/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-03-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Mar 12 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  11. # [01:40] <MikeSmith> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7936625.stm
  12. # [01:42] <Hixie> i often wonder why people get up in arms about companies doing automated stuff like mentioned in that article, when the only people who see the results of such "privacy violations" are the people affected
  13. # [01:42] <Hixie> a much bigger concern imho is with unencrypted web traffic
  14. # [01:43] <Hixie> because if someone on your local network is snopping traffic, they know who you are
  15. # [01:43] <Hixie> that's the real privacy violation
  16. # [01:44] <MikeSmith> yeah
  17. # [01:44] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I think Tim might have talked about encryption at the hearing
  18. # [01:45] <Hixie> i'm sure tim is on the ball on this
  19. # [01:45] <Hixie> it's the media i'm complaining about :-)
  20. # [01:46] <MikeSmith> one big problem when public discussions about this kind of stuff come up is the "just trust us" attitude of the ISPs and operators and their politician friends
  21. # [01:47] <Hixie> yeah because that's worked so well in the past
  22. # [01:48] <MikeSmith> BT did in fact willfully violate their own privacy policy when they did the Phorm trial
  23. # [01:48] <Hixie> wasn't just BT as i understand it
  24. # [01:48] <Hixie> but yeah
  25. # [01:48] <Hixie> i do think that out-of-band user tracking for ad purposes is a bit dodgy personally
  26. # [01:49] <Hixie> i mean it's one thing for an ad provider to be seeing the same cookie from several sites
  27. # [01:49] <Hixie> it's quite another to actively sniff network traffic and do man-in-the-middle attacks to inject ads
  28. # [01:55] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah
  29. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> the other big problem is how easy it is for the carriers to abuse -- how easily that will give in to demands from whatever government secret police to provide them with access to all the data
  30. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> like the AT&T did for the FBI in the use
  31. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> US
  32. # [01:59] <Hixie> or like pretty much any ISP in the UK or the US today as far as i understand it
  33. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> yeah
  34. # [02:01] <MikeSmith> and since they've now all been given immunity from prosecution for it, there are not consequences for them, and they've got a precedent for doing the same thing again with other data
  35. # [02:01] <MikeSmith> and my impression is that in the UK, it's even easier for the government to do stuff like that, and to control the press to suppress any reporting of it
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  38. # [02:10] <MikeSmith> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7936625.stm
  39. # [02:10] <pimpbot> Title: BBC NEWS | UK | UK Politics | Web founder's 'snooping' warning (at news.bbc.co.uk)
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  44. # [03:17] <MikeSmith> http://blog.gingertech.net/2009/03/12/progress-on-captions-for-html5-video/
  45. # [03:27] <MikeSmith> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/svg-filters-html5/
  46. # [03:27] <pimpbot> Title: SVG Filter Effects in HTML without External References (at hsivonen.iki.fi)
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  55. # [06:51] <MikeSmith> http://dbaron.org/log/20090311-accessibility
  56. # [06:51] <pimpbot> Title: David Baron's weblog: Web Accessibility as a Political Movement (at dbaron.org)
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  67. # [11:04] <karl> hmmm not sure I 100% agree with david. Or more exactly everything which is touching humans with stong implications is indeed political.
  68. # [11:04] <karl> The way the issue is framed is more about the use of public "private"/space on the Web.
  69. # [11:05] <karl> The Web has challenged a bit these definitions by making things available in the public space.
  70. # [11:05] <karl> even if the usage is intended for a few.
  71. # [11:05] <karl> it's often where the friction starts
  72. # [11:07] <karl> the comparison for the access ramp for example is not that good. It would be better if it was used for a private company, a restaurant or a shop which are not public space (aka govs) but used by the public
  73. # [11:07] <karl> that makes it slightly different in terms of thinking.
  74. # [11:09] <karl> the last paragraph of the post will put fire on the oil too. Not very clever. Basically it says to the web accessibility community, I know better than you. Usually this kind of comments creates walls
  75. # [11:10] <karl> This was the good part "Sensible choices along this spectrum can vary depending on how the Web is being used; there's a big difference between publishing to an audience of five (that might be larger later, if you happen to succeed) and publishing to an audience already known to be in the millions."
  76. # [11:11] <jgraham> karl: I don't really think that if I post a photo to flickr that is the same as if I open a shop
  77. # [11:11] <jgraham> Just because both happen to be publically avaliable
  78. # [11:11] <karl> jgraham: society choice and how the Web challenges the notion of public/private I said it in the second sentence.
  79. # [11:12] <Dashiva> It's not just about public and private, there's also money
  80. # [11:12] <jgraham> karl: I don't think that public/private is the big issue
  81. # [11:12] <karl> Dashiva: this sentence will always be right
  82. # [11:12] <Dashiva> Then why do you ignore it?
  83. # [11:12] <jgraham> I don't think that all public things need to be accessible
  84. # [11:12] <karl> ?
  85. # [11:13] <Dashiva> When I put up pictures on flickr, it's not the public nature that matters, it's that I'm not doing it to make money
  86. # [11:13] <karl> ?
  87. # [11:14] <karl> Dashiva: if I go to an extreme behavior in terms of society choice I have the right to exclude someone for his skin color because it's not about money? ;) that would not fly very far.
  88. # [11:15] <karl> but it's an interesting dimension in the discussion.
  89. # [11:15] <Dashiva> It flies just fine
  90. # [11:15] <jgraham> karl: If I make a public statue it doesn't also need an audio caption
  91. # [11:15] <Dashiva> There's no law against only having asian friends
  92. # [11:15] <karl> so let's say, not money, but services.
