/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-12-12 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Fri Dec 12 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:14] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920])
  4. # [00:19] * Joins: aroben (adamroben@17.244.18.41)
  5. # [00:34] * Quits: aroben (adamroben@17.244.18.41) (Quit: aroben)
  6. # [00:41] * Joins: aroben (adamroben@17.244.18.41)
  7. # [00:41] * Quits: aroben (adamroben@17.244.18.41) (Quit: aroben)
  8. # [00:47] * Joins: aroben (adamroben@17.244.18.41)
  9. # [00:49] <MikeSmith> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnulib/2008-12/msg00109.html
  10. # [00:49] <pimpbot> Title: Re: special characters in filenames in error messages (at lists.gnu.org)
  11. # [00:49] <MikeSmith> [[
  12. # [00:50] <MikeSmith> Anyway, this decision seems like a judgement to me, not something that
  13. # [00:50] <MikeSmith> can be considered provably better. And rms is the one whose judgement
  14. # [00:50] <MikeSmith> counts.
  15. # [00:50] <MikeSmith> ]]
  16. # [00:59] * Quits: billmason (bmason@69.30.57.49) (Quit: Leaving.)
  17. # [01:03] * Quits: maddiin (mc@87.185.226.181) (Quit: maddiin)
  18. # [01:17] * Quits: smedero (smedero@192.223.6.251) (Quit: smedero)
  19. # [01:29] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30) (Quit: shepazu)
  20. # [01:53] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
  21. # [02:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: fwiw, at some point soonish, I plan to do an audit of the forms content models in the whattf.org schema against the current (post-WF2-integration/revision) content models in the spec
  22. # [02:17] <MikeSmith> for now, one thing I notice that's missing is @multiple on input@type=email and input@type=file
  23. # [02:19] <MikeSmith> and that the datatype for input@type=email/@value needs to be changed to list { email } where email is a single valid e-mail address
  24. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: also seems like list and autocomplete attributes should be moved to the shared.form.attrs pattern
  25. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> anyway I'll bug the proposed changes at validator.nu and post a patch
  26. # [02:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks.
  27. # [02:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: also noticed yesterday that http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MicrosyntaxDescriptions#email has email matching RFC 2822 addr-spec production (excluding CFWS and FWS) but spec now just has it restricted to more-strict dot-atom "@" dot-atom
  28. # [02:39] <pimpbot> Title: MicrosyntaxDescriptions - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org)
  29. # [02:40] <MikeSmith> not sure what v.nu is actually now checking for in value on type=email
  30. # [02:40] <MikeSmith> but maybe will need to be updated to do stricter checking
  31. # [02:42] <hsivonen> there's no checking for type=email yet
  32. # [02:42] <hsivonen> that one is going to be a pain to implement
  33. # [02:44] <MikeSmith> ah, didn't realize it was not doing checking yet
  34. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> hmm, yeah, I can imagine it not being too fun to implement
  35. # [02:46] <MikeSmith> I guess whatever Java library you'd normally rely on to do the checking would only check for addr-spec in the very liberal form that RFC 2822 allows
  36. # [02:47] <Hixie> hsivonen: why would it be a pain?
  37. # [02:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: also, fwiw, I think RFC 5322 can be referenced now in place of RFC 2822
  38. # [02:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: because email addresses have non-trivial syntax and the spec subsets it in such a way that I can't trust that an existing validation library exists for the right subset
  39. # [02:50] <Hixie> the subset is so simple now that i think a trivial regexp could do it
  40. # [02:50] <Hixie> (by trivial i mean one with no backtracking)
  41. # [03:02] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: just replied your mail. hope the reply is acceptable
  42. # [03:03] <heycam> aren't all regular expressions matchable without backtracking?
  43. # [03:05] <Hixie> heycam: /a+ac/ against the string "aaac" needs backtracking as far as i can tell
  44. # [03:06] <Hixie> (unless you do it backwards, but then an equivalent pattern can be set up backwards too)
  45. # [03:06] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes, indeed it is. Thank you!
  46. # [03:06] * Joins: marcos (marcos@87.196.201.71)
  47. # [03:07] <heycam> Hixie, no you just need extra states to represent that "one 'a' before the end"
  48. # [03:07] <Hixie> ?
  49. # [03:09] <Hixie> possibly s/i mean one with no backtracking/i mean one that uses O(N) time/, but I would have thought any non-O(N) behavior would be behavior involving backtracking.
