/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-01-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 08 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  17. # [02:18] <MikeSmith> http://www.glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?post/2009/01/07/HTMLCSS-Templates-Repositories
  18. # [02:18] <pimpbot> Title: HTML+CSS Templates Repositories - (at www.glazman.org)
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  27. # [05:46] <MikeSmith> http://webblaze.cs.berkeley.edu/2009/mime-sniff/mime-sniff.txt
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  29. # [06:04] <MikeSmith> http://my.opera.com/hallvors/blog/show.dml/2886958
  30. # [06:04] <pimpbot> Title: Google Maps vs. DOM2 specification 1-0 - By Hallvord R. M. Steen (at my.opera.com)
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  36. # [06:37] <marcos> Hixie, great to see the sniffing bit become it's own internet draft! Hope it progresses on its own.
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  45. # [07:30] <Hixie> anyone know what irc channel ietf-type people hang out on?
  46. # [07:31] * Hixie is trying to work out how to indent text using the rfc xml language (e.g. for examples), without much success
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  55. # [10:15] <Philip> Hixie: Like how http://xml.resource.org/public/rfc/xml/rfc2629.xml uses <artwork xml:space="preserve"> and indents the content?
  56. # [10:15] <pimpbot> Title: Writing I-Ds and RFCs using XML (at xml.resource.org)
  57. # [10:15] <Hixie> yeah but for non-<pre>-like paragraphs
  58. # [10:15] <Hixie> like, <p class="example"> in html5
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  61. # [10:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: how is the Internet Draft draft produced technically? are the table HTML tables in the source?
  62. # [10:21] <Hixie> the sniffing draft?
  63. # [10:21] <Hixie> that's all adam's work
  64. # [10:21] <hsivonen> ah.
  65. # [10:21] <hsivonen> it's still interesting what the preferred form of making modifications is
  66. # [10:22] <Hixie> i'm working on http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/.ietf-websocket-protocol/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol-00
  67. # [10:22] <Hixie> which is currently generated straight from the html5 source document
  68. # [10:23] <Hixie> (the text needs lots of work, i'm just doing the generating script for now)
  69. # [10:23] <anne> you're creating HTML to RFC?
  70. # [10:24] <anne> sweet, please make it a Web service
  71. # [10:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: in Perl using wakaba's parser?
  72. # [10:27] <Hixie> ended up using HTML::Parser
  73. # [10:27] <Hixie> wakaba's parser's distro is missing some file
  74. # [10:28] <hsivonen> is wakaba's parser API-compatible with HTML::Parser?
  75. # [10:28] <Hixie> anne: it's pretty html5- and hixie-specific at the moment
  76. # [10:28] <Hixie> hsivonen: i don't think so
  77. # [10:30] <anne> well, it's a start :)
  78. # [10:33] <Philip> Hixie: s/ 003F/ U+003F/ (in the WebSocket bit in HTML5)
  79. # [10:33] <Hixie> thx fixed
  80. # [10:41] <anne> I wonder how the content type sniffing goes down at the IETF
  81. # [10:42] <Hixie> lisa's happy with having it, how the http wg will take it is another matter
  82. # [10:42] <Hixie> of course i've no idea really where lisa fits into the politics of the ietf
  83. # [10:42] <Hixie> i guess she's the equivalent of an activity lead at the w3c, who don't really have much power in practice
  84. # [10:44] <takkaria> there are loads of conflicting specs at the IETF, surely?
  85. # [10:48] <hsivonen> hrm. I need to figure out which stack node pointers in the AAA a strong and which weak...
  86. # [10:48] <hsivonen> that is, if a node is held once it has been removed from the stack
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  91. # [11:12] <Julian> hixie: there is no HTTP WG, only HTTPbis, and our charter is very restrictive in what we can do
  92. # [11:13] <Hixie> i was referring to the members of httpbis
  93. # [11:13] <Hixie> incidentally, you often refer to the charter being restrictive as if that was some immutable law -- you do realise the charter is whatever the group wants it to be, right?
  94. # [11:14] <Hixie> it's restrictive because some people want it to be restrictive
  95. # [11:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: do you remember off-hand if there are ever situations where the AAA holds an element locally without the element also being on the stack or the list of active formatting elements at the same moment?
  96. # [11:16] <Hixie> not off-hand
  97. # [11:16] <hsivonen> oak
  98. # [11:16] <hsivonen> ok
  99. # [11:17] <hsivonen> I'd rather not develop a memory management overkill on the C++ side for local variables if the stack and the list keep the objects alive anywoy
  100. # [11:17] <hsivonen> *way
  101. # [11:17] <Hixie> don't you run the algorithm all in one go?
  102. # [11:18] <Hixie> oh wait, gecko uses a ref counting mechanism
  103. # [11:18] <Hixie> never mind
  104. # [11:18] <hsivonen> an autoreleasepool would rock, sure
  105. # [11:19] <hsivonen> or a real garbage collector
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  108. # [11:37] <Julian> hixie: the charter is not what the WG members want, but what the IESG approved
  109. # [11:37] <Hixie> what's the difference?
  110. # [11:38] <Julian> http://www.ietf.org/iesg.html
  111. # [11:38] <pimpbot> Title: IESG (at www.ietf.org)
  112. # [11:38] <Hixie> no, i mean, what's the real difference?
  113. # [11:38] <Julian> It's a totally different group of people.
  114. # [11:38] <Hixie> if the IESG said that the HTTP working group charter was "turn HTTP into FTP", would the HTTP group o it?
  115. # [11:38] <Hixie> s/o/do/
  116. # [11:39] <Hixie> even though they thought it was stupid?
  117. # [11:39] <Julian> No. But what does that prove?
  118. # [11:39] <Julian> Peope volunteer to do work in the WG.
  119. # [11:39] <Hixie> the IESG doesn't just make up charters
  120. # [11:39] <Julian> If they don't like the charter, they'll just not participate.
  121. # [11:39] <Hixie> they approve charters that will have participants
  122. # [11:40] <Julian> the charter doesn't have participants
  123. # [11:40] <Hixie> if there had been a body of people who wanted to do HTTP 1.2, then that's what the charter would do
  124. # [11:40] <Hixie> you know what i mean
  125. # [11:40] <Julian> I think you need to learn a bit more about the IETF :-)
  126. # [11:41] <Julian> If the proposal would have been to do HTTP/1.2, the likely outcome would have been that no WG would have been chartered.
  127. # [11:41] <Hixie> if people want to do something, they do it, charter or no charter
  128. # [11:41] <Hixie> html5 being the most obvious example of that
  129. # [11:42] <Julian> But that doesn't mean that the IETF will participate in it.
  130. # [11:42] <Hixie> yeah, that's what the w3c thought about html5, too
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  134. # [11:56] <hsivonen> In retrospect, the Atom WG should probably have defined a format on top of RSS despite the objections of Dave Winer instead of defining a new vocabulary.