  93. # [11:16] * karl has difficulty to follow Dashiva
  94. # [11:16] * annevk has difficulty following karl :p
  95. # [11:16] <karl> what you choose to do, and what you choose to express in public are two very different things
  96. # [11:17] <karl> hehe annevk. This is normal ;)
  97. # [11:17] <Dashiva> It's also fully legal to say "I only want asian friends", so I don't quite follow
  98. # [11:17] * jgraham thought that David's exampl of the telephone was rather compelling
  99. # [11:18] <jgraham> Dashiva: Except in the UK, maybe
  100. # [11:18] <karl> Dashiva: it depends on which country. It's why indeed accessibility is political. Maybe the difference I have with dbaron is that I don't think political is bad
  101. # [11:19] <Dashiva> It's bad because it distracts you from the actual issues
  102. # [11:21] <karl> jgraham: a better example than audio caption, would have been, when I discussed in a cafe with a group of friends, I do not need to do sign languages of what I say because I'm in the cafe.
  103. # [11:23] <karl> Maybe there is a question of target and it is how the Web challenges the society for its notions of public/private. The target is not clearly identified AND the access rights do not make it easy to identify a target for users. ACLs not being widely deployed.
  104. # [11:23] <jgraham> karl: I still think you are hung up on the public/private thing. But I don't think that is the issue
  105. # [11:24] <karl> jgraham: that might be. :) but I do think the public <-shades-> private is part of the issue among others.
  106. # [11:25] <hsivonen> I have a yet different Flickr use case: I make some of my photos public under CC-by in order to give away surplus usefulness that is easy to give away. Having to write text alternatives for all those photos or alternatively hide the photos would block the giving
  107. # [11:25] <jgraham> karl: Consider buskers, or gigs (stand-up, music, etc.). They are public but not generally accessible
  108. # [11:26] <jgraham> (to the deaf for example)
  109. # [11:26] <karl> (I would love people stop obsess on flickr) it is becoming a red herring
  110. # [11:26] <jgraham> Or those people that paint on the street
  111. # [11:26] <hsivonen> my use case is not tied to the service used
  112. # [11:27] <karl> hsivonen: yes making things accessible is a constraint. That's understood.
  113. # [11:28] <Dashiva> So it comes back to the telephone, would you restrict 99% people from accessing something just because 1% can't?
  114. # [11:28] <karl> here to communicate with you I'm constrained to speak English. If I speak French that would not go very far.
  115. # [11:28] <karl> [06:16] <Dashiva> It's bad because it distracts you from the actual issues
  116. # [11:30] <jgraham> karl: Feel free to speak french if you like. It will of course limit your audience to those who understand you. That is (in this case) your choice
  117. # [11:30] <jgraham> The accessibility issue concerns when people should be bound to a particular choice to serve the needs of a minority
  118. # [11:31] <Dashiva> Commerical nature is a good test because it means the publisher stands to lose something. In hsivonen's case, the publisher doesn't lose anything from restricting, just everyone else.
  119. # [11:31] <jgraham> e.g. if I had to translate everything I say into French so that a French speaker with little English could follow
  120. # [11:32] <jgraham> Of course that woud prevent me saying anything at all
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  122. # [11:33] <annevk> I'll invent my own language where every word or sentence is "a" and then I can use that as alternative text and nobody can complain :p
  123. # [11:34] <karl> annevk: raymond queneau
  124. # [11:34] <karl> exercise de style
  125. # [11:34] <Dashiva> annevk: How do you mark up the language of the alt attribute?
  126. # [11:34] <annevk> I'm already quite lazy with respect to actually get photos online in the first place. I used to entertain myself with tagging for a while but now I usually don't bother anymore.
  127. # [11:35] <annevk> Dashiva, language annotation is usually wrong so I won't bother
  128. # [11:35] <karl> Dashiva: alt="this image is not for you if you are asian or if you don't want to make money". if I understood you.
  129. # [11:35] <annevk> Having to actually write text for each of those photos would completely stop me from publishing photos which would be bad for friends and family
  130. # [11:35] <Dashiva> karl: No, just no @alt
  131. # [11:36] <Dashiva> I also develop a game that discriminates brutally against people who don't support OpenGL 2
  132. # [11:36] <karl> annevk: if there are for friends and family why do you put them in public?
  133. # [11:36] <annevk> karl, because that's the easiest thing to do
  134. # [11:37] <karl> ting!
  135. # [11:37] <Dashiva> And it gives added value to other users
  136. # [11:37] <jgraham> karl: That is a crazy way to view the problem
  137. # [11:37] <annevk> karl, I already told you I'm lazy
  138. # [11:37] <karl> cf what I was saying above
  139. # [11:37] <karl> annevk: ;) I do not think that is true but that's a way to put it
  140. # [11:37] <jgraham> karl: Some of the "freinds" that my photos are for are friends that I have made by putting my photos in public
  141. # [11:38] <karl> ACL management on the Web
  142. # [11:38] <hsivonen> "Backups are for wimps. Real men upload their data to an FTP site and have everyone else mirror it." -Linus Torvalds
  143. # [11:38] <Dashiva> I can't see why he shouldn't make them public
  144. # [11:38] <karl> public-private
  145. # [11:38] <Dashiva> It seems like "Well, if I can't have alt, you can't have the image either."
  146. # [11:38] <jgraham> So there is significant value to me in making this stuff public in the hope that people like it
  147. # [11:38] <karl> ACL is dumb and under defined on the Web with regards to social behavior and then has strong implications on other issues on the society such as accessibility
  148. # [11:39] <annevk> There are other reasons too fwiw. E.g. pointing other people to certain photos without having to go through trouble
  149. # [11:39] <Dashiva> karl: Better question, what is the problem with anne making his photos public?
  150. # [11:39] <karl> I do have photos I share with friends only, but I do not make them public
  151. # [11:39] <jgraham> I can also get signifiant value from feedback on the photos I place in public
  152. # [11:39] <annevk> I don't see how public/non-public matters. My blind friends still can't deal with the photos.
