/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-12-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Dec 04 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  8. # [01:46] <pimpbot> planet: How to evaluate Web Applications security designs? <http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/12/web_applications_security_requ.html>
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  29. # [05:34] <MikeSmith> @planet
  30. # [05:34] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: How to evaluate Web Applications security designs? <http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/12/web_applications_security_requ.html> ** HTML5 Parsing in Gecko: A Build <http://hsivonen.iki.fi/html5-gecko-build/> ** HTML5 in Gecko <http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/12/03/HTML5-in-Gecko> ** WebKit's week - #6 <http://hanblog.info/blog/post/2008/11/28/WebKit-s-week-6> ** Dev.Opera: Creating pseudo (16 more messages)
  31. # [05:35] <MikeSmith> .t EST
  32. # [05:35] <phenny> Wed, 03 Dec 2008 23:33:37 EST
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  48. # [06:21] <MikeSmith> .t CET
  49. # [06:21] <phenny> Thu, 04 Dec 2008 06:19:54 CET
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  51. # [06:32] <MikeSmith> heycam: what's the timezone abbreviation for where you are?
  52. # [06:38] <heycam> it's EST
  53. # [06:38] <heycam> which unfortunately clashes with US EST :)
  54. # [06:38] <heycam> sometimes people use AEST
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  56. # [06:39] <heycam> "Australia/Melbourne" works, too
  57. # [06:40] <heycam> with e.g.: $ TZ=Australia/Melbourne date
  58. # [06:40] <heycam> (which is how i usually determine the current time somewhere)
  59. # [06:40] <heycam> tho actually it's DST here.... so make that EDT or AEDT
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  62. # [06:50] <MikeSmith> .t AEST
  63. # [06:50] <phenny> Thu, 04 Dec 2008 15:48:58 AEST
  64. # [06:50] <pimpbot> planet: Compatibility View Improvements to come in IE8 <http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/12/03/compatibility-view-improvements-to-come-in-ie8.aspx>
  65. # [06:50] <MikeSmith> .t DST
  66. # [06:50] <phenny> MikeSmith: Sorry, I don't know about the 'DST' timezone.
  67. # [06:50] <MikeSmith> .t AEDT
  68. # [06:50] <phenny> Thu, 04 Dec 2008 16:49:29 AEDT
  69. # [06:51] <heycam> cool
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  91. # [13:24] <MikeSmith> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/presto-2-2-and-opera-10-a-first-look/#selectorsapi
  92. # [13:24] <pimpbot> Title: Presto 2.2 and Opera 10 — a first look - Opera Developer Community (at dev.opera.com)
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  109. # [17:31] * tlr is now known as tlr-bbiab
  110. # [17:54] * DanC is finishing some TAG business; might be late to HTML WG telcon
  111. # [17:54] <anne> oh right
  112. # [17:55] <anne> DanC, I tried commenting on your QA blog entry btw
  113. # [17:55] <DanC> ah; good. I prolly should have sent mail to the webapps comments list 1st
  114. # [17:57] <anne> oh, we've got feed readers
  115. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
  116. # [17:58] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  117. # [17:58] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  118. # [17:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  119. # [17:58] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
  120. # [17:58] <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
  121. # [17:58] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
  122. # [17:58] <trackbot> Date: 04 December 2008
  123. # [17:58] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.102)
  124. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> Chair: MikeSmith
  125. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> Zakim, code?
  126. # [17:58] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MikeSmith
  127. # [17:58] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  128. # [17:58] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  129. # [17:58] <Zakim> Attendees were
  130. # [17:58] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  131. # [17:59] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  132. # [17:59] <Zakim> +Christiane_Fellbaum
  133. # [17:59] <ChrisWilson> zakim, microsoft is me
  134. # [17:59] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
  135. # [17:59] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
  136. # [17:59] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson
  137. # [17:59] <ChrisWilson> wow, that's weird.
  138. # [17:59] <Zakim> +Adam
  139. # [17:59] <ChrisWilson> zakim, who is on the phone?
  140. # [17:59] <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisWilson, Christiane_Fellbaum, Adam
  141. # [18:00] * anne will be there in a few minutes
  142. # [18:00] <Zakim> -Christiane_Fellbaum
  143. # [18:00] <ChrisWilson> Mike, are you joining on the telephone?
  144. # [18:00] <Zakim> +Julian
  145. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson: yeah, in one minute
  146. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
  147. # [18:02] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  148. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Mike
  149. # [18:02] * tlr-bbiab is now known as tlr
  150. # [18:03] <MikeSmith> Topic: Agenda review
  151. # [18:03] <Julian> agenda: maybe the charter issue?
  152. # [18:03] * DanC Zakim, who's on the phone?