  135. # [11:57] <Hixie> yeah
  136. # [12:00] <anne> yeah, but the problem feed like formats solve are very simple so it does not matter much
  137. # [12:00] <anne> although feed interoperability is still bad
  138. # [12:03] <hsivonen> anne: I still see the RSS <title> problem every week approximately in NNW
  139. # [12:04] <anne> well yeah, interop is bad, processing of invalid feeds is not defined, processing of non well-formed XML is not defined, etc. but compared to stuff that can change dynamically and all it is still relatively simple
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  143. # [12:45] <anne> it seems to me the fixed parsing is also not going to work if we ever want to introduce new elements inside <select>, e.g. <hr>
  144. # [12:45] <anne> or add something to <table>
  145. # [12:45] <Hixie> fixed parsing isn't going to work regardless of what we say, because we don't control the parsing
  146. # [12:46] <anne> that's like saying nothing will ever work, because we don't have final say over impl
  147. # [12:49] <Hixie> nothing where we say "this will never change for all time" will work, no
  148. # [12:59] <jgraham> Hixie: My guess is you are underestimating the pain that parsing differences for new <void> elements will cause
  149. # [12:59] <hsivonen> like HTML 4.01 is the last non-XML version of HTML
  150. # [12:59] <jgraham> But I don't have a solution
  151. # [13:00] * hsivonen tends to agree with jgraham
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  153. # [13:15] <Hixie> jgraham: what pain is there?
  154. # [13:15] <Hixie> what pain has <eventsource> caused? or <source>?
  155. # [13:15] <Hixie> anyway, without a solution, this is all academic
  156. # [13:30] <jgraham> Hixie: The pain of having <void><foo>bar</foo> either having <foo> as a sibling or child of <void> and so needing different style rules, DOM handling, unless you use a crazy, non-obvious, hack like <span><void></span>
  157. # [13:32] <Hixie> i just don't see people caring about the down-level case that much for the case where the element isn't supported
  158. # [13:32] <jgraham> It seems better to always allow (but not require) new void elemnts to have an explicit closing tag
  159. # [13:33] <anne> but that gives confusion with e.g. <br></br>
  160. # [13:33] <jgraham> anne: Sure
  161. # [13:33] <jgraham> There is clearly no perfect solution here
  162. # [13:34] <Hixie> i don't know what it means to allow but not require
  163. # [13:34] <Hixie> what does <source><!-- --></source> represent in this case?
  164. # [13:35] <jgraham> Hixie: I think that depends what the tag does. Since we don't know what future void elements will do it seems a bit presumptuous to assume that they will not do anything useful in future UAs
  165. # [13:35] <jgraham> er, that's not what I meant
  166. # [13:35] <Hixie> you mean have the parser have a special mode after a void element's start tag is seen that eats its corresponding end tag if it is the very next token?
  167. # [13:35] <jgraham> that they will not do anything that can be regarded as optional in future UAs
  168. # [13:36] <jgraham> Hixie: I was replying to myself in the line above, but I was baout to suggest that, yes :)
  169. # [13:36] <Hixie> this just seems like a lot of work to solve a problem that we just don't know enough about yet
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  171. # [13:37] <Hixie> it wouldn't have helped us with <canvas> as far as i can tell, e.g.
  172. # [13:37] <Hixie> (nor <ruby>, nor <section>, nor... -- why care only about void elements?)
  173. # [13:38] <jgraham> What do you mean? The problem with <canvas> is that it should never have been void
  174. # [13:38] <Hixie> right
  175. # [13:38] <Hixie> i'm saying this just seems like a case that people think is simple, that they therefore want to solve, even though really it's just about 1% of the problems we face with extending the language
  176. # [13:38] <Hixie> so i don't understand why anyone cares about this one case
  177. # [13:39] <jgraham> I agree that it doesn't help with cases where people unilaterally extend the language in a bad way
  178. # [13:39] <hsivonen> the problem means you can't bury the serializer deep into a framework but instead need to expose configuration points
  179. # [13:39] <Hixie> seriously, with all the extensions we've made to html in html5, the void elements were the least of all our problems
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  181. # [13:40] <jgraham> Hixie: I don't think that's clear yet since no one has really implemented the new void elements
  182. # [13:40] <anne> hsivonen, it's a rather trivial change though compared with all the other changes you'd need to make to have your app use new functionality
  183. # [13:40] <jgraham> (except for <source> I guess)
  184. # [13:40] <Hixie> jgraham: and <canvas>, originally
  185. # [13:40] <anne> Opera has <event-source> (which is now <eventsource> in the draft)
  186. # [13:40] <hsivonen> anne: depends on where you've managed to bury the serializer
  187. # [13:41] <Hixie> and opera has <event-source>
  188. # [13:41] <Hixie> what anne said
  189. # [13:41] <jgraham> anne: I know but does anyone use it?
  190. # [13:41] <jgraham> The problems become apparent when things are implemented and authors try to use them, not when the spec text is finished
  191. # [13:41] <Hixie> anyway, given the current rate of new void elements -- about 1 every 3 years -- it seems very odd to optimise the language for them
  192. # [13:42] <Hixie> especially iven the many other problems that we have with introducing new features
  193. # [13:43] <anne> jgraham, people will start using it when a few browsers support it, if there's something problematic with styling they'll find a temporary workaround, e.g. <span><eventsource></span>
  194. # [13:43] <jgraham> I don't really think the suggestion counts as optimising the language for them
  195. # [13:43] <anne> or they use script for some time
  196. # [13:43] <anne> in case of eventsource script is needed anyway
  197. # [13:44] <jgraham> anne: But <span><eventsource></span> is really really ugly. Moreso than <eventsource></eventsource> with the </eventsource> being optional
  198. # [13:44] <anne> and <source> is always nested inside <video> or <audio> so will never bleed through to the rest of the page
  199. # [13:44] <anne> jgraham, yeah, I'd expect people to use scripting
  200. # [13:45] <Hixie> allowing end tags for void elements imho would introduce orders of magnitude more confusion, bugs, complexity, and bogosity than any problem void elements on their own would introduce
  201. # [13:45] <Hixie> but anyway
  202. # [13:45] <Hixie> bed time
  203. # [13:45] <Hixie> nn
  204. # [13:46] <jgraham> anne: scripting is reasonable but it seems weird to introduce markup features that people will have to insert via script (at least in the short term) rather than just introducing a DOM API
  205. # [13:47] <anne> short term people will always have to use hacks, because e.g. other browsers don't support the functionality
  206. # [13:48] <anne> I agree with Hixie that this is a very minor issue compared to getting authors to use the feature in the first place
  207. # [13:50] <jgraham> I'm not sure. I think this is the sort of thing that will prevent authors from using the new features (I am less concerned about the serialization issue beacuse it is relatively easy to design serializers to take a list of void elements as a configuration option, although there are legacy concerns which may be significant)
  208. # [13:53] <anne> as an author I wouldn't really use <eventsource>, <source>, or <command> anyway without support in browsers
  209. # [13:53] <anne> because they'd be completely useless without browser support
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  211. # [13:57] <jgraham> anne: The interesting case is when they are supported in some but not all browsers
  212. # [13:58] <jgraham> (but maybe with the possibility of using something else in browsers that don't support them)
  213. # [13:59] <anne> just create a small intermediate script hack if it is actually causing issues
  214. # [14:00] <anne> it might be worth to wait and see what happens when several browsers support one of these new void elements and how authors are working around lack of support in others to see if it is a problem worth addressing or not
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  216. # [14:01] <jgraham> Sure
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  233. # [15:45] <pimpbot> planet: Dev.Opera: HTML 5 canvas - the basics <http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/611>
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  247. # [17:11] * Parts: anne (annevk@213.236.208.22)
  248. # [17:23] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.16.160.96) (Quit: Leaving...)
