/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-12-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Dec 01 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  16. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> hmm, bugzilla getting spammed
  17. # [04:14] <Lachy> at least the domain name that the spammer is using (scam.com) is honest
  18. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> Lachy: heh, yeah, strange that he uses such an obvious domain name
  19. # [04:16] * MikeSmith email sysreq
  20. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> seems he's posted to other groups bugzilla as well -
  21. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6066#c2
  22. # [04:17] <pimpbot> 6066: fsasaki@w3.org, P2, NEW, Requirement "Covering variations across locales"
  23. # [04:19] <Lachy> damn, he's still spamming. He just spammed my authoring guide bug
  24. # [04:20] <Lachy> doesn't bugzilla have any sort of spam detection or at least flood protection?
  25. # [04:22] <MikeSmith> Lachy: dunno. I hope so. I know very little about bugzilla admin, and this is the first time I've seen spam on ours.
  26. # [04:22] <MikeSmith> Lachy: btw, while I'm thinking of it, do you know if David Storey is back in Oslo yet?
  27. # [04:33] <Lachy> I don't know
  28. # [05:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: please ping me when you back and have a few minutes
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  33. # [09:13] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ping
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  36. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: apologies if I asked you this before, but I have a question about the content model for datalist in the whattf.org schema
  37. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> I seem to vaguely remember asking before
  38. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> the datalist.attrs model
  39. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> the schema has this:
  40. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> datalist.attrs =
  41. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> ( common.attrs
  42. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> & common-form.attrs.data?
  43. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> )
  44. # [09:44] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like something that's no longer in the spec
  45. # [09:45] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#data
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  47. # [09:45] <pimpbot> Title: Web Forms 2.0 (at www.whatwg.org)
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  49. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, looks like it's gone completely in the HTML5 draft
  50. # [09:50] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: gone in svn, too, now
  51. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> cools
  52. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> cool
  53. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> gone from form and select also?
  54. # [09:50] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes
  55. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> great
  56. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: another question I wanted to ask is about the names of some of the common-form.attrs.* patterns
  57. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> so you've got a common-form.attrs pattern
  58. # [09:53] <hsivonen> speaking of those, I should zap inputmode
  59. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> yah
  60. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> so the definition of that pattern is:
  61. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> common-form.attrs =
  62. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> (name? & disabled?) & form? & (oninput? & oninvalid?)
  63. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> and the actual pattern name for, e.g., disabled attribute is "common-form.attrs.disabled"
  64. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> but you've also got some forms attributes that aren't part of the definition of "common-form.attrs"
  65. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> e.g., common-form.attrs.size
  66. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> those aren't actually part of any common/shared pattern
  67. # [09:56] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: do you have suggestions for another name for one of those groups?
  68. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: no great suggestion. for now in the markup draft, I just put them into a "Shared form attributes" section
  69. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/#shared-form-attrs
  70. # [09:57] <pimpbot> Title: HTML: The Markup Language (at www.w3.org)
  71. # [09:58] <hsivonen> ok. I'll use 'shared'
  72. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> OK
  73. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> that'll allow me to remove some special-case kludgey conditional stuff I added to distinguish them from the common-form.attrs.* attributes that are actually part of the common-form.attrs pattern
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  75. # [10:03] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: is the naming of the event handler patterns a problem, too?
  76. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: dunno. I've not checked those
  77. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> none of the naming discrepancies are a big problem for me
  78. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> it's just a naming nit -- that some of them could be better named if want to take time to do it
  79. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> at some point I may get you a list, just based on looking through my script to see where I've got places to catch them
  80. # [10:07] <hsivonen> ok
  81. # [10:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: checked in
  82. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> thanks
  83. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, I added per-element "Permitted contexts" subsections
  84. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> e.g.:
  85. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/#legend-context
  86. # [10:11] <pimpbot> Title: HTML: The Markup Language (at www.w3.org)
  87. # [10:14] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: nice
  88. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: just synced up to your latest sources. looks like you still have "common-form.attrs.form" in there. Is that intentional?
  89. # [10:17] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: where?
  90. # [10:18] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: oh. but wasn't that one supposed to remain as 'common'?
  91. # [10:18] <hsivonen> although fieldset is a special cas
  92. # [10:18] <hsivonen> e
  93. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> hmm, dunno, at least it's not part of the common-form.attrs pattern
  94. # [10:20] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it is at the top of web-forms2.rnc
  95. # [10:20] <hsivonen> commen-form.attrs &=
  96. # [10:20] <hsivonen> ( common-form.attrs.form? )
  97. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> oh, yeah
  98. # [10:20] <hsivonen> oooh typo
  99. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  100. # [10:21] <hsivonen> fix checked in
  101. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> thanks
  102. # [10:21] * MikeSmith re-syncs
  103. # [10:26] <hsivonen> Is there any scripting API that allows the detection of UA style sheet rule that would match a given element without having that kind of element in the DOM tree?
  104. # [10:27] <hsivonen> i.e. could UA style sheet rules be loaded lazily on element node creation without affecting anything that is black-box observable?
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  120. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the whattf.org schema defines dl.inner.phrasing and ol.inner.phrasing, but those don't actually seems to be referenced by any other patterns
  121. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> em, strike that
  122. # [12:11] * MikeSmith looks again
  123. # [12:12] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: for ol and ul there may be some latent patterns waiting for Hixie to spec a <span>-based hack for intra-paragraph lists
  124. # [12:13] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK. for the record, the orphaned patterns are dl.elem.phrasing and ol.elem.phrasing (those reference the *.inner.* patterns I mentioned)
  125. # [12:14] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
  126. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so, you plan to keep those in there for now? the only reason I noticed they are unreferenced was that the handling for the "Permitted contexts" sections is catching them
  127. # [12:15] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'll remove them
  128. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> OK
  129. # [12:16] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: is ul.elem.phrasing orphaned, too?