  153. # [18:03] * Zakim sees on the phone: ChrisWilson, Adam, Julian, Mike
  154. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Christiane_Fellbaum
  155. # [18:04] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-work
  156. # [18:04] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  157. # [18:04] <Zakim> +DanC
  158. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> Julian: charter issue?
  159. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2008OctDec/0011.html
  160. # [18:05] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG telcon 2008-12-04 - headers attribute, Origin header from Michael(tm) Smith on 2008-12-03 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from October to December 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  161. # [18:05] * Joins: Joshue (Joshue@86.45.197.24)
  162. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  163. # [18:05] <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisWilson, Adam, Julian, Mike, Christiane_Fellbaum, DanC
  164. # [18:06] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.17.190.200) (Quit: Leaving...)
  165. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> Regrets: ShawnMedero, DaveSinger
  166. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +2
  167. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  168. # [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisWilson, Adam, Julian, Mike, Christiane_Fellbaum, DanC, +2
  169. # [18:06] <Joshue> zakim, ++ 2 is Joshue
  170. # [18:06] <Zakim> I don't understand '++ 2 is Joshue', Joshue
  171. # [18:06] * Joins: abarth (abarth@67.180.199.65)
  172. # [18:06] <DanC> Zakim, +2 is Joshue
  173. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
  174. # [18:07] * Joshue ta dan
  175. # [18:07] * DanC wonders if Zakim has the agenda...
  176. # [18:07] <DanC> Zakim, agenda?
  177. # [18:07] <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
  178. # [18:07] <Zakim> 5. discuss ping [from ChrisWilson]
  179. # [18:07] * DanC suspect that's leftover
  180. # [18:07] <DanC> Zakim, clear agenda
  181. # [18:07] <Zakim> agenda cleared
  182. # [18:07] * Julian agrees
  183. # [18:08] * DanC gathers we're not using Zakim to track today's agenda
  184. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> Scribenick: MikeSmith
  185. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> [no additions to agenda]
  186. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> Topic: headers attribute
  187. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> Joshue: we are basically waiting until Hixie makes movement on this
  188. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> ... we could talk about Ben Millard's recent messages [but perhaps not necessary]
  189. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Dec/0004.html
  190. # [18:10] <pimpbot> Title: Comparison of Smart Headers and HTML5 (ACTION-85) from Ben Millard on 2008-12-01 (public-html@w3.org from December 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  191. # [18:11] * Joins: collinjackson (chatzilla@66.180.186.12)
  192. # [18:11] <DanC> ACTION-84?
  193. # [18:11] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-84
  194. # [18:11] <trackbot> ACTION-84 -- Joshue O Connor to prepare status report on @headers discussion by next week -- due 2008-11-19 -- OPEN
  195. # [18:11] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/84
  196. # [18:11] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-84 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  197. # [18:11] <DanC> action-84: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Dec/0004.html
  198. # [18:11] * trackbot attempting to add comment notes to ACTION-84.
  199. # [18:11] <pimpbot> Title: Comparison of Smart Headers and HTML5 (ACTION-85) from Ben Millard on 2008-12-01 (public-html@w3.org from December 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  200. # [18:11] <trackbot> ACTION-84 Prepare status report on @headers discussion by next week notes added
  201. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> Julian: so that action is done and can be closed (action 84)
  202. # [18:11] * DanC is a little confused... 84 vs 85...
  203. # [18:11] <anne> Zakim, passcode?
  204. # [18:11] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
  205. # [18:12] <Zakim> +??P0
  206. # [18:12] <anne> Zakim, P0 is me
  207. # [18:12] <Zakim> sorry, anne, I do not recognize a party named 'P0'
  208. # [18:12] <anne> Zakim, ??P0 is me
  209. # [18:12] <Zakim> +anne; got it
  210. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> s/Julian: so/Joshue: /
  211. # [18:12] <Lachy> hi
  212. # [18:12] <DanC> action-85?
  213. # [18:12] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-85
  214. # [18:12] <trackbot> ACTION-85 -- Ben Millard to compare "Smart Headers" with HTML5 algorithm -- due 2008-12-01 -- OPEN
  215. # [18:12] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/85
  216. # [18:12] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-85 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  217. # [18:12] <DanC> q+
  218. # [18:12] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  219. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> ack DanC
  220. # [18:12] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  221. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> DanC: looking at action-85, I see a forward from Laura Carlson
  222. # [18:13] * Lachy is dialing in
  223. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> ... saw an admin message that Laura Carlson had left the group. Do we know why?
  224. # [18:13] <Zakim> +??P8
  225. # [18:14] <Lachy> Zakim, I am ??P8
  226. # [18:14] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
  227. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> Joshue: I think she's had some other things that are taking a lot of her time.