  249. # [17:31] * Quits: darobin (robinb@81.66.15.230) (Ping timeout)
  250. # [17:36] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.83)
  251. # [17:37] * Joins: smedero (smedero@192.223.6.251)
  252. # [17:40] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@92.227.26.7) (Ping timeout)
  253. # [17:52] * Parts: rubys (rubys@75.182.92.38)
  254. # [17:52] * Joins: rubys1 (rubys@75.182.92.38)
  255. # [17:53] * rubys1 is now known as rubys
  256. # [17:53] * Joins: anne (annevk@84.215.140.104)
  257. # [17:55] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  258. # [17:55] <ChrisWilson> zakim, this will be html
  259. # [17:55] <Zakim> ok, ChrisWilson; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
  260. # [17:56] <Julian> zakim, code?
  261. # [17:56] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Julian
  262. # [17:58] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  263. # [17:58] <Zakim> + +1.425.455.aaaa
  264. # [17:58] <smedero> Zakim, +1.425.455.aaaa is me
  265. # [17:58] <Zakim> +smedero; got it
  266. # [17:59] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  267. # [17:59] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, Microsoft is me
  268. # [17:59] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
  269. # [18:00] <Zakim> +Sam
  270. # [18:00] <Zakim> + +49.251.280.aabb
  271. # [18:00] <Julian> Zakim, +49.251.280.aabb is me
  272. # [18:00] <Zakim> +Julian; got it
  273. # [18:00] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@92.227.26.7)
  274. # [18:01] <Zakim> +??P21
  275. # [18:01] <anne> Zakim, ??P21 is me
  276. # [18:01] <Zakim> +anne; got it
  277. # [18:02] <anne> Zakim, who is here?
  278. # [18:02] <Zakim> On the phone I see smedero, ChrisWilson, Sam, Julian, anne
  279. # [18:02] <Zakim> On IRC I see aaronlev, Zakim, anne, rubys, smedero, ChrisWilson, billmason, laplink, MichaelC_AUS, Julian, marcos, aroben, zenmaster, maddiin, Lachy, Sander, ROBOd, tlr, heycam,
  280. # [18:02] <Zakim> ... Shunsuke, gavin_, shepazu, gsnedders, krijnh, hober, hsivonen, sryo1, wilhelm, drry, DanC, trackbot, jmb, Philip, RRSAgent, Yudai, phenny, inimino, timelyx, Hixie, pimpbot,
  281. # [18:02] <Zakim> ... Dashiva, takkaria, jgraham, gavin, deltab
  282. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Masinter
  283. # [18:02] * shepazu zakim, call shepazu
  284. # [18:02] * Zakim ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  285. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Shepazu
  286. # [18:02] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@92.227.26.7) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
  287. # [18:03] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52)
  288. # [18:03] * anne is locally muted for now
  289. # [18:03] <ChrisWilson> Tracker: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
  290. # [18:03] <pimpbot> Title: Input for Agenda Planning for the HTML Weekly - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  291. # [18:03] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  292. # [18:03] <ChrisWilson> action-78
  293. # [18:03] * RRSAgent sees no action items
  294. # [18:03] * DanC changes topic to 'HTML WG http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ ; This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  295. # [18:03] <ChrisWilson> action-78?
  296. # [18:03] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-78
  297. # [18:03] <trackbot> ACTION-78 -- Chris Wilson to suggestion text for 1.4.4 -- due 2008-10-31 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  298. # [18:03] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/78
  299. # [18:03] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-78 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  300. # [18:03] <dsinger> zakim, [Apple] has dsinger
  301. # [18:03] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  302. # [18:03] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-work
  303. # [18:03] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  304. # [18:03] <Zakim> +DanC
  305. # [18:03] <Zakim> +??P10
  306. # [18:03] <hsivonen> Zakim, +??P10 is me
  307. # [18:03] <Zakim> sorry, hsivonen, I do not recognize a party named '+??P10'
  308. # [18:04] <hsivonen> Zakim, ??P10 is me
  309. # [18:04] <Zakim> +hsivonen; got it
  310. # [18:04] <dsinger> did I get the time wrong? are we already running?
  311. # [18:04] <ChrisWilson> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
  312. # [18:04] <pimpbot> Title: Input for Agenda Planning for the HTML Weekly - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  313. # [18:04] <rubys> Ian has implemented something similar to the text Chris proposed, so Chris is inclined to close action-78.
  314. # [18:04] <anne> dsinger, we just started
  315. # [18:04] <smedero> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#relationship-to-flash,-silverlight,-xul-and-similar-proprietary-languages
  316. # [18:04] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  317. # [18:04] <smedero> Which is now section 1.5.4 btw
  318. # [18:04] <dsinger> 'k, wow, prompt for the new year, thx
  319. # [18:04] <Zakim> -anne
  320. # [18:04] <ChrisWilson> Agenda is at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
  321. # [18:04] <pimpbot> Title: Input for Agenda Planning for the HTML Weekly - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  322. # [18:04] * anne hmm
  323. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P21
  324. # [18:05] <anne> Zakim, ??P21 is me
  325. # [18:05] <Zakim> +anne; got it
  326. # [18:06] <Julian> 1.5.4.: "1.5.4 Relationship to Flash, Silverlight, XUL and similar proprietary languages
  327. # [18:06] <Julian> This section is non-normative.
  328. # [18:06] <Julian> This specification is independent of the various proprietary application languages that various vendors provide, but is intended to address many of the same problems.
  329. # [18:06] <Julian> In contrast with proprietary languages, this specification is intended to define an openly-produced, vendor-neutral language, to be implemented in a broad range of competing products, across a wide range of platforms and devices. This enables developers to write applications that are not limited to one vendor's implementation or language. Furthermore, while writing applications that target...
  330. # [18:06] <Julian> ...vendor-specific platforms necessarily introduces a cost that application developers and their customers or users will face if they are forced to switch (or desire to switch) to another vendor's platform, using an openly-produced and vendor neutral language means that application authors can switch vendors with little to no cost."
  331. # [18:06] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  332. # [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see smedero, ChrisWilson, Sam, Julian, Masinter, Shepazu, [Apple], DanC, hsivonen, anne
  333. # [18:06] <rubys> Larry believes the text in 1.5.4 is a bit too inflamatory.
  334. # [18:06] <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
  335. # [18:07] <rubys> Chris tends to agree
  336. # [18:07] <dsinger> In general, I don't think specs should say what they are not, so I tend to agree also
  337. # [18:07] <DanC> rubys, the robots around here will help if you use play notation, a la: Chris: I tend to agree
  338. # [18:07] * rubys thanks DanC
  339. # [18:09] * smedero points rubys to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html for documentation on several scribe commands
  340. # [18:09] <pimpbot> Title: Zakim IRC Teleconference Agent (at www.w3.org)
  341. # [18:09] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  342. # [18:09] <smedero> (not all, just some...)
