/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-01-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jan 28 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  12. # [01:30] <ChrisWilson> pings back at Hixie
  13. # [01:31] <Hixie> hey chris
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  16. # [03:08] <Lachy> since when did the moratorium on discussing spec-splitting issues extend beyond public-html?
  17. # [03:09] <Lachy> I don't see how rubys lifting it for www-archive makes any difference since the moratorium didn't apply there in the first place
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  19. # [03:29] <Hixie> is brewer@w3.org a mailing list or a person?
  20. # [03:30] <Hixie> ah, judy
  21. # [03:30] <Hixie> never mind
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  30. # [06:57] <MikeSmith> issue: Should "HTML5: The Markup Language" draft contain parsing rules and DOM APIs?
  31. # [06:57] * trackbot noticed an ISSUE. Trying to create it.
  32. # [06:57] <trackbot> Created ISSUE-67 - Should \"HTML5: The Markup Language\" draft contain parsing rules and DOM APIs? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/67/edit .
  33. # [07:03] <MikeSmith> action: Michael(tm) to add a note about issue-67 to the Status section of "HTML 5: The Markup Language"
  34. # [07:03] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  35. # [07:03] <trackbot> Created ACTION-100 - Add a note about issue-67 to the Status section of \"HTML 5: The Markup Language\" [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2009-02-04].
  36. # [07:03] <MikeSmith> action-100?
  37. # [07:03] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-100
  38. # [07:03] <trackbot> ACTION-100 -- Michael(tm) Smith to add a note about issue-67 to the Status section of \"HTML 5: The Markup Language\" -- due 2009-02-04 -- OPEN
  39. # [07:03] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/100
  40. # [07:03] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-100 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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  47. # [08:00] <pimpbot> planet: IE8 Security Part VII: ClickJacking Defenses <http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/01/27/ie8-security-part-vii-clickjacking-defenses.aspx>
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  49. # [08:51] <anne> which sections need to be marked as controversial by Larry?
  50. # [08:52] <anne> and is that blocking the publication issue? the agenda is not that clear...
  51. # [08:54] <hsivonen> is it implied that there'd be one person (Larry) objecting to a new WD of HTML 5 unless his controversial list is marked?
  52. # [08:54] <Hixie> didn't we already mark the sections as controversial at the last face-to-face?
  53. # [08:54] <Hixie> i seem to recall spending about 12 hours on it
  54. # [08:54] <hsivonen> we sure did
  55. # [08:54] <Hixie> though maybe my memory is skewed by the painful experience that that was
  56. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> I don't recall Larry saying that he objected to publishing
  57. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> so not sure what Sam added that in the agenda
  58. # [08:55] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: hence "implied"
  59. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> ah
  60. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I don't think that was the most painful part of the f2f, at least
  61. # [08:56] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i meant the tpac as a whole
  62. # [08:56] <Hixie> i can't wait to see how long it takes for the htmlwg to decide to publish a last call draft, given how long it is taking for us to decide to publish a WD
  63. # [09:00] <anne> I thought we'd just do it, but apparently the rules have changed again
  64. # [09:00] <anne> maybe because some people do not want to publish that other draft
  65. # [09:01] <Hixie> i'm fine with publishing the other draft, though mike's recent comments confused the heck out of me and now i no longer know who the audience is supposed to be any more
  66. # [09:02] <hsivonen> I'd like to see anyone who object to publishing a new WD of "HTML 5" to cite specific changes to "HTML 5" that would remove the objection.
  67. # [09:02] <MikeSmith> I'm frankly tired of discussing the audience non-issue.
  68. # [09:02] <hsivonen> s/who object/who objects/
  69. # [09:02] <Hixie> it's not a non-issue
  70. # [09:02] <Hixie> how are we supposed to know how to review the draft if we don't know what it's for?
  71. # [09:02] <Hixie> seriously. what is the point of this draft.
  72. # [09:03] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I think it and the question I asked yesterday are highly relevant to understanding what the spec is for
  73. # [09:03] <Hixie> it doesn't help authors. it doesn't help implementors. it doesn't help validators. it doesn't help language lawyers.
  74. # [09:03] <Hixie> who does it help?