  50. # [03:09] <heycam> there's a theorem that you can convert any regular expression into a DFA, though i don't remember its name
  51. # [03:09] * Quits: marcos (marcos@87.196.201.71) (Ping timeout)
  52. # [03:10] <Hixie> why don't people do that then?
  53. # [03:10] <heycam> well they do, don't they? :)
  54. # [03:10] <Hixie> why aren't regexps O(N) then?
  55. # [03:10] <heycam> at least, that is what i'd expect regular expression libraries to do
  56. # [03:11] <heycam> O(N) where N is the number of characters? that's ok.
  57. # [03:11] <heycam> can't do better than that
  58. # [03:11] <Hixie> yes, N meaning the length of the string
  59. # [03:11] <Hixie> as far as i can tell, regexp libraries don't even get O(N) behavior on many regexps
  60. # [03:11] <heycam> http://mcc.id.au/temp/2008/dfa.png
  61. # [03:11] <hsivonen> http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html
  62. # [03:11] <heycam> that's a DFA that matches /a+ac/
  63. # [03:11] <pimpbot> Title: Regular Expression Matching Can Be Simple And Fast (at swtch.com)
  64. # [03:12] <heycam> (well, assuming you add transitions for an error state, which i left out)
  65. # [03:13] <heycam> hsivonen, crazy
  66. # [03:13] * Quits: adele (adele@17.203.15.210) (Quit: adele)
  67. # [03:14] <heycam> conversion between regexes/dfas/nfas was the first thing we learnt when doing compiler theory
  68. # [03:15] <hsivonen> heycam: likewise. I was a bit shocked to learn that real world does it differently
  69. # [03:15] <hsivonen> especially when I learned via stack trace: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/regexp/
  70. # [03:15] <pimpbot> Title: Regular Expressions, Computer Science and Practice (at hsivonen.iki.fi)
  71. # [03:16] <heycam> ha
  72. # [03:17] <Hixie> so why don't people do this?
  73. # [03:17] <heycam> so that only happens when grouping/backreferences are used?
  74. # [03:17] * Hixie just read the paper hsivonen cited but it didn't seem to say why the author didn't just go ahead and submit patches
  75. # [03:17] <heycam> it must be that in most cases exponential run time is good enough :/
  76. # [03:17] <Hixie> well the graphs on that paper show that the exponential time is slower than the NFA time even for the best cases
  77. # [03:21] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: sex break)
  78. # [03:28] * Quits: aroben (adamroben@17.244.18.41) (Quit: aroben)
  79. # [03:29] * Quits: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  80. # [03:36] * Quits: tH (Rob@129.11.83.58) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
  81. # [04:03] * Quits: timelyx (timeless@88.115.12.126) (Ping timeout)
  82. # [04:03] * Quits: hsivonen (hsivonen@130.233.41.50) (Ping timeout)
  83. # [04:04] * Quits: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37) (Ping timeout)
  84. # [04:04] * Joins: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37)
  85. # [04:04] * Joins: hsivonen (hsivonen@130.233.41.50)
  86. # [04:04] * Quits: wilhelm (wilhelm@129.241.93.37) (Ping timeout)
  87. # [04:04] * Joins: wilhelm (wilhelm@129.241.93.37)
  88. # [04:05] * Quits: karl (karlcow@70.81.84.168) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  89. # [04:11] * Joins: karl (karlcow@70.81.84.24)
  90. # [05:20] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  91. # [05:46] * Quits: karl (karlcow@70.81.84.24) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  92. # [05:50] * Joins: karl (karlcow@70.81.84.168)
  93. # [07:34] * Joins: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@68.50.195.181)
  94. # [08:53] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.207.11) (Ping timeout)
  95. # [08:58] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.207.11)
  96. # [09:00] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.67.219.2) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  97. # [09:02] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  98. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> .t PST
  99. # [09:11] <phenny> Fri, 12 Dec 2008 00:10:20 PST
  100. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: any chance you still around?
  101. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> @lastlog
  102. # [09:12] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: Huh?
  103. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> @log
  104. # [09:18] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: Error: You don't have the owner capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified.