  343. # [18:09] <rubys> ChrisWilson: Ian is trying to address the idea that some of these alternative platforms could be marketed as a way address some of the same needs as HTML5
  344. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
  345. # [18:09] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  346. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Mike
  347. # [18:10] * smedero also finds this helpful for scribing: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0114.html
  348. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  349. # [18:10] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  350. # [18:10] <rubys> Masinter: with Moonlight, Silverlight is now an opely developed standard. Larry is willing to take on this action item.
  351. # [18:10] <rubys> ChrisWilson: due date?
  352. # [18:11] <rubys> Masinter: two weeks
  353. # [18:11] <DanC> action-78?
  354. # [18:11] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-78
  355. # [18:11] <trackbot> ACTION-78 -- Chris Wilson to larry Masinter - Suggestion text for 1.5.4 -- due 2009-01-22 -- OPEN
  356. # [18:11] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/78
  357. # [18:11] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-78 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  358. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make log public
  359. # [18:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, MikeSmith
  360. # [18:11] <DanC> action-86?
  361. # [18:11] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-86
  362. # [18:11] <trackbot> ACTION-86 -- Dan Connolly to propose to postpone ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status by explaining the problem, noting the lack of solutions, and asking if postponing is acceptable -- due 2008-12-16 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  363. # [18:11] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/86
  364. # [18:11] <ChrisWilson> action-86?
  365. # [18:11] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-86
  366. # [18:11] <trackbot> ACTION-86 -- Dan Connolly to propose to postpone ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status by explaining the problem, noting the lack of solutions, and asking if postponing is acceptable -- due 2008-12-16 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  367. # [18:11] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-86 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  368. # [18:11] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/86
  369. # [18:12] <rubys> DanC: I forgot to follow up
  370. # [18:12] <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Dec/0153.html
  371. # [18:12] <pimpbot> Title: OK to postpone ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status (form authentication...)? from Dan Connolly on 2008-12-16 (public-html@w3.org from December 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  372. # [18:12] * Joins: masinter (user@76.102.104.162)
  373. # [18:12] <rubys> DanC: Thomas Broyer has ongoing work and submitted an internet draft
  374. # [18:12] <smedero> Thomas's draft is here: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-broyer-http-cookie-auth-00.txt
  375. # [18:13] <Julian> q+
  376. # [18:13] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  377. # [18:13] <rubys> ChrisWilson: As this work is progressing elsewhere, this item can be closed?
  378. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> scribenick: rubys
  379. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> scribe: SamRuby
  380. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
  381. # [18:13] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  382. # [18:13] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  383. # [18:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  384. # [18:14] <rubys> DanC: I haven't verified that this internet draft addresses the discussion
  385. # [18:14] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
  386. # [18:14] <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
  387. # [18:14] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
  388. # [18:14] <trackbot> Date: 08 January 2009
  389. # [18:14] <DanC> (I think my action can be closed; but I'm not sure whether the issue should be closed...)
  390. # [18:14] * ChrisWilson thanks Mike - totally forgot about trackbot
  391. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  392. # [18:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  393. # [18:14] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 08 Jan 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  394. # [18:14] <DanC> issue-13?
  395. # [18:14] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-13
  396. # [18:14] <trackbot> ISSUE-13 -- Handling HTTP status 401 responses / User Agent Authentication Forms -- OPEN
  397. # [18:14] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/13
  398. # [18:14] <rubys> Julian: It doesn't completely address the topic, it is a small piece in the big puzzle
  399. # [18:14] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-13 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  400. # [18:14] <ChrisWilson> ack Julian
  401. # [18:14] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  402. # [18:14] * ChrisWilson presumes that was what Julian wanted to say?
  403. # [18:15] * rubys wonders who that voice was?
  404. # [18:15] * DanC heard larry most recently
  405. # [18:16] <rubys> DanC: I want somebody to ream Thomas's internet draft and make an informed recommendation
  406. # [18:16] <rubys> ChirsWilson: Who raised the issue originally?
  407. # [18:16] <masinter> the document in question has normative language for what HTML forms 'should' do in some cases.
  408. # [18:17] <rubys> ChrisWilson: Julian: will you accept such an action item.
  409. # [18:17] <DanC> (which I suppose means I suggest my proposal of 16 Dec doesn't carry)
  410. # [18:17] <rubys> Julian: yes, two weeks
  411. # [18:17] <masinter> suggest HTML5 could make an informative reference to the document, telling HTML authors there might be some additional advice
  412. # [18:17] <rubys> ChrisWilson: the proposal of December 16 does not carry
  413. # [18:17] <ChrisWilson> 1
  414. # [18:18] * DanC was typing... ACTION Julian: review draft-broyer-http-cookie-auth and advise on ...
  415. # [18:18] * gsnedders notes it was concluded at TPAC to add an action item for him to write a proposal for intro for the authors guide. That was never created.
  416. # [18:18] * DanC but ok... re-using an action # makes sense
  417. # [18:18] <DanC> ACTION-86?
  418. # [18:18] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-86
  419. # [18:18] <trackbot> ACTION-86 -- Dan Connolly to propose to postpone ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status by explaining the problem, noting the lack of solutions, and asking if postponing is acceptable -- due 2008-12-16 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  420. # [18:18] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/86
  421. # [18:18] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-86 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  422. # [18:18] <DanC> ACTION-86?
  423. # [18:18] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-86
  424. # [18:18] <trackbot> ACTION-86 -- Julian Reschke to review Thomas Broyer's IETF ID to see if we can postpone ISSUE-13 -- due 2009-01-22 -- OPEN
  425. # [18:18] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/86
  426. # [18:18] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-86 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  427. # [18:19] <ChrisWilson> action-88?
  428. # [18:19] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-88
  429. # [18:19] <trackbot> ACTION-88 -- Dan Connolly to look into anne's ticket 206755 from iana@iana.org somewhat related to http://www.iana.org/assignments/message-headers/prov/access-control-allow-origin -- due 2008-12-06 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  430. # [18:19] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/88
  431. # [18:19] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-88 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  432. # [18:19] <rubys> DanC: that's done, happy outcome, no further discussion is necessary
  433. # [18:19] <rubys> ChrisWilson: I'll mark it closed
  434. # [18:19] <DanC> close action-88
  435. # [18:19] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-88.
  436. # [18:19] <trackbot> ACTION-88 Look into anne's ticket 206755 from iana@iana.org somewhat related to http://www.iana.org/assignments/message-headers/prov/access-control-allow-origin closed
  437. # [18:19] <ChrisWilson> action-34?
  438. # [18:19] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-34
  439. # [18:19] <trackbot> ACTION-34 -- Lachlan Hunt to prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for publication in some way, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference -- due 2008-12-31 -- OPEN
  440. # [18:19] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/34
  441. # [18:19] <rubys> ChrisWilson: onto overdue action items
  442. # [18:19] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-34 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  443. # [18:20] <rubys> ChrisWilson: anybody know status on this?
  444. # [18:20] <rubys> DanC: I'm hoping to make traction in this space...