  75. # [09:04] <Hixie> i don't know how to review the draft if i don't know who it is supposed to be for
  76. # [09:04] <Hixie> and since it's defining the same thing as the draft i'm editing, it seems like my review would be pretty important
  77. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> as I've pointed out several times, we all had no trouble reviewing the HTML5 draft for the 4 years or whatever it existed before you added the Audience section
  78. # [09:06] <Hixie> that's because everyone knew who it was for. browser vendors, tool vendors, language lawyer authors, and conformance checker authors.
  79. # [09:06] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: when I reviewed "HTML 5" during that time, I thought I knew what it was for
  80. # [09:07] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: incidentally, my conjecture of who it was for matches precisely what Hixie just said about it target audience
  81. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> it's for people who need a definition of what a conformant document is
  82. # [09:09] <Hixie> then it's woefully incomplete and not at all what larry wants.
  83. # [09:09] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: of those set of people, at least the needs of validator developers are better addressed by "HTML 5"
  84. # [09:09] <Hixie> which is fine by me
  85. # [09:09] <Hixie> but doesn't match what you said just now.
  86. # [09:09] <Hixie> (in e-mail.)
  87. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> well, I'd really love to spend a whole bunch more time discussing this right now, but I can't because I need to go do a presentation for a big portal site here about HTML5 and W3C stuff
  88. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> I'll be back on later, we can pick it up then if you care to
  89. # [09:11] <Hixie> okie dokie
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  109. # [14:15] <MikeSmith> takkaria: about the test-case stuff, I think once you get more time freed up (end of next month or March, I think you said), setting up something at github or wherever would be good
  110. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> I don't know what other git hosting services there are, but github seems to be pretty good
  111. # [14:16] * takkaria nods
  112. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> there is some chance that we might have a git setup at W3C this year
  113. # [14:17] <MikeSmith> if so, it could be migrated from github (or wherever) if/when we do have a W3C git
  114. # [14:19] <Philip> If the W3C does set something up, is it known/expected that it would be Git rather than Mercurial or anything else?
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  116. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> Philip: I have some reason to suspect it would be git, but I would not totally rule out Mercurial
  117. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> but I think it would be one of those two
  118. # [14:37] <Philip> MikeSmith: Okay - I'm just guessing it'd be easier to migrate a repository if both sides are using the same VCS, but it doesn't seem a critical issue
  119. # [14:38] <MikeSmith> yeah
  120. # [14:38] <takkaria> there are mostly-lossless convertors available between them, I believe
  121. # [14:38] <Philip> "Mostly"? :-)
  122. # [14:38] <Philip> I think that's usually called "lossy"
  123. # [14:38] <takkaria> well, I'm guessing you lose revision ids, but other than that, lossless
  124. # [14:39] <Philip> Ah
  125. # [14:39] <Philip> It's still a bit of a pain in terms of re-training all the users
  126. # [14:39] <Philip> but I can't imagine it's that difficult to learn the equivalents of 'cvs up' / 'cvs ci'
  127. # [14:42] <anne> I need the equivalent of cvs diff and cvs commit
  128. # [14:42] <MikeSmith> I prefer git because all the git man pages are generated using software that I wrote
  129. # [14:43] <takkaria> hah
  130. # [14:43] <Philip> I never knew you were that famous
  131. # [14:43] <anne> apparently RDFa is extracted from pages using software I contributed to
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  133. # [14:44] * Philip searches for details about git man page generation
  134. # [14:44] <Philip> "I built the git binaries, but this box is too slow to rebuild the man pages."
  135. # [14:44] <MikeSmith> heh
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  137. # [14:45] <Philip> "these steps don’t seem to install the updated git man pages, as they’re still on 1.5.5. I’m working on figuring that one out."
  138. # [14:45] <MikeSmith> the sources for the git docs are in the kind of markdown-type thing called asciidoc
  139. # [14:46] <MikeSmith> which I had nothing to do with
  140. # [14:46] <Philip> "I compile git and its man pages myself and I just noticed that the man pages (invoked with "git help log", for example) have a typesetting problem. There are ".ft" commands here and there"
  141. # [14:47] <MikeSmith> hmm, I think I since have fixed that bug
  142. # [14:47] <MikeSmith> and we released a release with the fix
  143. # [14:47] <MikeSmith> the source of that problem as actually asciidoc
  144. # [14:47] <Philip> (That was https://kerneltrap.org/mailarchive/git/2008/10/29/3856814 )
  145. # [14:48] <pimpbot> Title: A typesetting problem with git man pages | KernelTrap (at kerneltrap.org)
  146. # [14:48] <MikeSmith> the asciidoc tool converts its source input to DocBook, and uses the man-page stylesheet from the DocBook XSL stylesheets to generate man pages from that
  147. # [14:49] * Philip is not trying to be negative on purpose, that's just how the Google search came out ;-)
  148. # [14:49] * MikeSmith gets all kinds of SSL warning messages when I try to go to that URL
  149. # [14:50] <Philip> You should switch to a browser that doesn't give you so many scary warning messages
  150. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> heh
  151. # [14:50] <Philip> Opera is quite happy to not complain about certificates issued by "localhost, Apache HTTP Server"
  152. # [14:51] <Philip> issued for a domain that isn't the one I'm accessing
  153. # [14:51] <Philip> and with an expiry date more than a year ago
  154. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> dunno why tf that site needs to be using SSL at all anyway
  155. # [14:51] <Lachy> Philip, do you mean for even for a server that isn't localhost?
