/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-01-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jan 23 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  10. # [01:13] <shepazu> gsnedders: were you on the chat?
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  21. # [03:23] <karl> http://twitter.com/yvg/statuses/1138974788
  22. # [03:23] <pimpbot> Title: Twitter / Yves Van Goethem: @perishable the target att ... (at twitter.com)
  23. # [03:24] <karl> hmmm who created xhtml 1.2 when I was not watching… damned
  24. # [03:26] <shepazu> karl!!
  25. # [03:28] <karl> http://www.enkidu.cx/stumble/poster92654750.jpg
  26. # [03:30] <shepazu> heh
  27. # [03:30] <karl> shepazu! ᒃ‿ᒄ
  28. # [03:31] <shepazu> ooh, nice smiley
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  35. # [04:35] <karl> "There is no official roadmap for IE9, but native SVG support is likely." -- http://blog.wired.com/business/2009/01/more-details-ab.html
  36. # [04:35] <pimpbot> Title: More Details About IE8, Web Standards and Performance | Epicenter from Wired.com (at blog.wired.com)
  37. # [04:36] <shepazu> yeah, I wonder how much wired is reading into that
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  72. # [11:06] <pimpbot> planet: Why are (X)HTML 5 and XHTML 2 separate standards? <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/472274/why-are-xhtml-5-and-xhtml-2-separate-standards>
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  80. # [11:43] <anne> MikeSmith, http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/diff/ redirects to the HTML5 specification rather than http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/
  81. # [11:43] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 differences from HTML 4 (at dev.w3.org)
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  85. # [11:44] * MikeSmith looks now
  86. # [11:46] <MikeSmith> anne: systeam commented out the redirect to dev.w3.org stuff that I had set up previously
  87. # [11:46] * MikeSmith tries to figure out where the redirect is being done now
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  89. # [11:50] * anne reads in the source code of html5-diff that MikeSmith owes him a beer
  90. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> anne: I reckon I owe you quite a few beers
  91. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> anne: I fixed the redirect do that it goes to the right place now
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  93. # [11:51] <anne> cool
  94. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> I will probably get my ass kicked
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  96. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> our HTML5 docs in dev.w3.org are apparently causing a lot of load on that machine
  97. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> robots crawling
  98. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> I don't know what to do about that
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  100. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> the only alternative would be to move everything to www.w3.org and set up ACLs for editors
  101. # [11:52] <anne> every time a checkin is made you make a static copy on www.w3.org?
  102. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> no
  103. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> I'm just redirecting them now
  104. # [11:52] <anne> no, it's a suggestion :)
  105. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> oh
  106. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> yeah, I could do that
  107. # [11:53] <anne> and then maybe place a redirect on dev.w3.org back to www.w3.org in a .htaccess
  108. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> not sure how much it would help, because the dev.w3.org links are already out there in the wild
  109. # [11:53] <Philip> I thought HTTP was wonderful because it was easily scalable with caches and stuff
  110. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> hmm, yeah
  111. # [11:53] <anne> because dev.w3.org does not need to be accessed through HTTP anyway
  112. # [11:53] <Philip> and it shouldn't need any load on the original server for static documents
  113. # [11:53] <anne> for the html5 spec, that is
  114. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> anne: I guess I could do all that
  115. # [11:54] <gsnedders> shepazu: yes
  116. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> I'd much rather that we got some more hardware behind dev.w3.org
  117. # [11:54] <gsnedders> shepazu: Also, one of my English teachers really reminds me of you
  118. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> since we all (HTML WG and WebApps WG and SVG WG and ...) find it pretty useful
  119. # [11:55] <Philip> Do the less cool WGs not find it similarly useful?
  120. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> anne: the thing that sucks about redirecting back to www.w3.org would be that CVS history is not publicly accessible
  121. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> Philip: I don't keep up as much with things outside of our collective microverse
  122. # [11:57] <anne> MikeSmith, it would be actually
  123. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> and as far as writing static copies somewhere after each checkin, I don't have admin access to the CVS server to write commit hooks
  124. # [11:58] <anne> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/ is a completely different URL
  125. # [11:58] <pimpbot> Title: html5/spec/ (at dev.w3.org)
  126. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> hmm, true
  127. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> well, I can set up an e-mail- based hack to write static copies for each checkin
  128. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> I probably ought to get around to doing that before I get fire rained down upon me for having set up the redirects to dev.w3.org after they commented out the rewrites I had set up originally
  129. # [12:00] <anne> once that is in place you could start thinking of making a multipage version for W3C editor drafts
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  131. # [12:00] <anne> :)
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  133. # [12:04] <hsivonen> DanC: what's "DanC: the funding negotiation I've been doing with adobe about authoring materials is done" about?
