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- # Session Start: Fri Jan 23 00:00:00 2009
- # Session Ident: #html-wg
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- # [01:13] <shepazu> gsnedders: were you on the chat?
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- # [03:23] <karl> http://twitter.com/yvg/statuses/1138974788
- # [03:23] <pimpbot> Title: Twitter / Yves Van Goethem: @perishable the target att ... (at twitter.com)
- # [03:24] <karl> hmmm who created xhtml 1.2 when I was not watching… damned
- # [03:26] <shepazu> karl!!
- # [03:28] <karl> http://www.enkidu.cx/stumble/poster92654750.jpg
- # [03:30] <shepazu> heh
- # [03:30] <karl> shepazu! ᒃ‿ᒄ
- # [03:31] <shepazu> ooh, nice smiley
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- # [04:35] <karl> "There is no official roadmap for IE9, but native SVG support is likely." -- http://blog.wired.com/business/2009/01/more-details-ab.html
- # [04:35] <pimpbot> Title: More Details About IE8, Web Standards and Performance | Epicenter from Wired.com (at blog.wired.com)
- # [04:36] <shepazu> yeah, I wonder how much wired is reading into that
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- # [11:06] <pimpbot> planet: Why are (X)HTML 5 and XHTML 2 separate standards? <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/472274/why-are-xhtml-5-and-xhtml-2-separate-standards>
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- # [11:43] <anne> MikeSmith, http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/diff/ redirects to the HTML5 specification rather than http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/
- # [11:43] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 differences from HTML 4 (at dev.w3.org)
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- # [11:44] * MikeSmith looks now
- # [11:46] <MikeSmith> anne: systeam commented out the redirect to dev.w3.org stuff that I had set up previously
- # [11:46] * MikeSmith tries to figure out where the redirect is being done now
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- # [11:50] * anne reads in the source code of html5-diff that MikeSmith owes him a beer
- # [11:50] <MikeSmith> anne: I reckon I owe you quite a few beers
- # [11:50] <MikeSmith> anne: I fixed the redirect do that it goes to the right place now
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- # [11:51] <anne> cool
- # [11:51] <MikeSmith> I will probably get my ass kicked
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- # [11:51] <MikeSmith> our HTML5 docs in dev.w3.org are apparently causing a lot of load on that machine
- # [11:51] <MikeSmith> robots crawling
- # [11:51] <MikeSmith> I don't know what to do about that
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- # [11:52] <MikeSmith> the only alternative would be to move everything to www.w3.org and set up ACLs for editors
- # [11:52] <anne> every time a checkin is made you make a static copy on www.w3.org?
- # [11:52] <MikeSmith> no
- # [11:52] <MikeSmith> I'm just redirecting them now
- # [11:52] <anne> no, it's a suggestion :)
- # [11:52] <MikeSmith> oh
- # [11:53] <MikeSmith> yeah, I could do that
- # [11:53] <anne> and then maybe place a redirect on dev.w3.org back to www.w3.org in a .htaccess
- # [11:53] <MikeSmith> not sure how much it would help, because the dev.w3.org links are already out there in the wild
- # [11:53] <Philip> I thought HTTP was wonderful because it was easily scalable with caches and stuff
- # [11:53] <MikeSmith> hmm, yeah
- # [11:53] <anne> because dev.w3.org does not need to be accessed through HTTP anyway
- # [11:53] <Philip> and it shouldn't need any load on the original server for static documents
- # [11:53] <anne> for the html5 spec, that is
- # [11:53] <MikeSmith> anne: I guess I could do all that
- # [11:54] <gsnedders> shepazu: yes
- # [11:54] <MikeSmith> I'd much rather that we got some more hardware behind dev.w3.org
- # [11:54] <gsnedders> shepazu: Also, one of my English teachers really reminds me of you
- # [11:54] <MikeSmith> since we all (HTML WG and WebApps WG and SVG WG and ...) find it pretty useful
- # [11:55] <Philip> Do the less cool WGs not find it similarly useful?
