/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-02-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Feb 16 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  14. # [02:58] <MikeSmith> heycam: here now
  15. # [06:00] <gavin> 1/win 20
  16. # [06:51] <MikeSmith> Yudai: you around?
  17. # [06:52] <MikeSmith> I'm trying to remember if Yakura-san translated the HTML Design Principles doc
  18. # [07:35] <Shunsuke> MikeSmith: this one? http://standards.mitsue.co.jp/resources/w3c/TR/2007/WD-html-design-principles-20071126/
  19. # [07:35] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 設計原則 (at standards.mitsue.co.jp)
  20. # [07:38] <MikeSmith> Shunsuke: yeah, thanks
  21. # [07:38] <MikeSmith> that's the one
  22. # [07:38] <MikeSmith> he doesn't seem to have a linke to that set up
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  24. # [07:46] <lucky711x> why does my local copy of my site look like this http://img106.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-19201/loc61/66237_hmm_122_61lo.JPG but after I upload it to my webserver at http://shellsite.okinawapc.com it looks correct??
  25. # [07:46] <pimpbot> Title: Lucky711x's Den (at shellsite.okinawapc.com)
  26. # [08:04] <MikeSmith> Shunsuke: you at SFC today?
  27. # [08:12] <lucky711x> now I can't even get my header to show up properly at http://shellsite.okinawapc.com can anyone have a look at it for me?
  28. # [08:12] <pimpbot> Title: Lucky711x's Den (at shellsite.okinawapc.com)
  29. # [08:45] <Shunsuke> MikeSmith: No, on the train.
  30. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> Shunsuke: ah, OK
  31. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> SFC is like a ghost town these weeks
  32. # [08:49] <Shunsuke> lectures are already finished so almost students have no reasons to go to Univ...
  33. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  50. # [10:02] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: on the HTML history wiki page, you say the HTML WG chartered in 2000-06 started working on XHTML 2
  51. # [10:02] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: its charter http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2000/Charter does not mention this
  52. # [10:02] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Working Group Charter (at www.w3.org)
  53. # [10:02] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: do you have another reference?
  54. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I think I did when I wrote that, but I didn't cite it
  55. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> I'll look now
  56. # [10:03] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: btw, I added a couple of XForms data points
  57. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, I saw those
  58. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> good additions
  59. # [10:04] <hsivonen> the earliest public XHTML2 WD I find is http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-xhtml2-20020805/
  60. # [10:04] <pimpbot> Title: XHTML 2.0 (at www.w3.org)
  61. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> that stuff about Extended Forms Requirements and obsoleting the DOM
  62. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I am sure there was work on it way earlier than that
  63. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> I'll go poking
  64. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> was looking at the history page today myself because I need to do a short talk at a open-source conference here on Friday
  65. # [10:06] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yes, just as soon as we make another release of html5lib :)
  66. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you did your presentation already, or doing it this week?
  67. # [10:06] <annevk> pointer to that history page again?
  68. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/history/
  69. # [10:06] <annevk> ta
  70. # [10:06] <pimpbot> Title: HTML/history - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
  71. # [10:07] <jgraham> Oh crap people are trying to use the html5lib BeautifulSoup api
  72. # [10:07] <annevk> whoa, HTML4 was created in five months
  73. # [10:07] <annevk> no wonder
  74. # [10:08] <Philip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Feb/0119.html is quite interesting
  75. # [10:08] <pimpbot> Title: Re: HTML and XML from Bijan Parsia on 2009-02-15 (www-tag@w3.org from February 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  76. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: found http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2001Apr/0011.html
  77. # [10:23] <pimpbot> Title: Re: XHTML 2.0 -- A Chance to Improve Document Structure? from Dan Morris on 2001-03-28 (www-html@w3.org from April 2001) (at lists.w3.org)
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  79. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> there's other stuff on the old member list
  80. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> w3c-html-wg@w3.org
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  82. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> if you search that around Feb 2001