  105. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> peh
  106. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> @last
  107. # [09:18] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: [17:17:28] <MikeSmith> peh
  108. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> @last hsivonen
  109. # [09:19] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: (last [--{from,in,on,with,without,regexp} <value>] [--nolimit]) -- Returns the last message matching the given criteria. --from requires a nick from whom the message came; --in requires a channel the message was sent to; --on requires a network the message was sent on; --with requires some string that had to be in the message; --regexp requires a regular expression the message must match; --nolimit returns (1 more message)
  110. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> @last --from hsivonen --nolimit
  111. # [09:19] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: [11:14:30] <hsivonen> especially when I learned via stack trace: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/regexp/, [11:13:46] <hsivonen> heycam: likewise. I was a bit shocked to learn that real world does it differently, [11:10:26] <hsivonen> http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html, [11:05:03] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes, indeed it is. Thank you!, [10:48:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: because email addresses have non-trivial syntax and (2 more messages)
  112. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> @more
  113. # [09:19] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: the spec subsets it in such a way that I can't trust that an existing validation library exists for the right subset, [10:41:36] <hsivonen> that one is going to be a pain to implement, [10:41:27] <hsivonen> there's no checking for type=email yet, [10:34:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks., [04:08:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: I haven't read the thread you are referring to, but so far misunderstandings of Access Control (1 more message)
  114. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> @more
  115. # [09:19] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: could be easily explained by people guessing from the title instead of reading the spec and pondering it in the context of Same Origin, and [04:05:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: because the term "access control" traditionally means something different than what the Access Control spec is about?
  116. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> thanks punkpot
  117. # [09:30] * Joins: anne (annevk@88.131.66.111)
  118. # [09:34] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: sex break)
  119. # [09:37] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@92.241.205.179)
  120. # [09:37] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@92.241.205.179) (Quit: Leaving)
  121. # [09:37] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@92.241.205.179)
  122. # [09:41] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@92.241.205.179) (Ping timeout)
  123. # [09:49] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@92.241.206.186)
  124. # [09:50] * Joins: Lachy_ (Lachlan@88.131.66.112)
  125. # [09:50] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@92.228.87.131)
  126. # [09:52] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@92.241.206.186) (Ping timeout)
  127. # [09:54] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  128. # [09:55] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  129. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2008Dec/0040.html
  130. # [10:02] <pimpbot> Title: spec/Overview.html 1.1700 2529 MAJOR CHANGES: Revamp the way scripts ar from poot on 2008-12-12 (public-html-diffs@w3.org from December 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  131. # [10:11] * Quits: anne (annevk@88.131.66.111) (Ping timeout)
  132. # [10:12] * Joins: anne (annevk@88.131.66.112)
  133. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> Hixie: damn, that diff is a mammoth
  134. # [10:30] <Hixie> yeah
  135. # [10:30] <Hixie> it got out of hand
  136. # [10:31] <Hixie> every time i try to fix something i found the next layer was rotten
  137. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> pulling threads
  138. # [10:32] <Hixie> yeah
  139. # [10:41] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38)
  140. # [11:01] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@92.228.87.131) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
  141. # [11:12] * Joins: tH (Rob@129.11.83.58)
  142. # [11:20] * Joins: myakura (myakura@122.17.190.200)
  143. # [11:48] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@92.228.87.131)
  144. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> .t GMT
  145. # [11:57] <phenny> Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:55:55 GMT
  146. # [12:07] * Quits: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@68.50.195.181) (Quit: Leaving)
  147. # [12:08] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Connection reset by peer)
  148. # [12:08] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233)
  149. # [12:30] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Well, it still isn't as large as the diff when moving to Anolis :)
  150. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: yesm, thank you jesus
  151. # [12:31] * gsnedders wonders how to change Anolis to create another huge diff
  152. # [12:31] * gsnedders starts plotting
  153. # [12:32] <Philip> I suggest adding one space of indentation before every line
  154. # [12:42] * Joins: maddiin (mc@87.185.201.223)
  155. # [13:11] * Joins: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167)
  156. # [13:24] <MikeSmith> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-scripting-syntax-and-features/
  157. # [13:24] <pimpbot> Title: MAMA: Scripting report, part 1: Basic scripting syntax and features - Opera Developer Community (at dev.opera.com)
  158. # [13:24] <MikeSmith> serendipity
  159. # [13:31] <karl> brian wilson is doing an amazing job
  160. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> karl: amen
  161. # [13:53] * Quits: jmb (jmb@152.78.68.189) (Ping timeout)
  162. # [13:56] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.207.11) (Ping timeout)
  163. # [13:56] * Joins: jmb (jmb@152.78.68.189)
  164. # [13:58] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.207.11)
  165. # [14:02] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
  166. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> Hixie: a little bird told me about at least a few precedents for use of scripts in TR docs
  167. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-owl2-syntax-20081202/
  168. # [14:04] <pimpbot> Title: OWL 2 Web Ontology Language:Structural Specification and Functional-Style Syntax (at www.w3.org)
  169. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Primer
  170. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/New_Features_and_Rationale
  171. # [14:04] <pimpbot> Title: Primer - OWL (at www.w3.org)
  172. # [14:04] <pimpbot> Title: New Features and Rationale - OWL (at www.w3.org)
  173. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> Semantic Web crew leading the way, as usual
  174. # [14:05] <karl> hehe
  175. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> so that seems to indicate there's no official prohibition against scripts in TR docs
  176. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> and if we do it can get taken to task, the Man will have to go knockin' at their door first
  177. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> giving us more time to barricade ourselves in and prepare our defense before they try to kick our front door down and haul us away to Standards Jail
  178. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> karl: can I get an amen?
