/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-01-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jan 17 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  35. # [08:56] <zenmaster> hey i was wondering if someone could help me with my html
  36. # [08:56] <zenmaster> is anyone available to help?
  37. # [09:00] <Hixie> we can try :-)
  38. # [09:00] <Hixie> depends how much help you need :-)
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  40. # [09:20] <Hixie> bed time
  41. # [09:20] <Hixie> nn
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  65. # [15:31] <Julian> jgraham: the use of namespaces simply follows from the goal to express RDF data
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  73. # [17:30] <takkaria> I think perhaps I don't like RDF because it's ugly
  74. # [17:36] <Julian> takkaria: RDF the data model, RDF/XML or RDFa?
  75. # [17:39] <takkaria> any of the syntaxes I've seen thus far
  76. # [17:41] <anne> the idea is very appealing, but in practice it's just too damn complex
  77. # [17:41] <hsivonen> takkaria: even N-Triples?
  78. # [17:42] <takkaria> n3 looks alright, actually
  79. # [17:44] <hsivonen> takkaria: N-Triples is even simpler
  80. # [17:44] <takkaria> oh, I thought they were the same thing
  81. # [17:45] <takkaria> ah right
  82. # [17:45] <takkaria> yeah, that looks plain enough
  83. # [17:45] <takkaria> using URLs as identifiers is still ugly, though
  84. # [17:47] <hsivonen> yeah, that's a pretty serious misfeature
  85. # [17:48] <Julian> hsivonen: I consider it a feature
  86. # [17:49] <takkaria> I guess I haven't really seen any situations in which using them as identifiers is helpful over doing it some other way
  87. # [17:49] <takkaria> from my pov, anyway
  88. # [17:50] <Julian> You'd need a new system that allows naming in a decentrailzed way
  89. # [17:51] <anne> geolocation+timestamp
  90. # [17:51] <takkaria> given the way that prefixes tend to get used universally anyway, I'm not sure you do
  91. # [17:51] <takkaria> e.g. everyone uses dc: for dublin core
  92. # [17:53] <hsivonen> anne: geolocation+timestamp doesn't work for astronautics
  93. # [17:55] <anne> hsivonen, I wasn't serious, but good point :)
  94. # [17:55] <anne> hsivonen, it might also fail because geolocation is not precise
  95. # [17:56] <takkaria> and it hardly addresses the issue of clunky identifiers :)
  96. # [18:09] <anne> Julian, I don't see how the "does not work in FF" is relevant; it does not have to work in FF because it just creates a new tree using the same mode as the document it was created from
  97. # [18:17] <Julian> anne: I already pointed this out multiple times.
  98. # [18:18] <Julian> anne: the pure XSLT 1.0 workaround is d-o-e, and that produces a text node in the generated DOM that you don't want.
  99. # [18:18] <Julian> Julian: at least, I don't want it :-)
  100. # [18:21] <anne> yes, I'm saying you don't need a DOCTYPE at all in FF
  101. # [18:21] <anne> because you're not creating a serialization, but a document
  102. # [18:22] <Julian> Anne: but in that case I need different versions of my XSLT code, depending on where they are executed.
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  104. # [18:23] <Julian> Anne: and also different versions for different UAs (I think); those that serialize and reparse will want the doctype, right?
  105. # [18:23] <anne> are there any UAs that serialize and reparse? sounds buggy
  106. # [18:24] <anne> Opera might do that though, don't remember
  107. # [18:24] <Julian> I through all except FF do.
  108. # [18:24] <Julian> s/through/thought/
  109. # [18:24] <anne> interesting
  110. # [18:26] <anne> what else is being helped by <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC ""> ?
  111. # [18:31] <Julian> I just tested a minimal XSLT that uses xsl:text/@d-o-e, and the text node only appears in FF, not in Opera, IE or Safari. Which suggests that these three re-parse...
  112. # [18:32] <Julian> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC ""> helps XSLT 1.0 and JAXP. I currently live in Java land, so this would make *me* happy.
  113. # [18:32] <Julian> If there are other serialization methods that are both widely used, can't be simply updated, and can't produce *that*, then we should of course help them as well.
  114. # [18:34] <anne> I would assume most serializers to be able to produce the SYSTEM variant, as that is actually correct per XML
  115. # [18:38] <Julian> Anne, but just PUBLIC "" is correct per XML as well, isn't it (wo what's correct doesn't really help determining what's best(
  116. # [18:41] <anne> i don't think it is
  117. # [18:41] <anne> and it gives a well-formedness error in at least two browsers I use
  118. # [18:41] <Philip> doctypedecl ::= '<!DOCTYPE' S Name (S ExternalID)? S? ('[' intSubset ']' S?)? '>'
  119. # [18:41] <Philip> ExternalID ::= 'SYSTEM' S SystemLiteral | 'PUBLIC' S PubidLiteral S SystemLiteral
  120. # [18:41] <Philip> Seems like it doesn't allow just PUBLIC
  121. # [18:41] <anne> thanks Philip
  122. # [18:41] <anne> saves me from looking again
  123. # [18:43] <Julian> indeed.
  124. # [18:44] <Julian> I'm not sure that XML compliance is essential, as this was for producing text/html. But if producing content that is both text/html and application/xhtml+xml *is* a use case, XML compliance will be needed.
  125. # [18:46] <Philip> XML compliance is useful for compatibility with text/html serialisers that have inherited XML's constraints
  126. # [18:46] <Philip> (which appears to be a non-zero number)
  127. # [18:46] <gsnedders> (annoyingly)
  128. # [18:47] <Philip> (but I don't know how many have users who would care, and who can't print strings to the output stream themselves, and can't upgrade the library or switch to a different library)
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  130. # [19:23] <Lachy> Julian, I don't understand how this reply of yours is relevant to what I had said http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jan/0188.html
  131. # [19:23] <pimpbot> Title: Re: ISSUE-54: doctype-legacy-compat from Julian Reschke on 2009-01-17 (public-html@w3.org from January 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  132. # [19:24] <Lachy> If there's another reason for needing the DOCTYPE to be XML well-formed, what is it?
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  134. # [20:11] <Julian> Lachy: maybe I msiread what you said.
  135. # [20:11] <Lachy> ok
  136. # [20:11] <Julian> Lachy: the reason for having an additional doctype variant was to allow legacy tools to creare *valid* documents.
  137. # [20:12] <Julian> Lachy: at least from my point of view it had nothing to do with XML compliance.
  138. # [20:15] <Lachy> I understand the reason for introducing a second doctype. But that's irrelevant to what I was talking about.
  139. # [20:16] <Lachy> I was saying that the DOCTYPEs we introduce should be well-formed XML so that they can be used in either HTML or XHTML without any problems
  140. # [20:19] <Julian> ack
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The end :)