  83. # [10:26] * MikeSmith tries to find something public
  84. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://www.w3.org/People/mimasa/test/schemas/DTD/dev/
  85. # [10:27] <pimpbot> Title: Index of /People/mimasa/test/schemas/DTD/dev (at www.w3.org)
  86. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> first draft DTD -- appears to all be world-readable
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  88. # [10:39] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
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  95. # [11:12] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6585] New: Rendering: " ( message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Feb/0023.html>
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  100. # [12:12] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6586] New: Zero margin quirk not quite right" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Feb/0024.html>
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  105. # [14:59] <pimpbot> planet: FOSDEM 2009: Zbigniew Braniecki and John Slater <http://blogs.mozilla-europe.org/?post/2009/02/16/FOSDEM-2009%3AZbigniew-Braniecki-and-John-Slater>
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  127. # [18:11] <gsnedders> jgraham: :)
  128. # [18:11] <gsnedders> jgraham: That's so not what I meant
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  131. # [18:14] <jgraham> gsnedders: OK, well you *can* make it compatible with already released html5lib but given that about 5 people in the world use anolis and they all hang out here it doesn't seem worthwhile
  132. # [18:15] <gsnedders> jgraham: I know Hixie has been linking other people to it who don't hang around here
  133. # [18:16] <jgraham> gsnedders: In any case, it is probably easier for people to pull svn html5lib than use the older, more broken version
  134. # [18:16] <jgraham> But feel free to use the old/less nice api if you want
  135. # [18:16] <gsnedders> jgraham: The problem is setuptools is limited to what is in PyPI
  136. # [18:17] <jgraham> gsnedders: That is html5lib 0.10 because I was a bad maintainer and dropped the ball on 0.11
  137. # [18:17] <jgraham> Which you _really_ don't ant to use
  138. # [18:17] <gsnedders> jgraham: Be a good maintainer :P
  139. # [18:18] <jgraham> gsnedders: Sure. Once we release 0.12 (I should say, I tried to update PyPI but got some weird errors and then forgot about it)
  140. # [18:18] <gsnedders> jgraham: When is 0.12 coming out? After svg/mathml/py3 merge, or?
  141. # [18:18] <jgraham> gsnedders: You are on html5lib-discuss, right?
  142. # [18:18] <gsnedders> jgraham: right
  143. # [18:19] <jgraham> Patches to make html5lib 0.12 ship sooner are accepted :)
  144. # [18:19] * gsnedders has physics project due in tomorrow, and computing project due next week, so…
  145. # [18:19] <gsnedders> no.
  146. # [18:19] <gsnedders> :)
  147. # [18:19] * Joins: DanC (connolly@128.30.52.30)
  148. # [18:19] * DanC fails to remain in holiday mode
  149. # [18:19] <gsnedders> (I'm sure commits would be welcomed to :P)
  150. # [18:20] <gsnedders> Bad DanC.
  151. # [18:20] * DanC hunts for introduction of data-* into html 5 draft...
  152. # [18:20] <Philip> jgraham: I hate HTML; can I submit patches that ensure it ships later?
  153. # [18:21] <jgraham> Philip: You can commit so you can probably do what you like. No promises about the subsequent use of svn revert though :)
  154. # [18:22] <Philip> DanC: It was around last April
  155. # [18:23] * Philip looks for the revision
  156. # [18:23] <DanC> I got r2826 from `svn co http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/` ; am I on the right planet?
  157. # [18:23] <DanC> I see r2634 at http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/commit-watchers-whatwg.org/2009/thread.html
  158. # [18:23] <pimpbot> Title: The Commit-Watchers 2009 Archive by thread (at lists.whatwg.org)
  159. # [18:23] <Philip> DanC: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Apr/0205.html
  160. # [18:23] <pimpbot> Title: Supporting MathML and SVG in text/html, and related topics from Ian Hickson on 2008-04-10 (public-html@w3.org from April 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  161. # [18:24] <DanC> that looks pretty much what I'm after; thanks, Philip
  162. # [18:24] <Philip> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/commit-watchers-whatwg.org/2008/000592.html
  163. # [18:24] <pimpbot> Title: [html5] r1399 - / (at lists.whatwg.org)
  164. # [18:25] <annevk> DanC, the WHATWG list archives are *not* in reverse chronological order
  165. # [18:25] <DanC> !?
  166. # [18:26] <DanC> ah
  167. # [18:26] <annevk> e.g. if you scroll down on that page you'll see r2826
  168. # [18:26] * DanC un-twists his head
  169. # [18:27] <DanC> $ grep -n attr-data- source
  170. # [18:27] <DanC> 7520: title="attr-data-*"><code>data-</code></dfn>", has at least one
  171. # [18:27] <DanC> 7566: title="attr-data-*">data-*</code> attributes on an element. On
  172. # [18:27] <DanC> 7638: title="attr-data-*">data-*</code> attributes:</p>
  173. # [18:27] * DanC tries svn annotate...