  179. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> the scripting stuff in the OWL docs is quite nice, btw
  180. # [14:09] <karl> MikeSmith: amen ;)
  181. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> thanks Brother Karl
  182. # [14:12] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  183. # [14:13] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
  184. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: oninvalid & oninput now gone from the spec .. will bug it at v.nu
  185. # [14:19] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  186. # [14:41] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@92.228.87.131) (Ping timeout)
  187. # [15:21] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@88.131.66.112) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  188. # [15:23] * Parts: anne (annevk@88.131.66.112)
  189. # [15:30] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: sex break)
  190. # [15:32] * Joins: marcos (marcos@87.196.201.71)
  191. # [15:41] * Parts: takkaria (takkaria@208.75.87.166)
  192. # [15:42] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  193. # [16:04] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.207.11) (Ping timeout)
  194. # [16:10] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.207.11)
  195. # [16:10] * Quits: xover (xover@193.157.66.22) (Ping timeout)
  196. # [16:12] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.17.190.200) (Quit: Leaving...)
  197. # [16:14] * Joins: xover (xover@193.157.66.22)
  198. # [16:35] * Quits: hober (ted@206.212.254.2) (Ping timeout)
  199. # [16:38] * Quits: marcos (marcos@87.196.201.71) (Connection reset by peer)
  200. # [16:44] * Joins: hober (ted@206.212.254.2)
  201. # [16:48] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@92.228.87.131)
  202. # [16:52] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30)
  203. # [16:54] * Quits: DanC (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Leaving)
  204. # [17:09] * Joins: DanC (connolly@128.30.52.30)
  205. # [17:16] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@92.228.87.131) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
  206. # [17:24] * Joins: billmason (bmason@69.30.57.49)
  207. # [17:25] <gsnedders> http://www.w3.org/XML/2006/xml-names-errata#NE17 — is Name - (Char* ':' Char*) not the same as Name - ':'?
  208. # [17:25] <pimpbot> Title: Namespaces in XML 1.0 (Second Edition) and Errata (at www.w3.org)
  209. # [17:34] <Philip> gsnedders: No
  210. # [17:35] <Philip> gsnedders: e.g. "x:" matches Name - ':'
  211. # [17:35] <Philip> but doesn't match the other one
  212. # [17:37] <Philip> (assuming my interpretation of '-' as meaning the obvious thing is correct)
  213. # [17:37] <gsnedders> x - y = matches x but does not match y
  214. # [17:38] <Philip> Ah, good
  215. # [17:38] <gsnedders> Ah, yeah, duh.
  216. # [17:38] <gsnedders> ':' would only match literally ':'
  217. # [17:40] <Philip> That does seem blindingly obvious
  218. # [17:44] <gsnedders> If I write an XML serializer, there's no way I'm supporting outputting DOCTYPEs
  219. # [17:45] <Philip> Let people print raw characters to the output stream, and they can add the DOCTYPE themselves if they care
  220. # [17:59] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@71.204.152.23)
  221. # [18:08] * Joins: aroben (adamroben@17.244.18.41)
  222. # [18:19] <gsnedders> What's diff between:
  223. # [18:19] <gsnedders> CharData? ((element | Reference | CDSect | PI | Comment) CharData?)*
  224. # [18:19] <gsnedders> and:
  225. # [18:19] <gsnedders> (element | Reference | CDSect | PI | Comment | CharData)*
  226. # [18:21] <Dashiva> The latter allows CharData in sequence
  227. # [18:21] * Joins: smedero (smedero@192.223.6.251)
  228. # [18:21] <Philip> The first one doesn't include CharData CharData CharData
  229. # [18:22] <Philip> Oh, the first one doesn't include CharData CharData either
  230. # [18:22] * Joins: marcos (marcos@87.196.201.71)
  231. # [18:23] <gsnedders> Dashiva: I don't see how allowing "aa" to be broken up into two different sections in parsing it makes any diff in the real world :\
  232. # [18:24] <Dashiva> Can't CharData contain entities?