  445. # [18:20] <smedero> last update to the author's guide was Nov 28th, 2008.
  446. # [18:20] <rubys> ChrisWilson: I'm assuming that the status is that Lachlan doesn't have enough time to dedicate to this.
  447. # [18:21] <gsnedders> karl said he'd work on it in December, but did very little.
  448. # [18:21] <gsnedders> That is my understanding too.
  449. # [18:21] <DanC> I'm inclined to drop it until somebody does more work
  450. # [18:21] * ChrisWilson doesn't mean that in a negative way - we're all loaded
  451. # [18:21] <rubys> ChrisWilson: should we move the date or seek for additional help
  452. # [18:21] <smedero> gsnedders: hrm, karl actually did a fair bit of work with lachlan... imho.
  453. # [18:21] <gsnedders> smedero: In Dec? Not that I saw.
  454. # [18:21] <rubys> DanC: I'm inclined to drop this action and only reopen if somebody is actively purusing it
  455. # [18:21] <Lachy> I will have enough time. But dealing with selectors api in december and then holidays hasn't given me much
  456. # [18:22] <gsnedders> I might have just not been watching closely
  457. # [18:22] <ChrisWilson> Lachlan - should we just move the date out? To when?
  458. # [18:22] <rubys> multiple-voices: suggest moving the date
  459. # [18:22] <masinter> i suggest re-reviewing this in a week or two
  460. # [18:22] <Lachy> I don't know. Some time in the future.
  461. # [18:22] <DanC> action-34 due 22 Jan 2009
  462. # [18:22] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-34.
  463. # [18:22] <trackbot> ACTION-34 Prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for publication in some way, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference due date now 22 Jan 2009
  464. # [18:23] <ChrisWilson> 3
  465. # [18:23] <ChrisWilson> action-38?
  466. # [18:23] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-38
  467. # [18:23] <trackbot> ACTION-38 -- Michael(tm) Smith to chairs to review need for amending charter with Director -- due 2008-11-25 -- OPEN
  468. # [18:23] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/38
  469. # [18:23] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-38 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  470. # [18:23] <rubys> ChrisWilson: Sam and I need to discuss this... for now, I'll take over this action.
  471. # [18:24] <DanC> q+ to suggest the requirements issues list in response to doug's question
  472. # [18:24] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  473. # [18:24] <rubys> ChrisWilson: the basic issue is that there are a lot of features in the current spec that are not in our charter
  474. # [18:24] <DanC> . http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/2
  475. # [18:24] <pimpbot> Title: Details on Product HTML Principles/Requirements - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  476. # [18:24] <rubys> ChrisWilson: the charter should reflect what we are working on, and what we are working on should reflect reality. That doesn't presuppose what is to change.
  477. # [18:25] <rubys> Is there a list?
  478. # [18:25] <ChrisWilson> ack DanC
  479. # [18:25] <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to suggest the requirements issues list in response to doug's question
  480. # [18:25] * tlr is now known as tlr-bbl
  481. # [18:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  482. # [18:25] <rubys> ChrisWilson: I sent a list.
  483. # [18:25] <rubys> DanC: I keep a list in the tracer under requirements issues
  484. # [18:25] <smedero> That action really dates from the Boston 2007 TPAC.
  485. # [18:25] <smedero> and it was originally brought up with respect to <canvas>
  486. # [18:25] <rubys> DanC: unfortunately, canvas doesn't show up on that page as we closed it
  487. # [18:26] <DanC> (canvas requirement issue is http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/15 )
  488. # [18:26] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-15 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  489. # [18:26] <rubys> ChrisWilson: the charter should mention to the documents we should produce, and nobody believes the schedule
  490. # [18:27] <DanC> (I prefer that the choice of how editors chop the technical scope into documents *not* be in the charter, though the technical scope should.)
  491. # [18:27] <jgraham> DanC: Do you have a pointer to your list?
  492. # [18:27] <DanC> . http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/2
  493. # [18:27] <pimpbot> Title: Details on Product HTML Principles/Requirements - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  494. # [18:27] <rubys> ChrisWilson: if there is to be a web authors guide, it should be in our deliverables
  495. # [18:28] <rubys> ChrisWilson: it need not go down to the level of how many documents we split html5 into, but should cover things we feel are necessary
  496. # [18:29] <hsivonen> (Hixie has discussed those with Lisa Dusseault, too.)
  497. # [18:29] <rubys> Masinter: ... possibility of a better liason with IETF
  498. # [18:29] <DanC> yup
  499. # [18:30] <ChrisWilson> s/"it should be"/ and we consider it critical, perhaps it should be
  500. # [18:30] <ChrisWilson> action-75?
  501. # [18:30] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-75
  502. # [18:30] <trackbot> ACTION-75 -- Michael(tm) Smith to raise question to group about Yes, leave @profile out, No, re-add it -- and cite Hixie's summary of the discussion -- due 2008-12-04 -- OPEN
  503. # [18:30] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/75
  504. # [18:30] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-75 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  505. # [18:30] <anne> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  506. # [18:30] <Zakim> On the phone I see smedero, ChrisWilson, Sam, Julian, Masinter, Shepazu, [Apple], DanC, hsivonen, anne, Mike
  507. # [18:30] <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
  508. # [18:30] <anne> he's not
  509. # [18:31] <anne> or he is, hmm
  510. # [18:31] <anne> Zakim, wake Mike up
  511. # [18:31] <Zakim> I don't understand 'wake Mike up', anne
  512. # [18:31] <rubys> ChrisWilson: passing on Mike's overdue action items for the moment.
  513. # [18:32] <rubys> ChrisWilson: open issues vs raised issues?
  514. # [18:33] <rubys> DanC: issue 13 shows up as having one open action
  515. # [18:33] <Zakim> -Mike
  516. # [18:34] <rubys> ChrisWilson: all 2007 open issues have actions
  517. # [18:34] <ChrisWilson> issue-31?
  518. # [18:34] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-31
  519. # [18:34] <trackbot> ISSUE-31 -- What to do when a reasonable text equivalent is unknown/unavailable? -- OPEN
  520. # [18:34] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31
  521. # [18:34] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-31 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  522. # [18:34] <rubys> Sam: I think we made enoough forward progress for now
  523. # [18:34] <rubys> DanC: who has the ball on alt?
  524. # [18:35] <hsivonen> q+
  525. # [18:35] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  526. # [18:35] <ChrisWilson> ack hsivonen
  527. # [18:35] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  528. # [18:35] <rubys> DanC: demote alt back to raised pile?
  529. # [18:36] <rubys> Henri: the working group working on authoring tool accessibility guidelines is working on this, the ball is in their court.
  530. # [18:36] <DanC> (the group Henri's talking about is http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/ )
  531. # [18:36] <pimpbot> Title: Authoring Tool Accessibility Guidelines Working Group (AUWG) (at www.w3.org)
  532. # [18:36] <rubys> Larry: heard something similar
  533. # [18:37] <rubys> DanC: we need a liaison
  534. # [18:37] <rubys> Larry: I might be able to get some help
  535. # [18:37] <rubys> Larry: postpone for a week?