  228. # [18:14] <Zakim> + +1.650.858.aabb
  229. # [18:14] <DanC> Zakim, aabb is John_Mitchell
  230. # [18:14] <Zakim> +John_Mitchell; got it
  231. # [18:15] <Zakim> +Murray_Maloney
  232. # [18:15] * Joins: Dsinger_ (mobile@32.158.149.85)
  233. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> DanC: somewhere in WCAG 2.0, there's an example of this technique
  234. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> Joshue: otoh, dunno
  235. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  236. # [18:16] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  237. # [18:17] <DanC> (photo of Ben? have I met him?)
  238. # [18:17] <Zakim> -Murray_Maloney
  239. # [18:17] <Lachy> DanC, photos of Ben here http://projectcerbera.com/me/
  240. # [18:17] <pimpbot> Title: About Me - Project Cerbera (at projectcerbera.com)
  241. # [18:17] <Zakim> +Murray_Maloney
  242. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> http://sitesurgeon.co.uk/
  243. # [18:18] <pimpbot> Title: Site Surgeon (at sitesurgeon.co.uk)
  244. # [18:18] <DanC> found the example from wcag 2 http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H43.html
  245. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> Ben Millard ↑
  246. # [18:18] <pimpbot> Title: H43: Using id and headers attributes to associate data cells with header cells in data tables | Techniques for WCAG 2.0 (at www.w3.org)
  247. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> DanC: Joshue, can you take a look at that (H43)?
  248. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> [Joshue takes a look]
  249. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> DanC: I understand that represents something that is fairly widely practiced.
  250. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> DanC: so Ben's comparison doesn't say anything one way or the other about H43?
  251. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> Julian: yeah
  252. # [18:20] * DanC Zakim, who's making noise?
  253. # [18:20] * Zakim DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Joshue (52%)
  254. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> s/Julian: yeah/Joshue: yeah/
  255. # [18:20] <DanC> issue-20?
  256. # [18:20] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-20
  257. # [18:20] <trackbot> ISSUE-20 -- Improvements to the table-headers algorithm in the HTML 5 spec -- OPEN
  258. # [18:20] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/20
  259. # [18:20] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-20 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  260. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> Joshue: but worth looking at, definitely .. relevant to what we're doing
  261. # [18:21] <Joshue> zakim, mute me
  262. # [18:21] <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
  263. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> DanC: I understand that people marking up complex financial data use that technique
  264. # [18:21] <DanC> my earlier work where I got a thumbs-down from a validator: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0334.html
  265. # [18:21] <pimpbot> Title: headers on th too or just td? from Dan Connolly on 2008-06-26 (public-html@w3.org from June 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  266. # [18:22] <Joshue> zakim, unmute me
  267. # [18:22] <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
  268. # [18:22] <Joshue> +q
  269. # [18:22] * Zakim sees Joshue on the speaker queue
  270. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: Hixie has the ball on this.
  271. # [18:22] <DanC> action-87?
  272. # [18:22] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-87
  273. # [18:22] <trackbot> ACTION-87 -- Michael(tm) Smith to ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages -- due 2008-12-04 -- OPEN
  274. # [18:22] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/87
  275. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> (MikeSmith is supposed to have an action on this.)
  276. # [18:22] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-87 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  277. # [18:22] <DanC> action-87 due next week
  278. # [18:22] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-87.
  279. # [18:22] <trackbot> ACTION-87 Ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages due date now next week
  280. # [18:23] * DanC audio nak
  281. # [18:24] * Quits: Dsinger_ (mobile@32.158.149.85) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://rooms.derflash.de)
  282. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> Joshue: comparison of smart-headers algo to HTML5 is valuable, but we still have the issue of how to mark up.. two separate issues
  283. # [18:24] <DanC> (two separate issues? hmm. I'm not following closely enough to see that.)
  284. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> Joshue: HTML5 still does not allow chained headers, and without that, it's difficult to mark up complex tables
  285. # [18:26] <Lachy> The smart headers algorithm handles that H43 without the headers attribute
  286. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> Joshue: there are some different suggestions on the wiki about how to mark up chained headers
  287. # [18:26] <anne> (you blogged about it)
  288. # [18:26] <Lachy> what's this origin stuff about?
  289. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> close action-84
  290. # [18:27] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-84.
  291. # [18:27] <trackbot> ACTION-84 Prepare status report on @headers discussion by next week closed
  292. # [18:27] * Joshue Mike please Close action 84..
  293. # [18:27] * Joshue ta
  294. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> Topic: Origin header
  295. # [18:27] <anne> Lachy, I'm guessing it's about the HTTP header defined by Access Control
  296. # [18:27] <Lachy> oh
  297. # [18:28] <abarth> (i'm on the call, btw)
  298. # [18:28] <anne> hey abarth!
