/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-01-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jan 26 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  43. # [15:00] <karl> 90 emails about about:
  44. # [15:02] <Julian> sounds about right
  45. # [15:06] * Parts: alexf (alejandro@85.152.42.1)
  46. # [15:07] <karl> 1 James Graham
  47. # [15:07] <karl> 1 Jon Barnett
  48. # [15:07] <karl> 1 Jonas Sicking
  49. # [15:07] <karl> 1 Larry Massinter
  50. # [15:07] <karl> 1 Maciej Stachowiak
  51. # [15:07] <karl> 1 Michael A. Puls II
  52. # [15:07] <karl> 1 Philip Taylor
  53. # [15:07] <karl> 2 Ian Hickson
  54. # [15:07] <karl> 2 Robert J Burns
  55. # [15:07] <karl> 2 Shawn Medero
  56. # [15:07] <karl> 3 Boris Zbarsky
  57. # [15:07] <karl> 3 Dan Connolly
  58. # [15:07] <karl> 3 Thomas Broyer
  59. # [15:07] <karl> 4 Anne van Kesteren
  60. # [15:07] <karl> 4 Robin Berjon
  61. # [15:07] <karl> 5 Lachlan Hunt
  62. # [15:07] <karl> 5 Leif Halvard Silli
  63. # [15:07] <karl> 6 Karl Dubost
  64. # [15:07] <karl> 6 Philip TAYLOR
  65. # [15:07] <karl> 8 Henry Sivonen
  66. # [15:07] <karl> 8 Jirka Kosek
  67. # [15:07] <karl> 10 Julian Reschke
  68. # [15:07] <karl> 12 Sam Ruby
  69. # [15:08] <Philip> When you say "about:", do you mean "ISSUE-54: doctype-legacy-compat"?
  70. # [15:09] <karl> Philip: yes
  71. # [15:21] <hsivonen> karl: like I said before the thread started: it's a total bikeshed
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  73. # [15:50] <karl> hsivonen: what bothers me is not the popularity but more that there are not that many messages about the doctype and its interaction with implementations, and not only browser implementations but all the rest. My focus being more on authoring tools
  74. # [16:00] <hsivonen> karl: authoring tools need to be updated in order to be able to author new language features, though, so authoring tool compat is somewhat less important
  75. # [16:01] <Philip> Does "authoring tool" include HTML-serialiser libraries, or are they are separate class?
  76. # [16:02] <Lachy> karl, authoring tools that allow source code editing will have no problem outputting any DOCTYPE the author wants
  77. # [16:02] <hsivonen> Philip: I'm not sure what karl meant, but I meant tools like BlueGriffon and Dreamweaver
  78. # [16:03] <Lachy> authoring tools that only allow WYSIWYG editing, and no direct source code editing, aren't affected since they'll continue to output HTML4/XHTML1 until they are updated
  79. # [16:03] <Lachy> so the problem being solved by the DOCTYPE only relates to automated serialisers
  80. # [16:04] <hsivonen> at least Dreamweaver preserves <!DOCTYPE html> just fine
  81. # [16:10] * Philip 's very incomplete listing of HTML serialiser behaviour seems to have quite entirely failed at encouraging other people to look at other serialisers and make the list less incomplete
  82. # [16:10] * zcorpan is glad to have stayed out of the doctype-legacy-compat discussion (at least on the list)
  83. # [16:12] <zcorpan> Philip: doing research is more work than just stating one's opinion
  84. # [16:17] <Julian> Philip: I don't think a "complete" list is essential -- if the problem hasn't surfaced yet for a particular library, maybe it's just because nobody cares?
  85. # [16:18] * karl has no energy to voice again why I don't agree with the "somewhat less important". I'll pass… like many things before.
  86. # [16:23] <Philip> Julian: I expect nobody in the WG cares about the libraries I looked at (and I certainly don't care about them myself), but it seems useful to look at them anyway since perhaps someone in the world cares and we can find ways to help those people without imposing any extra cost on anybody else
  87. # [16:23] <Philip> (e.g. using SYSTEM instead of PUBLIC)
  88. # [16:25] <Julian> Philip: I do not disagree with that. What I disagree with is that we need to consider "all" serializers.
  89. # [16:26] <Philip> Julian: I agree with your disagreement
  90. # [16:27] <Philip> Julian: It just seems like nobody has looked at *any*, other than (I think) XSLT and JAXP that you mentioned originally, and the handful of others that I picked at random
  91. # [16:27] <Julian> Philip: so maybe that means that nobody cares?
  92. # [16:28] <Philip> Julian: It means nobody in the WG cares, and the number of people in the WG is small enough that there's a huge statistical error
  93. # [16:29] <Julian> Philip: well, there's a public working draft, so my assumption is that if there are other libraries that suffer from the DOCTYPE issue we would have heard about it.
  94. # [16:33] <Philip> Julian: As far as I can remember, you are the only person in the entire world who has notified the WG about libraries suffering from the issue, which seems like insufficient data to get a realistic view of how much people care about other tools that suffer the same way
  95. # [16:34] <Julian> Philip: actually, the XSLT thingy was raised by somebody else.
  96. # [16:34] <Julian> Philip: I only noted that Java's builtin HTML serializer has exactly the same problem.
  97. # [16:34] <Philip> Julian: and biasing the language design towards a very small number of data points (of XSLT and JAXP) doesn't seem like a particularly good design methodology
  98. # [16:35] <Philip> Julian: Ah, okay, so it's only two people in the entire world :-)
  99. # [16:39] <Julian> Philip: well, two individuals raised the issue. But we weren't the only ones that agreed it's worth solving.
  100. # [16:42] <Philip> Julian: I'd agree it's probably worth solving, since designing for a very small number of data points is better than entirely ignoring the data points - I just think I'm happier when there's more data points, because then the chosen solutions are likely to be more widely applicable
  101. # [16:43] <Julian> Philip: agreed
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  103. # [16:48] <Philip> Julian: So that's why I'd like it if someone had expanded my very incomplete list of serialisers, and provided more data points and hopefully verified that my readings of the code and my conclusions were not entirely rubbish :-)
  104. # [16:49] <Philip> even if they aren't serialisers which people personally care about
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  106. # [16:54] <Julian> Philip: I think the ony thing I disagree with is that it's useful to optimize the solution for serializers people do not care about
  107. # [16:55] <Philip> Julian: By "people", do you mean "people who communicate with the WG" or "people who exist in the world"?
  108. # [16:55] <Julian> Philip: people who care bout HTML5, be it in the WG or not
  109. # [16:58] <Philip> Julian: That sounds like it includes people who don't communicate with the WG, and so it's hard for us to tell whether they care or not, and I guess I'm erring on the side of assuming that if a tool exists then someone cares about it
  110. # [16:59] <Philip> (...and assuming they will eventually care about HTML5 too)
  111. # [17:08] <Julian> Philip: the tool may be abandoned, or it's trivial to upgrade and deploy a new version (which is not the case for XSLT 1.0/JXAP)
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  114. # [18:48] <DanC> issue-60: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/472274/why-are-xhtml-5-and-xhtml-2-separate-standards
  115. # [18:48] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-60.
  116. # [18:48] <trackbot> ISSUE-60 Reuse of 1998 XHTML namespace is potentially misleading/wrong notes added
  117. # [18:48] <pimpbot> Title: Why are (X)HTML 5 and XHTML 2 separate standards? - Stack Overflow (at stackoverflow.com)
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  136. # [20:48] <karl> http://js.io/
  137. # [20:48] <pimpbot> Title: js.io - JavaScript Network Library (at js.io)
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The end :)