/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-02-03 / end

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  59. # [05:50] <pimpbot> planet: This Week in HTML 5 - Episode 20 <http://blog.whatwg.org/this-week-in-html-5-episode-20>
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  63. # [06:50] <pimpbot> planet: Birth of a Security Feature: ClickJacking Defense <http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/02/02/birth-of-a-security-feature-clickjacking-defense.aspx>
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  66. # [07:34] <hsivonen> karl: not by default, but you can get a callback by appending &callback=foo to the URL
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  68. # [07:38] <karl> hsivonen: oh I see :) so the foo is more the choice of the developer who wants to use the output
  69. # [07:39] <hsivonen> karl: you can use any ECMAScript-compatible identifier in place of foo
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  71. # [07:39] <hsivonen> (yes, it actually validates whether it is an ECMA-compliant ident)
  72. # [07:40] <karl> hsivonen: what I meant… is that the "foo" is not imposed by me but by the user
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  74. # [07:40] <hsivonen> karl: foo is chosen by whoever puts together the URL
  75. # [07:41] <karl> cool
  76. # [07:41] <karl> thanks
  77. # [07:41] <karl> I was asking because there was something for this in the bugzilla, I might find time to fix it
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  112. # [12:56] <anne> http://www.w3.org/News/2009#item11 no pressure...
  113. # [12:56] <pimpbot> Title: Archive of W3C News in 2009 (at www.w3.org)
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  119. # [15:51] <karl> http://www.8164.org/the-big-table-issue/
  120. # [15:51] <pimpbot> Title: The Big Table Problem | 8164 (at www.8164.org)
  121. # [15:51] <karl> Big table and layout
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  125. # [16:24] <rubys1> jgraham: ping?
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  127. # [16:25] <jgraham> rubys: Hej
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  129. # [16:25] <rubys> notice should not be a problem for prior contributors to html5lib, but may be a headache. Let me explain.
  130. # [16:26] <rubys> for starters, html5lib is licensed in a way that allows other to take that work and incorporate it into a bigger project under a more restrictive license (say, GPL or proprietary). With me so far?
  131. # [16:26] <jgraham> OK
  132. # [16:27] <jgraham> (er that OK was to the first line but I am OK with the second one too)
  133. # [16:28] <rubys> the same thing is true in a smaller scale. I contributed some code to html5lib under MIT. Nothing in my contribution precludes you from having a notice which says "these parts are licensed under MIT, those parts under cc-by". Doing so does not require you to get my permission.
  134. # [16:28] <jgraham> rubys: OK
  135. # [16:29] <rubys> cool
  136. # [16:30] <jgraham> rubys: But the problem I had in mind is redistribution of html5lib
  137. # [16:30] <Lachy> rubys, personally, I have a bad feeling about using a CC licence; even if it is the most permissive CC-by licence
  138. # [16:31] <jgraham> According to what you have said it is OK to have a file that is mixed MIT/CC
  139. # [16:31] <rubys> jgraham: I didn't mean to suggest doing so on the sub-file level.
  140. # [16:31] <Lachy> I personally prefer MIT, especially for the authroing guide (if not public domain), but modified-BSD seems like it would be ok too
  141. # [16:31] <rubys> Lachy: it would be helpful if we can convert the "bad feelings" into tangible arguments.
  142. # [16:32] <jgraham> rubys: In that case it is a problem if I want to take a chunk of text about how the tokenizer should work and mix it up with my implementation of the tokenizer (say)
  143. # [16:32] <Lachy> rubys, the big problem I see is the GPL incompatibility.
  144. # [16:33] <rubys> I've emailed a friend at the FSF.
  145. # [16:33] <Lachy> I think GPL compatibility should be an absolute requirement for any licence we choose
  146. # [16:33] <Philip> Google Code has a very limited selection of licences allowed for projects it hosts, and "partly MIT and partly CC-by" is not one of them
  147. # [16:34] <jgraham> Philip: In principle one could host outside google code
  148. # [16:34] <Philip> It's a pain for anyone who wants to use html5lib as part of their project if they have the burden of understanding and following the extra requirements imposed by CC-by
  149. # [16:35] <Philip> (so it's a problem regardless of whether the licences are compatible (i.e. you can mix the code and distribute it all legally))
  150. # [16:35] * karl sent an email for collecting use cases and then we can do a grid with what each license authorizes or forbids to do
  151. # [16:35] <rubys> My sense is that the W3C is going to demand attribution; I want to quantify the pain that such a demand costs.
