/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-02-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Feb 24 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  7. # [00:25] <heycam> DanC or tlr, would one of you be able to change the acls for http://www.w3.org/2009/02/19-svg-irc to public for me?
  8. # [00:25] <heycam> (the .txt and .html versions both, i guess)
  9. # [00:25] <DanC> done
  10. # [00:25] <heycam> DanC, thanks
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  12. # [00:30] <heycam> DanC, could you also install http://mcc.id.au/temp/19-svg-minutes.html as http://www.w3.org/2009/02/19-svg-minutes.html?
  13. # [00:30] <pimpbot> Title: SVG Working Group Teleconference -- 19 Feb 2009 (at mcc.id.au)
  14. # [00:31] <DanC> I could, but I don't think that's a good use of team contact time. I suggest you mail it to the WG as an attachment
  15. # [00:31] <DanC> or CVS commit it someplace where you have CVS write access
  16. # [00:31] <DanC> or mail it to www-archive and send the wg a pointer
  17. # [00:31] <heycam> ok
  18. # [00:31] <heycam> yeah that'd work
  19. # [00:41] <pimpbot> planet: Weekly Status Report, W08/2009 <http://home.kairo.at/blog/2009-02/weekly_status_report_w08_2009>
  20. # [00:44] <heycam> Hixie, we discussed SVG in text/html last week at our F2F, so we will mail some comments in soon about that (re your reply to the htmlwg minutes)
  21. # [00:53] <Hixie> cool
  22. # [00:53] <Hixie> i'm in no rush, the longer you wait the easier it is for me :-)
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  24. # [01:14] * karl starts to think that we will need a checkbox like "Enable Java" and "Enable Javascript" for Canvas. I know it is done in Javascript I would like a specific checkbox for Canvas. Enable Java is unchecked. I'll probably uncheck canvas.
  25. # [01:14] <heycam> the longer we wait the more entrenched existing implementations get, you mean? :)
  26. # [01:14] <Hixie> heycam: yup :-)
  27. # [01:18] <Philip> karl: Do you want an "Enable <marquee>" and "Enable <font color>" and "Enable <h1>" checkbox too?
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  31. # [01:47] <karl> hmm Philip you gave me a simple idea. display: none; :) that should work.
  32. # [01:49] <smedero> karl: though I guess that might not save you from a poorly coded <canvas> widget... (if you were aiming to block <canvas> for performance reasons ala as Mac users tend to do w/ "flashblock").
  33. # [02:01] <karl> smedero: yes performance and dumb marketing and advertisements messages. Because that will come for sure ;)
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  41. # [03:36] <gsnedders> karl: Try looking through for where the second column is an IP address
  42. # [03:38] <karl> most of them no ?
  43. # [03:38] <gsnedders> Most of them no
  44. # [03:39] <gsnedders> Enough in some datasets (though obviously not this one) for it to be a big enough issue for it to be ignored in most UAs
  45. # [03:39] <karl> PLus the fact that
  46. # [03:39] <karl> Content-Location = "Content-Location" ":"
  47. # [03:39] <karl> ( absoluteURI | relativeURI )
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  49. # [03:40] <gsnedders> Yeah. What you want to do is see if the IP address actually matches the URI if you try and access it
  50. # [03:40] <karl> huh?
  51. # [03:41] <karl> You mean line of this type http://209.184.141.5/caldwellheight/|http://209.184.141.5/caldwellheight/Default.htm ?
  52. # [03:41] <gsnedders> Yeah
  53. # [03:41] <karl> what's wrong with those?
  54. # [03:41] <gsnedders> The first column is the URI accessed, the second is the content-location value
  55. # [03:42] <gsnedders> In that case? Nothing
  56. # [03:42] <karl> yes understood
  57. # [03:42] <karl> give me an example you consider bogus
  58. # [03:42] <gsnedders> http://www.infocad.gr|http://192.168.100.90/INDEX.htm
  59. # [03:43] <karl> ok then ? what is wrong with it?
