/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-03-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Mar 17 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  5. # [00:38] <takkaria> oh, someone embracing the impermanance of all things, even URIs
  6. # [00:38] <takkaria> oops
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  20. # [06:34] <MikeSmith> http://www.squarefree.com/2009/03/16/css-grammar-fuzzer/
  21. # [06:34] <pimpbot> Title: Jesse Ruderman » CSS grammar fuzzer (at www.squarefree.com)
  22. # [06:35] <MikeSmith> "Like any good fuzzer, it doesn't always follow the given context-free grammar. Sometimes it does weird stuff, such as inserting a random symbol, to throw the parser off. I was surprised that this only found one additional bug in Gecko. Perhaps this reflects the comprehensive error handling requirements of the CSS specifications and the corresponding test suites."
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  33. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> do we really want to people think it's OK to post messages to public-html and cross-post them to multiple other mailing lists at the same time?
  34. # [09:04] <hsivonen> depends on what other lists, I suppose :-/
  35. # [09:04] <hsivonen> it seems that the www-svg CC is relevant
  36. # [09:04] <shepazu> sorry for all the cross-posting :(
  37. # [09:05] <hsivonen> shepazu: I'm about to reply to you. should I drop the www-svg CC?
  38. # [09:06] <shepazu> hsivonen: it's not bothering me... I'd prefer the SVG community were in on this conversation, myself
  39. # [09:06] <hsivonen> shepazu: ok. I'll keep the CC.
  40. # [09:06] <shepazu> cool
  41. # [09:07] <shepazu> there may come a point where we need to break it off
  42. # [09:07] <hsivonen> personally, I don't like the <time> thread being CCed across public-html and whatwg
  43. # [09:07] <shepazu> MikeSmith: if this is bugging you, feel free to crack the whip
  44. # [09:07] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Ping timeout)
  45. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> shepazu: wasn't talking about the www-svg cross-posting, actually
  46. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> nor about the <time> thread either
  47. # [09:09] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: WebAIM, gawds?
  48. # [09:09] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: www-tag, rdfa-tf?
  49. # [09:09] * MikeSmith wonders what the hell that gawds list even is
  50. # [09:11] <shepazu> "The Guild of Accessible Web Designers"
  51. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> guild
  52. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> christ
  53. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> does anybody take the word "guild" seriously any more?
  54. # [09:13] <hsivonen> HTML Writers' Guild?
  55. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: case in point
  56. # [09:13] <shepazu> guild of the beguiled
  57. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> anyway, I'm sure the Guild of Accessible Web Designers is a great group of people
  58. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> my point was just that cross-posting is usually just not good
  59. # [09:32] <shepazu> MikeSmith: nice email, well-stated
  60. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> shepazu: which one?
  61. # [09:32] <shepazu> begin the beguine
  62. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> I can't remember saying anything nice today
  63. # [09:32] <shepazu> the RDFa one
  64. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> ah
  65. # [09:34] <shepazu> man, what am I still doing up?
  66. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> .t EST
  67. # [09:34] <phenny> Tue, 17 Mar 2009 03:31:55 EST
  68. # [09:34] <shepazu> I'm stupid tired.
  69. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> just stay up and watch the sunrise
  70. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> make that your goal for the day
  71. # [09:35] <shepazu> hey, phenny, you need to update for daylight saving time... it's 4:30
  72. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> .t EDT
  73. # [09:35] <phenny> Tue, 17 Mar 2009 04:32:43 EDT
  74. # [09:35] <shepazu> nn
  75. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> oyasumi
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  82. # [11:22] <karl> http://blogs.adobe.com/jd/2009/03/on_flash_killers.html
  83. # [11:22] <pimpbot> Title: jd/adobe: On Flash Killers (at blogs.adobe.com)
  84. # [11:22] <karl> >There is no "HTML5 standard", only a process which might potentially lead to a Recommendation but more plausibly would lead to something like HTML 3, XHTML or ECMAScript 4. And its history doesn't seem very open.
  85. # [11:24] <annevk> jd is quite the troll
  86. # [11:24] <annevk> see also his twitter account
  87. # [11:25] <hsivonen> annevk: URL?
  88. # [11:25] <hsivonen> http://twitter.com/jdowdell/ it seems
  89. # [11:25] <pimpbot> Title: Twitter / jdowdell (at twitter.com)
  90. # [11:27] * annevk was still trying to find it :)
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  93. # [12:01] <jgraham> karl: Is there any reason to believe that the behaviour of tools such as tidy needs to be interoperable rather than driven by the particular requirements of the situation in which they are being used
  94. # [12:02] <jgraham> ? And is there any reason to assume that the HTML spec would be the right place to specify such behaviopur if specification was desirable?