  152. # [16:36] <karl> I have the feeling that we are creating issues where there is none.
  153. # [16:36] <Philip> The practical pain is zero because people can copy-and-paste from the WHATWG version of the spec instead
  154. # [16:36] <jgraham> Philip: I agree mixed licenses are a pain. And, if they don't work on the sub-file level really a blocker
  155. # [16:36] <jgraham> (maybe that applies to Apache 2 as well)
  156. # [16:37] <karl> For 15 years, many open sources projects have implemented W3C technologies without any issues at all. :) There might be issue but that would be more reasonnable to start with concrete cases than saying we need this license
  157. # [16:37] <Philip> jgraham: I'm not sure why the sub-file levels matters - what matters is whether the project as a whole can claim to be usable under the MIT licence or something more complex
  158. # [16:38] <anne> karl, for a long time HTML4 was considered good enough too :p
  159. # [16:38] <karl> anne: ;) still good for me too ;) as a Web author
  160. # [16:38] <Lachy> rubys, even MIT says in the conditions that "The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software.", and the copyright statement would state the W3C
  161. # [16:39] <Lachy> isn't that enough for attribution?
  162. # [16:39] <anne> karl, sure, w3schools wfm too
  163. # [16:39] <jgraham> Philip: I think with CC-By the whole project can't claim to be MIT. I think rubys's argument is that you can work around that by mixing different licenses together. My concern is that you need to mix different licenses in the same file
  164. # [16:40] <rubys> Lachy: I certainly intend to include MIT on the set of licenses that this group is OK with.
  165. # [16:40] <Lachy> rubys, BSD too?
  166. # [16:41] <rubys> I have no issue with BSD without the advertising clause, or the Apache License. Both would present similar challenges to html5lib.
  167. # [16:42] <rubys> The Apache License would potentially pose additional problems to LGPLv2 but not LGPLv3.
  168. # [16:42] <rubys> I say potentially, because there is disagreement over this. My feeling is that when there is disagreement, it is better to avoid the issue.
  169. # [16:43] <rubys> Meanwhile, I'd like to hear a clear answer to the question Karl posed on the mailing list.
  170. # [16:43] <Lachy> rubys, which question?
  171. # [16:44] <Lachy> oh, just got the mail
  172. # [16:44] <rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Feb/0062.html
  173. # [16:44] <pimpbot> Title: Re: Spec license from Karl Dubost on 2009-02-03 (public-html@w3.org from February 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  174. # [16:47] * jgraham has no idea what legally constitutes a derivative work
  175. # [16:48] <Philip> Another possible use case: Years in the future, some group of people are fed up with the stagnation of HTML5, and they decide to form a (non-W3C, non-WHATWG) working group to develop something informally called HTML6, and want to base their work on the existing HTML5 spec
  176. # [16:49] <Philip> Even less hypothetical: Someone wants to write http://html4all.org/wiki/index.php/HTML_Draft and copy some parts from the HTML5 spec
  177. # [16:49] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Draft - html4all (at html4all.org)
  178. # [16:49] <Lachy> Philip, I agree. Forking the spec should be fine as long as they don't misrepresent the forked copy as being endorsed by the W3C
  179. # [16:50] <Lachy> but I think that would be a trademark issue anyway
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  190. # [18:27] <Philip> "The proposal is to remove an accessibility-related attribute, without offering a replacement for its use, with no explanation except they looked at the Google index and figured they could axe it." - is that a reasonable example of a strawman argument? :-)
  191. # [18:35] <hober> indeed
  192. # [18:37] <jgraham> I am unsure what the good faith interpretation of that is
  193. # [18:39] <Dashiva> Not having seen or understood the other arguments?
  194. # [18:42] <jgraham> Dashiva: I guess. I mistakenly belived that Larry had taken on an Action to look at table summaries, which would seem to preclude at least having "not seen", but it seems I was mistaken
  195. # [18:43] <jgraham> er, too many mistakens there
  196. # [18:44] <jgraham> (the Action is on Chris Wilson to make a poll on @summary)
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  198. # [18:45] <Dashiva> Idealism (justified or not) would probably also apply, belief that it will become hugely popular before HTML6
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The end :)