  156. # [14:52] <Lachy> Philip, please file a bug
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  158. # [14:53] <MikeSmith> the funnest part of writing a tool to generate man pages is dealing with the groff community
  159. # [14:53] <MikeSmith> and trying to get help
  160. # [14:53] <MikeSmith> because first off, they all hate man pages and the man macros
  161. # [14:53] <Philip> Lachy: It doesn't fail to notice the problem; it just doesn't warn me, and merely puts a grey question-mark box in a place I'll never notice, saying "Site not secure blah blah gobbledygook" if I click on it
  162. # [14:53] <Lachy> oh
  163. # [14:54] <Lachy> that's odd. I thought Opera gave more annoying warnings for invalid certificates
  164. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> it should make a sound, like one of those obnoxious car horns.. ah-oooo-gah
  165. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I think it does by default
  166. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> maybe Philip got the option turned off
  167. # [14:55] <Philip> I might have clicked on "approve" if it popped up a dialog box, but I don't remember at all
  168. # [14:56] <Philip> (I don't have any non-default configuration for security stuff, as far as I'm aware)
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  170. # [15:20] * marcos wonders if Window will be ripped out of HTML5 into its own spec again?
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  172. # [15:22] <MikeSmith> marcos: I think there was some general agreement that would be good if there were an editor willing to do it.
  173. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> marcos: maybe you can volunteer
  174. # [15:23] <MikeSmith> you done with your PhD work, right?
  175. # [15:23] <marcos> um,...
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  180. # [15:24] <anne> MikeSmith, I'd think Opera has quite enough people volunteered to work on WebApps specs :)
  181. # [15:24] <marcos> Yeah, plus I still gotta finish that widget stuff.
  182. # [15:25] <MikeSmith> anne: amen
  183. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> wish we could get more organizations to provide editors
  184. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> it's not for lack of trying
  185. # [15:28] <anne> just saying as marcos is joining us, which you may or may not know :)
  186. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> yeah, I know, but hadn't had a chance to congratulate marcos yet
  187. # [15:29] <marcos> well, now is your chance :)
  188. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> marcos: congratulations :)
  189. # [15:29] <marcos> woot! thanks! :D
  190. # [15:29] <wilhelm> Welcome. (c:
  191. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> you are going to like being with the crew in Oslo, and I think you're going to fit in really well there
  192. # [15:30] <marcos> oh, really?
  193. # [15:30] <anne> yeah, Oslo people are all crazy :p
  194. # [15:30] <wilhelm> Lies.
  195. # [15:31] <marcos> hehe, yeah. I figured as much... I must be crazy to leave a country that is always in summer for one in perpetual winter.
  196. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> marcos: yeah, seriously (about the fitting in part and liking the Oslo folk)
  197. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> they are crazy in a good way
  198. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> with a couple exceptions of people who are just plain crazy
  199. # [15:31] <marcos> hehe
  200. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> and you will have many chances to enjoy some of the finest drinking establishments in Oslo, such as the Stargate
  201. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> and you can insist that you need to visit the Opera Japan office, and thus have a chance to come to Tokyo
  202. # [15:34] <marcos> that's also true
  203. # [15:34] <marcos> Will start making up reasons to go there... as I've never been to Japan.
  204. # [15:35] <karl> http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23html5ml
  205. # [15:35] <pimpbot> Title: #html5ml - Twitter Search (at search.twitter.com)
  206. # [15:43] <jgraham> marcos: Can you make up some reasons for me to?