  95. # [12:04] <karl> jgraham: yes for the document I receive. It's all the principle of canonicalization
  96. # [12:04] <karl> but it could be done in another group :) I don't mind.
  97. # [12:04] * jgraham doesn't understand
  98. # [12:05] <karl> hmm
  99. # [12:05] <jgraham> I don't think it is possible to have a single canonical form for every document
  100. # [12:05] <karl> 1. it is not out of scope of html 5, not less than a parsing algorithm.
  101. # [12:06] <jgraham> Because of e.g. CSS, scripts
  102. # [12:06] <karl> 2. it is not necessary mandatory or feasible to make it in the current html5 wg
  103. # [12:06] <jgraham> karl: A parsing algorithm is needed for client interoperability. Who benefits from interoperability of tidy-like tools?
  104. # [12:07] <karl> jgraham: there will be always people asking for perfection, and binary see the world. perfect or nothing. I'm not interested by extremes :)
  105. # [12:07] <karl> jgraham: people benefits!
  106. # [12:07] <karl> :)
  107. # [12:07] <jgraham> karl: Which people? I really have no idea…
  108. # [12:07] <karl> you never used tidy?
  109. # [12:08] <jgraham> karl: Uh, sure, once or twice.
  110. # [12:08] <jgraham> But if I make htmlClean or whatever then why does it have to be compatible with tidy?
  111. # [12:08] <karl> I know people who are using a lot :) I do often when I receive documents from elsewhere.
  112. # [12:09] <karl> ?
  113. # [12:09] <karl> I have to go right now. I'll be back online in 2 hours-ish
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  131. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> .t EDT
  132. # [15:55] <phenny> Tue, 17 Mar 2009 10:52:40 EDT
  133. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> rubys: I may not be around for much longer today
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  135. # [15:55] <rubys> ok
  136. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> rubys: you at home? traveling?
  137. # [15:56] <rubys> this week home
  138. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> OK
  139. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> I'm on a call right now that has sucked most of the life out of me for today
  140. # [15:57] * rubys hates when that happens
  141. # [16:20] <shepazu> http://blog.jclark.com/2009/01/relax-ng-and-xmlid.html
  142. # [16:20] <pimpbot> Title: James Clark's Random Thoughts: RELAX NG and xml:id (at blog.jclark.com)
  143. # [16:20] <anne> xml:id should never have happened
  144. # [16:29] <shepazu> anne, having looked pretty deeply into the issue, I now agree with that statement
  145. # [16:30] <shepazu> I'm curious why you think that, though?
  146. # [16:30] <anne> I think they should just have used id="" so we only get one ID per element without confusing if/else logic
  147. # [16:31] <shepazu> ok
  148. # [16:32] <anne> depending on what Gecko/WebKit/Trident do that might still happen I suppose, at least for the Web
  149. # [16:32] <shepazu> there are problems with that approach, but I think that in retrospect, co-opting "id" would probably have been a net benefit for XML and the Web
  150. # [16:32] <shepazu> though a distinct loss for CML
  151. # [16:33] <anne> The Council of Mortgage Lenders?
  152. # [16:33] <anne> Chronic Myelogenous Leukemia?
  153. # [16:34] <anne> Cinematography Mailing List?
  154. # [16:34] <shepazu> Council of Mortgage Lenders
  155. # [16:34] <shepazu> xml:id is the reason we have this budget crisis
  156. # [16:35] <shepazu> oh, also Chemical Markup Language, which uses @id in an interesting but problematic way
  157. # [16:37] * Lachy wonders how an attribute can cause a budget crisis
  158. # [16:38] <anne> ask Hixie
  159. # [16:38] <shepazu> Lachy, the classic draconian error handling argument by Bray should tell you
  160. # [16:38] <anne> they're very expensive to introduce :p
  161. # [16:43] <Philip> shepazu: The argument that assumes you're going to send highly critical data with not even a checksum, and will rely on syntax checking to detect any transmission errors despite it detecting only a small proportion of such errors?
  162. # [16:44] <shepazu> Philip: the very same
  163. # [16:44] <anne> :)
  164. # [16:44] <shepazu> for all we know, that's what caused the collapse of Wall Street... you permissive error-handlers are to blame!
  165. # [16:45] * shepazu looks around for some tar and feathers and a pitchfork
  166. # [16:45] <anne> or you "well-formedness checking is enough" people are
  167. # [16:47] * gsnedders notes his blog getting sent incorrectly will not cause a budget crisis, thus Bray's argument does not apply to his blog
  168. # [16:48] <shepazu> anne's a witch! burn him!