  536. # [18:37] <rubys> DanC: need an owner
  537. # [18:37] <rubys> Larry: I'll take the action
  538. # [18:38] <rubys> Larry: I'm willing to report back next week
  539. # [18:39] <smedero> Julian recently opened a bug on that: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6336
  540. # [18:39] <rubys> open issues with no actions: svg/mathml and distributed extensibility
  541. # [18:39] <pimpbot> Title: Bug 6336 XSLT-compat doctype only allowed for use by XSLT (at www.w3.org)
  542. # [18:39] <ChrisWilson> issue-54?
  543. # [18:39] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-54
  544. # [18:39] <trackbot> ISSUE-54 -- tools that can't generate <!DOCTYPE html> -- OPEN
  545. # [18:39] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/54
  546. # [18:39] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-54 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  547. # [18:39] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  548. # [18:39] <DanC> ACTION: Larry ask Matt May if he can help represent WAI WGs in the HTML WG
  549. # [18:39] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  550. # [18:39] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Larry
  551. # [18:39] * RRSAgent records action 1
  552. # [18:39] * DanC thinks trackbot has a stale cache ... works around it...
  553. # [18:39] <DanC> ACTION: Dan@@ Larry ask Matt May if he can help represent WAI WGs in the HTML WG
  554. # [18:39] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  555. # [18:39] * RRSAgent records action 2
  556. # [18:39] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Dan@@
  557. # [18:40] <DanC> ACTION: Dan @@ Larry ask Matt May if he can help represent WAI WGs in the HTML WG
  558. # [18:40] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  559. # [18:40] * RRSAgent records action 3
  560. # [18:40] * Quits: trackbot (trackbot@128.30.52.30) (Connection reset by peer)
  561. # [18:40] <DanC> ACTION: DanC @@ Larry ask Matt May if he can help represent WAI WGs in the HTML WG
  562. # [18:40] * RRSAgent records action 4
  563. # [18:40] <rubys> Sam: can we demote 37, 41, and 54 to raised?
  564. # [18:40] <rubys> ChrisWilson: perhaps 54, but we don't want to do 37 and 41.
  565. # [18:41] <DanC> trackbot, status
  566. # [18:41] * DanC :-/
  567. # [18:41] <rubys> Doug: the svg working group is working on 37
  568. # [18:41] <rubys> ChrisWilson: we can create an action for Doug to report back on 37
  569. # [18:42] * DanC suggests doug do issue-37: pointer-to-msg
  570. # [18:42] * Joins: trackbot (trackbot@128.30.52.30)
  571. # [18:42] * shepazu thanks DanC
  572. # [18:42] <ChrisWilson> action shepazu to report back on SVG WG's integration proposal re: issue-37
  573. # [18:42] <DanC> ACTION: Larry ask Matt May if he can help represent WAI WGs in the HTML WG
  574. # [18:42] * RRSAgent records action 5
  575. # [18:42] * hsivonen Doug, do you mean the speculative parsing thread?
  576. # [18:42] <rubys> Sam: who has an action for 54?
  577. # [18:42] <ChrisWilson> ACTION: shepazu to report back on SVG WG's integration proposal re: issue-37
  578. # [18:42] * RRSAgent records action 6
  579. # [18:42] * Joins: alexf (alejandro@85.152.42.1)
  580. # [18:43] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  581. # [18:43] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - shepazu
  582. # [18:43] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  583. # [18:43] <trackbot> Created ACTION-90 - Ask Matt May if he can help represent WAI WGs in the HTML WG [on Larry Masinter - due 2009-01-15].
  584. # [18:43] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  585. # [18:43] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - shepazu
  586. # [18:43] <rubys> Sam: demote 54 to raised?
  587. # [18:43] <Julian> q+
  588. # [18:43] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  589. # [18:43] <DanC> +1 move 54 to raised until somebody does work
  590. # [18:43] * shepazu asks DanC to add me to Tracker
  591. # [18:43] <ChrisWilson> anyone disagree with moving issue-54 back to raised?
  592. # [18:43] <ChrisWilson> ack Julian
  593. # [18:43] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  594. # [18:43] <hsivonen> we have the XSLT-compat string
  595. # [18:44] <rubys> Julian: HTML5 partly addresses issue 54 by the current draft
  596. # [18:44] <hsivonen> q+
  597. # [18:44] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  598. # [18:45] <ChrisWilson> ack Hsivonen
  599. # [18:45] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  600. # [18:45] <DanC> how about one of the co-chairs take an action to pick the strnig/
  601. # [18:45] <DanC> ?
  602. # [18:45] <rubys> Hsivonen: the technical issue is addressed, what is left is a total bikeshed
  603. # [18:45] <Julian> q+
  604. # [18:45] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  605. # [18:45] <ChrisWilson> ack julian
  606. # [18:45] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  607. # [18:46] <DanC> what string is in the document?
  608. # [18:46] <masinter> issue-54 isn't linked from the agenda
  609. # [18:46] <hsivonen> DanC, the string is "XSLT-compat"
  610. # [18:46] <DanC> which page are you using for "the agenda", masinter ?
  611. # [18:47] <hsivonen> I agree with Julian that non-XSLT legacy generators should be allowed to use the same string
  612. # [18:47] <masinter> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
  613. # [18:47] <pimpbot> Title: Input for Agenda Planning for the HTML Weekly - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  614. # [18:47] <Julian> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6336
  615. # [18:47] <pimpbot> Title: Bug 6336 XSLT-compat doctype only allowed for use by XSLT (at www.w3.org)
  616. # [18:47] <Julian> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6336
  617. # [18:47] <rubys> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-doctype
  618. # [18:47] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  619. # [18:47] <Julian> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6336
  620. # [18:47] <pimpbot> Title: Bug 6336 XSLT-compat doctype only allowed for use by XSLT (at www.w3.org)
  621. # [18:47] <smedero> masinter is correct that ISSUE-54 wasn't on the "official" agenda. though the agenda sent out in email did suggest covering all open issues.
  622. # [18:47] <Julian> sorry
  623. # [18:47] <hsivonen> FWIW, the string is deliberately ugly to discourage people from using it
  624. # [18:48] <rubys> Henri, Julian and ChrisWilson are not happy with the current string
  625. # [18:48] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  626. # [18:48] <rubys> Henri: the motivation is to promote the simple doctype
  627. # [18:48] * Quits: trackbot (trackbot@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  628. # [18:48] <rubys> ChrisWilson: I don't see why it matters
  629. # [18:48] <Julian> it doesn't need to be shiny, but it also shouldn't be misleading
  630. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
  631. # [18:49] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  632. # [18:49] <Zakim> +Mike
  633. # [18:49] <rubys> s/XSLT-compat/legacy-compat/ ?
  634. # [18:49] <Julian> At some point, Mike proposed the empty string
  635. # [18:50] <gsnedders> horrible-legacy-compat-string?
  636. # [18:50] <hsivonen> I'd be OK with "legacy-compat"
  637. # [18:50] * shepazu suggests that people will waste time arguing about it no matter what this WG decides :)
  638. # [18:50] <masinter> it's generally a bad idea to specify the language in terms of the identity of the agent that is producing it
  639. # [18:50] <rubys> Sam: suggest moving it to the mailing list
  640. # [18:50] <rubys> ChrisWilson: we need to continue to track it at this level
  641. # [18:50] <DanC> issue-4?