  60. # [03:43] <gsnedders> Try accessing both of the URIs
  61. # [03:43] <karl> you mean they might give you a different result ?
  62. # [03:44] <gsnedders> Note the latter is a private network one, and thus makes no sense on the public web
  63. # [03:44] <karl> yes seen that. So how many private networks in the full sample?
  64. # [03:45] <karl> Like I wonder how many are really wrong
  65. # [03:45] <karl> because from eyesight it seems not that many
  66. # [03:47] <karl> the example you gave for example is a frameset
  67. # [03:47] <karl> with a <frame src="http://www.infocadgroup.com" no border=0 noresize>
  68. # [03:49] <karl> ahah there is a pattern
  69. # [03:49] <karl> http://web-sniffer.net/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fclacsec.lima.icao.int%2F&submit=Submit&http=1.1&gzip=yes&type=GET&uak=0
  70. # [03:49] <pimpbot> Title: View HTTP Request and Response Header (at web-sniffer.net)
  71. # [03:49] <karl> another one of your list
  72. # [03:49] <karl> and again a frameset <frameset framespacing="0" border="0" frameborder="0" cols="166,*">
  73. # [03:49] <karl> both were MS Internet Server
  74. # [03:50] <karl> Now you raised my curiosity
  75. # [03:50] <gsnedders> Also a fair number will be IIS, which by default (until 7.0 IIRC) always sent Content-Location, even if you couldn't really find it
  76. # [03:50] <karl> to see which system mangles Content-Location
  77. # [03:50] <gsnedders> There are cases where Apache sends a bogus Content-Location too
  78. # [03:50] <karl> gsnedders: did you compile these stats somewhere?
  79. # [03:50] <karl> That would be cool if you did to publish them
  80. # [03:50] <gsnedders> Somewhere. That's half my issue with this.
  81. # [03:51] <gsnedders> Somewhere is the very important word. I don't know where.
  82. # [03:51] <karl> what is the other half of the issue?
  83. # [03:51] <gsnedders> It's unfinished analysis
  84. # [03:51] <karl> ahah.
  85. # [03:51] <karl> So ok. I consider Content-Location not broken then ;)
  86. # [03:52] <karl> gsnedders: the list of IPs you collected came from somewhere specific ?
  87. # [03:52] <gsnedders> karl: Coming from one server, or the list URIs you mean?
  88. # [03:52] <karl> Maybe I should try to convince Brian Wilson to get the MAMA 2, The Return of The Vengeance of The Anger Web, to look at these?
  89. # [03:53] <karl> the URIs list
  90. # [03:53] <karl> was it from a specific sample
  91. # [03:53] <gsnedders> This is one of Philip's datasets from his crawling
  92. # [03:54] <gsnedders> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=109553
  93. # [03:54] <gsnedders> http://groups.google.com/group/opera.general/msg/9496b1b58a876b6b
  94. # [03:54] <karl> gsnedders: many thanks for all the info
  95. # [03:54] <pimpbot> Title: Bug 109553 [FIX]Implement support for HTTP 1.1 Content-location header (at bugzilla.mozilla.org)
  96. # [03:54] <pimpbot> Title: relative links resolved incorrectly ? - opera.general | Google Groups (at groups.google.com)
  97. # [03:55] <gsnedders> No, two of Philip's datasets
  98. # [03:55] <gsnedders> See the start of http://hg.gsnedders.com/http-parsing/file/bbab4a6298d7/Philip%20Taylor%27s%20Header%20Data/README.txt
  99. # [03:55] <pimpbot> Title: Tolerant HTTP Parsing: Philip Taylor's Header Data/README.txt@bbab4a6298d7 (at hg.gsnedders.com)
  100. # [04:01] <karl> ahaha the bugzilla thread is enlightning
  101. # [04:02] <karl> fear and market share…
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  105. # [04:12] <karl> oh anne is heading to Keio
  106. # [04:13] * gsnedders gives up trying to keep up with where anne is in the world
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  109. # [04:16] <karl> gsnedders: http://twitter.com/annevk/status/1243428997
  110. # [04:16] <pimpbot> Title: Twitter / Anne van Kesteren: With @sideshowbarker in a ... (at twitter.com)
  111. # [04:16] <gsnedders> Yeah, I saw that
  112. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> network connection is a little unstable
  113. # [04:19] <gsnedders> On a totally unrelated note, anyone got any suggestions of where I could get a job next (academic) year?
