/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-01-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jan 30 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  7. # [00:37] <karl> http://blog.mozilla.com/seth/2009/01/28/mozilla-dtd-files-caveat-emptor/
  8. # [00:37] <pimpbot> Title: seths blog Blog Archive Mozilla DTD files, caveat emptor (at blog.mozilla.com)
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  14. # [00:54] <Lachy> karl, I don't understand how quoting the description of a Working Draft No Longer In Development from the process document is relevant to the intention of Working Draft still in active development that claims normativity, to reach a recommendation?
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  18. # [01:14] <mjs> Lachy: my understanding of the process is that generally a Working Draft signals intent to proceed on the REC track, but may fall off the REC track for various reasons
  19. # [01:15] <mjs> except that of course, a WD may be published with clear intent that it is aimed to be a W3C Note from the get-go
  20. # [01:18] <Lachy> mjs, that's my understanding too
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  30. # [05:06] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6502] New: should the canvas element be omitted from h:tml draft?" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0052.html> ** "[Bug 6501] New: should obsolete elements be omitted from h:tml draft?" ( message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0051.html>
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  35. # [06:06] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6503] New: to what degree should formalisms be used (if at all) in the h:tml draft?" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0053.html>
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  37. # [06:38] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6505] New: should h:tml draft describe for authors how relative URLs are resolved?" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0055.html> ** "[Bug 6504] New: description of what target attribute represents should not use term "browsing context"" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0054.html>
  38. # [06:42] <pimpbot> planet: This Week in HTML 5 - Episode 19 <http://blog.whatwg.org/this-week-in-html-5-episode-19> ** This Week in HTML 5 - Episode 18 <http://blog.whatwg.org/this-week-in-html-5-episode-18>
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  42. # [07:08] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6506] New: should h:tml draft include descriptions of element-specific APIs?" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0056.html>
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  44. # [07:29] * heycam just realised "h:tml" isn't a typo
  45. # [07:30] <gavin> heh, took me a while too
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  47. # [07:44] <billyjackass> gavin, heycam : I welcome alternative suggestions how to refer to that draft
  48. # [07:44] <billyjackass> and no, "shit sandwich" is not what I had in mind
  49. # [07:44] <billyjackass> it's too long
  50. # [07:45] <billyjackass> and "shit" is too general
  51. # [07:45] <billyjackass> it would describe too many other of our standards
  52. # [07:45] <billyjackass> accurately
  53. # [07:45] <heycam> billyjackass, that's what you get for volunteering around here!
  54. # [07:46] <heycam> man, i can't believe it got to 45 degC here today :/
  55. # [07:46] <billyjackass> geez. wish you could figure out a way to spread some of that heat around
  56. # [07:46] * heycam imagines lachy would be shivering in sub-zero temperatures
  57. # [07:46] <heycam> please, take some!
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  60. # [07:50] <MikeSmith> If I lived in Oslo, I think I would try to do some kind of work-share thing, where I got a snowman or other winter creature to take on my responsibilities for the winter, while I hibernate, and then I would take on their responsibilities during the other 3 months year (non-winter) in Oslo
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  66. # [08:38] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6501] should obsolete elements be omitted from h:tml draft?" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0057.html>
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  68. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> .t CET
  69. # [09:10] <phenny> Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:08:00 CET
  70. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> Lachy: can you please ping me when you are around?
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  72. # [09:30] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: So winter is nine months?
  73. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> roughly
  74. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> at that latitude at least
  75. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> or another way to consider it is that it's one long month
  76. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> one long, grey, depressing month
  77. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> that goes on for months
  78. # [09:33] * gsnedders realizes he is a fair bit further south
  79. # [09:35] <Lachy> MikeSmith, ping
  80. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I just wanted to apologize for the cranky replies I sent to your mail about the Audience section
  81. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> replies I sent earlier today
  82. # [09:39] <Lachy> I'm just catching up on my mail now
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  84. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> Lachy: the reply that I sent to Maciej in that thread is one I wrote after taking a break and getting some sunshine
  85. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> (though not literally since it's been cold and raining all day here)
  86. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> the ones I sent to you before that, I sent after getting up on the wrong side of the bed (as they say)
  87. # [09:56] <Lachy> ok, finished reading...
  88. # [09:58] <Lachy> MikeSmith, re http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jan/0619.html - because the first statement is predicated on the assumption that the draft itself will be normative, and that it will contain conformance requirements
  89. # [09:58] <pimpbot> Title: Re: Who is the Intended Audience of the Markup Spec Proposal? from Michael(tm) Smith on 2009-01-30 (public-html@w3.org from January 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  90. # [09:59] <Lachy> what's wrong with describing it as an adjuct to HTML 5? It means "Added or connected in a [...] auxiliary capacity", which seems like a fairly accurate description to me
  91. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I see what you're saying, but I can't say I agree that the first statement is predicated on the draft being normative.