  642. # [18:51] <DanC> sigh. trackbot is hosed
  643. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> (trackbot is gone)
  644. # [18:51] * Joins: trackbot (trackbot@128.30.52.30)
  645. # [18:51] <DanC> trackbot, status
  646. # [18:52] <masinter> i'm confused by what DOCTYPE is used for, what are the requirements?
  647. # [18:52] * trackbot knows about the following 10 users: Chris, Ben, Shawn, Dan, Larry, Michael(tm), Sam, Steve, Joshue, Julian
  648. # [18:52] <anne> masinter, DOCTYPE is used to trigger standards mode
  649. # [18:52] <hsivonen> masinter, the requirements are a string that 1) triggers the standards mode, 2) doesn't look like a public ID and 3) is deliberately ugly
  650. # [18:53] <MikeSmith> issue-4?
  651. # [18:53] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-4
  652. # [18:53] <trackbot> ISSUE-4 -- HTML Versioning and DOCTYPEs -- RAISED
  653. # [18:53] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/4
  654. # [18:53] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-4 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  655. # [18:53] <Julian> some disagree woth requirement 3
  656. # [18:53] <gsnedders> (2 is to make it clear that HTML is _not_ SGML, and 3 is to discourage it because it serves no use)
  657. # [18:53] <rubys> anybody disagree with "legay-compat" ?
  658. # [18:53] <DanC> (I hope to demonstrate what <!DOCTYPE html> does in (an obscure part of) an authoring guide by way of test result data)
  659. # [18:53] <DanC> +1 legacy-compat
  660. # [18:53] <anne> I proposed that some time ago rubys, not sure who disagreed other than Hixie, but memory fails me
  661. # [18:54] <gsnedders> I have no objection to legacy-compat, and I think it's better than xslt-compat
  662. # [18:54] <smedero> hrm, I thought using "legacy-compat" had broad support
  663. # [18:54] * shepazu attacks ChrisWilson
  664. # [18:54] <masinter> there are some general issues with version identification
  665. # [18:55] <DanC> action: Sam propose 'legacy-compat' and report on feedback
  666. # [18:55] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  667. # [18:55] * RRSAgent records action 7
  668. # [18:55] <trackbot> Created ACTION-91 - Propose 'legacy-compat' and report on feedback [on Sam Ruby - due 2009-01-15].
  669. # [18:55] <DanC> ACTION: Larry ask Matt May if he can help represent WAI WGs in the HTML WG
  670. # [18:55] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  671. # [18:55] * RRSAgent records action 8
  672. # [18:55] <trackbot> Created ACTION-92 - Ask Matt May if he can help represent WAI WGs in the HTML WG [on Larry Masinter - due 2009-01-15].
  673. # [18:55] <DanC> ACTION: Doug to report back on SVG WG's integration proposal re: issue-37
  674. # [18:55] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  675. # [18:55] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Doug
  676. # [18:55] * RRSAgent records action 9
  677. # [18:56] <DanC> ACTION: Schepers to report back on SVG WG's integration proposal re: issue-37
  678. # [18:56] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  679. # [18:56] * RRSAgent records action 10
  680. # [18:56] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Schepers
  681. # [18:56] <DanC> trackbot, status
  682. # [18:56] * trackbot knows about the following 10 users: Chris, Ben, Shawn, Dan, Larry, Michael(tm), Sam, Steve, Joshue, Julian
  683. # [18:56] <smedero> Would be useful for issue-54 to have more test data like this: http://philip.html5.org/data/doctypes.html
  684. # [18:56] <pimpbot> Title: Doctypes (at philip.html5.org)
  685. # [18:56] <anne> actually, seems Hixie himself suggested legacy-compat in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-html-wg-minutes.html
  686. # [18:56] * DanC stale cache again. sigh. I give
  687. # [18:56] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face meeting -- 23 Oct 2008 (at www.w3.org)
  688. # [18:56] * anne is confused now
  689. # [18:56] <rubys> Larry: this issue is also related to mandatory error handling and proper versioning
  690. # [18:56] <rubys> ChrisWilson: it is not quite that simple
  691. # [18:58] <rubys> ChrisWilson: adding attribute (even completely new ones) breaks existing sites
  692. # [18:58] <gsnedders> Handling error handling by throwing a fatal error is conforming, per HTML 5.
  693. # [18:58] * shepazu mutters something about using namespaced attributes... :)
  694. # [18:58] * hsivonen mumbles about data-*
  695. # [18:58] <smedero> Versioning is ISSUE-4
  696. # [18:58] * gsnedders mutters something about IE's handling of @xmlns and having to do it differently to XML
  697. # [18:58] <DanC> issue-4?
  698. # [18:58] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-4
  699. # [18:58] <trackbot> ISSUE-4 -- HTML Versioning and DOCTYPEs -- RAISED
  700. # [18:58] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/4
  701. # [18:58] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-4 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  702. # [18:59] * shepazu @hsivonen :)
  703. # [18:59] * ChrisWilson aw, shep, you and that XML stuff...
  704. # [18:59] <hsivonen> I think it isn't productive to revisit the versioning thread
  705. # [18:59] <gsnedders> Nor do I.
  706. # [18:59] <rubys> Misinter: I'm willing to work on issue 4
  707. # [18:59] <anne> best of luck :)
  708. # [19:00] <DanC> well, I think it's productive to propose to close the versioning issue and see who squeaks.
  709. # [19:00] * shepazu @ChrisWilson, it's not just me... there are literally dozens of people who use XML!
  710. # [19:00] * anne lolz
  711. # [19:00] <rubys> Misinter: I'll take an action and report back in three weeks
  712. # [19:00] * gsnedders @shepazu NO WAI
  713. # [19:00] <rubys> ChrisWilson: move that we adjourn
  714. # [19:00] * DanC wonders if rubys has learned the action syntax
  715. # [19:00] <dsinger> thx, bye
  716. # [19:00] <Zakim> -smedero
  717. # [19:00] <DanC> s/Misinter/Masinter/g
  718. # [19:00] <rubys> DanC: not yet
  719. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  720. # [19:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  721. # [19:00] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 08 Jan 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  722. # [19:00] <gsnedders> DanC: I think that's probably as good as anything
  723. # [19:01] * anne thinks we should help the dozen or so people
  724. # [19:01] <Zakim> -Masinter
  725. # [19:01] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  726. # [19:01] <Zakim> -Julian
  727. # [19:01] <DanC> action: Larry make a proposal on doctypes and versioning
  728. # [19:01] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  729. # [19:01] * RRSAgent records action 11
  730. # [19:01] <trackbot> Created ACTION-93 - Make a proposal on doctypes and versioning [on Larry Masinter - due 2009-01-15].
  731. # [19:01] <Zakim> -Shepazu
  732. # [19:01] <Zakim> -hsivonen
  733. # [19:01] <DanC> action-93 due in 3 weeks
  734. # [19:01] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-93.
  735. # [19:01] <trackbot> ACTION-93 Make a proposal on doctypes and versioning due date now in 3 weeks
  736. # [19:01] <DanC> action-93?