  233. # [18:34] <gsnedders> No, entities are Reference
  234. # [18:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'm back
  235. # [19:03] * Quits: maddiin (mc@87.185.201.223) (Quit: maddiin)
  236. # [19:03] * Quits: tH (Rob@129.11.83.58) (Client exited)
  237. # [19:03] * Joins: tH_ (Rob@129.11.83.58)
  238. # [19:03] * tH_ is now known as tH
  239. # [19:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: can't remember what I wanted to ask you at the time. in the mean time, I came up with another question: since value for input@type=email can now be a list, what are you inclined to change the name of the datatype to?
  240. # [19:14] <MikeSmith> emaillist?
  241. # [19:15] <MikeSmith> seems like addresslist or addresses would also work
  242. # [19:15] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I suppose that's what has to happen
  243. # [19:15] <MikeSmith> as far as your naming conventions
  244. # [19:15] * hsivonen looks at spec
  245. # [19:16] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#valid-e-mail-address-list
  246. # [19:16] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  247. # [19:16] <hsivonen> sigh. comma-separation
  248. # [19:16] <MikeSmith> yeah, I just noticed that too
  249. # [19:17] <MikeSmith> so *list name and list {} not going to work
  250. # [19:17] <MikeSmith> wonder why Hixie made it comma-separated
  251. # [19:18] <hsivonen> to keep my conventions, the name for the datatype should be email-list
  252. # [19:19] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: to be a subset of RFC2822 (or whatever the spec that replaced it is numbered)
  253. # [19:19] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
  254. # [19:21] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: huh? I can't see how RFC 2822 is relevant to this (whether the addresses should be space-separated or comma-separated)
  255. # [19:22] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I guess I meant to the pattern name
  256. # [19:22] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: I mean re: being comma-seperated
  257. # [19:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: regarding the new definition for the content model if <noscript>: is the contorted way of speccing it equivalent to behaving as if the noscript tag tokens were thrown away and then doing normal validation?
  258. # [19:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: .multiple
  259. # [19:23] <MikeSmith> yeah
  260. # [19:23] <Philip> MikeSmith: RFC 2822 defines comma-separated 'address-list', so I guess the point is that HTML5's address lists should be a subset of address-list
  261. # [19:23] <MikeSmith> ah
  262. # [19:23] <hsivonen> input.email.elem.multiple
  263. # [19:23] <MikeSmith> yeah
  264. # [19:24] <MikeSmith> Philip: I see. but not clear to me why we'd want to follow that. HTML5 doesn't allow spaces within the addresses
  265. # [19:24] <MikeSmith> so a space-separated list would work
  266. # [19:24] <MikeSmith> I think
  267. # [19:26] <Philip> MikeSmith: What benefit would spaces have?
  268. # [19:26] <hsivonen> perhaps I should invoke a nested parser in the fragment mode for noscript content but merge the parse events going into the validator
  269. # [19:27] <hsivonen> on a related note, CRLF shows yet another aspect of painfulness when it comes to speculative parsing
  270. # [19:27] <hsivonen> because now the tokenizer mustn'toverwrite CRLF in place, since doing so would confuse a retokenization
  271. # [19:28] <hsivonen> I wonder if whoever came up with CRLF realized how big a problem it would be for posterity
  272. # [19:30] <MikeSmith> Philip: easier to express in Relax NG
  273. # [19:30] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I doubt they did; if they did I doubt they would have used it
  274. # [19:33] <Philip> MikeSmith: That sounds like a pretty weak reason
  275. # [19:33] <Philip> since it'll affect a total of about three people out of all of humanity
  276. # [19:34] <gsnedders> That's a whole 0%!
  277. # [19:35] <Philip> HTML5 hasn't been designed to be nicely expressible in Relax NG at all, so this seems like an odd place to start
  278. # [19:37] <MikeSmith> Philip: I can't think of other form-input values that take a comma-separated list
  279. # [19:37] <MikeSmith> I don't think there are any
  280. # [19:37] <Philip> MikeSmith: Are there any that take any sort of list?