  207. # [15:44] <karl> japan++
  208. # [15:45] <karl> building team spirit
  209. # [15:45] <karl> understanding local markets requirements
  210. # [15:45] <karl> etc etc :)
  211. # [15:45] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah, you gotta come here too
  212. # [15:47] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  213. # [15:48] <Lachy> I added Scope and Audience sections to the author guide http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/#scope
  214. # [15:48] <pimpbot> Title: The Web Developer’s Guide to HTML 5 (at dev.w3.org)
  215. # [15:48] <MikeSmith> one great thing about visiting Opera Japan is that you can have a chance to meet actual customers -- companies that pay money for a browser they can install on mobile phones, Nintendo DS, Wii, Windows Mobile devices, other stuff
  216. # [15:49] <Lachy> (the heading levels are a bit messed up, but that's either a bug in anolis or, more likely, I've messed up my source document during the major restructing attempt)
  217. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> speaking of anolis, haven't see gsnedders around so much lately
  218. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> or maybe I've just not been around as much when he is
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  220. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> I did see gsnedders mention somewhere that he was on the IE chat
  221. # [15:53] <Lachy> oh, is that on now?
  222. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> no, last week I meant
  223. # [15:53] <Lachy> oh
  224. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> I think he said the claim that IE team said something about SVG being "likely" for IE9 was not true
  225. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> that nobody actually said that
  226. # [15:54] <Lachy> ok
  227. # [15:54] <Lachy> where did that claim get published?
  228. # [15:54] <MikeSmith> ars technica or somewhere
  229. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> Sam linked to it a recent blog posting
  230. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> http://blog.wired.com/business/2009/01/more-details-ab.html
  231. # [15:56] <pimpbot> Title: More Details About IE8, Web Standards and Performance | Epicenter from Wired.com (at blog.wired.com)
  232. # [16:03] <anne> Japan!
  233. # [16:04] * anne hopes to go there soonish
  234. # [16:10] <karl> anne: you have never been?
  235. # [16:11] <anne> I have not
  236. # [16:12] <jgraham> Japan is awesome. It is also weird and confusing as hell
  237. # [16:12] <anne> great, I like that
  238. # [16:13] <karl> jgraham: I don't think it is really confusing. There is a bit of filter effect here. Many foreigners who come to Japan *want* to see something strange and indeed they see it as a strange country.
  239. # [16:13] <karl> As many countries, there are things which are similar and different.
  240. # [16:13] <jgraham> karl: The Tokyo metro system is confusing. Or I am really dumb. Or both.
  241. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> I agree that it's both awesome and that it's still sometimes weird and confusing as hell for me even after being here 7 years
  242. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> metro system is just really complex
  243. # [16:14] <myakura> yeah
  244. # [16:14] <karl> :) metro system is like english railways system :)
  245. # [16:14] * Philip 's experience of Japan is limited to watching Lost in Translation
  246. # [16:14] <karl> but I really prefer to take the subway in tokyo than in Paris, less less less confusing for me
  247. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> myakura: I was showing your blog to some developers at goo earlier tonight
  248. # [16:15] <jgraham> karl: We don't have the thing where there are multiple stations with different operators but the same name and where you can buy tickets that will allow you on one operator's trains but not on the others
  249. # [16:15] <karl> jgraham: it has improved
  250. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> I recommended to them that they subscribe to your feed, if they want to keep up with what's going on around W3C/Web-standards stuff
  251. # [16:15] <karl> funny I talked about that just yesterday
  252. # [16:15] <karl> but in French
  253. # [16:16] <karl> http://www.la-grange.net/2009/01/27/interfaces
  254. # [16:16] <pimpbot> Title: Interfaces et voyage - Carnets de La Grange (at www.la-grange.net)
  255. # [16:17] <myakura> MikeSmith: goo? goo.ne.jp?
  256. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> jgraham: we have IC-card-based things here now that work across all the trains and subways
  257. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> myakura: yeah. I did a presentation there earlier tonight
  258. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> they have a great crew there
  259. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> young and smart and really interested in learning about new standards stuff
  260. # [16:18] <myakura> MikeSmith: interesting. was that about html5 and webapps?
