/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-11-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Nov 30 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  39. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: you around?
  40. # [13:41] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: yes
  41. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> I'm looking for some new music to listen to. any quick recommendations. I can trade you at least one: Camera Obscura, album "Underachievers Please Try Harder"
  42. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: ↑
  43. # [13:46] * gsnedders laughs at someone asking him for music advice
  44. # [13:46] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: I've quite taken to Flyleaf recently
  45. # [13:46] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: But it may well not be your sort of music :)
  46. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> I'm not sure what my sort of music is, but I'll check it out
  47. # [13:47] <Philip> I suggest the Lemmings soundtrack
  48. # [13:48] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Nor am I. But Wikipedia does list Flyleaf as being "Christian rock (disputed)"
  49. # [13:48] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Which may cause upset for a number of people in here :)
  50. # [13:49] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: It's borderline metal/rock stuff, like a fair bit of what I listen to
  51. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> if they are disputers of Christian rock, I'm a fan of them already
  52. # [13:49] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: :)
  53. # [13:49] <gsnedders> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyleaf#Christian_faith
  54. # [13:49] <pimpbot> Title: Flyleaf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)
  55. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> i wonder if Last.fm will let me get to the Lemmings soundtrack
  56. # [13:50] * Philip wants a band to make fraggle rock music
  57. # [13:50] * gsnedders is listening to Lollipop by Mika from Life In Cartoon Motion
  58. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: last.fm first gives me Three Days Grace when I choose Flyleaf
  59. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> (band name)
  60. # [13:50] <gsnedders> last.fm is awesome.
  61. # [13:50] <gsnedders> :P
  62. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> skipping past Three Days Grace
  63. # [13:51] <gsnedders> I normally give in and just go straight to the band's page on the website
  64. # [13:51] <gsnedders> That seems to be the only way to reliably get something by the band
  65. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> yeah
  66. # [13:51] <gsnedders> but there again, when it does by default tune to lastfm://artist/Flyleaf/similarartists the URI rather does give it away
  67. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: are you a Slipknot fan?
  68. # [13:52] * Joins: marcos (marcos@87.196.54.183)
  69. # [13:52] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: No
  70. # [13:53] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: I like random music.
  71. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> I see
  72. # [13:53] * gsnedders has been meaning to get some KoRn
  73. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> my brother's a korn fan, I think
  74. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> me and my brother don't agree on a lot of music these days
  75. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> except Johnny Cash and the Meat Puppets
  76. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> Philip: who did the Lemmings soundtrack?
  77. # [13:58] <gsnedders> marcos: The caption for who the people are in the latest standards suck contradicts the tagline
  78. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> can anybody think of a good way to say "Contexts in which this element may be used", but with a little fewer words?
  79. # [14:01] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: This element may be used within?
  80. # [14:01] <MikeSmith> As a heading?
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  82. # [14:01] <gsnedders> Nah
  83. # [14:01] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233)
  84. # [14:01] <Philip> MikeSmith: Wikipedia says Brian Johnson
  85. # [14:01] <MikeSmith> Philip: OK
  86. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> ne'er heard of him
  87. # [14:02] <Julian> MikeSmith: jazz? pop? alternative?
  88. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: yeah, I'm thinking of something shorter as a heading
  89. # [14:02] <gsnedders> Julian: MikeSmith is like me, he likes random stuff
  90. # [14:02] <gsnedders> It's rather problematic looking for music :)
  91. # [14:02] <Julian> very well
  92. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> Julian: yeah, what gsnedders - anything at all
  93. # [14:02] <Julian> pop recommendation: http://www.amazon.com/The-Smallest-Acts-Of-Kindness/dp/B001GEQRW4/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1228049894&sr=8-8
  94. # [14:02] <Philip> MikeSmith: This was in the days of MIDI, so it's not exactly a major exercise in musical composition :-)
  95. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> Philip: aha
  96. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> Julian: thanks, looking now
  97. # [14:03] <Julian> jazz/chanson: http://www.amazon.com/Norwegian-Wood-Kari-Bremnes/dp/B00004YS1F/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1228050102&sr=8-1
  98. # [14:03] <Philip> MikeSmith: "Permissible contexts"?
  99. # [14:03] <Julian> alternative: http://www.amazon.com/World-Saved-Stina-Nordenstam/dp/B00008OJTO/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1228049874&sr=8-3
  100. # [14:03] <Philip> MikeSmith: (or "permitted contexts")
  101. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> Philip: yeah, that looks clear enough and short
  102. # [14:04] * MikeSmith is now listening to Suburban Kids with Biblical Names
  103. # [14:08] * MikeSmith finds no MP3 previews on Stina Nordenstam
  104. # [14:09] <marcos> gsnedders: unbiased journalism is an oxymoron
  105. # [14:10] * MikeSmith switches to Stina Nordenstam channel on Last.fm.. listening to "Winter Killing"
  106. # [14:14] <Julian> and for hose remembering Propaganda and OMD: http://www.amazon.com/Instead-Onetwo/dp/B000MGB0BK/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1228050745&sr=8-1
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  108. # [14:26] <gsnedders> Hixie: XBL2 breaks ISO2145! :'(
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  111. # [15:04] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: I have to say that I can't say I like much the extremely longness of the generated IDs your specgen script makes
  112. # [15:04] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: It's a feature, not a bug!
  113. # [15:05] <MikeSmith> yeah, I guess I have to say the real beef I have with it is that I don't like much the practice of having a script generating IDs at all
  114. # [15:06] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: The question is where you limit it, and how do you keep the ID stable (as it could become unstable if too short as it's more likely to conflict)?