  299. # [18:28] <abarth> hi anne
  300. # [18:28] <MikeSmith> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-November/017593.html
  301. # [18:28] <pimpbot> Title: [whatwg] CSRFs and Origin header and s (at lists.whatwg.org)
  302. # [18:29] <collinjackson> I'm on the call too
  303. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-November/thread.html#17593
  304. # [18:29] <pimpbot> Title: The whatwg November 2008 Archive by thread (at lists.whatwg.org)
  305. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> http://crypto.stanford.edu/websec/specs/origin-header/
  306. # [18:29] <pimpbot> Title: Origin Header for CSRF Mitigation (at crypto.stanford.edu)
  307. # [18:29] <Zakim> -Joshue
  308. # [18:29] * Joshue gotta go, bye
  309. # [18:29] * Quits: Joshue (Joshue@86.45.197.24) (Quit: Quitting!)
  310. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> "This document describes the use of the Origin header for mitigating cross-site request forgery (CSRF) vulnerabilities in web sites. To help sites defend against CSRF attacks, user agents send a Origin header with HTTP requests that identities the origin that initiated the request. If the user agent cannot determine the origin, the user agents sends the value null."
  311. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> ..
  312. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> "I'm not sure if the HTTP spec is the most appropriate place because
  313. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> the spec has a dependency on HTML 5 to compute the ASCII serialization
  314. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> of the origin.
  315. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> "
  316. # [18:30] <DanC> compute it from what, I wonder. sigh. struggling to keep up
  317. # [18:31] <Julian> q+
  318. # [18:31] * Zakim sees Joshue, Julian on the speaker queue
  319. # [18:31] <MikeSmith> ack Julian
  320. # [18:31] * Zakim sees Joshue on the speaker queue
  321. # [18:31] <abarth> DanC compute it from a URL
  322. # [18:31] <anne> well, from an origin
  323. # [18:31] <DanC> ah. thanks. clearly that can be separated from HTML
  324. # [18:31] <MikeSmith> Julian: HTTPbis wg is not chartered to add anything new to the protocol
  325. # [18:31] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@71.204.152.23) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  326. # [18:31] <MikeSmith> ... so it would not be a work item of the HTTPbis WG
  327. # [18:31] <anne> and origin depends on browsing contexts and scripting contexts and such
  328. # [18:31] <DanC> compute an origin from an origin?
  329. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> ... we would need to talk to one of the App Area directors
  330. # [18:32] <anne> you compute a serialization
  331. # [18:32] <DanC> ok
  332. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> ... isn't Lisa D. in the loop on this already?
  333. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: yeah, I think so.
  334. # [18:32] * Julian does't like "null" where a origin name is allowed as well; would be nice if the syntax would be less ambiguous
  335. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> abarth: basic idea is to help sites defend themselves against CRSF attacks
  336. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> ... there are some issues on trying to do this with the Refer header
  337. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> ...
  338. # [18:33] <DanC> (how does/would Referer mitigate CSRF attacks? I'm short a few clues.)
  339. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> abarth: there's an experimental implementation in WebKit
  340. # [18:34] <anne> (Referer is often filtered out or simply not included as it included privacy sensitive path information)
  341. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> abarth: the Refer header implicates who sent the request
  342. # [18:34] * Julian would prefer not to special case GET and HEAD; it should just talk about modifying state
  343. # [18:35] <DanC> (attacker.com sends a request to vicitim.net via browser... referer shows victim.net that request comes from attacker.com)
  344. # [18:35] <collinjackson> Julian: null is not a valid URL, so it's not really ambiguous
  345. # [18:36] <MikeSmith> abarth: Origin in that case would point to attacker.com
  346. # [18:36] <anne> collinjackson, in theory it could be a valid origin, no?
  347. # [18:36] <Julian> collinjackson: I'd prefer something like: "none" | "<" URL ">"
  348. # [18:36] <anne> collinjackson, sorry, nm me
  349. # [18:36] * anne was thinking of domain names for some silly reason
  350. # [18:36] <MikeSmith> abarth: when you include a script, it becomes part of the current document
  351. # [18:37] * DanC Zakim, who's making noise?
  352. # [18:37] * Zakim DanC, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: Adam (17%)
  353. # [18:37] <MikeSmith> ... just as if you embedded it in the document
  354. # [18:37] <MikeSmith> abarth: there are some situations where the UA gets confused about what the origin is
  355. # [18:38] * DanC audio nak
  356. # [18:38] <MikeSmith> abarth: attacker can cause a Referer header to be omitted from a request
  357. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> abarth: Origin solves that problem by adding two states
  358. # [18:39] <anne> Julian, either way is unambiguous
  359. # [18:40] <DanC> "If the user agent issues an HTTP request to one origin in response to an HTTP redirect from another origin, that HTTP request MUST NOT include a non-null Origin header. If the redirected request had an Origin header, the user agent SHOULD include an null Origin header in the request to the new origin."