  153. # [11:39] <karl> the photos I put in public, I give them the necessary information.
  154. # [11:40] <Dashiva> That's your choice
  155. # [11:40] <jgraham> annevk: AFAICT karl has the crazy notion that you should entirely deny your blind friends access to those photos
  156. # [11:41] <jgraham> I fail to see how that is at all preferable to the situation where you just put them in public and they access them or not
  157. # [11:41] <karl> jgraham: think
  158. # [11:41] <jgraham> karl: Anything in particular
  159. # [11:41] <jgraham> ?
  160. # [11:41] <karl> the notion of self in society
  161. # [11:41] <hsivonen> karl: the photo of "La Grange" at http://www.la-grange.net/karl/ says nothing about what information the photo of the hut conveys...
  162. # [11:41] <pimpbot> Title: Karl Dubost (at www.la-grange.net)
  163. # [11:42] <annevk> jgraham, really?
  164. # [11:42] <annevk> how can other people visiting my blind friends describe the photos to them then?
  165. # [11:42] <karl> hsivonen: quite the opposite
  166. # [11:42] <Dashiva> annevk: You add those people as friends instead of the blind people
  167. # [11:42] <karl> La Grange = The Barn
  168. # [11:43] <Philip> Dashiva: "would you restrict 99% people from accessing something just because 1% can't?" - it seems like more an issue of "would you require authors to give 10% less value to 99% of people, by focusing on giving 100% more value to 1% of people?" because it's about the costs of having to implement accessible solutions to universal problems
  169. # [11:43] <annevk> but then they'd have to put their credentials on my friend's computer
  170. # [11:43] <annevk> I don't think that's acceptable :)
  171. # [11:43] <jgraham> karl: Is my characterisation or your position fair (apart from "crazy" of course)?
  172. # [11:43] <Dashiva> Philip: That's not the actual tradeoff. It's giving 10% to 99% of people, or 0% to 100% of people
  173. # [11:43] <hsivonen> karl: I think the alt text doesn't convey any value-added information to the paragraph above it
  174. # [11:44] <hsivonen> karl: but the photo is supposedly there to augment the information in the paragraph
  175. # [11:44] <karl> hsivonen: no
  176. # [11:44] <karl> that is your repeated assertion that a photo should follow the logical flow of a text.
  177. # [11:44] <karl> I do not agree.
  178. # [11:44] <karl> a barn is a barn
  179. # [11:45] <karl> this house is a barn. The photo is a representation of a barn
  180. # [11:45] <Philip> Dashiva: That's not the tradeoff either - in something like Bespin, the problem of having a web-based code editor could be solved in a way that gives non-zero value to everyone, and it just might be harder to implement or have worse performance than an inaccessible solution
  181. # [11:46] <Dashiva> Philip: Now you're changing the subject. In the original case we have a service provided to some private group. You can make it public for zero or trivial cost.
  182. # [11:46] * jgraham wonders if he has annoyed karl too much
  183. # [11:46] <Dashiva> Making it 100% avaialble would have a non-trivial cost, so it's not an equivalent alternative.
  184. # [11:46] <Philip> Dashiva: That's probably because I didn't care enough to follow the discussion in detail and work out what the subject actually was :-p
  185. # [11:46] <karl> I do not agree with the assertion that Bespin should have been stopped. :) thatis as bad as other extreme of things which are said sometimes here
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  187. # [11:48] * karl has difficulty to read everything. There is a swarm of whatwg people which go to drawn discussion :) So I process not every sentences
  188. # [11:49] <annevk> that's what we do
  189. # [11:49] <jgraham> karl: On an not quite related topic, I rather enjoy your photography so from my point of view it is sad that you chose to close your flickr account
  190. # [11:50] * karl has to move to "real word" (®whatwg) work ;)
  191. # [11:50] <jgraham> I guess I could subscribe to your blog but I wouldn't really understand any of the text so it seems odd
  192. # [11:51] <karl> jgraham: I did close it but not because of accesibility reason ;)
  193. # [11:51] <karl> jgraham: thanks for the appreciation.