  115. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> I think choice of IDs should be something the author does explicitly
  116. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: yeah, the solution is to use proper author-selected IDs in the source
  117. # [15:06] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Yeah, HTML 5 tends to do that in most cases where it would be really long
  118. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#common-conformance-requirements-for-apis-exposed-to-javascript
  119. # [15:06] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  120. # [15:06] <gsnedders> (There are exceptions no)
  121. # [15:06] <gsnedders> *though
  122. # [15:07] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#an-image-in-an-e-mail-or-document-intended-for-a-specific-person-who-is-known-to-be-able-to-view-images
  123. # [15:07] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  124. # [15:07] <Lachy> MikeSmith, forcing the author to mint IDs would be a pain
  125. # [15:07] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: yeah, plenty of exceptions
  126. # [15:07] <MikeSmith> Lachy: so instead the pain gets passed on to the users
  127. # [15:07] <gsnedders> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#no — counter-example
  128. # [15:07] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  129. # [15:08] <Lachy> if Hixie was forced to mint IDs for everything in the spec, it would be extremely difficult to keep track of them all and avoid conflicts
  130. # [15:08] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Peh! URIs can be infinitely long! Infinitely long URIs really are a pain!
  131. # [15:08] <Lachy> but the spec gen does allow the author to provide a custom ID if they want
  132. # [15:09] <gsnedders> http://hg.gsnedders.com/anolis/raw-file/1.0RC3/README.html#id-generation
  133. # [15:09] <Lachy> like he does for, e.g. #video
  134. # [15:09] <pimpbot> Title: Anolis 1.0 (at hg.gsnedders.com)
  135. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I well understand it's a logistical pain, but I don't think most people would judge the above examples to be particularly user-friendly
  136. # [15:13] <MikeSmith> but stepping back, perhaps it's an indication that those headings themselves are longer than they should be
  137. # [15:14] <MikeSmith> at least in teh case of the latter
  138. # [15:14] <Julian> It appears to replicating section titles into IDs indicates that we need more powerfil fragment identifiers (ducks)
  139. # [15:14] <Julian> s/to/to me that/
  140. # [15:16] <gsnedders> Julian: Like having titles automatically being used for fragment ids?
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  142. # [15:16] <gsnedders> ah shit
  143. # [15:17] <gsnedders> more breakage :\
  144. # [15:17] <Julian> xpointer
  145. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> xpointer was DOA
  146. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> but it would really be great to have is a system for addressing/sharing fragment IDs that doesn't rely on the author providing thema
  147. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> them
  148. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> some practical
  149. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> which rules out xpointer
  150. # [15:19] <MikeSmith> "something practical", I meant to write
  151. # [15:20] <Julian> yep
  152. # [15:21] * Philip 's way of identifying parts of the spec without needing IDs is to copy the entire sentence/paragraph that is of interest, and then you can search through the document to work out where the quote came from
  153. # [15:21] <Philip> but that's even more verbose and even less stable
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  155. # [15:25] <Dashiva> Stable is all up to the author. Nothing prevents him from switching around ids either
  156. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: nothing except that value of providing readers of the doc with stable URLs that won't break
  157. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> though I do have to say that I think having the excessively long IDs is infinitely better than what Bert's postprocessor does
  158. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> that is, truncating and sequentially numbering generated IDs that share the same base string
  159. # [15:29] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: That was mine and Hixie's conclusion too, which is why I do that
  160. # [15:29] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: No, it's far more complex what Bert's does :)
  161. # [15:30] <Dashiva> But that value applies to documents without ids as well, for knowing which sections you've read and which contain interesting parts
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  163. # [15:31] <gsnedders> see genid.c in <http://www.w3.org/Tools/HTML-XML-utils/html-xml-utils-5.1.tar.gz>
  164. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> among the problem with Bert's ID solution is that the IDs don't break when they should. that is, the first time you visit the doc and bookmark a part that a #script-4 (or whatever), and some other script-something heading gets added before it, it re-orders all the script-* IDs and now your #script-4 bookmark points to something other than what you meant it to
  165. # [15:33] <gsnedders> It's just way to unstable. That's the main problem with it.
  166. # [15:33] <gsnedders> *too
  167. # [15:34] <gsnedders> Now, what was this about doing homework today? :)
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  170. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> the content model for the input element is the very best example of in the world of why it's a monumentally bad idea to designing a vocabulary with elements that have multiple @type subtypes, instead of just making them separate elements
  171. # [16:06] <MikeSmith> ..
  172. # [16:06] <MikeSmith> for anybody who cares, I added an additional per-element subsection to the "markup" draft
  173. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> "Permitted contexts"
  174. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> e.g.:
  175. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/#legend-context
  176. # [16:07] <pimpbot> Title: HTML: The Markup Language (at www.w3.org)
  177. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> there are some elements for which it's not yet showing the correct information
  178. # [16:08] <MikeSmith> (because I still need to write some special-case handling for them)
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  180. # [16:14] <Philip> MikeSmith: But it wasn't a problem with DTDs, because the content model didn't care about the values of attributes, and HTML was being designed for DTDs and so it wasn't a problem for HTML
  181. # [16:15] <Philip> MikeSmith: Also, WF2's new type values are a good example of why you should have a single element with multiple @type subtypes, because that subtyping is useful for backward-compatibility since old UAs can ignore the new subtype and just consider the main type
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The end :)