/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-12-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Dec 11 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  9. # [01:54] <MikeSmith> karl: I'd suggest e-mailing public-html with those proposed wording changes, or raising as a W3C bugzilla issue against HTML WG product > spec bugs
  10. # [01:55] <Lachy> karl, yt?
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  13. # [01:55] <Lachy> karl, I'm just wondering when you'll have time to work on contributing to the authoring guide
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  16. # [02:01] <MikeSmith> .t karl
  17. # [02:01] <phenny> Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:00:07 EST
  18. # [02:01] <MikeSmith> .t Oslo
  19. # [02:02] <phenny> Thu, 11 Dec 2008 02:00:41 CET
  20. # [02:04] <karl> Lachy: I have time right now, aside of my cold, I have looked a few times at your document I have hard time to find the right strategy to participate into it without changing it completely :)
  21. # [02:04] <karl> Maybe I should just go on with one section and shows what I think it should be but it might be counterproductive
  22. # [02:05] <karl> Trying to find the right balance.
  23. # [02:06] <karl> Plus I'm still not a participant of HTML WG ;)
  24. # [02:06] <karl> I have not been granted access by DanC yet
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  26. # [02:08] <karl> it's 8pm I should go find something to eat and call it a day.
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  30. # [02:39] <MikeSmith> phenny: reload
  31. # [02:39] <MikeSmith> phenny: reload?
  32. # [02:39] <MikeSmith> peh
  33. # [02:39] <MikeSmith> .reload
  34. # [02:39] <MikeSmith> .tock
  35. # [02:39] <phenny> "Thu, 11 Dec 2008 01:38:06 GMT" - tycho.usno.navy.mil
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  48. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> urrent/maillist.html
  49. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> oofs
  50. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dusseault-httpmail-00
  51. # [08:56] <pimpbot> Title: draft-dusseault-httpmail-00 - HTTP Access to Email Stores (at tools.ietf.org)
  52. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> [[
  53. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> This document proposes a standard format and a standard navigation
  54. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> mechanism so that mail stores can provide interoperable access to
  55. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> mailboxes and messages over HTTP. Mailbox contents and listings of
  56. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> mailboxes are exposed as Atom Feeds, while messages themselves are
  57. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> downloaded as a document of type message/822. Each mailbox and each
  58. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> message is assigned an HTTP URL, and if permissions checks are
  59. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> satisfied, each message may be downloaded independently.
  60. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> ]]
  61. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dusseault-httpmail-00#section-1.3
  62. # [08:57] <pimpbot> Title: draft-dusseault-httpmail-00 - HTTP Access to Email Stores (at tools.ietf.org)
  63. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> (↑discusses use cases)
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  67. # [10:16] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6300] New: reference RFC 5322 instead of RFC 2822" ( message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2008Dec/0020.html>
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  71. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> http://mailman.rfc-editor.org/pipermail/rfc-interest/2006-February/000465.html
  72. # [11:48] <pimpbot> Title: [rfc-i] Which English? (at mailman.rfc-editor.org)
  73. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> Bob Braden: "
  74. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> [[
  75. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> In principle we allow either, as long as it is used consistently.
  76. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> In practice, we use tools that have a bias towards American spelling,
  77. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> so practice does not always catch up with principle.
  78. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> ]]
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  88. # [12:58] <Lachy> karl, I expect to restructure the authoring guide significantly from its current state
  89. # [12:59] <Lachy> but my priorities with it for now are to get author friendly descriptions of element semantics written
  90. # [13:00] <Lachy> produce some kind of index of elements that gives an overview of element categories, content models, etc.
  91. # [13:02] <wilhelm> I've used this page a lot: http://htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/olist.html
  92. # [13:02] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 4 Elements (at htmlhelp.com)
  93. # [13:02] <wilhelm> Might be useful to look at for inspiration.
