/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-02-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 18 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  39. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> http://gyu.que.jp/jscloth/
  40. # [08:23] <pimpbot> Title: js cloth (at gyu.que.jp)
  41. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> http://d.hatena.ne.jp/gyuque/
  42. # [08:27] <pimpbot> Title: 最速チュパカブラ研究会 (at d.hatena.ne.jp)
  43. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> ャ腥銀
  44. # [08:30] <MikeSmith> "Fastest Chupacabra Research Club"
  45. # [08:30] <MikeSmith> scroll down on that page for English
  46. # [08:37] <Zeros> that's pretty impressive
  47. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> dude is a force
  48. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> as are most of the guys involved with this:
  49. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> http://shibuyajs.org/
  50. # [08:41] <pimpbot> Title: Shibuya.js (at shibuyajs.org)
  51. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> Shunsuke: have you met gyuque?
  52. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> trying remember if I met the guy
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  60. # [09:44] <pimpbot> planet: Bespin and Canvas <http://benzilla.galbraiths.org/2009/02/17/bespin-and-canvas/>
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  90. # [15:57] * DanC checks the time in Japan.. 11:55pm...
  91. # [15:57] <DanC> hi MikeS ; are you in office mode?
  92. # [16:02] <MikeS> DanC: I'm on a call now
  93. # [16:02] <MikeS> but I'll be around after
  94. # [16:06] * Philip hopes the canvas accessibility thing won't get too ugly...
  95. # [16:08] <MikeS> Philip: did you see that gyuque links I posted earlier?
  96. # [16:08] <MikeS> would like to know what you think
  97. # [16:09] * Philip doesn't think releasing version 0.1 of an online text editor that doesn't support screenreaders (along with not supporting IE or Opera) is equivalent to racism
  98. # [16:09] <Philip> MikeS: I saw the links but I didn't dereference them
  99. # [16:11] <MikeS> OK
  100. # [16:12] * Philip dereferences now
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  102. # [16:13] <Philip> Looks quite neat, but the lack of canvas support for perspective transforms makes textures ugly :-(
  103. # [16:14] <MikeS> true that
  104. # [16:14] <MikeS> but still impressive what can be done within the constraints
  105. # [16:15] <Philip> The only way to get perspective-correct texturing is to draw each line of pixels individually, which is horribly slow
  106. # [16:15] <Philip> (which is why Canvex doesn't have floor textures enabled)
  107. # [16:15] <MikeS> aha
  108. # [16:16] <Philip> Given the limitations, it's certainly nicely done :-)
  109. # [16:17] * DanC sent "Gentle now... " mail re bespin and accessibility
  110. # [16:18] <Philip> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/3d.html was my attempt at 3D triangles
  111. # [16:18] <Philip> but I didn't try to add texturing
  112. # [16:19] <Philip> (Ooh, 8fps in FF3.1 - that's not too awful)
  113. # [16:20] <Philip> (Well, yes it is, but relative to expectations it's okay)
  114. # [16:22] <annevk> wow, that thread is weird
  115. # [16:22] <jgraham> annevk: Which one?
  116. # [16:22] * jgraham wonders why he is missing a number of mails
  117. # [16:23] <jgraham> Ah, there they are
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  119. # [16:23] <annevk> me too, do you think it might be mail.opera.com?
  120. # [16:24] <jgraham> annevk: Seems reasonable. I was missing everything in public-html from about 15:30 - 16:00 and a few either side of that
  121. # [16:25] <annevk> I meant the <canvas> thread btw
  122. # [16:25] <MikeS> jgraham, annevk : that's a secret feature of Opera Mail
  123. # [16:25] <MikeS> the noise throttler
  124. # [16:25] <annevk> :)
  125. # [16:26] <jgraham> Awesome
  126. # [16:26] <MikeS> I think JL worked on that one
  127. # [16:27] <MikeS> DanC: I'm off my call and back on now for 30 minutes or so, until I need to go to the 羚
  128. # [16:27] * DanC looks that up..
  129. # [16:28] * DanC should have sent mail in the mean time
  130. # [16:30] <MikeS> DanC: I should have time to work more on the markup draft tomorrow. though I got a serious case of 援 aka cedar fever
  131. # [16:30] <MikeS> stupid cedar trees all over the place in Tokyo
  132. # [16:30] <DanC> MikeS, is there outstanding feedback on http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/ ? or have you answered all the feedback you intend to answer?
  133. # [16:30] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5: The Markup Language (at www.w3.org)
  134. # [16:30] <MikeS> not as bad as Austin, pbut close
  135. # [16:31] <MikeS> I'm sure there is outstanding feed back
  136. # [16:31] <MikeS> I have a number of messages I need to respond to
  137. # [16:31] <MikeS> I also opened issues in W3C bugzilla for others
  138. # [16:31] <DanC> ok
  139. # [16:31] <MikeS> the ones that Hixie brought up
  140. # [16:32] <MikeS> I'd really rather managed things in bugzilla
  141. # [16:32] * DanC is still hoping to avoid w3c bugzilla
  142. # [16:32] <MikeS> as much as we can
  143. # [16:32] <MikeS> whY?
  144. # [16:32] <MikeS> it works fine
  145. # [16:32] <MikeS> bugzilla is bugzilla
  146. # [16:32] <DanC> it's yet another tracking thingy to learn
  147. # [16:32] <DanC> learn, track, manage, etc.
  148. # [16:32] <MikeS> well, at least it's a semi-standard
  149. # [16:32] <MikeS> and not yet another NIH thing
  150. # [16:33] <DanC> yes, it's fairly widely used, but I have managed to avoid using it pretty much everywhere
  151. # [16:33] <MikeS> well, that's not much to be proud of
  152. # [16:33] <Philip> It's not that complicated once you've spent a couple of years using it
  153. # [16:33] <DanC> yes, it's that 2 years that I'm not looking forward to
  154. # [16:33] <MikeS> since several major browser projects use Bugzilla for tracking bugs
  155. # [16:33] * jgraham has yet to find a tracking system that is much worse than bugzilla
  156. # [16:33] * Joins: laplink (link@78.26.2.115)
  157. # [16:34] <MikeS> even Opera was using a Bugzilla for bug tracking
  158. # [16:34] <jgraham> Er, that's not waht I meant
  159. # [16:34] <MikeS> internally
  160. # [16:34] <MikeS> at least Opera as also until recently
  161. # [16:34] <jgraham> I mean Bugzilla is not much worse than the median bug tracking system
  162. # [16:34] <Philip> MikeS: Opera's wasn't really like proper Bugzilla
  163. # [16:35] <jgraham> Even though bugzilla has quite a bad reputation
  164. # [16:35] <MikeS> bugzilla sucks
  165. # [16:35] <MikeS> really
  166. # [16:35] <MikeS> mightily
  167. # [16:35] * Philip doesn't know whether it was originally derived from Bugzilla code, but it didn't really look like it
  168. # [16:35] <MikeS> it is total is total crap
  169. # [16:36] <MikeS> there are infinitely better bug tracking systems
  170. # [16:36] <jgraham> e.g.?