  281. # [19:37] <MikeSmith> yeah
  282. # [19:38] <MikeSmith> r
  283. # [19:38] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/#common.data.idrefs
  284. # [19:38] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5: Document Conformance (at www.w3.org)
  285. # [19:39] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/#common.data.uris
  286. # [19:39] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5: Document Conformance (at www.w3.org)
  287. # [19:41] * Joins: adele (adele@17.203.15.210)
  288. # [19:46] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: for consistency, it seems like it would be good to split command into multiple patterns, as with input and button
  289. # [19:46] <MikeSmith> I just submitted a patch with the proposed changes
  290. # [19:47] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/#command.command-toc
  291. # [19:47] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5: Document Conformance (at www.w3.org)
  292. # [19:47] <MikeSmith> and with that I must retire for the evening/morning/weekend
  293. # [19:49] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok
  294. # [19:54] <karl> http://html-ipsum.com/
  295. # [19:54] <pimpbot> Title: HTML-Ipsum (at html-ipsum.com)
  296. # [19:54] <karl> cool tool
  297. # [20:19] <karl> http://inessential.com/?comments=1&postid=3570
  298. # [20:19] <pimpbot> Title: inessential.com: Browser CPU usage (at inessential.com)
  299. # [20:30] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@71.204.152.23) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  300. # [20:47] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  301. # [20:47] * Quits: billmason (bmason@69.30.57.49) (Quit: Leaving.)
  302. # [20:52] * Quits: aroben (adamroben@17.244.18.41) (Quit: aroben)
  303. # [20:55] * Joins: maddiin (mc@87.185.201.223)
  304. # [20:57] * Quits: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  305. # [21:21] <Hixie> hsivonen: <noscript>'s definition didn't change
  306. # [21:21] <Hixie> hsivonen: i just changed the terminology a bit
  307. # [21:37] * Joins: aroben (adamroben@17.244.18.41)
  308. # [21:50] * Quits: aroben (adamroben@17.244.18.41) (Quit: aroben)
  309. # [22:00] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  310. # [22:01] <smedero> http://www.contentwithstyle.co.uk/content/xslt-and-html-5-problems
  311. # [22:01] <pimpbot> Title: Content with Style - XSLT and HTML 5 problems (at www.contentwithstyle.co.uk)
  312. # [22:32] * Joins: aroben (aroben@17.244.18.41)
  313. # [22:50] * Joins: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@129.2.175.74)
  314. # [23:12] <marcos> gsnedders: your true identity is to be revealed in about 20 mins on standards suck. You can finally show your parents that you are, in fact, real.
  315. # [23:12] <gsnedders> marcos: wow.
  316. # [23:12] <gsnedders> marcos: This is, um, life changing.
  317. # [23:12] <marcos> gsnedders: I know!
  318. # [23:14] <marcos> gsnedders: how did your Cambridge interview thing go?
  319. # [23:14] <gsnedders> marcos: My first interview went terribly, my second went fine
  320. # [23:15] <marcos> happy to hear it, does the first one impact on the first?
  321. # [23:15] <marcos> I mean the second :P
  322. # [23:15] * gsnedders shrugs
  323. # [23:15] <gsnedders> University admissions is a dark art :)
  324. # [23:15] <marcos> When do you find out?
  325. # [23:16] <gsnedders> No earlier than the 2nd January, and de-facto it has to be several days before the 9th
  326. # [23:17] <marcos> ok, best of luck! I'll keep me eye on twitter :)
  327. # [23:20] * Joins: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167)
  328. # [23:23] * Quits: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@129.2.175.74) (Quit: Leaving)
  329. # [23:36] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920])
  330. # [23:36] * Quits: inimino (weechat@67.207.138.202) (Ping timeout)
  331. # [23:37] * Joins: inimino (weechat@67.207.138.202)
  332. # [23:42] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.207.11) (Ping timeout)
  333. # [23:48] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.207.11)
  334. # [23:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: the noscript definition isn't too nice, but I guess I can get it done
  335. # [23:53] <hsivonen> it'll be a crazy amount of code relative to benefit, though
  336. # [23:54] * Quits: aroben (aroben@17.244.18.41) (Ping timeout)
  337. # Session Close: Sat Dec 13 00:00:00 2008

The end :)