/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-02-10 / end

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  64. # [16:52] <MikeSmith> http://jsonml.org/
  65. # [16:52] <pimpbot> Title: JsonML (JSON Markup Language) (at jsonml.org)
  66. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> @whois jsonml.org
  67. # [16:54] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: jsonml.org <registered at domaindiscover.com> is client transfer prohibited, registered 09-Nov-2006 22:38:04 UTC, updated 10-Nov-2008 01:24:41 UTC, and expires 09-Nov-2009 22:38:04 UTC.
  68. # [16:55] <jgraham> Because what the world needs is more ways to encode documents in formats that are optimised for data and vice-versa
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  76. # [17:36] <hsivonen> wow. RFC 8 is hard to read
  77. # [17:37] * MikeSmith looks up RFC 8
  78. # [17:37] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8.pdf
  79. # [17:37] <MikeSmith> thanks
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  81. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> holy god
  82. # [17:40] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: one would think that somebody would have transcribed it by now
  83. # [17:41] <Philip> Fortunately Google lets you view the PDF file as HTML
  84. # [17:41] <hsivonen> indeed. I guess the IETF is very serious about maintaining original formatting
  85. # [17:41] <Philip> "Networ-k l'iorki.ng Group Request foT. Comnerrt: 8"
  86. # [17:44] <Philip> hsivonen: Why would you guess that, rather than guessing that nobody has cared enough to bother transcribing it?
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  88. # [17:45] <hsivonen> Philip: because they also care about ASCII formatting to printable pages with form feeds and hard line breaks
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  90. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> to me, the whole IETF culture in general seems radically different from W3C
  91. # [17:53] <MikeSmith> seems like IETF folks and browser people and others involved at W3C are coming from very different set of experiences and assumptions
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  93. # [17:56] <hsivonen> the views on the text/* content types is certainly very different
  94. # [17:56] <hsivonen> s/is/are/
  95. # [18:05] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Heh. Been reading www-archive then?
  96. # [18:06] <hsivonen> gsnedders: yes
  97. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: any clues as to why the HTML5 spec defines content models for <ul> and <ol> as zero or more <li>s (instead of one or more)?
  98. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> HTML4 defined it as one or more
  99. # [18:13] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: It gets annoying when programmatically outputting data, or having an empty list to work on via script, etc.
  100. # [18:14] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: my understanding is that this way doesn't require authoring tools to insert bogus placeholders
  101. # [18:14] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: also what gsnedders said
  102. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> gsnedders, hsivonen : I see -- thanks
  103. # [18:16] * Philip encountered that problem himself, wanting to write <ul>[% FOR i IN items %]<li>...[% END %]</ul> but then discovering it's invalid HTML4 in some edge cases
  104. # [18:18] <Philip> MikeSmith: Any clues as to why the HTML4 (or earlier) spec defined it as one or more?
  105. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> Philip: ask DanC
  106. # [18:20] <Philip> DanC: Any clues as to why the HTML4 (or earlier) spec defined it as one or more? :-)
  107. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> I'd suspect because at the time they were less aware of use cases of people authoring docs whose contents were meant to be dynamically updated when they were served
  108. # [18:22] <jgraham> That use case is still often missed by people
  109. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> yeah
  110. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> fwiw, I've found it's also one of the problems with restrictions on id/xml:id values in source
  111. # [18:28] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: How so?
  112. # [18:28] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: People naïvely generating them?
  113. # [18:28] <gsnedders> It isn't hard to generate conformant @id values
  114. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> no, sometimes you want to put placeholder content into an xml:id attribute value and then have some post-processing done on it to resolve it into a real id value
  115. # [18:30] <DanC> defined what as one or more?
  116. # [18:30] * DanC catches up...
  117. # [18:30] <gsnedders> DanC: li
  118. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> DanC: <li> in <ul> and <ol>
  119. # [18:30] <DanC> oh...
  120. # [18:30] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Can't you use data-* for that? :P
  121. # [18:30] <DanC> well, in the tech doc SGML culture, an empty list was a bug to be fixed
  122. # [18:31] <DanC> so you have to do: if items <ul> for i in items </ul> end if
  123. # [18:33] <DanC> IETF culture radically different? gee... it doesn't seem that way to me, MikeSmith . there's more variation between groups within W3C and within IETF than between the orgs
  124. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> DanC: I will agree with you about variation between W3C groups
  125. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> I guess I should have qualified it by saying the W3C groups I'm involved with
  126. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> those that focus on client-side technologies, browser technologies
  127. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> as opposed to.. whatever else
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  135. # [19:12] <MikeSmith> http://blog.mozilla.com/standards/2009/02/10/on-letting-specifications-bloom/
  136. # [19:12] <pimpbot> Title: Mozilla Standards Blog » Blog Archive » On Letting Specifications Bloom (at blog.mozilla.com)
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  139. # [19:25] <pimpbot> planet: On Letting Specifications Bloom… <http://blog.mozilla.com/standards/2009/02/10/on-letting-specifications-bloom/> ** Moz Camp Delhi <http://blog.mozilla.com/seth/2009/02/10/moz-camp-delhi/> ** Heading to India! <http://blog.mozilla.com/blog/2009/02/09/heading-to-india/> ** Implementing a new feature in Gecko that may have an impact on accessibility? Ping the accessibility team and tell them! <http://www.marcozehe.de/2009/02
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  163. # [22:10] * Philip finds a web site he wrote in 1998, saying "This web site is best viewed in IE4, 16bit+ colour, 800x600"
  164. # [22:10] <Philip> Technology hasn't moved on an awful lot since then :-(
  165. # [22:11] <Philip> (Also, the "Get Microsoft Internet Explorer" button now links to a 404 on Microsoft's site - it's a bit odd that they'd break compatibility with old sites in that way)
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  169. # [22:43] <Dashiva> Philip: Many sites are still optimized for 800x600, alas
  170. # [22:56] <Philip> Dashiva: Those sites are probably aiming for lowest-common-denominator requirements to maximise their market, whereas I was just designing to look good on my own high-spec machine
  171. # [22:56] <Philip> but a decade later I've barely got twice as many pixels on my screen
  172. # [22:57] <Dashiva> 1680x1050 is the new minimum
  173. # [22:57] <Philip> and I've probably only got 18-bit colour
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  176. # [23:07] <Lachy> ChrisWilson, yt?
  177. # [23:11] <Lachy> ChrisWilson, I wanted to find out if and when Microsoft will be contributing those Selectors API tests that Travis mentioned http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JanMar/0347.html
  178. # [23:11] <pimpbot> Title: RE: Call for Consensus - Selectors API to Candidate Rec from Travis Leithead on 2009-02-06 (public-webapps@w3.org from January to March 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
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The end :)