  171. # [16:36] <MikeS> they are just all proprietary
  172. # [16:36] <Philip> MikeS: Have you seen the median bug tracking system? :-)
  173. # [16:36] <jgraham> :p
  174. # [16:36] <MikeS> well, I'm not saying there's nothing worse
  175. # [16:36] <jgraham> For example trac is bad in different ways
  176. # [16:36] <DanC> for a community shaped like mozilla (zillions of users, hundreds of developers), I bet bugzilla is quite a reasonable match.
  177. # [16:37] <jgraham> Roundup is supposed to be good but I have never actually seen it used
  178. # [16:37] <DanC> roundup is happy-happy-joy-joy
  179. # [16:37] <DanC> at least: for a smallish project
  180. # [16:38] <DanC> I used roundup to manage a few students working with timbl on tabulator. http://dig.csail.mit.edu/issues/tabulator/
  181. # [16:38] <pimpbot> Title: List of issues - Tabulator Issue Tracker (at dig.csail.mit.edu)
  182. # [16:38] <DanC> anyway... I don't expect to change MikeS's mind about bugzilla
  183. # [16:39] <MikeS> I will keep using Bugzilla for the markup spec
  184. # [16:39] <MikeS> as long as I'm involved with it
  185. # [16:39] <MikeS> and I'm glad that Hixie and zcorpan and annevk and hsivonen and others have found it useful
  186. # [16:40] * DanC hunts for a "view source" link; finds one, but it doesn't point to a CVS deely
  187. # [16:40] <MikeS> one fundamental problem with W3C Tracker is that it's not open-access
  188. # [16:40] * Quits: laplink (link@78.26.2.115) (Ping timeout)
  189. # [16:40] <DanC> that's a feature
  190. # [16:40] <MikeS> nope
  191. # [16:40] <DanC> i.e. it's as open-access as we choose to make it
  192. # [16:41] <MikeS> it's not a feature if you want to avoid wasting the time of browser developers and library developers who only care about one particular issue at a time
  193. # [16:41] <MikeS> they certainly do not want to subscribe to public-html and enjoy the full grandness of that
  194. # [16:42] <DanC> I wonder why you haven't changed the way the HTML WG tracker works, if you think it's broken
  195. # [16:43] <DanC> the one change I remember you making was to make it *less* open
  196. # [16:43] <MikeS> because it's not my code
  197. # [16:43] <MikeS> yeah, I'm all for less open
  198. # [16:43] <DanC> the code supports as much openness as we like, no?
  199. # [16:44] <MikeS> I guess
  200. # [16:44] <DanC> indeed, the HTML WG tracker is optimized for a coherent WG tackling a set of issues as a group.
  201. # [16:44] <DanC> it seems there's room for both tracker and bugzilla
  202. # [16:44] <MikeS> the only thing I really find exceptional about Tracker is the IRC integration
  203. # [16:45] <MikeS> there is indeed room for both Tracker and bugzilla
  204. # [16:45] * DanC goes back to trying to check out H:TML
  205. # [16:45] <DanC> I'm at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/ ; which link do I follow?
  206. # [16:45] <pimpbot> Title: W3C Public CVS Repository (at dev.w3.org)
  207. # [16:45] <Lachy> MikeS or DanC, is it possible to edit the title of Action 105 to fix the spelling mistake in the title? http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/105
  208. # [16:45] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-105 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  209. # [16:46] <Lachy> s/insure/ensure/ (in the title of that action)
  210. # [16:46] <DanC> yes, you can edit actions, lachy
  211. # [16:46] <MikeS> "Tracker and bugzilla both have their place" is a point I tried to make 6 months ago
  212. # [16:46] <Lachy> ah, ok. Done
  213. # [16:47] <annevk> and s/XHTML WG/XHTML2 WG/
  214. # [16:47] <annevk> oh well
  215. # [16:47] <Lachy> annevk, fixed
  216. # [16:48] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.136.52.180)
  217. # [16:49] <DanC> MikeS, I've looked in all the places I can think to look, and I can't find the CVS repository for http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/ ; help?
  218. # [16:49] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5: The Markup Language (at www.w3.org)
  219. # [16:50] <MikeS> DanC: WWW/html/wg/markup-spec
  220. # [16:50] <gsnedders> Mike is working in secret!
  221. # [16:50] <MikeS> DanC: I want to move it all to dev.w3.org
  222. # [16:50] <gsnedders> It's a whole new cabal of one!
  223. # [16:50] * Quits: myakura (myakura@221.191.119.20) (Quit: Leaving...)
  224. # [16:50] <MikeS> but systeam has told me they are going to chop me up into little pieces if I put more load on dev.w3.org
  225. # [16:50] <DanC> ah
  226. # [16:51] <DanC> if there's moving to be done, let's move to hg
  227. # [16:51] <MikeS> because apparently, dev.w3.org is, like, a sewing machine with a web server on it
  228. # [16:51] <MikeS> or something
  229. # [16:51] * DanC LOL
  230. # [16:51] <MikeS> my answer to them has been, buy a computer
  231. # [16:51] <MikeS> or two
  232. # [16:51] <MikeS> or there
  233. # [16:51] <MikeS> three
  234. # [16:52] <DanC> cue re-run of me telling W3C management how much resource should be allocated to the HTML WG, followed by them (a) chartering 2 WGs in stead of one and (b) cutting my job in half.
  235. # [16:52] <MikeS> amen to that
  236. # [16:53] <MikeS> preaching to the choir
  237. # [16:54] <annevk> I wonder what would've happened with one WG
  238. # [16:54] <MikeS> anyway, I got to step out for now
  239. # [16:54] <DanC> ok. hasta.
  240. # [16:54] <MikeS> I'll be back before the hour
  241. # [16:54] <MikeS> or so
  242. # [16:54] <DanC> I still hope we'll find out, annevk
  243. # [16:57] * Joins: laplink (link@78.26.2.115)
  244. # [16:58] <DanC> ah... a spot-check `xmlwf markup-spec/src/syntax.html ` give thumbs-up
  245. # [17:00] * DanC studies the Makefile... wow...
  246. # [17:01] * DanC wanders off to grab breakfast...
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  250. # [17:18] * Philip can't work out whether http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Feb/0444.html means "Why use canvas for Bespin?" or "Why have canvas in HTML5?"
  251. # [17:18] <pimpbot> Title: Re: Example canvas element use - accessibility concerns from Janina Sajka on 2009-02-18 (public-html@w3.org from February 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  252. # [17:30] * Lachy wonders why the bespin thread has a high proportion of annoying top posting
  253. # [17:33] <DanC> ACTION-98 due next week
  254. # [17:33] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-98.