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  116. # [04:39] <karl> gsnedders: http://www.adaptivepath.com/blog/2009/02/12/assumption-is-a-funny-thing/
  117. # [04:39] <pimpbot> Title: adaptive path » blog » Teresa Brazen » Assumption is a funny thing. (at www.adaptivepath.com)
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  119. # [04:46] <pimpbot> planet: Offered Without Comment <http://blog.mozilla.com/rob-sayre/2009/02/23/offered-without-comment-2/>
  120. # [05:00] <karl> HTML 5 Magnetism - http://snuh.tumblr.com/post/74502775/via-birdscene
  121. # [05:00] <pimpbot> Title: snuh - (via birdscene) (at snuh.tumblr.com)
  122. # [05:46] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6610] add a preventable forced-fragment method" ( message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Feb/0045.html>
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  129. # [06:17] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6606] generic 3rd-party , Smart Tags, and Activities prevention" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Feb/0046.html>
  130. # [06:18] <anne2> whoa
  131. # [06:18] <anne2> wtf
  132. # [06:18] * anne2 is now known as anne
  133. # [06:23] <gsnedders> That's long
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  137. # [07:31] * anne wonders if it's worth his time to go to the IETF HTML5 thingie
  138. # [07:31] <anne> (aside from actually finding funding)
  139. # [07:33] <gsnedders> anne: I'd say yes
  140. # [07:35] <anne> heh, ta; I'll consider it
  141. # [07:40] <anne> gsnedders, still looking for jobs outside of Oslo, I see? :)
  142. # [07:45] * Joins: adele (adele@24.7.123.50)
  143. # [08:08] <Hixie> anne: if you do go, they're looking for someone to talk about web socket
  144. # [08:10] <anne> I suppose I'm pretty well informed on that, though not as much as you :)
  145. # [08:13] <MikeSmith> Hixie: you're not planning to be there?
  146. # [08:14] <gsnedders> anne: Oh, just looking generally, yeah.
  147. # [08:14] <gsnedders> anne: I should probably do something about applying for Op though
  148. # [08:34] * Quits: adele (adele@24.7.123.50) (Quit: adele)
  149. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> action: Michael(tm) to update http://www.w3.org/TR/web-forms-2/ with placeholder doc from gsnedders
  150. # [08:51] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  151. # [08:51] <trackbot> Created ACTION-112 - Update http://www.w3.org/TR/web-forms-2/ with placeholder doc from gsnedders [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2009-03-03].
  152. # [08:51] <pimpbot> Title: Web Forms 2.0 (at www.w3.org)
  153. # [08:51] <pimpbot> Title: Web Forms 2.0 (at www.w3.org)
  154. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> action-112?
  155. # [08:51] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-112
  156. # [08:51] <trackbot> ACTION-112 -- Michael(tm) Smith to update http://www.w3.org/TR/web-forms-2/ with placeholder doc from gsnedders -- due 2009-03-03 -- OPEN
  157. # [08:51] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/112
  158. # [08:51] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-112 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  159. # [09:00] * gsnedders has his name highlighted three times and jumps in fear
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  167. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-web-forms-2-20090226/
  168. # [09:25] <pimpbot> Title: Web Forms 2.0 (at www.w3.org)
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  173. # [10:03] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i don't endorse the pay to play model
  174. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I don't understand the context
  175. # [10:05] <Hixie> being at the ietf meeting
  176. # [10:05] <anne> IETF has fees?