  94. # [13:02] <Lachy> I was thinking a little more like this, but better http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/index/elements.html
  95. # [13:02] <pimpbot> Title: Index of the HTML 4 Elements (at www.w3.org)
  96. # [13:03] <Lachy> The Depr. and DTD columns will not be included, obviously
  97. # [13:04] <MikeSmith> that's a nice index
  98. # [13:04] <MikeSmith> never looked at that before
  99. # [13:05] <MikeSmith> I've always liked the way the htmlhelp.com stuff is organized too
  100. # [13:06] <Lachy> there's also this that I will get some inspiration from http://reference.sitepoint.com/html
  101. # [13:06] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Reference (beta) (at reference.sitepoint.com)
  102. # [13:06] <Lachy> that's a book I did a technical review for before it was published, so I know it's good
  103. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> not much of an index there
  104. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> Lachy: might be worth bouncing some ideas around with Bruce Lawson and Chris Mills, and others at Opera
  105. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> like Jorunn
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  111. # [13:14] <Lachy> MikeSmith, that sitepoint reference has other useful stuff other than an index from which I can get inspiration for other sections
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  113. # [13:14] <Lachy> who is Jorunn?
  114. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> OK
  115. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> Jorunn is a professional tech writer at Opera
  116. # [13:15] <Lachy> MikeSmith, intranet says former employee
  117. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> ah
  118. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> too bad that
  119. # [13:15] <Lachy> we have other people I know in the documentation team though
  120. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> cool
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  122. # [14:31] <karl> Hi Lachy, I'm back.
  123. # [14:31] <karl> reading the back log
  124. # [14:31] <karl> :)
  125. # [14:31] <karl> I understand the way the document is organized right now, or at least I think I do.
  126. # [14:32] <karl> but do you want it to be a dictionary of html or more a tutorial of html
  127. # [14:33] <karl> both documents could have their right to exist. I'm more interested by a tutorial, because a dictionary is more or less what Mike is doing with the other document.
  128. # [14:33] <karl> I would for example put all the explanations on how to read the document, more at the end of the document.
  129. # [14:34] <karl> and start progressively to build an html document explaining why it is interesting to use this or that of html for achieving a specific purpose.
  130. # [14:34] <karl> and refering to Mike's document when you need a formal definition
  131. # [14:36] * karl thanks Mike btw for processing my application. Muchos gracias. I'll pay you an illicit drinking substance at a F2F somewhere in the world
  132. # [14:36] <Lachy> it will have sections that are more like a tutorial. But we still need sections that describe the elements, semantics, syntax. etc.
  133. # [14:37] <karl> It's why I think Mike's document could be useful and would avoid to duplicate the effort.
  134. # [14:37] <Lachy> The document Mike is working on isn't really suitable for typical authors due to its use of complicated schemas. IMHO, it seems more suited to validator and perhaps partially authoring tool implementers
  135. # [14:38] <karl> valid point.
  136. # [14:38] <Lachy> I want the authoring guide to explain things in a way that won't scare newbies away, which means no formal syntax. Just plain and simple english descriptions and examples
  137. # [14:39] <karl> but it is scary now ;) I almost dropped my coffee on my lap and hide right away. I thought you were werewolf reading it :)
  138. # [14:39] <Lachy> which parts in particular?
  139. # [14:40] <karl> Sincerely it is very well documented but quite hard to parse because very technical, very engineered.
  140. # [14:40] <Lachy> note that a lot of the element descriptions were simply copy and pasted directly from the spec and are yet to be updated
  141. # [14:40] <karl> ok let's work on a specific item
  142. # [14:40] <karl> that would help to understand each other and let's see how we can make progress
  143. # [14:41] <karl> Take the first element described in the document: "html"
  144. # [14:41] <Lachy> I don't have time to work on it for much longer than about 20 minutes today, since I'm travelling to Sweden in just over an hour
  145. # [14:41] <karl> It starts right away by the formal description
  146. # [14:41] <karl> ooooh lucky you Sweden!
  147. # [14:42] <Lachy> yeah, it's very similar to Norway. Cold and probably snowing.