  255. # [17:33] <trackbot> ACTION-98 Discuss missing-alt with the WAI CG and report back due date now next week
  256. # [17:33] <Philip> Ooh, how useful - bz asked exactly the thing I was wondering about, and for each case gave exactly the same answers that I was thinking of but was too lazy to post
  257. # [17:34] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30)
  258. # [17:42] * MikeS wanders back in
  259. # [17:42] <MikeS> DanC: that makefile will give you hallucinations if you stare at it long enough
  260. # [17:42] <MikeS> or nightmares
  261. # [17:43] <DanC> I tried `make clean; make` and lost thusly:
  262. # [17:43] <DanC> Traceback (most recent call last):
  263. # [17:43] <DanC> File "./xhtmltohtml", line 16, in <module>
  264. # [17:43] <DanC> from html5lib import html5parser, liberalxmlparser
  265. # [17:43] <DanC> ImportError: No module named html5lib
  266. # [17:43] <DanC> ah... I can prolly fix that myself...
  267. # [17:44] <DanC> darn:
  268. # [17:44] <DanC> ~/projects/html5lib$ python setup.py install --home=~
  269. # [17:44] <DanC> python: can't open file 'setup.py': [Errno 2] No such file or directory
  270. # [17:45] <DanC> aha...
  271. # [17:45] <DanC> TEST FAILED: /home/connolly/lib/python/ does NOT support .pth files
  272. # [17:45] <DanC> oh no... level 15 of setuptools hell
  273. # [17:46] <Philip> You can use html5lib without installing it
  274. # [17:46] <MikeS> DanC: would be good to have a local install of html5lib regardless
  275. # [17:47] <Philip> Just point PYTHONPATH at html5lib/python/src or whatever it's called
  276. # [17:47] * Philip has never intentionally installed html5lib anywhere
  277. # [17:47] <DanC> wild... the Makefile has FOO_FLAGS for umpteen values of FOO, but not PYTHON
  278. # [17:48] <DanC> html/wg$ PYTHONPATH=~/projects/html5lib/python/src make
  279. # [17:48] <DanC> ok, that got me past the html5lib error...
  280. # [17:49] <DanC> File "/home/connolly/projects/html5lib/python/src/html5lib/inputstream.py", line 270, in detectBOM
  281. # [17:49] <DanC> self.rawStream.seek(encoding and seek or 0)
  282. # [17:49] <DanC> IOError: [Errno 29] Illegal seek
  283. # [17:49] * jgraham often installs html5lib but maybe I alays have a raqndom setup.py file lying around
  284. # [17:49] <jgraham> *random
  285. # [17:49] <Philip> DanC: I know nothing about that bit of code; blame jgraham ;-)
  286. # [17:49] <DanC> I found the setup.py file in the python directory
  287. # [17:49] <MikeS> DanC: cause it don't run python directly (it just runs modified html5lib parse.py script)
  288. # [17:50] <jgraham> DanC: Is it trying to read from stdin?
  289. # [17:50] <DanC> yes, I think so, jgraham (make output includes: ./xhtmltohtml - )
  290. # [17:50] <jgraham> Ah. That might be broken
  291. # [17:50] <DanC> MikeS, what version of html5lib works for you?
  292. # [17:50] * jgraham goes to file a bug on himself
  293. # [17:51] <MikeS> DanC: the source from html5lib svn
  294. # [17:51] <DanC> what svn rev?
  295. # [17:51] <MikeS> 1171
  296. # [17:51] <DanC> I seem to be at Revision: 1258 Last Changed Date: 2009-01-13 11:16:10 -0600 (Tue, 13 Jan 2009)
  297. # [17:52] <DanC> ah. ETOONEW
  298. # [17:52] <MikeS> I've not synced up in a long time
  299. # [17:52] <DanC> are you game to try an svn up? or shall I downgrade?
  300. # [17:53] * DanC hears the ghost of Jim Gettys droning on about error-22, i.e. the use of a new technology in the development of a new technology
  301. # [17:54] * MikeS syncs up now to latest html5lib svn
  302. # [17:54] <Philip> Syncing is probably dangerous (just ask the Titanic) - old known-to-work versions are better than the latest barely-tested version
  303. # [17:55] <DanC> "if it jams, force it; if it breaks, it needed replacing anyway"
  304. # [17:55] <MikeS> amen
  305. # [17:55] <MikeS> bash it
  306. # [17:55] * DanC Updated to revision 1268.
  307. # [17:55] <Philip> (I think I noticed a while ago that html5lib stopped reading from stdin, but I don't know if I even mentioned the problem on IRC)
  308. # [17:55] <MikeS> me to r1268 too
  309. # [17:56] * DanC doesn't get the connection between svn sync issues in the Titanic... wonders if now is the time to fill gaps in his pop-culture education...
  310. # [17:57] <MikeS> setup.py build and install worked find for me
  311. # [17:57] <DanC> did you install as root? I try not to do that
  312. # [17:57] <Philip> DanC: ("sync" vs "sink")
  313. # [17:57] * Philip doesn't know anything about pop-culture
  314. # [17:57] <jgraham> DanC: I just checked in a quick hack to make reading from stdin maybe work
  315. # [17:57] <DanC> ah. a nice shallow rabit trail. thanks, Philip
  316. # [17:57] * MikeS now runs make clean && make on markup-spec sources
  317. # [17:59] <MikeS> GNU make is an abomination
  318. # [17:59] <DanC> I'm learning to transition from terminal windows to emac's shell mode; in a terminal, ctrl-p gets me the previous command to re-run or edit; surely there's an analog in emacs; anybody have the relevant clue?
  319. # [17:59] * MikeS is a Vim user
  320. # [17:59] <DanC> heathen.
  321. # [17:59] <MikeS> Emacs makes baby Jesus cry
  322. # [18:00] <jgraham> ctrl + up?
  323. # [18:00] <DanC> bingo!
  324. # [18:00] <DanC> ~/projects/html5lib/python$ python setup.py install
  325. # [18:00] <DanC> running install
  326. # [18:00] <DanC> error: can't create or remove files in install directory
  327. # [18:01] <Philip> My supervisor uses cut-and-paste to repeat shell commands in Emacs
  328. # [18:01] <DanC> did you install as root, MikeS ? I try not to do that; I try to let ubuntu manage the software in /usr
  329. # [18:01] <MikeS> DanC: I installed as root
  330. # [18:02] <MikeS> I don't use Ubuntu
  331. # [18:02] <DanC> ok. I'll stick with PYTHONPATH
  332. # [18:02] <jgraham> DanC: That sounds like setuptool's fault, not mine :)
  333. # [18:02] <MikeS> I run Debian unstable
  334. # [18:02] <MikeS> Ubuntu is for sissies
  335. # [18:02] <DanC> debian unstable is fun, as long as you have a 2nd machine on stand-by for when it horks up
  336. # [18:02] <Philip> DanC: Use --home (or --prefix or something) to install, perhaps?
  337. # [18:03] <DanC> I tried --home; see above for resulting poetry
  338. # [18:03] <MikeS> I would run Gentoo but I'm not quite that insane yet
  339. # [18:03] <MikeS> I need to sustain some further major head injuries before being ready for Gentoo
  340. # [18:03] <DanC> actually, the 2nd machine bit goes for all operating systems. they all hork up now and again.