- # [11:55] <MikeSmith> anne: the thing that sucks about redirecting back to www.w3.org would be that CVS history is not publicly accessible
- # [11:56] <MikeSmith> Philip: I don't keep up as much with things outside of our collective microverse
- # [11:57] <anne> MikeSmith, it would be actually
- # [11:57] <MikeSmith> and as far as writing static copies somewhere after each checkin, I don't have admin access to the CVS server to write commit hooks
- # [11:58] <anne> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/ is a completely different URL
- # [11:58] <pimpbot> Title: html5/spec/ (at dev.w3.org)
- # [11:58] <MikeSmith> hmm, true
- # [11:59] <MikeSmith> well, I can set up an e-mail- based hack to write static copies for each checkin
- # [12:00] <MikeSmith> I probably ought to get around to doing that before I get fire rained down upon me for having set up the redirects to dev.w3.org after they commented out the rewrites I had set up originally
- # [12:00] <anne> once that is in place you could start thinking of making a multipage version for W3C editor drafts
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- # [12:00] <anne> :)
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- # [12:04] <hsivonen> DanC: what's "DanC: the funding negotiation I've been doing with adobe about authoring materials is done" about?
- # [12:08] <anne> I assume it's because DanC is currently part time W3C staff
- # [12:22] <anne> MikeSmith, don't want to keep bothering you with bug reports, but @html5 on twitter often reports weird links, maybe because maxlength is not properly observed or something
- # [12:25] <MikeSmith> anne: there are other problems with that, including that the colored diffs it's linking to often (or maybe always) don't actually have the diff content marked up
- # [12:26] <MikeSmith> I'm using the online diff generator to make them
- # [12:27] <MikeSmith> I need to switch to using a local diff generator on the server where the diffs are actually stored
- # [12:27] <anne> are those diffs actually used by anyone?
- # [12:27] <hsivonen> anne: does it mean that Adobe is going to fund authoring material development by DanC?
- # [12:27] <MikeSmith> anne: probably not, given that nobody's noticed and complained
- # [12:27] <anne> hsivonen, my reading is that it might
- # [12:29] <anne> I think it would be nice to have markup like diffs on web-apps-tracker & co, but I'm not sure how to do it without a) wasting little time and b) not having to waste a lot of time catching all the little bugs people will notice because
- # [12:30] <anne> basically, I only have a vague idea how to do an imperfect solution
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- # [13:49] <anne> wow, this is a lot of work
- # [13:49] <anne> I'm at the end of July now
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- # [14:06] <anne> I'm not even sure I'm willing to keep this up, geez
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- # [14:31] <anne> am I glad Web Forms 2.0 took longer than a month
- # [14:32] <anne> halfway October now
- # [14:32] <anne> mostly thanks to Web Forms 2.0
- # [14:34] <Philip> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/ has an encoding error - it's sent with charset=iso-8859-1 but has a UTF-8 character in "Latest Editor’s Draft:"
- # [14:34] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 differences from HTML 4 (at www.w3.org)
- # [14:38] <shepazu> gsnedders: you don't have a transcript of that MS IE chat, then, do you?
- # [14:39] <anne> Philip, webreq@w3.org
- # [14:53] <Philip> anne: Too lazy
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- # [16:35] <anne> hsivonen, DanC just posted what I thought he was working on :)
- # [16:35] <DanC> yup
- # [16:36] <hsivonen> ok
- # [16:36] <anne> though I'm not sure how it would offload Ian, but I guess we'll see
- # [16:37] <anne> congratulations btw, DanC
- # [16:38] <DanC> that part got in there because some compliance person was confused; "who is Ian Hickson? does he work for Adobe?" I suppose I could have left it out of the quote
- # [16:38] <DanC> and thanks!
- # [16:38] <anne> as I said on #whatwg, I like your outline
- # [16:39] <DanC> ah. good to know. I'm a little behind on Web Directions keynote prep, but I hope to clear my desk for writing soon
- # [16:42] <anne> cool
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- # [18:28] <anne> done
- # [18:29] <anne> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/
- # [18:29] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 differences from HTML 4 (at dev.w3.org)
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- # [18:55] <Philip> anne: "The changelogs in this section mostly indicate what has been changed." - if that's what they mostly indicate, what else do they indicate too?
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- # [18:56] <Philip> anne: "The changelogs are placed in reverse chronological order." - seems much more understandable to say "(most recent first)" instead of that sentence
- # [18:56] <Philip> Oh, but it's earliest first
- # [18:57] <Philip> so that sentence is not just hard to understand, it's actively easy to misunderstand :-)
- # [18:57] <Philip> "The behavior of the type attribute of the link has been clarified." - should be "link element"
- # [19:00] <Philip> "If the alt attribute is omitted a title attribute, an enclosing figure element with a legend element descendant, or an enclosing section with an associated must be present." - an associated what?