  737. # [19:01] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-93
  738. # [19:01] <trackbot> ACTION-93 -- Larry Masinter to make a proposal on doctypes and versioning -- due 1970-01-01 -- OPEN
  739. # [19:01] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/93
  740. # [19:01] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-93 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  741. # [19:01] <DanC> action-93 due 29 Jan 2009
  742. # [19:01] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-93.
  743. # [19:01] <trackbot> ACTION-93 Make a proposal on doctypes and versioning due date now 29 Jan 2009
  744. # [19:01] * shepazu @gsnedders: let's not bring accessibility into this...
  745. # [19:02] <Zakim> -anne
  746. # [19:03] * Joins: tH (Rob@129.11.83.58)
  747. # [19:03] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
  748. # [19:03] <MikeSmith> chair: ChrisWilson
  749. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Sam
  750. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
  751. # [19:04] <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
  752. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Mike
  753. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  754. # [19:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  755. # [19:04] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 08 Jan 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  756. # [19:04] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: sex break)
  757. # [19:04] <DanC> Mike, please help rubys get the minutes to public-html-announce
  758. # [19:05] <DanC> er... public-html-wg-announce
  759. # [19:10] <smedero> DanC: should ISSUE-64 be linked to action-38 ... even with just a note?
  760. # [19:10] <smedero> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/64
  761. # [19:10] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-64 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  762. # [19:10] * DanC steals some attention from tag telcon to take a peek...
  763. # [19:10] <smedero> ahh, sorry
  764. # [19:11] <smedero> action-38 is the chartering issue
  765. # [19:11] <smedero> erm
  766. # [19:11] <smedero> action
  767. # [19:11] <smedero> :-?
  768. # [19:12] <DanC> issue-64?
  769. # [19:12] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-64
  770. # [19:12] <trackbot> ISSUE-64 -- Web Sockets API: in scope? requirement? coordination -- RAISED
  771. # [19:12] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/64
  772. # [19:12] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-64 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  773. # [19:12] * Parts: anne (annevk@84.215.140.104)
  774. # [19:12] <DanC> well, action-38 is connected to the whole list of requirements issues
  775. # [19:12] <DanC> I guess I can connect it that way...
  776. # [19:12] <DanC> it already is
  777. # [19:12] <smedero> ahhh
  778. # [19:12] <smedero> okay
  779. # [19:12] <smedero> :(
  780. # [19:13] <smedero> doh, apologies.
  781. # [19:13] <DanC> no need to apologize
  782. # [19:13] <DanC> people aren't born knowing these things ;-)
  783. # [19:13] <rubys> how do we create a user for doug that so that we can track his action?
  784. # [19:13] <DanC> I did that, but trackbot's cache seems clogged
  785. # [19:13] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52) (Quit: dsinger)
  786. # [19:13] <DanC> somebody in #sysreq maybe can help?
  787. # [19:13] <rubys> if it just a cache issue, we can wait?
  788. # [19:14] <DanC> or you can assign the action to yourself in irc and then change it to doug via the web form interface
  789. # [19:14] <DanC> I think the cache has to be reset manually...
  790. # [19:14] <DanC> trackbot, help?
  791. # [19:14] <trackbot> See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  792. # [19:14] <pimpbot> Title: IRC Trackbot (at www.w3.org)
  793. # [19:14] <DanC> trackbot, init
  794. # [19:15] <DanC> trackbot, status
  795. # [19:15] * trackbot knows about the following 10 users: Chris, Ben, Shawn, Dan, Larry, Michael(tm), Sam, Steve, Joshue, Julian
  796. # [19:15] <DanC> phpht.
  797. # [19:15] <DanC> doug is in the list. http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=41863
  798. # [19:15] <DanC> (which is linked as "issue tracking task force" from the WG home http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ )
  799. # [19:15] <pimpbot> Title: W3C HTML Working Group (at www.w3.org)
  800. # [19:16] <DanC> ah...
  801. # [19:16] <DanC> trackbot, reload
  802. # [19:16] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  803. # [19:16] <DanC> trackbot, status
  804. # [19:16] * trackbot knows about the following 10 users: Chris, Ben, Shawn, Dan, Larry, Michael(tm), Sam, Steve, Joshue, Julian
  805. # [19:16] <DanC> phpht.
  806. # [19:16] <rubys> nobody is responding on #sysreq
  807. # [19:19] <rubys> ACTION: Sam to report back on SVG WG's integration proposal re: issue-37
  808. # [19:19] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  809. # [19:19] * RRSAgent records action 12
  810. # [19:19] <trackbot> Created ACTION-94 - Report back on SVG WG's integration proposal re: issue-37 [on Sam Ruby - due 2009-01-15].
  811. # [19:33] * Parts: alexf (alejandro@85.152.42.1)
  812. # [19:36] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, DanC, in HTML_WG()12:00PM
  813. # [19:36] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  814. # [19:36] <Zakim> Attendees were smedero, ChrisWilson, Sam, Julian, anne, Masinter, Shepazu, dsinger, DanC, hsivonen, Mike
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  843. # [23:34] <Philip> smedero: IE 6/7 do trigger their standards mode with <!doctype html public "">; it's just reported as "limited-quirks" instead, since IE 6/7's standards mode is what other browsers call limited quirks
  844. # [23:34] <smedero> Ahhh
  845. # [23:34] <smedero> bummer
  846. # [23:35] <smedero> feel free to flog me in your reply then ;-)
  847. # [23:35] * Philip is too lazy to reply :-p
  848. # [23:35] <Philip> IE does http://philip.html5.org/docs/quirks.txt so it'll only give quirks mode if you have one of the blacklisted substrings
  849. # [23:38] * smedero replied for you
  850. # [23:38] <smedero> thanks for the heads up
  851. # [23:42] <Philip> Thanks for being less lazy than me :-)
  852. # [23:43] * Philip can't work out what "bumpkis" means as a verb
  853. # [23:43] * Joins: darobin (robinb@81.66.15.230)
  854. # [23:43] <smedero> bumpkis: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bumpkis (sfw)
  855. # [23:43] <pimpbot> Title: Urban Dictionary: bumpkis (at www.urbandictionary.com)
  856. # [23:44] <Philip> That's a noun
  857. # [23:44] <smedero> should've just said what i meant in common english.
  858. # [23:44] <smedero> and you know, proofread.
  859. # [23:45] <Philip> Common English is boring, so please don't limit yourself to that :-)
  860. # [23:45] <smedero> now back to figuring out what i'm going to do when i'm laid off tomorrow.
  861. # [23:46] <Philip> That sounds undesirable
  862. # [23:46] <smedero> indeed
  863. # [23:46] <smedero> i should "if" instead of "when"
  864. # [23:52] <Philip> "if" makes it sound slightly less pessimistic
  865. # [23:53] * Quits: darobin (robinb@81.66.15.230) (Ping timeout)
  866. # [23:57] <gsnedders> smedero: :(
  867. # [23:58] <smedero> one door closes and another opens... that's the old saying, right?
  868. # [23:59] * gsnedders has no idea what he's doing when he leaves school
  869. # Session Close: Fri Jan 09 00:00:01 2009

The end :)