  341. # [18:03] <gsnedders> MikeS: I'm sure that can be arranged
  342. # [18:03] <Philip> DanC: I thought the above with --home was because you weren't in the right directory for setup.py?
  343. # [18:03] <Philip> MikeS: I run Gentoo
  344. # [18:04] <MikeS> uh oh
  345. # [18:04] <Philip> MikeS: (I'm not sure whether that supports your point)
  346. # [18:04] <MikeS> heh
  347. # [18:04] <DanC> hmm... could be, Philip ...
  348. # [18:04] * jgraham have never quite got setuptools to work right
  349. # [18:04] <Philip> (Probably it does)
  350. # [18:04] <jgraham> Or rather it did once but doesn't anymore
  351. # [18:04] <MikeS> Philip: I didn't know you had so much free time on you hands
  352. # [18:04] <Philip> DanC: Oh, or was that the error about .pth files?
  353. # [18:04] <MikeS> it's like building Qt
  354. # [18:05] <MikeS> start the build and come back a week later to check on its progress
  355. # [18:05] <Philip> MikeS: It's nowhere near that slow on a modern machine :-)
  356. # [18:05] <DanC> ~/projects/html5lib/python$ python setup.py install --home=~
  357. # [18:05] <DanC> TEST FAILED: /home/connolly/lib/python/ does NOT support .pth files
  358. # [18:05] <jgraham> And I did once manage to get a nice configuration where each user installed packages to their home directory on the local machine and the root user installed to a custom location on the server and got various 32 vs 64 bit things right working
  359. # [18:05] <Philip> MikeS: though if you're compiling the entirety of KDE then you probably want to leave it running overnight
  360. # [18:06] <jgraham> But I have no idea how
  361. # [18:06] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.246)
  362. # [18:06] <Philip> DanC: Does ~/lib/python exist?
  363. # [18:06] <DanC> yes
  364. # [18:06] <Philip> MikeS: (but compiling the entirety of KDE is very rare, and you can still run everything while it's building in the background)
  365. # [18:07] * DanC is back to IOError: [Errno 29] Illegal seek
  366. # [18:07] * DanC checks to see if mike's make worked
  367. # [18:07] <Philip> DanC: Hmm, okay, I've got no idea what .pth files are so I can't help much
  368. # [18:07] <MikeS> Philip: speaking of.. one of the really great things about KDE is that even if you want to make one really minor hack to a KDE app -- like Konsole -- you the have to recompile the entirety of KDE to actually get a build of the app with your change
  369. # [18:07] <MikeS> geniuses
  370. # [18:07] <Philip> DanC: Did you update to r1269?
  371. # [18:07] <DanC> no; MikeS, did you?
  372. # [18:07] <Philip> MikeS: Not in Gentoo :-)
  373. # [18:07] <Philip> MikeS: It's all modularised nowadays
  374. # [18:08] <MikeS> yippee for Gentoo
  375. # [18:08] <DanC> MikeS, are you using r1269?
  376. # [18:08] <MikeS> I use Debian for religious reasons
  377. # [18:08] <Philip> DanC: r1269 is a few minutes old
  378. # [18:08] <MikeS> DanC: just synced up and rebuilding now
  379. # [18:09] * DanC Updated to revision 1269
  380. # [18:09] <Philip> and hopefully fixes the stdin thing
  381. # [18:09] <Philip> (and if it doesn't then it's jgraham's fault)
  382. # [18:09] <DanC> indeed, no more Illegal seek
  383. # [18:09] <jgraham> I think there is no doubt that it is all my fault
  384. # [18:09] <jgraham> DanC: :(
  385. # [18:09] <Philip> jgraham: Why ":("?
  386. # [18:10] <jgraham> Oh, I misread that
  387. # [18:10] <jgraham> As no, more illegal seek
  388. # [18:10] <DanC> ok... so... the main product is 5.html , MikeS ?
  389. # [18:10] <Philip> MikeS: (http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/desktop/kde/kde-split-ebuilds.xml - it's so exciting to read all these things when trying to install Linux)
  390. # [18:10] * DanC dons dunce cap
  391. # [18:10] <MikeS> r1269 work fine for me
  392. # [18:10] <pimpbot> Title: Gentoo Linux Documentation -- The KDE Split Ebuilds HOWTO (at www.gentoo.org)
  393. # [18:11] <Philip> jgraham: Ah, right :-)
  394. # [18:11] <DanC> I've been running make in html/wg , not html/wg/markup-spec
  395. # [18:11] <MikeS> Philip: "exciting" is one way top put it
  396. # [18:11] <MikeS> DanC: ah
  397. # [18:11] <MikeS> I wrote that html/wg Makefile about 20 year ago, I think
  398. # [18:11] <DanC> current hurdle: make: trang: Command not found
  399. # [18:11] <MikeS> I have no idea what it actually does
  400. # [18:11] * Philip is always glad to have a choice between three cron daemons when following the Gentoo installation manual
  401. # [18:12] <MikeS> trang makes an orange drink for you, I think
  402. # [18:12] <MikeS> or a transvestite
  403. # [18:12] <MikeS> I think there's an option for choosing which
  404. # [18:13] * DanC prays to the apt gods for trang...
  405. # [18:13] <Philip> It translates between different flavours of fruit drinks
  406. # [18:13] <DanC> next hurdle:
  407. # [18:13] <MikeS> trang is packaged for debian as a gcj binary
  408. # [18:13] <DanC> trang schema/html5full-aria.rnc html5full-aria.rng
  409. # [18:13] <DanC> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NullPointerException
  410. # [18:13] <DanC> *** Got java.lang.NullPointerException while trying to print stack trace
  411. # [18:13] <MikeS> I think
  412. # [18:13] <MikeS> contact Mr. James Clark please
  413. # [18:14] <MikeS> trying to debug JC code is futile
  414. # [18:14] <Philip> An exception while printing the stack trace? That sounds pretty weird
  415. # [18:14] <DanC> I suspect java horkage
  416. # [18:15] <MikeS> yah
  417. # [18:15] <MikeS> gcj stuff is a total mess, basically
  418. # [18:15] <MikeS> failure points all over
  419. # [18:15] <DanC> $ java -version
  420. # [18:15] <DanC> java version "1.6.0_0"
  421. # [18:15] <DanC> IcedTea6 1.3.1 (6b12-0ubuntu6.1) Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_0-b12)
  422. # [18:15] <DanC> OpenJDK Server VM (build 1.6.0_0-b12, mixed mode)
  423. # [18:15] <MikeS> what the hell is that
  424. # [18:15] <MikeS> ?
  425. # [18:15] <MikeS> install the open-java
  426. # [18:16] <MikeS> or whatever they call call
  427. # [18:16] <MikeS> it
  428. # [18:16] <MikeS> those other VMs are a total joke
  429. # [18:16] <DanC> `apt-cache search open-java` loses
  430. # [18:16] <Philip> openjdk-6-jre I think
  431. # [18:17] * DanC sees openjdk-6-jre - OpenJDK Java runtime, using Hotspot JIT
  432. # [18:17] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  433. # [18:17] <DanC> "openjdk-6-jre is already the newest version"
  434. # [18:17] <MikeS> DanC: what Philip said
  435. # [18:18] <MikeS> openjdk-6-jdk
  436. # [18:18] <Philip> The JRE ought to be enough, I'd have thought
  437. # [18:18] <MikeS> and apt-get burn "other java VM junk"
  438. # [18:18] <DanC> "openjdk-6-jdk is already the newest version"
  439. # [18:18] <Philip> Maybe there's two separate versions of Java installed?