  177. # [10:05] <anne> o_O
  178. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> or do you mean the travel costs?
  179. # [10:11] <Hixie> isn't there a fee to participate in the bofs?
  180. # [10:35] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38)
  181. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> Hixie: dunno about fees
  182. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> I know nothing about how the IETF does the f2f meetins
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  188. # [11:49] <Julian> Mike, see https://www.ietf.org/registration/ietf74/ietfreg.py
  189. # [11:49] <pimpbot> Title: IETF Registration System (at www.ietf.org)
  190. # [11:50] <Julian> Hixie, it's not really different from W3C, except if you happen to be Invited Expert.
  191. # [11:50] <Hixie> that's a pretty big difference :-)
  192. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> Julian: thanks for the info
  193. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> action-108?
  194. # [11:54] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-108
  195. # [11:54] <trackbot> ACTION-108 -- Larry Masinter to ask the TAG to consider HTML in particular in its work on versioning -- due 2009-03-30 -- OPEN
  196. # [11:54] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/108
  197. # [11:54] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-108 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  198. # [12:00] <Julian> Hixie, it's a different financing model. The IETF has meeting fees, the W3C has membership fees.
  199. # [12:00] <Hixie> see my comments in #whatwg earlier
  200. # [12:00] <Julian> Optimally, the IETF would get more voluntary funding from big organisations, so that meeting fees could be reduced...
  201. # [12:01] <Hixie> optimally, they wouldn't have meetings :-)
  202. # [12:01] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
  203. # [12:01] <Julian> There's no requirement to attend them.
  204. # [12:02] <anne> what if you want to start new work (I know the Atom example)
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  207. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> trackbot, close issue-71
  208. # [12:16] * trackbot attempting to close ISSUE-71.
  209. # [12:16] <trackbot> ISSUE-71 Test from IRC to see if tracker mail integration working closed
  210. # [12:27] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.)
  211. # [12:30] * Parts: anne (annevk@133.27.247.187)
  212. # [12:53] <Julian> Anne, yes BOFs require physical attendance
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  214. # [13:52] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6618] New: and early on handled in a Gecko/WebKit/Presto-inconsisten way" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Feb/0047.html>
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  219. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: you there?
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  221. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> wanted to ask what precedents you found for stuff like the WF2 placeholder thing
  222. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: nm
  223. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> anne gave it to me
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  225. # [15:03] <karl> http://www.apple.com/safari/
  226. # [15:03] <pimpbot> Title: Apple - Safari - Introducing Safari 4 - See the web in a whole new way (at www.apple.com)
  227. # [15:03] <karl> new version of Safari
  228. # [15:03] * anne hopes it does cross-origin requests
  229. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> excellent
  230. # [15:07] * myakura surprised that it now has a native look for Windows
  231. # [15:09] <karl> hmm
  232. # [15:10] * karl sees dick contests again on performances. sigh
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  234. # [15:10] <rubys> "For Mac + PC" Sigh.
  235. # [15:10] <karl> that too :)
  236. # [15:11] <rubys> I have a PC. I wish that they would say what that really mean: for OSX and Windows.
  237. # [15:11] <karl> interesting things the browsers have a tendency to melt more and more the borders of UI habits between the browser and the desktop, such as cover flow for example for safari
  238. # [15:12] <Philip> "Nitro Engine" - did they think a name like "SquirrelFish Extreme" was not good for marketing?
  239. # [15:12] <karl> HTML 4.01 Support
  240. # [15:13] <karl> Safari supports HTML 4.01, the authoring language that defines the structure and layout of web documents.
  241. # [15:14] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  242. # [15:14] * karl sees another dick contest
  243. # [15:14] <karl> Safari is the first — and only — web browser to pass Acid 3. Acid 3 tests a browser’s ability to fully render pages using the web standards used to build dynamic, next-generation websites, including CSS, JavaScript, XML, and SVG.