  360. # [18:40] <DanC> -- http://crypto.stanford.edu/websec/specs/origin-header/
  361. # [18:40] <pimpbot> Title: Origin Header for CSRF Mitigation (at crypto.stanford.edu)
  362. # [18:40] <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/TR/access-control/
  363. # [18:40] <pimpbot> Title: Access Control for Cross-Site Requests (at www.w3.org)
  364. # [18:40] <Lachy> DanC, http://www.w3.org/TR/access-control/#origin0
  365. # [18:40] <pimpbot> Title: Access Control for Cross-Site Requests (at www.w3.org)
  366. # [18:41] <anne> (The header is defined in the Access Control for Cross-Site Requests specification, see link above. Depends on origin definition in HTML5 though.)
  367. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=2524&to=2525
  368. # [18:42] <pimpbot> Title: (X)HTML5 Tracking (at html5.org)
  369. # [18:42] <DanC> (did the Origin: header appear in drafts previous to 12 September 2008 ? )
  370. # [18:42] * Joins: adele (adele@17.203.15.210)
  371. # [18:43] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52)
  372. # [18:43] <DanC> (I'm getting a better understanding of why hixie's spec was called "Web Applications")
  373. # [18:43] <Zakim> +James_Craig
  374. # [18:43] <dsinger> zakim, james_craig is [Apple]
  375. # [18:43] <Zakim> +[Apple]; got it
  376. # [18:43] <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
  377. # [18:43] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  378. # [18:43] <DanC> I don't see "origin" in the draft of 17 May 2006 http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-access-control-20060517/
  379. # [18:43] <pimpbot> Title: Authorizing Read Access to XML Content Using the Processing Instruction 1.0 (at www.w3.org)
  380. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> collinjackson: it was called Access-Control-Origin
  381. # [18:43] <Julian> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-access-control-20080214/#access-control-origin0
  382. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> ... before
  383. # [18:43] <pimpbot> Title: Access Control for Cross-site Requests (at www.w3.org)
  384. # [18:44] <anne> Access-Control-Allow-Origin is the "new" response header
  385. # [18:44] <anne> fwiw
  386. # [18:45] <DanC> (I don't see anything like origin: in any WD-access-control drafts previous to 20080912 )
  387. # [18:45] <MikeSmith> Julian: it doesn't seem like a very HTML-related feature to me
  388. # [18:45] <MikeSmith> ... seems generic to HTTP
  389. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> ... if it's standardized, it should be outside the HTML5 spec
  390. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> abarth: it relates closely to HTML5 because it depends on HTML5 for the definition of "origin"
  391. # [18:47] <Lachy> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/#origin
  392. # [18:47] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  393. # [18:47] <DanC> (what does SVG do about this stuff?)
  394. # [18:47] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  395. # [18:49] * Julian notes that the server requirement is really simple and doesn't require any knowledge of how it's computed
  396. # [18:49] <anne> DanC, currently not much
  397. # [18:49] <DanC> anybody know the rules for the HTTP header registry?
  398. # [18:49] <anne> meh, it seems I can't speak
  399. # [18:49] * DanC Zakim, who's on the phone?
  400. # [18:49] * Zakim sees on the phone: ChrisWilson, Adam, Julian, Mike, Christiane_Fellbaum, DanC, anne, Lachy, John_Mitchell, Murray_Maloney, [Apple]
  401. # [18:49] <abarth> DanC: my understanding is that the header is already registered
  402. # [18:49] * Zakim [Apple] has dsinger
  403. # [18:50] <anne> afaict the SVG situation is like HTML4
  404. # [18:50] <DanC> s/DanC:/DanC,/
  405. # [18:50] <dsinger> zakim, what is the number for [apple]?
  406. # [18:50] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, dsinger.
  407. # [18:50] <anne> details are not defined and browser vendors are inventing some kind of security model on top of it, using same origin and such for some features
  408. # [18:50] <MikeSmith> Julian: has Thomas Roessler been involved in this discussion?
  409. # [18:50] <dsinger> zakim, what number is [apple]?
  410. # [18:50] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, dsinger.
  411. # [18:50] <tlr> zakim, who is on the phone?
  412. # [18:50] <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisWilson, Adam, Julian, Mike, Christiane_Fellbaum, DanC, anne, Lachy, John_Mitchell, Murray_Maloney, [Apple]
  413. # [18:50] <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
  414. # [18:50] <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: he's aware of it, I've talked with him a bit
  415. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> tlr: can you join the call briefly?