  440. # [18:19] <DanC> $ dpkg -S `type -p java`
  441. # [18:19] <DanC> dpkg: /usr/bin/java not found.
  442. # [18:19] <MikeS> ls /etc/alternatives/java
  443. # [18:19] <DanC> $ ls /etc/alternatives/java
  444. # [18:19] <DanC> /etc/alternatives/java
  445. # [18:19] <Philip> DanC: update-java-alternatives -s java-6-openjdk
  446. # [18:19] <Philip> perhaps
  447. # [18:20] <Philip> or run /usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/bin/java directly
  448. # [18:20] <MikeS> fugging idiot debian java toads
  449. # [18:20] <DanC> `sudo update-java-alternatives -s java-6-openjdk` produced several screenfulls of something... let's see...
  450. # [18:20] <DanC> but `java -version` gives the same IcedTea foo
  451. # [18:21] <Philip> Oh
  452. # [18:21] <Philip> Hmm
  453. # [18:21] <Philip> http://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/howto-ubuntu-linux-install-configure-jdk-jre/ says more stuff but it's too long so I didn't read it
  454. # [18:21] <DanC> it does include "OpenJDK Server VM (build 1.6.0_0-b12, mixed mode)"; that's not what we want?
  455. # [18:21] <pimpbot> Title: Ubuntu Linux Install Sun Java Development Kit ( JDK ) and Java Runtime Environment ( JRE ) (at www.cyberciti.biz)
  456. # [18:22] <DanC> MikeS, what does `java -version` show for you?
  457. # [18:23] <DanC> $ file /usr/bin/trang
  458. # [18:23] <DanC> /usr/bin/trang: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.6.8, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), stripped
  459. # [18:23] <DanC> is trang actually java?
  460. # [18:23] <Philip> Maybe it's compiled with gcj
  461. # [18:24] <Philip> On Ubuntu Hardy I get:
  462. # [18:24] <Philip> java version "1.6.0"
  463. # [18:24] <Philip> OpenJDK Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0-b09)
  464. # [18:24] <Philip> OpenJDK Client VM (build 1.6.0-b09, mixed mode, sharing)
  465. # [18:24] <DanC> aside from client vs server, that's pretty close
  466. # [18:24] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52)
  467. # [18:25] <MikeS> mike@yarukinai
  468. # [18:25] <MikeS> $ java -version
  469. # [18:25] <MikeS> java version "1.6.0_0"
  470. # [18:25] <MikeS> OpenJDK Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_0-b11)
  471. # [18:25] <MikeS> OpenJDK Client VM (build 1.6.0_0-b11, mixed mode, sharing)
  472. # [18:25] <Philip> DanC: And apart from the whole IcedTea bit
  473. # [18:25] <MikeS> DanC:
  474. # [18:26] <Philip> DanC: (Client vs server is probably because you're on 64-bit and only have the server VM)
  475. # [18:26] <DanC> hmm... I think I'm running 32 bit ubuntu. (though this is a 64bit machine, but I went back to 32 bits for quicken)
  476. # [18:26] <Philip> But anyway it sounds kind of like Ubuntu compiled trang with GCJ so the JVM is irrelevant
  477. # [18:27] <Philip> DanC: (Oh, okay then, it might be something else :-) )
  478. # [18:27] <DanC> MikeS, where do you get trang from? do you build your own?
  479. # [18:28] <MikeS> apt-cache show trang
  480. # [18:29] <MikeS> DanC: fwiw, I find that those Debian f*ucked up java alternatives don't work with validator.nu local install either
  481. # [18:30] <Philip> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/trang/+bug/141447
  482. # [18:30] <pimpbot> Title: Bug #141447 in trang (Ubuntu): trang segfaults on gutsy (x86 and AMD64) (at bugs.launchpad.net)
  483. # [18:30] <Philip> The last comments have NullPointerExceptions
  484. # [18:30] <MikeS> well, that sucks
  485. # [18:30] <MikeS> my build needs trang
  486. # [18:30] <Philip> Should be easy enough to use the .jar instead
  487. # [18:31] <MikeS> yeah
  488. # [18:31] <Philip> Download trang.jar and run 'java -jar trang.jar com.thaiopensource.relaxng.translate.Driver ...' or something like that, I guess?
  489. # [18:31] <MikeS> TRANG="java <something> et.c" make
  490. # [18:32] <MikeS> TRANG="java -jar trang.jar com.thaiopensource.relaxng.translate.Driver ...'" make
  491. # [18:32] <Philip> Only without the ... or the ' :-)
  492. # [18:33] <MikeS> problem with debian devs is that they really are convinced they are so much goddamn smarter than everybody else
  493. # [18:33] <MikeS> e.g, the openssl patch thing
  494. # [18:34] <MikeS> constantly coming up with non-solutions to non-problems
  495. # [18:35] <MikeS> i.e., in this case, why do I need gcj-monstrosity version of trang that introduces new bug vectors?
  496. # [18:35] <MikeS> anyway
  497. # [18:36] <Philip> Because GCJ is Free
  498. # [18:36] <DanC> wait... first we worship debian devs ("I use debian for religious reasons") then we villify them? ;-) i'm sure they have good days and bad, just like the rest of us
  499. # [18:36] <Philip> and it's native code so it must be faster than those silly JITs
  500. # [18:37] <DanC> I'm using intrepid (ubuntu 8.10), not hardy. I wonder if bug 141447 is still there
  501. # [18:37] <MikeS> Free has become a euphemism for FUBAR
  502. # [18:37] <Philip> DanC: Last comment - "I've just tried trang under Intrepid (version 20030619-6.1), and got the same NullPointerException as seen on Hardy."
  503. # [18:38] <DanC> trang from debian works for you, MikeS ? and it's native code?
  504. # [18:38] <DanC> ah. I see, Philip
  505. # [18:38] <MikeS> DanC: gcj trang in Debian unstable works for me in my environment
  506. # [18:39] <MikeS> "I use debian for religious reasons" was spoken with a shovelfull of irony
  507. # [18:40] <jgraham> To remind you of the problems with religion?
  508. # [18:40] <DanC> oh, really? ;-)
  509. # [18:41] <MikeS> maybe what the free software movement needs is more brutality.. more Pinochet, less flute-playing fat RMS
  510. # [18:42] <MikeS> hmm, on 2nd thought I take that back
  511. # [18:42] * Joins: asbjornu (asbjorn@84.48.117.191)
  512. # [18:42] <MikeS> except for the the "less flute-playing fat RMS" part
  513. # [18:43] <Philip> Indeed, we should firebomb the houses of developers of immoral non-Free software
  514. # [18:43] <asbjornu> hi, what's the current status on extensibility in HTML5? is the proposed way forward to include foreign grammars into the main specification on a need for need basis or is there a more general mechanism at place (or in work)?