  130. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: hang on a second, lemme see
  131. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, seems so
  132. # [12:17] <hsivonen> ok
  133. # [12:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: checked in
  134. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> thanks
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  138. # [13:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: when you have a chance, while we are on li parents, I wanted to ask about the menu content model - specifically, the menu.inner > mli.elem.phrasing > mli.inner.phrasing > common.inner.phrasing chain
  139. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> I can't see where the current spec constrains li in menu to phrasing content
  140. # [13:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it's possible that the schema is bogus after Hixie's recent changes
  141. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> OK
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  143. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: as far as I can see from the current HTML5 draft, there's no difference at all between the content model ul/li and menu/li -- only ol/li is different (because of the value attribute) .. also, menu is currently spec'ed as "Either: Zero or more li elements. Or: Flow content."
  144. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> so menu.inner could just be defined as:
  145. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> menu.inner =
  146. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> ( li.elem.*
  147. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> | common.inner.flow
  148. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> )
  149. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> I think
  150. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: hmm, all that assumes that menu/li should also have the same ARIA attribute model as ul/li
  151. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> you currently have li.attrs =
  152. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> common.attrs & (common.attrs.aria | common.attrs.aria.implicit.listitem)?
  153. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> but
  154. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> mli.attrs =
  155. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> common.attrs
  156. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> (that is, no ARIA attributes on menu/li
  157. # [14:09] <hsivonen> good point
  158. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> even then, if you keep a separate definition for mli, it seems it should at least be mli.elem and not mli.elem.phrasing
  159. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> I see you got an unreferenced mli.elem in there already
  160. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> so I guess easiest thing to do if it seems like you need to preserve a separate content model for menu/li is just switch menu.inner to reference mli.elem instead of mli.elem.phrasing
  161. # [14:16] <hsivonen> checked in
  162. # [14:25] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ok
  163. # [14:38] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: how about common.inner.phrasing -> common.inner.flow in menu.inner ?
  164. # [14:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: fixed
  165. # [14:42] <MikeSmith> thanks
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  170. # [15:12] * MikeSmith gets a note from systeam saying that bugzilla spam has been removed
  171. # [15:13] <Lachy> MikeSmith, it might be a good idea to get sysreq to mark these messages as spam too http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2008Dec/0013.html
  172. # [15:13] <pimpbot> Title: [Bug 5852] Incorporate Entity Reference Table into Authoring Guide from bugzillawiggum.w3.org on 2008-12-01 (public-html-bugzilla@w3.org from December 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  173. # [15:14] <MikeSmith> they removed from the spam with a SQL "delete from..." , so I guess there's not an admin UI in bugzilla for it
  174. # [15:14] <Lachy> and do the same on other relevant list archives that receive bugzilla messages
  175. # [15:15] <Lachy> yeah, I assumed the mailing list archives and bugzilla would have different UI
  176. # [15:15] <marcos_> Reading, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Sep/0004.html, I'm wondering if we should apply to the WWW Foundation for enough money to pay for some full-time editors for HTML5 for 2 years. Or attempt to start our own non-profit foundation for editors :)
  177. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I think there's a policy of not removing anything from the mail archive unless it has sensitive info in it of some kind. or if the person who posted it specifically requests it
  178. # [15:16] <Lachy> marcos_, first we need to find capable editors who aren't already editing specs, who would be willing to do the job
  179. # [15:17] <Lachy> MikeSmith, I'm fairly sure W3C's policy has a special way of dealing with spam on the list archive
  180. # [15:17] <MikeSmith> ok
  181. # [15:17] * Lachy goes to find an example
  182. # [15:17] <marcos_> There are plenty of people who could do it. Hypothetically speaking, would you quit your job to work on specs full time if a foundation could match your current pay?
  183. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> anyway, as far as bugzilla goes, all the stuff that jaggass spammed within bugzilla today is gone at least
  184. # [15:19] <MikeSmith> marcos_: would depend on if I'd also have to quit my side job as a gigolo
  185. # [15:19] <marcos_> hehe
  186. # [15:19] <marcos_> don't worry Mike, the foundation would be setup specifically to match your gigolo activities 1 to 1.
  187. # [15:20] <MikeSmith> excellent, that's my real money job anyway. my day job pays my bus fare
  188. # [15:21] <marcos_> :)
  189. # [15:26] <Lachy> MikeSmith, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-xml-query-comments/2005Nov/0000.html
  190. # [15:26] <pimpbot> Title: Question from eBay Member from eBay on 2005-11-21 (www-xml-query-comments@w3.org from November 2005) (at lists.w3.org)
  191. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> Lachy: thanks
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  204. # [16:42] <gsnedders> it's cold 'ere
  205. # [16:44] <anne> are you in Oslo?
  206. # [16:46] <Philip> It's cold here too, and I'm nowhere as interesting as that :-(
  207. # [16:46] <gsnedders> anne: no
  208. # [16:46] <anne> then don't complain :p
  209. # [16:46] <gsnedders> anne: St Andrews, on the "warm" east coast of Scotland
  210. # [16:47] <anne> actually, it's not that bad here
  211. # [16:47] <gsnedders> -3°C in Oslo
  212. # [16:47] <gsnedders> |-3|°C here :P
  213. # [16:48] <Philip> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/dtg/weather/daily-graph.cgi?today here - looks like that's around 4'C
  214. # [16:48] <pimpbot> Title: Computer Laboratory: Digital Technology Group (at www.cl.cam.ac.uk)
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The end :)