  261. # [16:18] <jgraham> karl, MikeSmith: For the tourist it is confusing enough that I wasted about 30 minutes and got the wrong ticket trying to get to Tsjuki (sp?) in November
  262. # [16:18] <karl> Tsukiji
  263. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> yeah, and about Selectors API and CSS3 Selectors and other stuff that's getting supported in browsers
  264. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> myakura: ↑
  265. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I still screw up with train stuff now and then
  266. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> but I've gotten much better in that I have a app/service on my mobile that tells me which trains to take and what times
  267. # [16:20] <karl> hehe
  268. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> all I have to do is tell it my destination
  269. # [16:20] * karl remembers one of the first dicussions I had with mike ;) about mobile phones
  270. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> mobiles all have GPS here, so device and apps on they can already know where you are
  271. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> and you just need to tell them where you want to go
  272. # [16:22] <karl> MikeSmith: plus there is a little green guy with a helmet which follows you everywhere with a timer to optimize your work. That is Japan.
  273. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> heh
  274. # [16:22] <karl> ;)
  275. # [16:24] <MikeSmith> anyway, I got to pack up on catch the last Ginza-sen train
  276. # [16:25] <MikeSmith> 00:33
  277. # [16:25] <karl> itterashai
  278. # [16:25] <MikeSmith> cheers
  279. # [16:25] <myakura> ~
  280. # [16:33] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  281. # [16:38] * Quits: myakura (myakura@221.191.119.20) (Quit: Leaving...)
  282. # [16:48] <jgraham> takkaria: FWIW my input on DVCS is that I know Mercurial a little and therefore have a preference for using it. But I guess Git is not likely to be so hard to learn
  283. # [16:50] <jgraham> (and bitbucket.org seems to be the GitHub equivalent if that is an issue)
  284. # [16:53] * matt is now known as matt2mit
  285. # [16:53] * Philip wonders why IEBlog has no comments on the recent posts, and also why it pops up the browser's Username/Password dialog box every so often
  286. # [16:56] * Philip has used Mercurial a bit too (mainly because Mozilla uses it), but doesn't think that counts for much since he hasn't done anything non-trivial with it and has no way to compare it against Git
  287. # [17:04] <Philip> takkaria: You missed an opportunity to CC public-html-testsuite and increase its lifetime post count by 20% :-(
  288. # [17:04] <jgraham> Yeah, I haven't used Git either so I don't have a strong preference
  289. # [17:04] <jgraham> Mrely a preference
  290. # [17:06] <gsnedders> Mercurial > git.
  291. # [17:06] <Philip> My preference is only expressible as a partial order
  292. # [17:07] <Philip> (A trivial one, in particular)
  293. # [17:07] <gsnedders> hg > git > svn > cvs
  294. # [17:08] <jgraham> gsnedders: What about Visual SourceSafe?!
  295. # [17:08] <gsnedders> jgraham: Never used
  296. # [17:09] <Philip> But you must have heard the horror stories
  297. # [17:09] <anne> I wonder when we get the first bikeshed discussion about whether <section> implies </p> or some other such trivial detail
  298. # [17:11] <jgraham> gsnedders: I once (like >10 years ago) worked with some people who were using Visual SourceSafe. IIRC they often had to ask each other to unlock the files in order to edit them
  299. # [17:12] * Joins: aroben (aroben@71.58.73.153)
  300. # [17:13] <Philip> I think SourceSafe worked by storing the repository on a shared network drive and giving everyone write permissions, so a single bad client could destroy the entire repository
  301. # [17:13] <Philip> (and that's if you remember to run the repair process every night so the natural corruption didn't destroy the repository first)
  302. # [17:13] <Philip> s/remember/remembered/
  303. # [17:14] <jgraham> Quite an ironic name for a product, really
  304. # [17:15] <takkaria> Philip: I was not aware public-html-testsuite existed
  305. # [17:15] * Philip knows someone who recently started a job and has to use something that's basically RCS plus a load of shell scripts that don't work half the time
  306. # [17:16] <takkaria> most people seem to say they prefer hg over git, I have no real preference
  307. # [17:16] <Philip> People who use Git seem to prefer it over Mercurial
  308. # [17:16] <takkaria> very droll :)
  309. # [17:17] <Philip> but I've not heard particularly strong preferences from the people who use either of them
  310. # [17:17] <Philip> because they're basically the same
  311. # [17:17] <gsnedders> I use both, and I prefer Mercurial
  312. # [17:18] <takkaria> Linus prefers git
  313. # [17:19] <Philip> takkaria: That's a surprise
  314. # [17:19] <jgraham> Has he tried mercurial?