  515. # [18:44] * jgraham isn't sure he likes that idea
  516. # [18:44] <MikeS> asbjornu: case-by-case
  517. # [18:44] <asbjornu> can I propose an alternative?
  518. # [18:44] <jgraham> asbjornu: Suggestions are evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Other extension points include class, rel, etc.
  519. # [18:45] <jgraham> asbjornu: I bet you can
  520. # [18:45] <MikeS> asbjornu: though there already exist a number of mechanisms for extensibility in html4/html5
  521. # [18:45] * jgraham maybe didn't quite sound right there
  522. # [18:45] <asbjornu> nothing as generic as xmlns afaik
  523. # [18:45] <Julian> indeed
  524. # [18:45] <asbjornu> so I want to propose something as generic, but compatible with the HTML5 parser
  525. # [18:46] <Philip> (There's nothing that lets you extend HTML5 with new elements, or with new attributes other than data-*)
  526. # [18:46] <asbjornu> indeed
  527. # [18:46] <gsnedders> (In a conforming way)
  528. # [18:46] <MikeS> asbjornu: we love namespaces
  529. # [18:46] <gsnedders> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#HTML5_should_support_a_way_for_anyone_to_invent_new_elements.21
  530. # [18:46] <pimpbot> Title: FAQ - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org)
  531. # [18:46] <MikeS> asbjornu: if you plan doesn't use namespaces, we will reject it out of hand
  532. # [18:46] <asbjornu> yea, I've read the FAQ
  533. # [18:47] <asbjornu> my plan doesn't involve namespaces :)
  534. # [18:47] <Philip> MikeS: Your shovel is seeing a lot of use today
  535. # [18:47] <jgraham> also note that using : anywhere is basically not allowed
  536. # [18:47] <gsnedders> Also, using any characters that gsnedders can't easily type is basically not allowed.
  537. # [18:47] <asbjornu> it involves a generic mechanism for creating a well-specified DOM out of any foreign or known markup
  538. # [18:47] <MikeS> asbjornu: oK, at least it *must* use colons, and not, say, dashes. because colons are better
  539. # [18:47] <jgraham> asbjornu: I suggest proposing the proposal rather than talking about proposing the proposal
  540. # [18:48] <asbjornu> yea, I'm trying ;)
  541. # [18:48] <gsnedders> Otherwise I'm sure we'll just become ridiculous :)
  542. # [18:48] <gsnedders> (As if we weren't already.)
  543. # [18:48] <Philip> gsnedders: I think we're a long way past that point already
  544. # [18:48] <gsnedders> Philip: I thought it was a line and not a pont.
  545. # [18:48] <gsnedders> *point
  546. # [18:49] <Philip> gsnedders: Well, they're the same thing from a certain perspective
  547. # [18:49] <asbjornu> if we, at the parser level, say how a given DOM is to be constructed given a set of characters defined as an element with attributes, etc, that is understood at a semantic level in the user agent before-hand, can't this exact same parsing mechanism also be used to create a DOM for completely foreign (at the time, but perhaps not in the future) markup as well?
  548. # [18:49] <jgraham> gsnedders: Not even 鏝?
  549. # [18:49] <gsnedders> Philip: Only one very specific perspective though
  550. # [18:49] <gsnedders> jgraham: Not even.
  551. # [18:49] <Philip> gsnedders: Actually two
  552. # [18:49] <gsnedders> Philip: Oh shut up.
  553. # [18:49] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  554. # [18:50] <jgraham> asbjornu: Yes
  555. # [18:50] <gsnedders> asbjornu: Yeah, sure. At the current time you can create any element name you want.
  556. # [18:50] <asbjornu> in that way, any foreign markup can be declared as such in the DOM and in a validator, but can still be styled, hooked up with scripts, etc., even though the browser has no idea about the semantic meaning and function of the given markup?
  557. # [18:50] <gsnedders> (except for image)
  558. # [18:50] <asbjornu> exactly
  559. # [18:50] <gsnedders> (which has really whacky behaviour for compat)
  560. # [18:50] <asbjornu> so the deal is basically just to allow any kind of foreign markup and not mark it as non-conforming or invalid
  561. # [18:51] <Philip> asbjornu: HTML5 already says "<foo><bar>x</foo>" is parsed into a foo element containing a bar element containing a text node; is your proposal just to make that conforming?
  562. # [18:51] <gsnedders> asbjornu: What happens if we want to add an element "foo" in the future? What do we do about all the people who already use it?
  563. # [18:51] <Philip> (That seems really bad from a conformance-as-a-form-of-error-checking perspective, since it'll never notice when you misspell tag names)
  564. # [18:51] <asbjornu> Philip: my proposal is at least to not make it invalid and if possible; conforming, yes
  565. # [18:52] <DanC> asbjornu, there's quite a diversity of opinion in the HTML WG on how extensibility should work on HTML. We try to track it as issue 41 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/41
  566. # [18:52] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-41 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  567. # [18:52] * jgraham was going to say that having <igm> be valid would be annoying
  568. # [18:52] <DanC> ugh... the description in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/41 is pretty slanted.
  569. # [18:52] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-41 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  570. # [18:52] <asbjornu> I assume we will have the same or even better data harvesting techniques for HTML6 as we have now, given the decision to drop certain elements and attributes defined in HTML4 from HTML5 based on that data
  571. # [18:53] <asbjornu> that same technique can then be used when HTML6 is on the table to survey which elements are safe to define and which are not
  572. # [18:54] <asbjornu> my assumption is that, mostly, extensions will be defined by working groups and initiatives like microformats and not in a large scale by ad hoc HTML authors, so my bet is that this won't give us a headache down the line
  573. # [18:55] <Philip> asbjornu: There's already some difficulty with conflicts (e.g. some people wrote pages with <footer> years ago, and Opera had problems with people using WF2 input attribute names for unrelated purposes), so it seems dangerous to encourage more conflicts because there won't be any decent names left for HTML6 to use
  574. # [18:55] <asbjornu> true
  575. # [18:56] <Julian> sounds like paritioning the set of valid names would make sense, so HTML* can alyways draw from a reservoir not allowed to be used by anybody else
  576. # [18:56] <Philip> asbjornu: There seems to be quite a lot of evidence of ad hoc making-stuff-up, e.g. http://blog.unto.net/web/a-survey-of-rel-values-on-the-web/comment-page-1/ found 1.8 million distinct 'rel' values
  577. # [18:56] <pimpbot> Title: A Survey of Rel Values on the Web DeWitt Clinton (at blog.unto.net)
  578. # [18:57] <gsnedders> Let's prefix all HTML* elements with "html-" and we'll be saved!