  194. # [11:51] <annevk> jgraham, Google Reader has automatic translation
  195. # [11:52] * annevk is waiting for the day where computers are good enough to read images
  196. # [11:52] * jgraham once came across a photo of karl taken by a random person on flickr. That was quite surprising
  197. # [11:52] <annevk> according to The Economist we're getting closer
  198. # [11:52] <annevk> of course, that's not quite the tech magazine
  199. # [11:54] <Philip> "getting closer" is a bit meaningless, since we couldn't ever get further away from anything - it's only interesting if we're getting closer at a rate that means we'll actually get there soon :-)
  200. # [11:54] <annevk> we can get further away, look at the dark ages :)
  201. # [11:55] <jgraham> I fancy a spot of book buring
  202. # [11:55] <jgraham> *burning
  203. # [11:55] <annevk> the equivalent would be tearing down lots of servers
  204. # [11:57] <Philip> Computers are almost as good as a newborn baby at recognising faces, so maybe it's not totally hopeless
  205. # [11:57] <annevk> they're better than humans apparently at recognized facial expressions
  206. # [11:58] <annevk> again, according to The Economist
  207. # [11:58] <annevk> recognizing, even
  208. # [11:58] <Philip> They get horribly confused if you turn your head ten degrees to the side, though
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  229. # [16:57] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
  230. # [16:57] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
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  232. # [16:57] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-html-wg-irc
  233. # [16:57] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  234. # [16:57] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  235. # [16:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  236. # [16:57] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
  237. # [16:57] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
  238. # [16:57] <trackbot> Date: 12 March 2009
  239. # [16:57] <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
  240. # [16:57] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
  241. # [16:57] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  242. # [16:57] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  243. # [16:57] <Zakim> +Mike
  244. # [16:58] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
  245. # [16:58] <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
  246. # [16:58] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  247. # [16:58] <Zakim> Attendees were Mike
  248. # [16:58] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike-Mobile
  249. # [16:58] <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I don't know what conference this is
  250. # [16:58] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
  251. # [16:58] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  252. # [16:58] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  253. # [16:58] <Zakim> +Mike
  254. # [16:58] * Joins: smedero (smedero@192.223.6.251)
  255. # [16:58] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  256. # [16:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  257. # [16:59] * Joins: anne (annevk@213.13.106.72)
  258. # [17:00] * Joins: Stevef (chatzilla@82.44.69.8)
  259. # [17:00] <Zakim> + +49.251.280.aaaa
  260. # [17:00] <Julian> Zakim, +49.251.280.aaaa is me
  261. # [17:00] <Zakim> +Julian; got it
  262. # [17:00] * Joins: masinter (user@76.102.104.162)
  263. # [17:00] * Joins: rubys (rubys@75.182.92.38)
  264. # [17:01] <Zakim> + +1.425.467.aabb
  265. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JanMar/0041.html
  266. # [17:01] <pimpbot> Title: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2009-03-12 from Sam Ruby on 2009-03-11 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from January to March 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  267. # [17:01] <smedero> Zakim, +1.425.467.aabb is me
  268. # [17:01] <Zakim> +smedero; got it
  269. # [17:01] <Zakim> +Sam
  270. # [17:01] * anne will follow on IRC
  271. # [17:02] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-work
  272. # [17:02] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  273. # [17:02] <Zakim> +DanC
  274. # [17:02] <rubys> anybody want to scribe?
  275. # [17:02] <Zakim> +Masinter
  276. # [17:02] * anne needs his Mac for Skype to work and can't connect from two laptops at the same time due to silly restrictions of the wifi provider here
  277. # [17:02] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  278. # [17:02] <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike, Julian, smedero, Sam, DanC, Masinter
  279. # [17:02] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52)
  280. # [17:02] * shepazu zakim, call shepazu
  281. # [17:02] * Zakim ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  282. # [17:02] <Zakim> +Shepazu
  283. # [17:03] * DanC changes topic to 'HTML WG 12 Mar http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JanMar/0041.html (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )'
  284. # [17:03] <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aacc
  285. # [17:03] <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
  286. # [17:03] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Shepazu
  287. # [17:03] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.136.52.180)
  288. # [17:03] <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
  289. # [17:03] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Julian
  290. # [17:03] <dsinger> zakim, 408.996.aacc is [Apple]
  291. # [17:03] <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named '408.996.aacc'
  292. # [17:04] <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith
  293. # [17:04] <dsinger> Zakim, +1.408.996.aacc is [Apple]
  294. # [17:04] <Zakim> +[Apple]; got it
  295. # [17:04] * shepazu only got 3 hours sleep last night
  296. # [17:04] <MikeSmith> scribenick: MikeSmith
  297. # [17:04] <dsinger> zakim, [Apple] has dsinger
  298. # [17:04] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  299. # [17:04] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  300. # [17:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  301. # [17:04] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 12 Mar 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  302. # [17:04] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@88.131.66.80)
  303. # [17:04] <MikeSmith> issue-59?
  304. # [17:04] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-59
  305. # [17:04] <trackbot> ISSUE-59 -- Should the HTML WG produce a separate document that is a normative language reference and if so what are the requirements -- OPEN
  306. # [17:04] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/59
  307. # [17:04] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-59 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  308. # [17:04] <DanC> topic: ISSUE-59 (normative-language-reference)
  309. # [17:05] <DanC> action-94: SVG Feedback on HTML5 SVG Proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Mar/0216.html
  310. # [17:05] * trackbot attempting to add comment notes to ACTION-94.
  311. # [17:05] <trackbot> ACTION-94 Report back on SVG WG's integration proposal re: issue-37 notes added
  312. # [17:05] <pimpbot> Title: SVG Feedback on HTML5 SVG Proposal from Doug Schepers on 2009-03-10 (public-html@w3.org from March 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  313. # [17:06] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  314. # [17:06] <Zakim> +??P29
  315. # [17:06] <Lachy> I'm here, IRC only for now. Unless I'm needed, I won't call in
  316. # [17:06] <masinter> I'm willing to help but would appreciate some guidance about what things Mike wants reviewed or needs help with
  317. # [17:06] * DanC wonders who called in
  318. # [17:07] <MikeSmith> Topic: Issue 50 (normative language reference)
  319. # [17:07] <MikeSmith> s/Issue 50/Issue 59/
  320. # [17:07] <dsinger> we did have a conversation about the normative status; could that be a sub-question, like the requirements are?
  321. # [17:07] <DanC> q+ to note a little progress and to invite smedero
  322. # [17:07] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  323. # [17:08] <dsinger> i.e. Should the HTML WG produce a separate document that is a language reference and if so, should it be normative, and what are the requirements?
  324. # [17:08] <smedero> I'm also intending to help. I sent Mike some rough review notes last week.
  325. # [17:08] <dsinger> q+
  326. # [17:08] * Zakim sees DanC, dsinger on the speaker queue
  327. # [17:08] <DanC> yes, we did, dsinger; I think the document now says "dunno what status this will eventually have"
  328. # [17:08] <rubys> ack danc
  329. # [17:08] <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note a little progress and to invite smedero
  330. # [17:08] * Zakim sees dsinger on the speaker queue
  331. # [17:08] <smedero> and Mike just answered my question about needing help w/ examples.