  148. # [14:42] <Julian> Looking at <http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#origin>: "If url does not use a server-based naming authority, or if parsing url failed, or if url is not an absolute URL, then return a new globally unique identifier." -- shouldn't this state how to actually determine a globally unique identifier? If it's supposed to be *globally* unique, it needs to state something about the syntax. IMHO.
  149. # [14:42] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at dev.w3.org)
  150. # [14:43] <karl> I love cold and snow. I'm back in Montréal and Scandinavia is one of my dream place. I have seen a lot scandinavian movies and read a lot of scandinavian novels.
  151. # [14:43] <karl> Ok Lachy
  152. # [14:44] <karl> I don't want to block you. so I will take one element and rewrite it as I see it, and you will tell me if you are ok or if it's non sense. Would it help?
  153. # [14:44] <Lachy> At the beginning of each element description, I want there to be a quick overview of the element so that authors can use it more like a quick reference. But I also need to balance that more with being less technical
  154. # [14:45] <Lachy> The i18n techniques and Accessibility techniques need to be dropped from that summary and simply incorporated into the descriptions
  155. # [14:45] <karl> Think about the readership and how would you use the document, once printed for example.
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  157. # [14:46] <Lachy> I think the important things to include in the quick overview are: Categories, Start/End Tag Requirements, list of Attributes
  158. # [14:46] <karl> Damn too bad my books are traveling on the ocean right now. Because I have a remarkable Japanese book about XML which is really well organized.
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  161. # [14:48] <Lachy> karl, this is quite good http://reference.sitepoint.com/html/link
  162. # [14:48] <pimpbot> Title: link (at reference.sitepoint.com)
  163. # [14:48] <karl> I had made a photo, but not of the right page for the purpose of our discussion
  164. # [14:48] <karl> http://www.la-grange.net/2007/03/03-2948-xml-book-design
  165. # [14:49] <karl> yes sitepoint is quite good
  166. # [14:50] <Lachy> gotta go, bye
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  169. # [15:27] * Philip really likes how he can take a URL like http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#origin and simply change it to http://whatwg.org/html5#origin and it'll load the right content in a nice small quick-to-load page instead of a giant multimegabyte document
  170. # [15:27] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at dev.w3.org)
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  172. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> Philip: that is cool
  173. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> indeed
  174. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> we should thank the guy who implemented that
  175. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> if we knew who it was
  176. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> karl: no problem about the app
  177. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> I look forward to you paying for all my beer and wine when I visit Montreal
  178. # [15:35] <karl> ;)
  179. # [15:35] <karl> You are more than welcome
  180. # [15:35] * Quits: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  181. # [15:36] <karl> come for a WG F2F in Montreal. Cheap. Fun. And I can find a space for a meeting.
  182. # [15:36] <jgraham> karl: what are you doing now?
  183. # [15:36] <jgraham> (nice photoof the book btw)
  184. # [15:41] <karl> jgraham: right now, chatting with you guys :) and fixing a translation which has rotten markup on my site. Enjoying the snow in Montreal. And Today I will edit a section of Lachy's doc to show what I meant
  185. # [15:41] <karl> :)
  186. # [15:41] * Quits: jgraham (jgraham@74.53.238.210) (Ping timeout)
  187. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> karl: we should be in Sweden
  188. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> that's where the fun seems to be this week
  189. # [15:47] <karl> rha I wish I could be there
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  192. # [16:01] <MikeSmith> .t Oslo
  193. # [16:01] <phenny> Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:59:50 CET
  194. # [16:02] <Philip> .t Mars
  195. # [16:02] <phenny> Philip: Sorry, I don't know about the 'Mars' timezone.
  196. # [16:02] <Philip> Hmph
  197. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> phenny: reload
  198. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> .t Linköping
  199. # [16:03] <phenny> MikeSmith: Sorry, I don't know about the 'Linköping' timezone.
  200. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> phenny: reload?
  201. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> .reload
  202. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> .t Linköping
  203. # [16:03] <phenny> MikeSmith: Sorry, I don't know about the 'Linköping' timezone.