  134. # [12:08] <anne> I assume it's because DanC is currently part time W3C staff
  135. # [12:22] <anne> MikeSmith, don't want to keep bothering you with bug reports, but @html5 on twitter often reports weird links, maybe because maxlength is not properly observed or something
  136. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> anne: there are other problems with that, including that the colored diffs it's linking to often (or maybe always) don't actually have the diff content marked up
  137. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> I'm using the online diff generator to make them
  138. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> I need to switch to using a local diff generator on the server where the diffs are actually stored
  139. # [12:27] <anne> are those diffs actually used by anyone?
  140. # [12:27] <hsivonen> anne: does it mean that Adobe is going to fund authoring material development by DanC?
  141. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> anne: probably not, given that nobody's noticed and complained
  142. # [12:27] <anne> hsivonen, my reading is that it might
  143. # [12:29] <anne> I think it would be nice to have markup like diffs on web-apps-tracker & co, but I'm not sure how to do it without a) wasting little time and b) not having to waste a lot of time catching all the little bugs people will notice because
  144. # [12:30] <anne> basically, I only have a vague idea how to do an imperfect solution
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  152. # [13:49] <anne> wow, this is a lot of work
  153. # [13:49] <anne> I'm at the end of July now
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  158. # [14:06] <anne> I'm not even sure I'm willing to keep this up, geez
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  163. # [14:31] <anne> am I glad Web Forms 2.0 took longer than a month
  164. # [14:32] <anne> halfway October now
  165. # [14:32] <anne> mostly thanks to Web Forms 2.0
  166. # [14:34] <Philip> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/ has an encoding error - it's sent with charset=iso-8859-1 but has a UTF-8 character in "Latest Editor’s Draft:"
  167. # [14:34] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 differences from HTML 4 (at www.w3.org)
  168. # [14:38] <shepazu> gsnedders: you don't have a transcript of that MS IE chat, then, do you?
  169. # [14:39] <anne> Philip, webreq@w3.org
  170. # [14:53] <Philip> anne: Too lazy
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  178. # [16:35] <anne> hsivonen, DanC just posted what I thought he was working on :)
  179. # [16:35] <DanC> yup
  180. # [16:36] <hsivonen> ok
  181. # [16:36] <anne> though I'm not sure how it would offload Ian, but I guess we'll see
  182. # [16:37] <anne> congratulations btw, DanC
  183. # [16:38] <DanC> that part got in there because some compliance person was confused; "who is Ian Hickson? does he work for Adobe?" I suppose I could have left it out of the quote
  184. # [16:38] <DanC> and thanks!
  185. # [16:38] <anne> as I said on #whatwg, I like your outline
  186. # [16:39] <DanC> ah. good to know. I'm a little behind on Web Directions keynote prep, but I hope to clear my desk for writing soon
  187. # [16:42] <anne> cool
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  195. # [18:28] <anne> done
  196. # [18:29] <anne> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/
  197. # [18:29] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 differences from HTML 4 (at dev.w3.org)
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  201. # [18:55] <Philip> anne: "The changelogs in this section mostly indicate what has been changed." - if that's what they mostly indicate, what else do they indicate too?
  202. # [18:55] * tlr is now known as tlr-bbl
  203. # [18:56] <Philip> anne: "The changelogs are placed in reverse chronological order." - seems much more understandable to say "(most recent first)" instead of that sentence
  204. # [18:56] <Philip> Oh, but it's earliest first
  205. # [18:57] <Philip> so that sentence is not just hard to understand, it's actively easy to misunderstand :-)
  206. # [18:57] <Philip> "The behavior of the type attribute of the link has been clarified." - should be "link element"
  207. # [19:00] <Philip> "If the alt attribute is omitted a title attribute, an enclosing figure element with a legend element descendant, or an enclosing section with an associated must be present." - an associated what?