  174. # [18:27] <jgraham> gsnedders: Also, depending on setuptools is slightly evil
  175. # [18:27] <Philip> DanC: Did you see http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/commit-watchers-whatwg.org/2008/000592.html ? :-)
  176. # [18:27] <pimpbot> Title: [html5] r1399 - / (at lists.whatwg.org)
  177. # [18:27] <Philip> svn annotate is probably going to get very confused by formatting changes, rearrangements, etc
  178. # [18:27] * jgraham had to install anolis once ith no network access and no setuptools and had to edit it to not depend on setuptools
  179. # [18:28] <DanC> yes, thanks for the r1399 / 0592 link
  180. # [18:29] * DanC wonders whose cpu is doing the `svn annotate` he's now waiting for
  181. # [18:29] * DanC wonders if hgsvn would be faster
  182. # [18:29] <Philip> It's Hixie's
  183. # [18:30] <DanC> not dreamhost's?
  184. # [18:30] * Philip has a slightly-out-of-date local clone of the repository, but that's a bit slow at annotate too
  185. # [18:30] <Philip> Well, it's Hixie's virtual server on Dreamhost
  186. # [18:30] <Philip> (I think)
  187. # [18:31] * Joins: hober (ted@206.212.254.2)
  188. # [18:33] <annevk> yup
  189. # [18:33] * DanC gives up on svn annotate
  190. # [18:35] <Philip> DanC: Because it's too slow? I could run it on my copy (with reasonably fast CPU) in a few minutes, if that'd help
  191. # [18:35] <DanC> I doubt I'm going to get a better answer than what I have
  192. # [18:36] <Philip> Okay
  193. # [18:36] * Philip wonders what the question was
  194. # [18:37] <DanC> question was: when did hixie add data-* and why?
  195. # [18:38] <Philip> Ah, okay - I think the original commit and mailing list post are the only significant sources of information I can remember
  196. # [18:38] <DanC> I was going to update the description of http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/41 ; I cited the stuff you gave me in a note, because the description is slanted and I don't want to spend time just now un-slanting it
  197. # [18:38] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-41 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  198. # [18:38] <Philip> (Any later commits were just tweaking details)
  199. # [18:40] <pimpbot> planet: rel=canonical <http://annevankesteren.nl/2009/02/rel-canonical>
  200. # [18:41] <Philip> annevk: s/at all/et al./ maybe?
  201. # [18:45] <gsnedders> jgraham: setuptools sucks then
  202. # [18:46] <jgraham> gsnedders: The problem isn't that it sucks, it was just that I didn't happen to have it and it isn't really necessary
  203. # [18:46] <jgraham> (it may suck but that is a different question)
  204. # [18:47] <DanC> software installation is a hard problem; has anybody gotten it right?
  205. # [18:47] <annevk> Philip, oops, ta
  206. # [18:47] * gsnedders has a git-svn copy of the spec, DanC
  207. # [18:49] <DanC> gsnedders, try git blame and see what it says about `grep -n attr-data- source ` ?
  208. # [18:49] <jgraham> gsnedders: You should really do try:import setuptools except: import distutils or whatever
  209. # [18:53] <gsnedders> DanC: You want the line number of it in the git blame, or what?
  210. # [18:53] <DanC> the rev #
  211. # [18:53] <DanC> does git have serioal rev #s along with hashes, like hg?