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  211. # [16:42] <marcos> gsnedders: can you package all the bits of the HTML processor thing into one easy package?
  212. # [16:43] <marcos> something that doesn't require me to waste half a day setting it up?
  213. # [16:44] <marcos> by "waste" I mean lovingly spend time dealing with dependencies, etc... it's just that my time on this earth is limited...
  214. # [16:46] <Philip> marcos: Would you be happy to use a web service instead?
  215. # [16:46] * Quits: Yudai (Yudai@218.41.70.151) (Ping timeout)
  216. # [16:47] <marcos> yeah, I use Bert's edition.
  217. # [16:47] <marcos> But wanted to use gsnedders' thingy
  218. # [16:47] <Philip> marcos: I think there's a web service for gsnedders' thingy
  219. # [16:47] <marcos> The web one is a bit annoying. I have to do a lot of copy/paste, etc
  220. # [16:47] <Philip> ...but I can't find it :-/
  221. # [16:47] <karl> >First, people think BeautifulSoup is better at parsing broken HTML. This is not correct. lxml parses broken HTML quite nicely.
  222. # [16:47] <karl> http://blog.ianbicking.org/2008/12/10/lxml-an-underappreciated-web-scraping-library/
  223. # [16:47] <pimpbot> Title: Ian Bicking: a blog :: lxml: an underappreciated web scraping library (at blog.ianbicking.org)
  224. # [16:48] <Philip> marcos: Oh, maybe it's http://anolis.quuz.org/
  225. # [16:48] <pimpbot> Title: Anolis ALPHABETA (at anolis.quuz.org)
  226. # [16:49] <Philip> marcos: (I think that's what the HTML5 spec uses)
  227. # [16:50] <marcos> cool
  228. # [16:50] <marcos> I'll try it out. gsnedders should add direct input.
  229. # [16:52] <Philip> marcos: I think the frontend is annevk's, not gsnedders'
  230. # [16:53] <gsnedders> jgraham has a web ui that's quicker
  231. # [16:54] <Philip> If he does, it's also more well hidden
  232. # [16:54] <gsnedders> http://anolis.hoppipolla.co.uk/
  233. # [16:54] <pimpbot> Title: Anolis ALPHABETA (at anolis.hoppipolla.co.uk)
  234. # [16:55] * Philip sees that both versions refer to "Geoffrey Snedders"
  235. # [16:57] <gsnedders> marcos: once I get 1.0 shipped I'll try and make sure easy_install anolis works
  236. # [16:57] <marcos> gsnedders: will you add a textbox?
  237. # [16:58] <gsnedders> marcos: I didn't write the web UI, so don't ask me.
  238. # [16:58] <marcos> gsnedders: who did?
  239. # [16:58] <gsnedders> marcos: annevk
  240. # [16:58] <marcos> ah
  241. # [16:58] <marcos> ok
  242. # [16:58] <marcos> sorry, I missed that above.
  243. # [16:58] <marcos> Someone was talking to me
  244. # [16:58] <gsnedders> easy_install should make it easy to install locally
  245. # [16:59] * marcos notes that he didn't actually attempt installing the thing
  246. # [16:59] <marcos> :P
  247. # [16:59] <marcos> Someone else did though, and they came and complained to me
  248. # [17:00] <marcos> And I was all like, "I'm going to go and bitch about it to gsnedders on a public forum like the HTML-WG channel".
  249. # [17:00] <gsnedders> :D
  250. # [17:02] * jgraham plans to move his web UI to pimpmyspec.org if I register it
  251. # [17:02] <gsnedders> hah. awesome.
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  253. # [17:05] <marcos> gsnedders: I like that it find if you have dfn'd things twice. Useful
  254. # [17:05] <gsnedders> marcos: Blame Hixie for making me implement that (and then blame me for making Hixie fix duplicate dfns in HTML 5)
  255. # [17:06] <marcos> I need duplicates
  256. # [17:06] <marcos> too
  257. # [17:06] <marcos> It shouldn't die
  258. # [17:06] <gsnedders> --ignore-duplicate-dfns?