  208. # [19:03] <anne> must
  209. # [19:03] <Philip> "The changes since the publication on 22 January 2008 are as follows:" should probably say "The additional changes", to be clear that it's not listing all the changes from that publication to the current one
  210. # [19:03] <anne> Philip, they sometimes give rationale for the changes as well, besides just listing the changes
  211. # [19:04] <anne> made that "changes between the 22 January 2008 and 10 June 2008 publication"
  212. # [19:05] <anne> publications*
  213. # [19:05] <anne> but maybe I should just drop that
  214. # [19:05] <anne> the "mostly indicate" bit
  215. # [19:07] <Philip> It just seems to read a bit strangely, since it's telling you the obvious thing (that the changelogs indicate changes) but hinting that there's more which it's not going to tell you yet
  216. # [19:08] <anne> refresh
  217. # [19:10] <Philip> Looks fine to me now
  218. # [19:10] <Philip> Just realised that I was still misunderstanding the chronological thing, since I mixed up 'changes' and 'changelogs'
  219. # [19:11] <anne> if you're not the only one I suppose I can just remove it, but I rather like it :)
  220. # [19:11] <Philip> Perhaps the changelogs could each be subsections, so they're easy to find in the TOC?
  221. # [19:16] <anne> wasn't sure about good titles that wouldn't be too long
  222. # [19:16] <anne> but yeah
  223. # [19:19] <Philip> Would "Changes since 10 June 2008", "Changes from 22 January 2008 to 10 June 2008" be too long?
  224. # [19:20] <anne> yes, but I'll do it anyway
  225. # [19:21] <Philip> "Changes since 2008-06-10" would be a bit shorter
  226. # [19:21] <Philip> Anyway, everyone nowadays has widescreen monitors, so you can fit a lot in a heading :-)
  227. # [19:22] <Philip> although a heading like "Things that you can't do with this specification because they are better handled using other technologies that are further described herein" is certainly pushing towards the limit
  228. # [19:37] <DanC> more people have handhelds than widescreen monitors, don't forget
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  230. # [19:37] <Philip> If they turn their handheld by 90 degrees then it'll be widescreen too
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  250. # [22:28] <anne> what Larry suggests seems untrue, there are different criteria for FPWD and normal WDs...
  251. # [22:35] <Philip> I'd be more concerned about there having been very little review of markup-spec compared to the main spec, and it being misleading to present both as being similarly authoritative
  252. # [22:37] <Hixie> i just wish i knew who the spec was for so i could review it
  253. # [22:38] <anne> I'm not really concerned either way although the way everyone gets upset over it should maybe make me worried
  254. # [22:43] <hober> If it were someone other than Mike Smith authoring it, I'd be worried of it being a subversive attempt to replace what we have with some kind of HTML4-like underspecification.
  255. # [22:43] <hober> But Mike rules, so it's not that.
  256. # [22:44] <gsnedders> hober: I think it's just Mike trying to unsettle the cabal
  257. # [22:45] <anne> Hixie, the TAG?
  258. # [22:45] <Lachy> hober, it's Mike's attempt to split the spec into separate language and browser specs
  259. # [22:45] <anne> it seems that Web authors like it too though, most don't really care about JavaScript
  260. # [22:45] <Hixie> anne: well if that's the audience, it should say so
  261. # [22:46] <Hixie> right now, i've no idea how to review it
  262. # [22:46] <Lachy> authors will get the authoring guide, without the inappropriate RNG schemas that they don't need.
  263. # [22:47] <Lachy> if it were for people who were implementing conformance checkers, either like v.nu or integrated into editors, CMSs, etc., then it makes sense
  264. # [22:47] <Hixie> depending on who the draft is for, i might well be very happy to have it
  265. # [22:48] <Philip> It seems necessary to be careful about distinguishing people liking the markup-spec, from people liking the concept but not actually having bothered reading it and therefore not providing constructive feedback like "it needs more examples" or "it needs less schema" or "it needs to say how a browser's going to process what I type in" or whatever
  266. # [22:48] <Hixie> if it's for conformance checkers, it's missing the parser spec
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  268. # [22:49] <anne> Philip, prolly, I have the feeling some people like it because of were the objections against it came from
  269. # [22:49] <Lachy> I realise that. That's what I pointed out in my mail in November
  270. # [22:55] * Joins: DanC (connolly@128.30.52.30)
  271. # [23:03] <anne> http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2009/microformats-accessibility-html-5-again/#comment-594009 can't wait for what brucel thinks of RDFa
  272. # [23:03] <pimpbot> Title: Bruce Lawsons personal site : microformats, accessibility, HTML 5 (again) (at www.brucelawson.co.uk)
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The end :)