  416. # [18:51] <tlr> zakim, call thomas-781
  417. # [18:51] <Zakim> ok, tlr; the call is being made
  418. # [18:51] <Zakim> +Thomas
  419. # [18:51] <DanC> well, abarth , origin: is not registered in http://www.iana.org/assignments/message-headers/perm-headers.html
  420. # [18:51] <pimpbot> Title: IANA | Permanent Message Header Field Registry (at www.iana.org)
  421. # [18:51] <DanC> I do see http://www.iana.org/assignments/message-headers/prov/access-control-allow-origin
  422. # [18:51] <anne> DanC, that was because IANA messed up
  423. # [18:51] * tlr says hi
  424. # [18:51] <anne> DanC, and they didn't reply to my follow-up e-mail so I guess I should try again at some point
  425. # [18:51] * anne sighs
  426. # [18:52] <DanC> is your follow-up email archived? I could perhaps escalate
  427. # [18:52] <anne> is iana@iana.org archived?
  428. # [18:52] <Julian> anne: what did they miss up? Are you complaining about the inability to unregister the old header name?
  429. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> tlr: the change to the HTML5 draft states what the Origin header should be set to under certain circumstances ...
  430. # [18:52] <anne> Julian, I'm complaining about them not registering a header that was in the registration template that's even archived on their site
  431. # [18:53] <MikeSmith> ... does not seem useful for those needing to deploy support on the server side
  432. # [18:53] * DanC wishes he could give this discussion his full attention, but I'm double-booked and will be 3-way booked in 9 minutes
  433. # [18:53] <anne> (I'm also annoyed by the not being able to unregister, but that's separate.)
  434. # [18:53] * Joins: Lionheart (robin@66.57.69.65)
  435. # [18:53] <MikeSmith> ... more needs to be done for this, and it would be better not to put it all in the HTML5 spec
  436. # [18:54] <DanC> I don't know of an archive for iana@iana.org, but there's some "datatracker" thingy that the IETF seems to be pretty good about w.r.t. accountability
  437. # [18:54] <anne> I can probably dig up the message number IANA gives back
  438. # [18:54] <DanC> my experience with iana@iana.org is that it's sort of notoriously unreliable.
  439. # [18:54] <MikeSmith> tlr: I think there are number of critical parties to this discussion, many of them are on this call
  440. # [18:55] * DanC what was the name tlr just gave? hartsock?
  441. # [18:55] <anne> (ticket number for my latest number is 206755)
  442. # [18:55] <anne> s/latest number/latest e-mail/
  443. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> ... we need to give the HTTP WG an opportunity to review this
  444. # [18:56] * anne wonders what all the fuss is about
  445. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> tlr: my conclusion is that it needs to be a document of its own
  446. # [18:56] <DanC> action DanC: look into anne's ticket 206755 from iana@iana.org somewhat related to http://www.iana.org/assignments/message-headers/prov/access-control-allow-origin
  447. # [18:56] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  448. # [18:56] * RRSAgent records action 5
  449. # [18:56] <trackbot> Created ACTION-88 - Look into anne's ticket 206755 from iana@iana.org somewhat related to http://www.iana.org/assignments/message-headers/prov/access-control-allow-origin [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-12-11].
  450. # [18:56] <collinjackson> tlr: would it be useful to write this up as an RFC?
  451. # [18:56] <anne> isn't there buy in already?
  452. # [18:56] <tlr> collin, don't know whether it's more useful to do this as an RFC than a Rec
  453. # [18:56] <DanC> (that's a slight abuse of the HTML WG tracker, but if we just leave it to my memory, I'm not confident I'll remember)
  454. # [18:57] <DanC> q+ re buy-in
  455. # [18:57] * Zakim sees Joshue, DanC on the speaker queue
  456. # [18:57] <DanC> q- Joshue
  457. # [18:57] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  458. # [18:57] <tlr> anne, mostly, but it makes sense to run it through a process to make sure we're not mistaken about that point.
  459. # [18:57] * anne I can hear, but can't speak
  460. # [18:57] * anne blames Ubuntu
  461. # [18:57] <DanC> . http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/2
  462. # [18:57] <pimpbot> Title: Details on Product HTML Principles/Requirements - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  463. # [18:57] * anne laughs
  464. # [18:58] <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: Adam, would you be willing to act as editor for a spec for this if we made it a work item in the WebApps WG?
  465. # [18:58] <DanC> issue-63?
