelled.
  126. # [17:28] <Philip> marcos: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#content-type-0 is probably the relevant place that should say what "Content-Type metadata" means when it's not an HTTP response
  127. # [17:28] <pimpbot> Title: 2 Common infrastructure HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  128. # [17:29] <marcos> "For resources fetched from the file system, user agents should use platform-specific conventions, e.g. operating system extension/type mappings."
  129. # [17:30] <marcos> the problem is that some files might not have any extensions. Eg. I generate a widget with PHP, so all my files have .php extensions.
  130. # [17:31] <marcos> i.e. /myStylesheet.php, /index.php, etc.
  131. # [17:31] <Philip> I guess the widget spec could either specify some other way of determining the 'Content-Type metadata' of a resource, or else say that there isn't any
  132. # [17:34] <marcos> hmmm....
  133. # [17:34] <marcos> Ok, I'll think about that. Thanks for the help Philip.
  134. # [17:35] <Philip> (You might want to check with someone who actually understands this stuff, i.e. not me :-) )
  135. # [17:35] <marcos> hehe
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The end :)