- # [19:03] <anne> must
- # [19:03] <Philip> "The changes since the publication on 22 January 2008 are as follows:" should probably say "The additional changes", to be clear that it's not listing all the changes from that publication to the current one
- # [19:03] <anne> Philip, they sometimes give rationale for the changes as well, besides just listing the changes
- # [19:04] <anne> made that "changes between the 22 January 2008 and 10 June 2008 publication"
- # [19:05] <anne> publications*
- # [19:05] <anne> but maybe I should just drop that
- # [19:05] <anne> the "mostly indicate" bit
- # [19:07] <Philip> It just seems to read a bit strangely, since it's telling you the obvious thing (that the changelogs indicate changes) but hinting that there's more which it's not going to tell you yet
- # [19:08] <anne> refresh
- # [19:10] <Philip> Looks fine to me now
- # [19:10] <Philip> Just realised that I was still misunderstanding the chronological thing, since I mixed up 'changes' and 'changelogs'
- # [19:11] <anne> if you're not the only one I suppose I can just remove it, but I rather like it :)
- # [19:11] <Philip> Perhaps the changelogs could each be subsections, so they're easy to find in the TOC?
- # [19:16] <anne> wasn't sure about good titles that wouldn't be too long
- # [19:16] <anne> but yeah
- # [19:19] <Philip> Would "Changes since 10 June 2008", "Changes from 22 January 2008 to 10 June 2008" be too long?
- # [19:20] <anne> yes, but I'll do it anyway
- # [19:21] <Philip> "Changes since 2008-06-10" would be a bit shorter
- # [19:21] <Philip> Anyway, everyone nowadays has widescreen monitors, so you can fit a lot in a heading :-)
- # [19:22] <Philip> although a heading like "Things that you can't do with this specification because they are better handled using other technologies that are further described herein" is certainly pushing towards the limit
- # [19:37] <DanC> more people have handhelds than widescreen monitors, don't forget
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- # [19:37] <Philip> If they turn their handheld by 90 degrees then it'll be widescreen too
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- # [22:28] <anne> what Larry suggests seems untrue, there are different criteria for FPWD and normal WDs...
- # [22:35] <Philip> I'd be more concerned about there having been very little review of markup-spec compared to the main spec, and it being misleading to present both as being similarly authoritative
- # [22:37] <Hixie> i just wish i knew who the spec was for so i could review it
- # [22:38] <anne> I'm not really concerned either way although the way everyone gets upset over it should maybe make me worried
- # [22:43] <hober> If it were someone other than Mike Smith authoring it, I'd be worried of it being a subversive attempt to replace what we have with some kind of HTML4-like underspecification.
- # [22:43] <hober> But Mike rules, so it's not that.
- # [22:44] <gsnedders> hober: I think it's just Mike trying to unsettle the cabal
- # [22:45] <anne> Hixie, the TAG?
- # [22:45] <Lachy> hober, it's Mike's attempt to split the spec into separate language and browser specs
- # [22:45] <anne> it seems that Web authors like it too though, most don't really care about JavaScript
- # [22:45] <Hixie> anne: well if that's the audience, it should say so
- # [22:46] <Hixie> right now, i've no idea how to review it
- # [22:46] <Lachy> authors will get the authoring guide, without the inappropriate RNG schemas that they don't need.
- # [22:47] <Lachy> if it were for people who were implementing conformance checkers, either like v.nu or integrated into editors, CMSs, etc., then it makes sense
- # [22:47] <Hixie> depending on who the draft is for, i might well be very happy to have it
- # [22:48] <Philip> It seems necessary to be careful about distinguishing people liking the markup-spec, from people liking the concept but not actually having bothered reading it and therefore not providing constructive feedback like "it needs more examples" or "it needs less schema" or "it needs to say how a browser's going to process what I type in" or whatever
- # [22:48] <Hixie> if it's for conformance checkers, it's missing the parser spec
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- # [22:49] <anne> Philip, prolly, I have the feeling some people like it because of were the objections against it came from
- # [22:49] <Lachy> I realise that. That's what I pointed out in my mail in November
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- # [23:03] <anne> http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2009/microformats-accessibility-html-5-again/#comment-594009 can't wait for what brucel thinks of RDFa
- # [23:03] <pimpbot> Title: Bruce Lawsons personal site : microformats, accessibility, HTML 5 (again) (at www.brucelawson.co.uk)
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The end :)