  579. # [18:58] <gsnedders> Seriously though, if we do really allow any element, I'd rather we just followed what xml-names already does, just using a hyphen instead of a colon
  580. # [18:58] <Philip> and if you scroll down http://philip.html5.org/data/attr-count-pages.txt then there's lots of typos and lots of what look like large scale ad hoc making-stuff-up (and this is despite validators complaining about it)
  581. # [18:59] <gsnedders> Philip: That means we can't create a @cat :(
  582. # [19:00] <gsnedders> How am I going to live in a world without semantic lolcats?
  583. # [19:00] <Philip> Julian: That partitioning seems to be the approach taken by data-*
  584. # [19:00] <Philip> Julian: but it seems a bit ugly :-(
  585. # [19:01] <Philip> (particularly for anything that's meant to be used more widely than a single site)
  586. # [19:01] <Julian> Yes, I would recommend another way to do that.
  587. # [19:01] <asbjornu> hm
  588. # [19:01] <asbjornu> I'll think a bit about it over dinner
  589. # [19:01] * asbjornu is now known as asbjornu|dinner
  590. # [19:01] <Julian> I think it's used in some other markup languages.
  591. # [19:01] <gsnedders> Dinner is always a good idea.
  592. # [19:01] <MikeS> dinner+wine is better
  593. # [19:02] <Philip> A while ago I proposed reserving any attribute names whose MD5 sum started with an even digit, which would allow plenty of scope for choosing good names on either side of the partition
  594. # [19:02] <gsnedders> MikeS: I disagree.
  595. # [19:06] <Philip> gsnedders: I think lolcats are inherently presentational, so they should be handled by CSS
  596. # [19:09] <MikeS> DanC: so have you managed to actually build successfully?
  597. # [19:09] * Joins: hober (ted@206.212.254.2)
  598. # [19:10] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52) (Quit: dsinger)
  599. # [19:12] <MikeS> DanC: I got to drop off relatively soon
  600. # [19:13] * MikeS is on 4 times the recommended dosage of 援/allergy meds, plus two tall cans of Yebisu: The Hop
  601. # [19:13] * Joins: adele (adele@17.255.108.202)
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  604. # [19:15] <gsnedders> MikeS: Drop off voluntarily or will you be forced to by the meds?
  605. # [19:17] <MikeS> trying to do the math.. 3am here, and I have a 10am meeting
  606. # [19:17] <MikeS> so that gives me 13 hours to slepp
  607. # [19:17] <MikeS> sleeeeep
  608. # [19:17] <MikeS> excellent
  609. # [19:17] * Quits: maddiin (mc@87.185.198.194) (Quit: maddiin)
  610. # [19:18] <Philip> MikeS: http://www.google.com/search?q=10-3 may help you
  611. # [19:18] <pimpbot> Title: 10-3 - Google Search (at www.google.com)
  612. # [19:21] <MikeS> Philip: that pages appears to be saying I have will either get 7 days of sleep or will need to catch the 3:10 to Yuma
  613. # [19:22] * MikeS is away: 3:10toYuma
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  616. # [19:34] * asbjornu|dinner is now known as asbjornu
  617. # [19:36] <asbjornu> ok, so perhaps a large scale "everyone's invited" extension mechanism isn't the best way forward, but how about not requiring more than an easy IANA registration or something similar instead?
  618. # [19:36] <asbjornu> head@profile could be the place to put the extension information, in the form of an URI (if the extensions aren't registered) or a keyword (if the extensions are registered)
  619. # [19:37] <asbjornu> I know head@profile is dropped from HTML5 at the moment, but it could be reintroduced with a larger and more important purpose than it has in HTML4
  620. # [19:38] <asbjornu> how about it? I do, however, have to say that extending based on reserved prefixes of MD5 sums sounds like a very intriguing and well thought out idea! ;)
  621. # [19:39] * DanC tunes back in after lunch, wondering if MikeS is still around
  622. # [19:39] <DanC> no, I haven't built yet...
  623. # [19:40] <DanC> didn't chase down trang (did some WAI coordination email )
  624. # [19:40] * Quits: adele (adele@17.255.108.202) (Quit: adele)
  625. # [19:40] <smedero> http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.platform/browse_thread/thread/0c2bbb6ed726800b
  626. # [19:40] <pimpbot> Title: An alternate take on HTML5 - mozilla.dev.platform | Google Groups (at groups.google.com)
  627. # [19:55] * Joins: rking3 (rking3@99.27.42.97)
  628. # [19:55] <pimpbot> planet: Bespin and Canvas: Part 1 <http://benzilla.galbraiths.org/2009/02/17/bespin-and-canvas/>
  629. # [20:04] * Joins: aroben (aroben@69.142.95.189)
  630. # [20:16] <Philip> asbjornu: Why would people bother with the registration process and adding a profile attribute, when they could just use the new elements/attributes without all that work (like they already do today)?
  631. # [20:16] * Quits: laplink (link@78.26.2.115) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
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  633. # [20:40] <asbjornu> because the profile could have an effect on how the element is interpreted?
  634. # [20:40] <gsnedders> asbjornu: But nobody bothers with @profile.
  635. # [20:41] <gsnedders> asbjornu: So at least pre-existing things need to cope with it not being there
  636. # [20:41] <Philip> asbjornu: Interpreted by what?
  637. # [20:41] <Philip> gsnedders: That's irrelevant since we're talking about new things, not pre-existing things
  638. # [20:42] <asbjornu> yes, Philip is right, this is for forward compatibility, not backwards
  639. # [20:43] <asbjornu> I mean interpreted by the user agent, e.g. given functionality and a semantic meaning
  640. # [20:44] <asbjornu> for a given registered profile, elements defined in that profile and their underlying semantics and functionality can be implemented by a UA in a distributed but still controlled manner
  641. # [20:44] <Philip> asbjornu: Would <link rel=stylesheet> and <script src> not be sufficient for providing the new features' functionality in UAs?
  642. # [20:45] <asbjornu> I'm talking about the whole smack you get form a defined element and/or attribtue(s) today, including semantics
  643. # [20:45] <asbjornu> If all I wanted was extensible functionality, then yes, scripts and perhaps stylesheets might have fit the bill
  644. # [20:46] <Philip> asbjornu: What do you mean by "semantics"? It seems a fairly vague term :-)
  645. # [20:46] <asbjornu> but I want HTML extensible in all directions, so a future MathML, SVG or whatever might be integrated into user agents long before the HTML WG have convened and thrown a new draft of HTML on the table
  646. # [20:46] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  647. # [20:47] <asbjornu> "semantics" is a fairly vague term on a semantical level :P
  648. # [20:47] <gsnedders> asbjornu: But that realistically needs namespaces and not what you're proposing :P
  649. # [20:48] <asbjornu> I don't think it does although I agree that namespaces have solved that problem for XML quite nicely (although not very elegantly)
  650. # [20:48] <gsnedders> asbjornu: MathML and SVG both define themselves as being in x namespace, so we'd need a way to get an element in that namespace
  651. # [20:48] <asbjornu> I think <head profile="mathml svg"> could work
  652. # [20:49] <asbjornu> that's the work of the profile
  653. # [20:49] <gsnedders> asbjornu: But if I don't know of the SVG profile, I can't put it in the namespac
  654. # [20:49] <gsnedders> asbjornu: Which means I get a different DOM in one that knows the profile and one that doesn't, which sucks.