  244. # [15:15] * Philip likes it when browsers compete on performance and standards support
  245. # [15:15] <anne> heh, I like how they emphasize "and only"
  246. # [15:15] <karl> Websites can now deliver rich, interactive media as easily as they deliver images. The first browser to support HTML 5 audio and video tags, Safari helps developers create media-rich sites that don’t require additional plug-ins. The media tags also offer a rich scripting API, allowing developers to create powerful new controls as well as controls that match the style of the page.
  247. # [15:16] <karl> anne: yep the - and only - is… :)
  248. # [15:17] * hsivonen keeps wondering why some users prefer ClearType over Apple's proper AA
  249. # [15:17] <hsivonen> "To provide a consistent Windows experience, Safari now uses Windows standard fonts, but you can choose to use Apple’s crisp anti-aliased fonts if you prefer."
  250. # [15:19] <hsivonen> karl: aren't perf 'dick constests' good for users?
  251. # [15:19] <karl> hsivonen: I have no binary answer to that.
  252. # [15:21] <Philip> hsivonen: Maybe because people get used to how text looks on Windows, and so Apple's version just looks weird and distracting
  253. # [15:25] <karl> hsivonen: the issue is not about better fonts, but as Philip said habits. It's hard for a user to switch users experience in between two paradigms all the time. I remember when the aliasing had been introduced on the mac, it took me times to adjust.
  254. # [15:26] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
  255. # [15:26] <hsivonen> true, consistency is the key
  256. # [15:27] <hsivonen> however, ClearType sucks for @font-face, because Linux & Mac -oriented Free fonts don't necessarily have ClearType-friendly hinting
  257. # [15:36] <karl> aria support good
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  262. # [15:57] * DanC finds the summary thread kinda interesting...
  263. # [15:57] * jgraham would like to have the coherence of thought and time to respond to that properly
  264. # [15:59] * anne puts time in other things
  265. # [15:59] <DanC> well, the S/N ratio of the thread is pretty good (considering the history) so far
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  268. # [16:24] * jgraham thinks that gun control anaologies are probably best avoided when discussing already controversial topics :)
  269. # [16:24] <jgraham> analogies
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  272. # [16:28] <Philip> Maybe use of the summary attribute should be encouraged in some countries and illegal in others
  273. # [16:38] <jgraham> @Summaries don't kill people, people do. And monkeys do too (if they've got an @summary)
  274. # [16:38] <pimpbot> jgraham: Huh?
  275. # [16:43] <anne> pimpbot, get AI complete will you?
  276. # [16:43] <pimpbot> anne: Huh?
  277. # [16:44] <anne> figures
  278. # [16:48] <Dashiva> jgraham: Now add in the law of attraction
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  299. # [18:54] <karl> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/02/24/Cataloging-Venial-Sins
  300. # [18:54] <pimpbot> Title: Sam Ruby: Cataloging Venial Sins (at intertwingly.net)
  301. # [18:55] <karl> I wonder how you define error handling without conformance. As in you don't know what it should be
  302. # [18:56] <pimpbot> planet: Cataloging Venial Sins <http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/02/24/Cataloging-Venial-Sins>
  303. # [18:57] <rubys1> karl: i think this is different than grammar, as in "noun+verb=sentence".
  304. # [18:58] <rubys1> It is more like "last year, font was in fashion, this year we prefer style"
  305. # [19:00] <karl> dans mon dictionnaire, cela s'appelle "usage ancien".
  306. # [19:00] <karl> in my dictionnary, this is called "old usage".
  307. # [19:03] <karl> it's why we had deprecated and obsolete in old specifications no?
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  323. # [23:20] <karl> http://280atlas.com/
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  325. # [23:34] <DanC> ACTION DanC: get Sam and Chris to look at http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34786/TPAC2009/
  326. # [23:34] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  327. # [23:34] <trackbot> Created ACTION-113 - Get Sam and Chris to look at http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34786/TPAC2009/ [on Dan Connolly - due 2009-03-03].
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  329. # Session Close: Wed Feb 25 00:00:00 2009

The end :)