  332. # [17:08] <dsinger> q-
  333. # [17:08] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  334. # [17:09] * Julian was waiting for the document to be published before starting review.
  335. # [17:09] <MikeSmith> DanC: smedero, maybe you could send a version of your message that you mailed directly to Mike & me?
  336. # [17:09] <MikeSmith> smedero: yeah, can do that
  337. # [17:09] <dsinger> I also note that Hixie is 'about 40% done' on producing some of the supporting technical details automatically from the spec.
  338. # [17:09] <DanC> ACTION-109?
  339. # [17:09] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-109
  340. # [17:09] <trackbot> ACTION-109 -- Sam Ruby to pursue publication of HTML 5: The Markup Language... poll or whatever -- due 2009-03-26 -- OPEN
  341. # [17:09] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/109
  342. # [17:09] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-109 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  343. # [17:11] <MikeSmith> masinter: before doing a poll, would like to have a version that I can pass around internally
  344. # [17:11] <MikeSmith> Action: Michael(tm) to coordinate review of current H:TML draft
  345. # [17:11] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  346. # [17:11] * RRSAgent records action 1
  347. # [17:11] <trackbot> Created ACTION-116 - Coordinate review of current H:TML draft [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2009-03-19].
  348. # [17:12] <masinter> s/review/editing work/
  349. # [17:12] <DanC> action-109?
  350. # [17:12] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-109
  351. # [17:12] <trackbot> ACTION-109 -- Michael(tm) Smith to hand out work to reviewers of HTML 5: The Markup Language... -- due 2009-03-26 -- OPEN
  352. # [17:12] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/109
  353. # [17:12] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-109 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  354. # [17:12] <DanC> action-109 due next week
  355. # [17:12] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-109.
  356. # [17:12] <trackbot> ACTION-109 hand out work to reviewers of HTML 5: The Markup Language... due date now next week
  357. # [17:12] <MikeSmith> issue-37?
  358. # [17:12] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-37
  359. # [17:12] <trackbot> ISSUE-37 -- Integration of SVG and MathML into text/html -- OPEN
  360. # [17:12] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/37
  361. # [17:12] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-37 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  362. # [17:12] <DanC> topic: ISSUE-37 -- Integration of SVG and MathML into text/html
  363. # [17:12] <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Mar/0216.html
  364. # [17:12] <pimpbot> Title: SVG Feedback on HTML5 SVG Proposal from Doug Schepers on 2009-03-10 (public-html@w3.org from March 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  365. # [17:12] <MikeSmith> Topic: Issue 37 ( Integration of SVG and MathML into text/html)
  366. # [17:13] <DanC> (ACTION-94 is done to my satisfaction)
  367. # [17:13] <MikeSmith> [shepazu does recap]
  368. # [17:14] <masinter> (wasn't clear on what it is authors want or don't want)
  369. # [17:14] <DanC> (non-XML syntax for SVG, I think, masinter )
  370. # [17:14] <MikeSmith> shepazu: SVG WG have come from a position that favored XML-only syntax to recognizing that browser vendors favor something with features of text/html
  371. # [17:14] <MikeSmith> shepazu: I'm not convinced that authors want that kind of syntax
  372. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> shepazu: we are against HTML5 "whitelisting" particular elements ...
  373. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> ... would prefer that the HTML5 reference the SVG spec instead of whitelisting
  374. # [17:15] * Quits: DanC (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  375. # [17:16] <MikeSmith> shepazu: anyway, I think the issues are being hashed out on the mailing list
  376. # [17:16] <Lachy> from a web developer's perspective, I want syntactic consistency between HTML and SVG when they are mixed in text/html, rather than XML strictness for SVG
  377. # [17:16] * Joins: dckc (fircuser@208.54.14.37)
  378. # [17:17] * dckc waves via 3g, having suffered a cable isp outage
  379. # [17:17] <MikeSmith> [masinter discusses deployed tools that consume or produce SVG]
  380. # [17:18] * dckc is another persona of DanC, fyi
  381. # [17:18] <Zakim> -DanC
  382. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> shepazu: my concern is that we end up getting some hybrid syntax that Illustrator can't consume any more
  383. # [17:18] <anne> Illustrator can be updated just like browsers, no?
  384. # [17:19] <anne> easy to use HTML5 parsers are readily available
  385. # [17:19] <MikeSmith> shepazu: we are concerned about loss of all the network effects that SVG enjoys [if browers end up only supporting some subset of SVG]
  386. # [17:20] <anne> (it would also be interesting to know whether Illustrator can consume XHTML+SVG at present)
  387. # [17:20] <MikeSmith> masinter: that should not be called SVG [if that ends up happening]
  388. # [17:20] <MikeSmith> shepazu: 2 steps: 1, error reporting; and 2, we like the export-SVG-by-right-clicking idea
  389. # [17:21] * Julian thinks that Doug and Larry are agreeing...
  390. # [17:21] <MikeSmith> q?
  391. # [17:21] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  392. # [17:22] * Joins: DanC (connolly@128.30.52.30)
  393. # [17:22] <Julian> q+
  394. # [17:22] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  395. # [17:22] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-work
  396. # [17:22] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  397. # [17:22] <Zakim> +DanC
  398. # [17:24] <MikeSmith> shepazu: I agree with hsivonen, who said the issue is that changing parsers consumes significant resources ...
  399. # [17:25] <MikeSmith> ... [not changing parsers] results in faster performance [which is preferable]
  400. # [17:27] <MikeSmith> shepazu: point is not to punish the end user for mistakes in source
  401. # [17:27] <MikeSmith> shepazu: but I don't think there are hordes of authors our there producing SVG by hand from text editors
  402. # [17:27] <rubys> I do :-)
  403. # [17:28] <gsnedders> You're weird!