  212. # [18:53] <DanC> serial, even
  213. # [18:53] <gsnedders> I thought -n would just get the line number
  214. # [18:53] <gsnedders> DanC: Not inline, but they can be got
  215. # [18:53] <DanC> yes, grep tells me the line number
  216. # [18:54] <gsnedders> Ah, you just want the blame for that line
  217. # [18:54] * gsnedders headdesks
  218. # [18:54] * gsnedders is being dumb :)
  219. # [18:54] * Philip tries running 'time svn blame' on his copy, just for fun
  220. # [18:54] <Philip> So far it's taken 4 minutes of CPU time
  221. # [18:55] <Philip> on a Core 2 at 1.7GHz
  222. # [18:55] <gsnedders> DanC: r1836 — but that's just an edit of it
  223. # [18:55] <Philip> and it's not nearly finished
  224. # [18:55] * gsnedders looks further back
  225. # [19:01] <gsnedders> DanC: I'm hitting issues with what I'm looking for being changed too much, and me not having used git in a while :)
  226. # [19:02] <Philip> Hmm, 11.5 minutes
  227. # [19:03] <Philip> (and still going)
  228. # [19:04] <gsnedders> DanC: r1399
  229. # [19:05] <Philip> Aha, finished
  230. # [19:05] <Philip> real 14m46.893s
  231. # [19:06] <DanC> ok, 1399 is the same answer Philip got via commit-watchers
  232. # [19:07] * gsnedders now at least can remember how to use git, for that mostly pointless exercise
  233. # [19:08] <Philip> Wow, the blame output is uploading at a blistering 11.3KB/s
  234. # [19:10] <Philip> http://philip.html5.org/misc/blame-r2826.txt
  235. # [19:14] * Quits: maddiin (mc@87.185.240.229) (Quit: maddiin)
  236. # [19:34] <DanC> my data-* research was background for:
  237. # [19:34] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/QA/2009/02/palm_webos_approach_to_html_ex.html
  238. # [19:34] <pimpbot> Title: Palm webOS approach to HTML extensibility: x-mojo-* - W3C Q Weblog (at www.w3.org)
  239. # [19:34] <DanC> chuckle; it's the W3C Q&A Weblog; I wonder where the &A got mangled.
  240. # [19:37] <annevk> x-mojo-element, funny name
  241. # [19:39] <DanC> can you tell if their ToggleButton fits within the ARIA button role?
  242. # [19:40] <annevk> what is a togglebutton? a checkbox?
  243. # [19:40] * annevk follows the "details" link
  244. # [19:41] <DanC> ...which should go to http://developer.palm.com/webos_book/book7.html ; fixing...
  245. # [19:41] <pimpbot> Title: Palm.com : Palm Developer Network - Palm webOS from O'Reilly Media (P. 7) (at developer.palm.com)
  246. # [19:41] <pimpbot> planet: Palm webOS approach to HTML extensibility: x-mojo-* <http://www.w3.org/QA/2009/02/palm_webos_approach_to_html_ex.html>
  247. # [19:44] <annevk> seems pretty normal to extend HTML in such ways for private use though
  248. # [19:44] <DanC> private use leaks
  249. # [19:45] <DanC> and it would be nice to be able to use HTML 5 checking tools on webOS pages, etc.
  250. # [19:45] <annevk> true, but I'm not sure I've seen an example where it actually became meaningful
  251. # [19:46] <Julian> annevk, private use other than for the use cases covered by @data-*?
  252. # [19:46] <DanC> but this doesn't seem like some exotic private use; it just looks like they haven't heard of ARIA
  253. # [19:46] <annevk> DanC, ARIA just maps to AT clients, I'm not sure what x-mojo-element does, but I've the feeling it's not that
  254. # [19:48] <annevk> Julian, if you build an application SDK on top of HTML for a particular OS you'll need all kinds of special APIs though for just the HTML markup you could probably get away with data-*, yeah
  255. # [19:48] <DanC> seems like one stone would have killed both birds just fine
  256. # [19:50] <Julian> Anne, "These attributes are not intended for use by software that is independent of the site that uses the attributes."
  257. # [19:51] <Julian> ... "User agents must not derive any implementation behavior from these attributes or values."
  258. # [19:52] <Julian> So this use case seems to be explicitly ruled out.
  259. # [19:54] <hober> It's too bad they didn't just use @class
  260. # [19:54] <DanC> I'd like to know if they considered @class, yeah
  261. # [19:54] <Julian> I guess they wanted to avoid class name conflicts
  262. # [19:54] * Julian ducks
  263. # [19:58] * Philip uses context to determine that Julian is not referring to aquatic animals despite the name conflict :-)
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  267. # [20:33] <takkaria> news on the testsuite front:
  268. # [20:34] <takkaria> I'm afraid I'm not going to have time to do anything with it for a while, so someone else is best taking iton
  269. # [20:34] * annevk found a use case for using ; in JavaScript
  270. # [20:34] <takkaria> I'm running for student elections until the second week of March and so my time will be spent campaigning
  271. # [20:35] <annevk> it's extremely useful when copying a multiline sequence into the URL bar when using data: to debug because Opera strips line feeds there
  272. # [20:35] <Philip> takkaria: Hint: Electoral fraud is much easier than campaigning
  273. # [20:35] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  274. # [20:36] <Dashiva> Unless you manage to get your opponent to withdraw before the election
  275. # [20:44] <takkaria> Philip :)
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  279. # [21:05] <annevk> it's nice to realize that versioning of HTML doesn't work for XML
  280. # [21:05] <annevk> has that argument never really come up before or I have I just forgotten about it?