  315. # [17:19] <Philip> http://utsl.gen.nz/talks/git-svn/intro.html#hg-rulz seems quite complimentary about Mercurial
  316. # [17:19] <pimpbot> Title: An introduction to git-svn for Subversion/SVK users and deserters (at utsl.gen.nz)
  317. # [17:20] <Philip> (in an article otherwise about Git advocacy)
  318. # [17:21] <Philip> (or at least about anti-SVN advocacy)
  319. # [17:21] <takkaria> anyway, if the w3c are likely to support git internally, then that would be a good enough reason to go for git
  320. # [17:21] <takkaria> other than that, there does seem to be little to choose
  321. # [17:24] * Joins: darobin (robinb@81.66.15.230)
  322. # [17:24] <jgraham> takkaria: I guess it depends howw strong the chance is that W3C will pick git over hg; if it is close to 50:50 then maybe we should just make a choice and hope that tips the balance. If it is like 90:10 then I guess we should go with the 90
  323. # [17:25] <takkaria> hmm, html5lib has a php port now
  324. # [17:25] <takkaria> nice
  325. # [17:25] <Philip> Is it a port, rather than an independent implementation that's sharing the repository?
  326. # [17:26] <takkaria> looks like the latter
  327. # [17:27] <jgraham> takkaria: AFAIK only the tokenizer works
  328. # [17:27] <takkaria> ah
  329. # [17:27] * takkaria should really update hubbub to latest spec soon
  330. # [17:27] <karl> hmm larry is saying the survey is biaised but so far most of the answer I have seen are in favor of markup spec. So the first draft effect seems to not be an issue
  331. # [17:28] <Philip> He's also complaining about the question being biased, and seemingly not minding that asking a few people's Twitter followers is going to introduce more huge bias
  332. # [17:29] <karl> Philip: in which way the latter?
  333. # [17:29] <Philip> (and also his reworded question seems to be indicating that people aren't already able to review the document exactly the same as if it was a normative published draft)
  334. # [17:29] <jgraham> karl: It's not clear that it matters
  335. # [17:30] <jgraham> (although I guess it will bias it toward yes)
  336. # [17:30] <karl> jgraham: you mean compared to the bias of the no of techies?
  337. # [17:31] <Philip> karl: It's a very selective sample, and unlikely to be representative of any larger group of people, so there's no value in counting the number of yes/no votes
  338. # [17:31] <Philip> (though there is value in reading specific feedback from those people)
  339. # [17:32] <karl> that is funny. because people start to wonder about the "representativeness" (ouch) when there was a question of doing things differently
  340. # [17:32] <karl> what we are interested here
  341. # [17:32] <Philip> (in which case bias is irrelevant, and asking a question that is likely to get useful substantive feedback is much more relevant)
  342. # [17:32] <karl> is what indeed webmasters, webdesigners community think
  343. # [17:32] <karl> :)
  344. # [17:32] <karl> baaaah
  345. # [17:33] <karl> anyway… yet another rain
  346. # [17:33] * jgraham wonders if karl has turned into a sheep
  347. # [17:34] <karl> jgraham: that would make my life easier ;)
  348. # [17:34] <Philip> ((Twitter probably isn't the ideal medium for substantive feedback, but at least it's better than nothing))
  349. # [17:36] <Philip> "The IETF even has a rather amusing way of solving this via humming." - that would clearly violate our charter, since humming is only likely to work in teleconferences and therefore will exclude mere mailing list participants, unless we can attach audio files of humming
  350. # [17:36] <jgraham> Philip: It is unclear to me that's true
  351. # [17:37] <Philip> jgraham: It's unclear that it's better than nothing?
  352. # [17:37] <karl> geez people like meta discussions :) no no in fact they are craving for it
  353. # [17:40] <jgraham> Philip: Yes. I'm not really sure what the value of Twitter feedback is, but it is not clear that the value must be positive
  354. # [17:43] <karl> http://blogs.adobe.com/jd/2009/01/a_video_tale.html
  355. # [17:43] <pimpbot> Title: jd/adobe: A Video Tale (at blogs.adobe.com)
  356. # [17:44] <Philip> jgraham: Regardless of the feedback, the other part (feedforward?) of making people aware of the Markup Language document seems useful since it makes them more likely to read it and send feedback through a higher-bandwidth medium
  357. # [17:44] * karl has to find a way to have less tabs opened. right now 124 tabs
  358. # [17:45] <jgraham> karl: Do you have a cunning way to count or just by hand?