  404. # [17:28] * gsnedders hides
  405. # [17:28] <DanC> q+ to noodle on the pattern of XML languages getting fuzzy, not just HTML but also RSS, and to note risks of "I don't care how they implement it"
  406. # [17:28] * Zakim sees Julian, DanC on the speaker queue
  407. # [17:28] <anne> I do too, usually
  408. # [17:28] * Philip produces SVG by hand, via print statements in Perl scripts
  409. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> ... they are instead producing SVG using programming languages, and tools like Inkscape
  410. # [17:29] <rubys> can we start to wrap up the error recover aspects of this discussion?
  411. # [17:29] <Julian> q-
  412. # [17:29] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  413. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> shepazu: SVG does not define its own processing and parsing model
  414. # [17:29] * DanC hopes doug and larry can see the q
  415. # [17:30] * DanC hopes doug is looking at how much the scribe is/is not getting
  416. # [17:30] <Zakim> +??P16
  417. # [17:30] <MikeSmith> shepazu: but for example, there are special considerations, like the fact that svg elements must be closed
  418. # [17:31] <Julian> q+
  419. # [17:31] * Zakim sees DanC, Julian on the speaker queue
  420. # [17:31] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.29.116.63) (Quit: Leaving...)
  421. # [17:31] * Quits: dckc (fircuser@208.54.14.37) (Connection reset by peer)
  422. # [17:31] <MikeSmith> DanC: there's a pattern where structured-markup languages, when they hit the prime time, turn fuzzy
  423. # [17:32] <rubys> ack dan
  424. # [17:33] <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to noodle on the pattern of XML languages getting fuzzy, not just HTML but also RSS, and to note risks of "I don't care how they implement it"
  425. # [17:33] <rubys> ack danc
  426. # [17:33] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  427. # [17:33] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  428. # [17:33] <masinter> was just trying to understand the position
  429. # [17:33] <MikeSmith> shepazu: in the beginning, SVG tools did not require a namespace declaration, and still some tools in current use don't require it
  430. # [17:34] <masinter> to clarify my comments here: I understand the different possible positions, was trying to understand which one the SVG group was taking
  431. # [17:34] <MikeSmith> Julian: seems to be some agreement here, should take it back to mailing list
  432. # [17:34] <masinter> sorry for not noticing q :(
  433. # [17:34] <DanC> ("our wiki page" = http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_in_text-html_2009 ? )
  434. # [17:34] <pimpbot> Title: SVG in text-html 2009 - SVG (at www.w3.org)
  435. # [17:34] * Lachy wonders when the topic will be something he's interested in. (I can't hang around too long tonight)
  436. # [17:34] <MikeSmith> shepazu: there are issues about this that the implementors in teh SVG WG don't yet agree on themselves
  437. # [17:34] <MikeSmith> (oink oink)
  438. # [17:36] <DanC> close ACTION-94
  439. # [17:36] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-94.
  440. # [17:36] <trackbot> ACTION-94 Report back on SVG WG's integration proposal re: issue-37 closed
  441. # [17:36] <MikeSmith> shepazu: I would like to ask that teh SVG WG's comments be reified in the spec
  442. # [17:40] <Zakim> -DanC
  443. # [17:40] * Lachy is the telcon over, or has the scribe left?
  444. # [17:40] <Julian> q+
  445. # [17:40] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  446. # [17:41] <MikeSmith> shepazu: Hixie expressed a bit of sense of urgency on this, because implementors are implementing already the commented-out SVG part of the HTML5 draft
  447. # [17:41] <rubys> action doug to get svg working group to propose specific text
  448. # [17:41] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  449. # [17:41] <trackbot> Created ACTION-117 - Get svg working group to propose specific text [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-03-19].
  450. # [17:41] <shepazu> ACTION-117
  451. # [17:41] * Joins: connolly_ (connolly@128.30.52.30)
  452. # [17:41] <shepazu> ACTION-117?
  453. # [17:41] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-117
  454. # [17:41] <trackbot> ACTION-117 -- Doug Schepers to get svg working group to propose specific text -- due 2009-03-19 -- OPEN
  455. # [17:41] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/117
  456. # [17:42] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-117 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  457. # [17:42] <rubys> ack julian
  458. # [17:42] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  459. # [17:42] * connolly_ recovers from ANOTHER FRIGGIN TIME WARNER NET GLITCH
  460. # [17:42] * connolly_ Zakim, call DanC-work
  461. # [17:42] * Zakim ok, connolly_; the call is being made
  462. # [17:42] <Zakim> +DanC
  463. # [17:44] * Quits: DanC (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  464. # [17:44] * connolly_ is now known as DanC
  465. # [17:45] * anne wonders where the minutes went
  466. # [17:46] <DanC> (I'd like to see a test case for the whitelisting issue.)
  467. # [17:46] <shepazu> DanC: yes, that' s the correct link
  468. # [17:46] * Lachy has to leave very soon, so just refer to the email I sent yesterday for my comments on my action items
  469. # [17:46] * DanC wonders if smedero has a few minutes later to noodle on that
  470. # [17:46] <masinter> ask that a new editor's draft be generated which has 'commented out' sections noted rather than redacted, so that "Editors Draft" in W3C matches what implementors are looking at
  471. # [17:46] <DanC> Topic: ISSUE-54 (doctype-legacy-compat)
  472. # [17:46] <MikeSmith> Lachy: we looking at your action now
  473. # [17:46] <DanC> action-103?
  474. # [17:46] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-103
  475. # [17:46] <trackbot> ACTION-103 -- Lachlan Hunt to track registration of about: URI scheme -- due 2009-03-17 -- OPEN
  476. # [17:46] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/103
  477. # [17:46] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-103 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  478. # [17:46] <MikeSmith> action-34?