  466. # [18:58] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-63
  467. # [18:58] <trackbot> ISSUE-63 -- Origin header: in scope? required for this release? -- RAISED
  468. # [18:58] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/63
  469. # [18:58] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-63 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  470. # [18:58] <MikeSmith> abarth: Yes
  471. # [18:58] * Quits: Lionheart (robin@66.57.69.65) (Quit: Leaving.)
  472. # [18:58] * anne true
  473. # [18:58] * Joins: Lionheart (robin@66.57.69.65)
  474. # [18:59] <DanC> ah. spif. thanks, adam
  475. # [18:59] * DanC thinks it's a bit of a shame to get all swapped in and then cut short, but I gotta go too
  476. # [19:00] <Zakim> -Lachy
  477. # [19:00] <DanC> mike, wanna make that an action re issue-63? that might help my tiny brain
  478. # [19:00] * DanC gotta go now.
  479. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> action: MikeSmith to make a proposal to the WebApps WG that we take this on as a work item there, with Adam Barth as the editor
  480. # [19:00] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  481. # [19:00] * RRSAgent records action 6
  482. # [19:00] <trackbot> Created ACTION-89 - Make a proposal to the WebApps WG that we take this on as a work item there, with Adam Barth as the editor [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2008-12-11].
  483. # [19:01] <MikeSmith> Topic: AOB?
  484. # [19:01] <MikeSmith> [none]
  485. # [19:01] <MikeSmith> Topic: Next week's call
  486. # [19:01] <MikeSmith> next week's call will be at the regular time, with Chris Wilson
  487. # [19:01] <Zakim> -Christiane_Fellbaum
  488. # [19:02] * Quits: Lionheart (robin@66.57.69.65) (Ping timeout)
  489. # [19:02] <MikeSmith> s/with Chris Wilson/with MikeSmith chairing/
  490. # [19:02] <MikeSmith> [adjourned]
  491. # [19:02] <Zakim> -Murray_Maloney
  492. # [19:02] <Zakim> -Julian
  493. # [19:02] <Zakim> -John_Mitchell
  494. # [19:02] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
  495. # [19:02] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  496. # [19:02] <Zakim> -Adam
  497. # [19:02] <Zakim> -anne
  498. # [19:02] * Joins: Lionheart (robin@66.57.69.65)
  499. # [19:02] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
  500. # [19:02] <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
  501. # [19:02] <Zakim> -Mike
  502. # [19:02] <Zakim> -Thomas
  503. # [19:02] <dsinger> zakim, +1.408.996.1010 is [Apple]
  504. # [19:02] <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named '+1.408.996.1010'
  505. # [19:03] <dsinger> zakim, +1.408.996.1010 is always [Apple]
  506. # [19:03] <Zakim> I don't understand '+1.408.996.1010 is always [Apple]', dsinger
  507. # [19:03] <dsinger> bah
  508. # [19:03] <MikeSmith> abarth, collinjackson : thanks for being on. will follow up with you early next week
  509. # [19:03] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52) (Quit: dsinger)
  510. # [19:03] <anne> maybe people didn't understand that this was a problem specific with form submission for which HTML is a pretty good place to solve the problem given that only HTML has this problem?
  511. # [19:03] <abarth> MikeSmith: sounds good
  512. # [19:03] <anne> I don't really see why a separate document for this is needed
  513. # [19:03] <abarth> anne: yeah, it seems very HTML-related to me
  514. # [19:04] * Quits: Lionheart (robin@66.57.69.65) (Quit: Leaving.)
  515. # [19:04] <anne> vendors want this, authors want this, bureaucrats may or may not, but that shouldn't really matter :p
  516. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> heh
  517. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> I think taking it to WebApps for discussion, if the WebApps WG thinks it should just be done in HTML5, we come back
  518. # [19:06] <tlr> anne, you forgot "bureaucrats" want this, too. ;-)
  519. # [19:07] <MikeSmith> .t JST
  520. # [19:07] <phenny> Fri, 05 Dec 2008 03:06:10 JST
  521. # [19:07] <Julian> Anne: I'd like to understand the expectation about server implementations a bit better...
  522. # [19:08] <Julian> Is this some kind of opt-in? That is, if my server doesn
  523. # [19:08] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  524. # [19:08] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  525. # [19:08] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 04 Dec 2008 (at www.w3.org)
  526. # [19:08] <Julian> not need it I can just ignore it?