  655. # [20:50] <Philip> MathML and SVG require years of work to implement their rendering and DOM interfaces in browsers, so the syntax is a pretty trivial issue
  656. # [20:50] <asbjornu> for HTML, namespaces are non-existent, so that's in fact a non-issue
  657. # [20:50] <gsnedders> asbjornu: For SVG and MathML they are existant, so that is an issue
  658. # [20:50] <asbjornu> for XHTML, that might be a problem if the namespace is required
  659. # [20:51] <Philip> Namespaces do exist in HTML - you can write createElementNS etc
  660. # [20:51] <gsnedders> asbjornu: Their namespace is required by the SVG and MathML specifications.
  661. # [20:51] <Philip> (There's just no syntax for them)
  662. # [20:51] * Joins: karl (karlcow@70.81.32.202)
  663. # [20:51] <asbjornu> I know, but I don't think the namespace URI has a purpose in (X)HTML
  664. # [20:52] <gsnedders> For embedding anything like SVG and MathML is certainly does
  665. # [20:52] <asbjornu> at least not when you get the grammar defined through a profile
  666. # [20:52] <gsnedders> asbjornu: How is @profile better?
  667. # [20:52] <asbjornu> it's compatible with HTML
  668. # [20:52] <asbjornu> namespaces isn't
  669. # [20:52] <asbjornu> @profile is a layer of indirection; an abstraction
  670. # [20:52] <gsnedders> asbjornu: But SVG isn't compatible with HTML, so that's not an issue
  671. # [20:52] <pimpbot> asbjornu: Huh?
  672. # [20:53] <gsnedders> pimpbot: Shut up you stupid bot.
  673. # [20:53] <pimpbot> gsnedders: Huh?
  674. # [20:53] <asbjornu> SVG can be made fully compatible with HTML
  675. # [20:53] <gsnedders> Just make the svg element magic and make desendent-or-self go in the SVG namespace, and all works fine
  676. # [20:54] <asbjornu> it's basically just to drop the 'xmlns' attribute, define an 'svg' profile and do <head profile="svg">
  677. # [20:54] <gsnedders> asbjornu: The problem is then the UA needs a mapping of @profile to namespace URI
  678. # [20:54] <Philip> asbjornu: And then make the profile attribute optional, and it'll be like HTML5 :-)
  679. # [20:54] <gsnedders> From a DOM POV the svg elements have to be in the svg namespace
  680. # [20:55] <Philip> (Well, forbidden rather than optional)
  681. # [20:55] * gsnedders goes back to doing schoolwork due in yesterday
  682. # [20:55] <asbjornu> only if it needs that namespace URI for anything. what purpose does the namespace URI have other than define the elements within it belonging to a specified grammar?
  683. # [20:55] <asbjornu> from a DOM POV, the namespace is only relevant because SVG defines it to be relevant. HTML5 can circumvent this, imho
  684. # [20:56] <asbjornu> if you introduce foreign markup (markup defined out of band of the HTML5 specification), a @profile attribute could be made required
  685. # [20:57] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30)
  686. # [20:58] <asbjornu> back to the namespace URI; the grammar a given namespace defines the meaning of can just as well be defined by a keyword in @profile
  687. # [20:59] <asbjornu> an unknown namespace URI yields the exact same result as an unknown @profile keyword would, so in that respect it's the same
  688. # [20:59] <asbjornu> a known namespace URI yields the same result in XHTML as a @profile keyword, but the @profile approach has the advantage of being portable and compatible with HTML as well
  689. # [21:00] <asbjornu> what I'm thinking of is something like this for registered values of @profile: http://www.iana.org/assignments/link-relations/link-relations.xhtml
  690. # [21:00] <pimpbot> Title: Atom Link Relations (at www.iana.org)
  691. # [21:04] <asbjornu> ...
  692. # [21:06] * Joins: sryo (sryo@190.245.204.198)
  693. # [21:07] <Philip> asbjornu: I'm still not sure what you're suggesting the profile attribute should do... If I have an HTML document that uses SVG like you're suggesting, and then remove the profile attribute, what would change?
  694. # [21:12] <asbjornu> the SVG elements would be rendered as unknown markup
  695. # [21:13] <asbjornu> only with the correct @profile value in place would the SVG elements be given proper meaning to the UA
  696. # [21:13] * Joins: adele (adele@17.244.16.159)
  697. # [21:13] <Philip> asbjornu: Why would that be an advantage compared to a design where SVG elements are always rendered as SVG elements, regardless of the profile?
  698. # [21:14] <asbjornu> they aren't in HTML
  699. # [21:15] <asbjornu> tbh, the 'xmlns' could in fact be kept as is, but would give absolutely no meaning to an HTML UA
  700. # [21:22] <Philip> Whether they are "in HTML" seems a fairly arbitrary distinction - if a UA implements SVG, it could just consider the SVG elements to be "in HTML" (like how HTML5 already handles MathML)
  701. # [21:35] <asbjornu> sorr if I was unclear, what I meant was that the SVG elements aren't rendered as SVG elements "in HTML" serialization
  702. # [21:36] <asbjornu> the problem with including support for a grammar on a case per case basis is that it doesn't scale, and isn't what I'd call an extension mechanism, but rather the quite opposite
  703. # [21:37] <asbjornu> having support for MathML in HTML should not be up to HTML for anything else than having defined a consistent and clear way to extend the language so user agents can implement it regardless of what the HTML WG thinks about the grammar and whether it deserves the WG's blessing for inclusion in HTML6 in 2014
  704. # [21:44] <karl> http://blog.unto.net/web/a-survey-of-rel-values-on-the-web/
  705. # [21:44] <pimpbot> Title: A Survey of Rel Values on the Web DeWitt Clinton (at blog.unto.net)
  706. # [21:52] * Quits: MikeS (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  707. # [22:11] <hober> DanC, re: your C-p / C-<up> Emacs shell question from a few hours ago, M-p/M-n are (usually) the way to cycle through history, in shell modes, the minibuffer, and elsewhere.
  708. # [22:12] * DanC gives it a try...
  709. # [22:12] <DanC> nifty. thanks.
  710. # [22:21] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  711. # [22:23] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  712. # [22:29] <DanC> MikeS, you were going to raise an issue about mime types... I thought you did that, but I don't see it in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues
  713. # [22:29] <pimpbot> Title: Issues - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  714. # [22:29] * DanC hunts for paper trail...
  715. # [22:31] * DanC finds the internal action...
  716. # [22:32] <DanC> ah. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/53
  717. # [22:32] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-53 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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  721. # [22:50] * Philip wishes (in the context of the canvas thread) there were fewer "I think accessibility is important" posts and more "I propose this feature that I think will improve accessibility" posts, because the latter could lead to something productive
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  726. # Session Close: Thu Feb 19 00:00:01 2009

The end :)