  259. # [17:06] <marcos> I define <code>folder</folder>... ah, it dies in the web interface
  260. # [17:06] <gsnedders> xref behaviour is defined with that option enabled, AFIAK
  261. # [17:07] <gsnedders> *undefined
  262. # [17:07] <marcos> s/</folder>/</code>
  263. # [17:07] <marcos> :(
  264. # [17:09] <gsnedders> jgraham: Can you update <http://pypi.python.org/pypi/html5lib>?
  265. # [17:09] <pimpbot> Title: Python Package Index : html5lib 0.10 (at pypi.python.org)
  266. # [17:13] <jgraham> gsnedders: In principle, yes
  267. # [17:13] <jgraham> In practice, not right now
  268. # [17:13] * jgraham tried to do it when html5lib 0.11 was released and it complained a lot
  269. # [17:14] <jgraham> But I couldn't understand the error
  270. # [17:16] <jgraham> Also hen I have a chance I will update the web interface to anolis to allow passing of options
  271. # [17:17] <jgraham> *when
  272. # [17:18] <karl> http://twitter.com/bobdc/statuses/1050497267
  273. # [17:18] <pimpbot> Title: Twitter / Bob DuCharme: The XML version of HTML 5 ... (at twitter.com)
  274. # [17:19] <karl> >The XML version of HTML 5 is called XHTML5 (http://is.gd/b5N6)? But it's not a successor to XHTML2. Really! (I miss RSS version numbering.)
  275. # [17:19] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at is.gd)
  276. # [17:19] <gsnedders> There again, XHTML2 isn't a successor to XHTML1
  277. # [17:20] <karl> gsnedders: this is rhetorical, not social.
  278. # [17:29] <marcos> Ironic that python easy install is not easy to install
  279. # [17:30] <marcos> ffs.
  280. # [17:30] <Philip> 'emerge setuptools'
  281. # [17:31] <Philip> It's easy to install for me :-)
  282. # [17:31] <marcos> is that gentoo ?
  283. # [17:31] <Philip> Yes
  284. # [17:32] <marcos> ah, found the .egg files. They were at the bottom of the "Download" section of the page.... out of view. Bad page design.
  285. # [17:43] <karl> http://www.w3.org/News/2008#item211
  286. # [17:43] <pimpbot> Title: Archive of W3C News in 2008 (at www.w3.org)
  287. # [17:43] <karl> W3C launches Validator Donation and Sponsorship Campaign
  288. # [17:44] <karl> http://www.w3.org/QA/Tools/Donate
  289. # [17:44] <pimpbot> Title: W3C Validator Donation Program (at www.w3.org)
  290. # [17:45] * Philip unfortunately doesn't have any validators to donate
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  302. # [19:32] <Hixie> Julian: it seems i have poorly explained the security model in the spec -- given your new understanding of the spec, could you suggest where i should clarify it and what i should say to avoid such misunderstandings in the future?
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  305. # [20:03] * Hixie wonders why people on the AC think Access Control is similar to EOT
  306. # [20:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: because the term "access control" traditionally means something different than what the Access Control spec is about?
  307. # [20:06] <Hixie> ah so opinions based on the title and not reading the spec
  308. # [20:06] <Hixie> fair enough
  309. # [20:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: I haven't read the thread you are referring to, but so far misunderstandings of Access Control could be easily explained by people guessing from the title instead of reading the spec and pondering it in the context of Same Origin
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  311. # [20:29] * karl is adding double quotes around attributes on a small section of lachy's document that I have copied locally.
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  326. # [23:00] <karl> for Lachy, when is back online - http://www.la-grange.net/2008/12/11/web-authoring-example.xhtml
  327. # [23:00] <pimpbot> Title: HTML element for Web Authoring Guidelines Proposal (at www.la-grange.net)
  328. # [23:00] <karl> to be refined, rewritten a few times, wash, rinse, dry, wash, rinse, dry, wash, rinse, dry,
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  335. # Session Close: Fri Dec 12 00:00:00 2008

The end :)