  479. # [17:46] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-34
  480. # [17:46] <trackbot> ACTION-34 -- Lachlan Hunt to prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for publication in some way, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference -- due 2009-02-27 -- OPEN
  481. # [17:46] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/34
  482. # [17:46] <Lachy> ok
  483. # [17:46] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-34 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  484. # [17:46] <Lachy> see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Mar/0265.html
  485. # [17:46] <pimpbot> Title: Re: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2009-03-12 from Lachlan Hunt on 2009-03-11 (public-html@w3.org from March 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  486. # [17:47] <DanC> oops. sorry. I was in the wrong place
  487. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> action-78?
  488. # [17:47] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-78
  489. # [17:47] <trackbot> ACTION-78 -- Lachlan Hunt to work on text and heading for 1.5.4 Relationship to Flash, Silverlight, XUL and similar proprietary languages -- due 2009-03-01 -- OPEN
  490. # [17:47] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/78
  491. # [17:47] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-78 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  492. # [17:48] <MikeSmith> [rubys notes that Lachy has provided status updates on the list]
  493. # [17:48] <MikeSmith> action-54?
  494. # [17:48] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-54
  495. # [17:48] <trackbot> ACTION-54 -- Chris Wilson to ask PF WG to look at drafted text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements -- due 2008-09-26 -- CLOSED
  496. # [17:48] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
  497. # [17:48] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-54 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  498. # [17:48] * DanC wonders about ACTION-110
  499. # [17:48] <Lachy> ok, if you're done with my issues now, I'm leaving. Bye.
  500. # [17:48] <DanC> ACTION-110?
  501. # [17:48] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-110
  502. # [17:48] <trackbot> ACTION-110 -- Michael(tm) Smith to add note to H:TML draft about what's currently missing and planned to be added -- due 2009-03-05 -- OPEN
  503. # [17:48] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/110
  504. # [17:48] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-110 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  505. # [17:49] <DanC> action-110 due next week
  506. # [17:49] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-110.
  507. # [17:49] <trackbot> ACTION-110 Add note to H:TML draft about what's currently missing and planned to be added due date now next week
  508. # [17:50] <dsinger> is there an informal get-together at the IETF?
  509. # [17:50] <masinter> Sam, IETF meeting?
  510. # [17:50] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  511. # [17:51] <dsinger> URI for the wiki page?
  512. # [17:51] <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/IETF_HTML5_Meeting_March_2009
  513. # [17:51] <MikeSmith> rubys: I intend to be at the informal HTML meeting at IETF
  514. # [17:51] <pimpbot> Title: IETF HTML5 Meeting March 2009 - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
  515. # [17:52] <DanC> (I just added "HTML 5 and scripting media types" to the agenda)
  516. # [17:52] <masinter> no registration required
  517. # [17:53] <DanC> wiki registration appreciated
  518. # [17:53] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  519. # [17:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  520. # [17:53] <masinter> no IETF registration required
  521. # [17:53] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 12 Mar 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  522. # [17:53] <masinter> s/no registration/no IETF registration (please wiki register)/
  523. # [17:53] <Zakim> -smedero
  524. # [17:53] <MikeSmith> [adjourned]
  525. # [17:53] <Zakim> -Julian
  526. # [17:53] <Zakim> -Sam
  527. # [17:53] <Zakim> -Masinter
  528. # [17:53] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  529. # [17:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  530. # [17:54] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  531. # [17:54] <Zakim> -DanC
  532. # [17:54] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 12 Mar 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  533. # [17:54] * Quits: Stevef (chatzilla@82.44.69.8) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.7/2009021910])
  534. # [17:54] <Zakim> -Shepazu
  535. # [17:54] <Zakim> -??P16
  536. # [17:54] * DanC never did figure out who P16 was
  537. # [17:54] <DanC> smedero, doug, let's make a test case for SVG whitelisting
  538. # [17:55] <shepazu> DanC: I'm not sure what that means
  539. # [17:55] <DanC> what's a document that (a) isn't allowed by the whitelist design, but (b) would be allowed by the SVG WG's design?
  540. # [17:55] <Zakim> -??P29
  541. # [17:55] <shepazu> ah, ok
  542. # [17:55] <DanC> I imagine something wtih a <svg:3dmagic> element or some such
  543. # [17:56] <shepazu> sure, we could do that
  544. # [17:56] <shepazu> right
  545. # [17:56] <DanC> would you, please? mail it to at least me, smedero, and www-archive, if not public-html?
  546. # [17:56] <DanC> as an attachment, so we can point validators at it
  547. # [17:56] <anne> e.g. <!doctype html><svg><b></b></svg> would not work iirc
  548. # [17:56] <anne> as <b> is in the whitelist
  549. # [17:57] <DanC> hmm... I thought the whitelist was a list of SVG elements.
  550. # [17:57] <jgraham> anne: <b> is in the blacklist
  551. # [17:57] <shepazu> correct
  552. # [17:57] <DanC> I'd be surprised if the SVG WG was arguing for <svg><b></b></svg>
  553. # [17:57] <jgraham> of things that break out of foreign content
  554. # [17:57] <hsivonen> is the point of 3dmagic to highlight a local name starting with a digit?
  555. # [17:57] <DanC> no.. sorry for the red herring
  556. # [17:57] <jgraham> the whilelsit is things like feFooBar only working for known FooBar
  557. # [17:57] <DanC> I didn't mean to cross an XML boundary
  558. # [17:57] <shepazu> whitelist == "list of sanctioned SVG elements per the HTML5 spec"
  559. # [17:58] <DanC> <svg3d:sphere> perhaps
  560. # [17:58] <jgraham> shepazu: I don't remember any such list
  561. # [17:58] <DanC> oops; maybe I'm remembering something that wasn't there.