  527. # [19:08] <tlr> julian, yes
  528. # [19:08] <MikeSmith> Zakim, bye
  529. # [19:08] <Zakim> leaving. As of this point the attendees were Christiane_Fellbaum, ChrisWilson, Adam, Julian, Mike, DanC, Joshue, anne, Lachy, +1.650.858.aabb, John_Mitchell, Murray_Maloney,
  530. # [19:08] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  531. # [19:08] <Zakim> ... dsinger, Thomas
  532. # [19:08] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, bye
  533. # [19:08] <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-actions.rdf :
  534. # [19:08] <RRSAgent> ACTION: DanC to propose to postpone ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status by explaining the problem, noting the lack of solutions, and asking if postponing is acceptable [1]
  535. # [19:08] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-irc#T17-20-19
  536. # [19:08] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Hixie to follow up on semantics-tables messages [2]
  537. # [19:08] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-irc#T17-48-25
  538. # [19:08] <RRSAgent> ACTION: ian to follow up on semantics-tables messages [3]
  539. # [19:08] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-irc#T17-48-31
  540. # [19:08] <RRSAgent> ACTION: MikeSmith to ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages [4]
  541. # [19:08] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-irc#T17-49-28
  542. # [19:08] <RRSAgent> ACTION: DanC to look into anne's ticket 206755 from iana@iana.org somewhat related to http://www.iana.org/assignments/message-headers/prov/access-control-allow-origin [5]
  543. # [19:09] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-html-wg-irc#T17-54-50
  544. # [19:09] <RRSAgent> ACTION: MikeSmith to make a proposal to the WebApps WG that we take this on as a work item there, with Adam Barth as the editor [6]
  545. # [19:09] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-html-wg-irc#T17-59-16
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  548. # [19:11] <anne> Julian, the server can use the Origin header (reliably once all vendors ship) as an indication of where the request originated and based on that determine whether it trusts the request
  549. # [19:11] <anne> Julian, so yes, it's opt in
  550. # [19:11] * Parts: Lionheart (robin@66.57.69.65)
  551. # [19:15] <shepazu> Hixie: I will be glad to edit some small part of the spec, if it will help... I think the Canvas API is fairly separable
  552. # [19:16] <anne> DOM Events! ;)
  553. # [19:17] <shepazu> sure, that makes sense, anne
  554. # [19:17] <anne> I think it would be bad if we overload the people editing some of the more important specs
  555. # [19:18] <shepazu> if you mean something above and beyond DOM3 Events, and after D3E is done (I won't get back to that until January, I fear)
  556. # [19:18] <shepazu> anne, that's a good point... not prudent to take on too much
  557. # [19:18] <anne> no, just D3E
  558. # [19:18] <shepazu> I kinda meant "not now, but when my plate is less full"
  559. # [19:18] <anne> ah
  560. # [19:19] * anne will gladly edit the <di> element when such a time comes
  561. # [19:19] <shepazu> yeah, I definitely need to finish D3E first!
  562. # [19:19] <shepazu> <di> element?
  563. # [19:19] <anne> a feature I requested that never made it in
  564. # [19:20] <shepazu> what's it do, kill a process? ;P
  565. # [19:20] <shepazu> stops parsing :)
  566. # [19:20] <anne> gives world domination to me and groups <dt> and <dd> elements
  567. # [19:20] <Philip> It returns disk information, so you can see how much free space the user has
  568. # [19:20] <shepazu> <di>, damn you, </di>!
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  570. # [19:20] <anne> anyway, gtg
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  572. # [19:21] <Philip> Maybe it's short for "diagram", and introduces some new syntax for expressing vector graphics
  573. # [19:21] <shepazu> lol
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  575. # [19:22] <shepazu> oh, I like the idea of grouping <dt> and <dd> elements, that makes good sense
  576. # [19:22] <shepazu> as does, of course, giving world domination to anne... we can all get behind that
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  592. # [21:55] <gsnedders> oh, wait, it's now early December, which is when I said I'd try rewriting the introduction
  593. # [21:56] <gsnedders> And I still don't have the time which I was expecting :P
  594. # [21:56] <Hixie> shepazu: i'd be happy for you to edit something from html5, but frankly right now what would be most helpful for you to edit (in terms of advancing html5) would be the dom3 events spec
  595. # [21:56] <Hixie> shepazu: i have a bunch of issues blocked on dom3 events
  596. # [21:56] <Hixie> shepazu: all the keyboard stuff, the user interaction events, mutation events, etc
  597. # [21:58] <Hixie> shepazu: specifically number 2 in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0127.html
  598. # [21:58] <pimpbot> Title: HTML5 Specification - List of sections and corresponding work estimates from Ian Hickson on 2008-10-27 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  599. # [21:58] <Hixie> shepazu: (that e-mail is sorted in the order of what would most help html5, from most helpful to least helpful)
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  607. # [22:26] <shepazu> Hixie: cool, I think we all agree that D3E is my most important deliverable right now
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  614. # [23:57] <adrianba> hixie: is it possible for me to tell from the (x)html5 tracking tool _when_ a particular change was made?
  615. # Session Close: Fri Dec 05 00:00:00 2008

The end :)