  281. # [21:52] <Dashiva> Isn't the xhtml2 namespace reusing plan kinda implicit versioning?
  282. # [21:55] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  283. # [22:04] <gsnedders> But XML solves all versioning problems!
  284. # [22:04] <gsnedders> XML solves everything!
  285. # [22:04] <gsnedders> Even the halting problem!
  286. # [22:06] <Lachy> it appears to me that Larry is trying to create a problem for versioning to solve by arguing that XHTML5 and XHTML2 can share the same namespace, and then trying to find some versioning method to solve it.
  287. # [22:07] <Lachy> But doesn't it seem obvious to everyone that either ignoring XHTML2 completely, or just making it use an alternative namespace, eliminates the need for any versioning mechanism?
  288. # [22:08] <annevk> apparently not to everyone
  289. # [22:08] <Hixie> xhtml2 vs xhtml5 is a red herring
  290. # [22:08] <Hixie> the real problem is xhtml2 vs xhtml1 when you are in a pure-DOM environment
  291. # [22:08] <annevk> it's also cunning how he equates a feature such as summary with fundamentals of XML processing
  292. # [22:08] <Hixie> e.g. createElement('input')
  293. # [22:09] <Dashiva> You just use createElementNS, and ... oh wait
  294. # [22:09] <annevk> RB has been arguing that from the other side, saying that the real problem is xhtml5 vs xhtml1, might not help us move forward
  295. # [22:09] <Lachy> Hixie, since XHTML1 and XHTML5 are compatible, it doesn't really matter which one you're comparing with XHTML2
  296. # [22:09] * Joins: maddiin (mc@87.185.240.229)
  297. # [22:10] <Hixie> annevk: right but his argument is a bogus one from semantics, whereas the 2 vs 1 DOM argument is one where you don't implement both.
  298. # [22:10] <Lachy> annevk, sure, but the extent of RB's argument is that the definition of <small> as "small print" is not compatible with "small font size"
  299. # [22:10] <Hixie> Lachy: it matters because if it's 2 vs 5 then it's them vs us, whereas the reality is that it's them vs the past.
  300. # [22:10] <Lachy> ok
  301. # [22:11] <Hixie> the problem would exist whether or not xhtml5 existed
  302. # [22:11] <gsnedders> Damned XHTML5!
  303. # [22:14] <Lachy> Hixie, that reminds me, I think you should clarify the definition of <small> so that it's clear that it's just "small print", and that copyright notices, legal restrictions, etc. are just examples
  304. # [22:14] <Lachy> at the moment, it seems some people are conflating the examples with its definition
  305. # [22:17] <Hixie> how about just "small print (legalese), and other side comments"
  306. # [22:23] <Lachy> I would just say something like "small print or other side comments. For example, legalese such as disclaimers, caveats, or legal restrictions, copyrights or other disadvantages"
  307. # [22:24] <annevk> doesn't have to be a disadvantage <small>This work is in the public domain.</small>
  308. # [22:25] <Lachy> Hixie, I don't understand what is meant by disadvantages in that context either.
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  311. # [22:43] <Dashiva> If xhtml2 were to rebrand, I wonder what the name would end up as
  312. # [22:44] <gsnedders> Dashiva: Something that isn't XHTML2?
  313. # [22:45] <Dashiva> That's a pretty big space
  314. # [22:45] * Joins: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@68.50.195.181)
  315. # [22:45] * Philip saw today that XML was nearly called "MAGMA"
  316. # [22:45] <Dashiva> I'm pretty sure we could eliminate e.g. any name including pancakes
  317. # [22:45] <gsnedders> Well, you didn't say you wanted a specific answer.
  318. # [22:45] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6585] Rendering: " (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Feb/0025.html>
  319. # [22:47] <Lachy> Philip, do you have a link to where you read that?
  320. # [22:48] <Philip> Lachy: http://www.xml.com/axml/notes/TheCorrectTitle.html
  321. # [22:48] <Lachy> if XHTML2 changes their name, they should also change their root element from <html> to something else
  322. # [22:48] <pimpbot> Title: TheCorrectTitle (at www.xml.com)
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  332. # Session Close: Tue Feb 17 00:00:00 2009

The end :)