  562. # [17:58] <jgraham> shepazu: There is a list of multi-case elements but you can pick any lowercase elements you l ike
  563. # [17:59] <jgraham> s/pick/use/
  564. # [17:59] <hsivonen> shepazu: would it work for you if HTML5 said that the parser must camelCase all SVG camelCase names the SVG processing layer of the application recognizes?
  565. # [17:59] <anne> jgraham, oh, nm then
  566. # [18:00] <DanC> hmm... I only read the subject lines of the svg whitelisting email exchange; I presumed I knew the content, but maybe not
  567. # [18:00] <shepazu> hsivonen: yes, I think that would be just fine, if there's a way to do that in spec text
  568. # [18:00] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Connection reset by peer)
  569. # [18:00] <shepazu> that's a more robust model
  570. # [18:00] * jgraham wonders how he would meet that requirement
  571. # [18:00] <shepazu> it's not perfect, but it's much better
  572. # [18:01] <Philip> hsivonen: What would html5lib do, since it doesn't have an SVG processing layer?
  573. # [18:01] <jgraham> I guess it is possible to make the SVG element list accessible to other layers
  574. # [18:01] <DanC> { whitelist == "list of sanctioned SVG elements per the HTML5 spec" } was the design I thought hixie commented out; shepazu, can you help me find it? or is jgraham right that it's not there?
  575. # [18:01] <jgraham> (or rather it's python so it's pretty hard not to ;) )
  576. # [18:02] * Philip likes it when the API is "parse this string into a DOM", rather than "parse this string into a DOM given this list of SVG elements that I support"
  577. # [18:02] <anne> DanC, I think this is about a list of SVG elements that have a different case from all lowercase
  578. # [18:02] <DanC> hmm... ok... still seems testable
  579. # [18:02] <anne> DanC, HTML5 currently maintains such a "whitelist" and the SVG WG feels it should not be there
  580. # [18:02] <shepazu> a fail case would be <svg><fePony/></svg>, where say, FF doesn't understand it, but Inkscape does, and so the exported SG still wouldn't work in Inkscape...
  581. # [18:02] <hsivonen> Philip: take all camelCase names from SVG 1.1
  582. # [18:02] <DanC> right, shepazu , that's the sort of case I'd like to explore in detail
  583. # [18:03] * DanC wonders if smedero has wandered off
  584. # [18:03] * smedero is here was poking through the commented out SVG stuff
  585. # [18:03] <shepazu> but hopefully we will be moving to an optionally-case-insensitive XML.next anyway
  586. # [18:03] * DanC ah. good.
  587. # [18:04] <hsivonen> Philip: or s/1.1/the version of SVG tracked by browsers/
  588. # [18:05] * DanC heads to #tagmem...
  589. # [18:05] <hsivonen> shepazu: optionally case-insensitive seems like a very bad idea on its face
  590. # [18:06] <shepazu> hsivonen: oh?
  591. # [18:06] <shepazu> how is that different than what the HTML5 parser does?
  592. # [18:06] <hsivonen> shepazu: case-insensitivity in text/html is not optional
  593. # [18:07] <hsivonen> optional features: bad
  594. # [18:07] * shepazu is too sleepy for religion
  595. # [18:08] <Zakim> -Mike
  596. # [18:08] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  597. # [18:08] <Zakim> Attendees were Mike, Julian, smedero, Sam, DanC, Masinter, Shepazu, dsinger
  598. # [18:08] * Joins: LHSilli (chatzilla@84.208.110.159)
  599. # [18:09] <jgraham> Wow, optional-caseinsentitiveness sounds like a disaster waiting to happen
  600. # [18:09] <Philip> shepazu: It's not religion, it's the Truth!
  601. # [18:10] <dsinger> case-sensitivity is a nightmare for those of us who have auditory memories of words
  602. # [18:10] * Philip wonders if there will also be an option between ASCII-case-insensitivity and Unicode-case-insensitivity
  603. # [18:12] <shepazu> I meant optional in the postel's law sense
  604. # [18:13] <hsivonen> I'd be OK with the SVG WG being able to amend the camelCase list early and often for names that aren't already taken by HTML. adding more stuff like textArea seems bad.
  605. # [18:13] <shepazu> hsivonen: total agreement. bonehead decision, I wish I'd insisted more that we change it
  606. # [18:14] <hsivonen> It seems there wouldn't be much harm in shipping a parser with fePony support before shipping SVG filters with fePony support
  607. # [18:17] <Philip> What about a parser that supports any element starting with "fe" and followed by a title-cased string?
  608. # [18:17] <hsivonen> anyway, I think the camelCase list will be a non-issue for browsers in practice. for standalone parsing libs, it's not going to be a notable issue, since they can err on the side of taking the latest names drafted by the SVG WG early
  609. # [18:17] <hsivonen> this is more a spec mechanics issue than a practical software issue
  610. # [18:18] <hsivonen> Philip: that would add to complexity
  611. # [18:18] <hsivonen> Philip: assuming you mean uppercasing the third character if it is a-z and the first two characters are "fe"
  612. # [18:20] <hsivonen> it would be doable, I suppose, if filter effects are the only issue here and the SVG WG wants to commit itself to single-word filter names from now on
  613. # [18:20] <hsivonen> and to not minting any other element names starting with "fe"
  614. # [18:24] <shepazu> sorry hsivonen, we've already decided to add fePrettyPony, fePapaSmurf, feMonChiChi, feRainbowLuv and several others... we have to keep up with http://www.cornify.com/
  615. # [18:24] <pimpbot> Title: Cornify - Unicorns & Rainbows On-Demand (at www.cornify.com)
  616. # [18:24] <shepazu> thanks, pimpbot
  617. # [18:26] <dsinger> I think we need feFiFoFum
  618. # [18:26] <shepazu> nice, dsinger
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The end :)