  92. # [10:01] <Lachy> It says "intended to conform to the requirements [this document] describes". That suggests it contains conformance criteria, which indicates normativity
  93. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> that's what I changed it to "describes"
  94. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> and I guess I don't like "adjunct" because of what it seems to me to connote
  95. # [10:02] <Lachy> what does it connote to you?
  96. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> like "adjunct professor" -- the guy who's around to teach for one semester because the regular professor got sick or died
  97. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> or "adjunct professor" who's the first guy to get layed off when they need to do staffing cuts
  98. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> anyway, what it really gets down to is that this document is meant to stand alone as a document within the confines of the scope it sets for itself
  99. # [10:05] <Lachy> My purpose in describing like that was to find a way to make it clear that it's not intended, and doesn't need, to contain everything defined in HTML5, like DOM APIs or parsing requirements or whatever else. Rather it provides auxillary material to be used in conjunction with the spec
  100. # [10:06] <Lachy> I don't really see how it could be used in a standalone manner, since it doesn't cover all the needs of any one particular audience
  101. # [10:07] <Lachy> and, the way I see it, its utility for producers is limited due to the innappropriate nature of RelaxNG schemas and regex's for descrribing content models in a human readable way
  102. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> true, I do agree that in reality many or most authors don't restrict themselves to using a single reference source when they are trying to figure out how to write HTML documents
  103. # [10:10] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6502] should the canvas element be omitted from h:tml draft?" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0058.html>
  104. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> and this draft is certainly not meant to be all things to all people
  105. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> but if a qualifying statement of some kind (like what you proposed) were to be added to audience statement, it would seem to me to be more useful to say it's intended to be used in conjunction with all the other ways you have at your means for learning about how to use HTML correctly
  106. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> and not just the HTML5 draft itself
  107. # [10:15] <Lachy> that's a fair point
  108. # [10:18] <Lachy> I'll be ok with any statement that indicates its utility for assisting with checking markup conformance (since that's what schemas are useful for) and that it's intended to be used in conjunction with the spec and authoring guides
  109. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> Lachy: OK, I will try to draft up something. Right now I'm writing a reply to Hixie about the same thing.
  110. # [10:20] <Lachy> cool.
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  114. # [10:41] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6507] New: Paragraphs section doesn't list all transparent elements" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0059.html>
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  117. # [11:06] <Lachy> MikeSmith, your latest revision with the itemised list is better
  118. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> cool
  119. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> so, getting somewhere closer at least
  120. # [11:07] <Lachy> although the 2nd and 3rd points indicate some overlap with the HTML 5 Reference
  121. # [11:07] <Lachy> I guess that's unavoidable
  122. # [11:08] <MikeSmith> I plan to make some more tweaks and get them checked in, but I'm probably not going to be able to get around to it until next week
  123. # [11:09] <Lachy> my only remaining concern about it is describing it as authoritative, which, due to the limitations of schemas, it may not be
  124. # [11:09] <Lachy> but I'm willing to concede that the limitations could be adequately addressed in prose alongside the schemas
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  127. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> OK
  128. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> I will get some refinements made, but probably can't before middle of next week because right now I'm working on preparing presentations for Web Directions North
  129. # [11:14] <Lachy> are you presenting on HTML5?
  130. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> I'm doing presenting module on markup as part of the Ed Directions North thing prior to the event
  131. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> Chris Mills is driving that
  132. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> and another presentation at the event itself
  133. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> title: "Web standards and the browser landscape: The year in review, the year ahead"
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  145. # [14:11] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6508] New: XHTML doctype without system identifier" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0060.html>
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  212. # [23:03] <Lachy> hey, if hypothetically, Mike's draft does proceed as a normative document, how would it get past CR without being able to demonstrate 2 interoperable implementations? How can you have interoperable implementations when the spec contains no implemenetation conformance criteria?
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  218. # [23:15] <Hixie> Lachy: i don't know (though that hasn't stopped any number of w3c specs before)
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  222. # [23:29] <Dashiva> Lachy: Make a program that does nothing and state it satisfies all (zero) criteria?
  223. # [23:33] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241) (Ping timeout)
  224. # [23:33] <Philip> You could write two HTML documents
  225. # [23:33] * Quits: gavin (gavin@63.245.208.169) (Client exited)
  226. # [23:36] <Lachy> <!DOCTYPE html><title>Implementation 1</title><p>Hello World!
  227. # [23:36] <Lachy> OK, there's one :-)
  228. # [23:37] <Philip> Oh, it seems you'd actually need two documents for every feature
  229. # [23:43] * Joins: gavin (gavin@63.245.208.169)
  230. # [23:44] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  231. # Session Close: Sat Jan 31 00:00:01 2009

The end :)