  359. # [17:46] <Philip> "No one's disenfranchised" except, say, anyone on a platform that Flash doesn't support
  360. # [17:47] <Philip> and anyone who has to indirectly pay their platform vendor for having added Flash support
  361. # [17:48] <Lachy> karl, how do you possible manage 124 tabs?
  362. # [17:49] <Lachy> (I know someone who's had 3 or 4 times that amount, but still.)
  363. # [17:49] <Philip> (And also me, because I can't get the Flash plugin to work in Opera without crashing every few days)
  364. # [17:49] <Lachy> I can't manage with more than a dozen tabs open, and I consider more than 6 too many
  365. # [17:50] <Philip> I have 76 open
  366. # [17:50] <karl> Lachy: that's my issue. I tried in different browsers. On my macbook, the best for low cpu consumptions is opera, the best for navigating the tabs at the chrome level is camino.
  367. # [17:51] * jgraham has about 90 tabs spead over 3 browsers but most of those could be closed
  368. # [17:51] * matt2mit is now known as matt
  369. # [17:51] <Philip> I just remember where the different groups of tabs are, and ctrl-tab between them
  370. # [17:51] <karl> The alt+tab for navigating in opera is not useful because you can't jump to the tab you want right away
  371. # [17:52] <karl> I wish a system ala exposé where I would have a flat view of thumbnails of my tabs. I think firefox was working on that.
  372. # [17:53] <Philip> It only takes about two seconds to scroll to anywhere in my tab list in Opera
  373. # [17:53] <karl> Though I would have thought that Safari was in better position to do that
  374. # [17:53] <Philip> and right-click + scroll-wheel is a bit faster, though inconvenient on a laptop
  375. # [17:54] <Lachy> There's an exposé plugin for Safari on Mac that gives the same OS X Exposé interface, but limited to the tabs in Safari.
  376. # [17:54] <Lachy> I can't remember what the plugin is called though or where to get it
  377. # [17:54] <Philip> TabExposé?
  378. # [17:55] <karl> Another possibility for me would be a system where I can keep a copy of the pages in an app at a time t. So I can go back to it later. The fact that I have so many tabs opened is because I want to talk or write about it later on. Either on a blog or mailing list, etc. sometimes it takes month before I write about it
  379. # [17:55] <Lachy> yeah
  380. # [17:55] <karl> http://www.cocoamug.com/tabexpose/
  381. # [17:55] <pimpbot> Title: Cocoamug Software / TabExposé (at www.cocoamug.com)
  382. # [17:55] <Lachy> that might be it. I've never installed it myself, but I saw a friend of mine using it
  383. # [17:56] <Philip> karl: How about using bookmarks? :-)
  384. # [17:56] <karl> I don't remember if safari now saves your tab session when the browser is crashing
  385. # [17:56] <karl> Philip: bookmarks doesn't do for two reasons
  386. # [17:56] <karl> 1. it is not under my eyes.
  387. # [17:57] <karl> 2. It is not saving the page as it is. (when I access to it again there will be a reload and that matters sometimes)
  388. # [17:57] <Philip> Would Opera's Sessions work better? They save the state of all tabs, though I don't know if that's just URLs or includes form content too
  389. # [17:57] <karl> but I'm using bookmarking systems too but for other stuff :) http://blogmarks.net/ is my main tool for it
  390. # [17:58] <pimpbot> Title: Blogmarks.net : Public marks (at blogmarks.net)
  391. # [18:00] <karl> Philip: yes I'm using Opera for the last two months. Good things for CPU (specifically with a lot of tabs), awful navigation for tabs, awful UI on the mac. But cool feature also like dragonfly, or the block content feature or the custom preferences adjustement by site. A bit dumb for setting/removing cookies. It doesn't really work.
  392. # [18:02] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  393. # [18:02] * Philip hates how browsers all default to ordering tabs by recently-usedness when switching, rather than being consistent and matching the tab bar
  394. # [18:03] <karl> :)
  395. # [18:03] * karl wishes that in fact it would be possible to have your tabs sessions be outside of the browser. So that you can reuse them from any browser
  396. # [18:04] <karl> you quit Opera, open Camino… and hop you get the same session
  397. # [18:05] <Philip> Why would you ever want to do that? :-)
  398. # [18:10] <karl> Philip: the world is full of surprise
  399. # [18:10] <karl> ok. I have to do something more important now… going to lunch.
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The end :)