  169. # [16:49] <Philip> gsnedders: But there is a separate argument that it's good to share technologies between different parts of the world (so that everyone can benefit from shared tools and skills and expertise etc), and so arguments about other uses of the technology are still relevant to your blog
  170. # [16:49] <anne> actually, despite appearances, I weigh more than a duck
  171. # [16:49] <anne> so I can't be a witch
  172. # [16:50] <gsnedders> anne: Not in a vacuum
  173. # [16:50] <jgraham> anne can't be a witch in a vacuum?
  174. # [16:50] <gsnedders> (I meant the vacuum of space, but that's still untrue)
  175. # [16:50] <Philip> So you don't mean a vacuum at all?
  176. # [16:50] <Dashiva> I think gsnedders is the witch
  177. # [16:50] <jgraham> Anyway, having a girl's name seems prety suspicious on the witch-o-meter ;)
  178. # [16:51] <gsnedders> (Seeming although the effects of gravity are negligible, there is still a gravitational force, and it will be larger on anne than on the duck, thus meaning anne weighs more)
  179. # [16:52] <rubys> I thought that as long as a person was still alive, you couldn't prove non-witch-ness.
  180. # [16:52] * jgraham hypothesises that the collapse of wall street was caused by an xml document like <transaction><rating>insane<rating></transaction>
  181. # [16:58] <Julian> Philip: isn't the checksum provided by the transport (in this case HTTP over TCP/IP, if you#re referring to the RSS/Atom examples Tim Bray mentioned)?
  182. # [17:02] <Philip> Julian: I'm referring to the example that's about receiving a possibly-truncated message like "<transaction type='credit'><amount>100000", where draconian syntax error handling saves the day and prevents you from interpreting the message incorrectly
  183. # [17:04] <shepazu> anne, who are you, who are so wise in the ways of science?
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  185. # [17:05] <Philip> ...but that doesn't seem a very good way of ensuring integrity, and when you have a better way of ensuring integrity there's no longer that need for draconian error handling
  186. # [17:05] <Julian> Philip: i think it does. If the truncation occurs on the application layer.
  187. # [17:05] <Philip> (I think I've seen that example on Tim Bray's blog, though I don't know where exactly)
  188. # [17:05] <Philip> Julian: The integrity checking should be on the application layer too
  189. # [17:05] <anne> shepazu, I am ... nah, won't do this :p
  190. # [17:05] <Philip> Julian: (i.e. in addition to the TCP checksum stuff)
  191. # [17:05] * Parts: rubys1 (rubys@75.182.92.38)
  192. # [17:06] <Julian> Philip: well, one kind of that integrity checking *is* to rely on XML-wellformedness.
  193. # [17:06] <shepazu> :D
  194. # [17:06] <Philip> http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2004/01/11/PostelPilgrim - ah, that's it
  195. # [17:06] <pimpbot> Title: ongoing On Postel, Again (at www.tbray.org)
  196. # [17:06] <Julian> You may not like it, but it seems to do the job in this case.
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  198. # [17:10] <shepazu> one solution, which I favor, is having an XML attribute in the root that indicates whether or not to apply error-correction, which defaults to yes
  199. # [17:10] <Philip> Julian: Hmm, I suppose I'm only thinking of transmission errors, in which case it works when the only possible error is truncation, but it seems unreasonable to assume no other errors are possible, and if you add a mechanism that handles the other possible errors (e.g. with a checksum of the whole document) then the wellformedness is redundant
  200. # [17:11] <Philip> But I'm probably wrong to only think of it in that way
  201. # [17:11] <shepazu> that way, all of Bray's financial data can say, "be strict", and everything else can do error correction
  202. # [17:11] <gsnedders> shepazu: Implementations will probably ignore that flag anyway
  203. # [17:12] <shepazu> gsnedders: why would they?
  204. # [17:12] <shepazu> there's value in it
  205. # [17:12] <Philip> because you're more likely to have some other code that produces the XML document string, then passes it to the communication layer which handles all the checksums and stuff, and if you e.g. ran out of buffer space in the code that constructs the XML document then no checksums will help
  206. # [17:13] <gsnedders> shepazu: There is always demand from users to be lax and to show something. With feeds, for example, so much is already non-draconian that the flag would be ignored.
  207. # [17:14] <Philip> shepazu: People think they can produce well-formed XML, so they would never bother setting the flag to enable error-correction, and would publish erroneous documents like they do now
  208. # [17:14] <jgraham> Philip: But you are relying on the clent to do the error checking anyway so you could simply make the client check for validity in cases where that is important
  209. # [17:14] <Philip> shepazu: Oops, I think I read your default the wrong way round
  210. # [17:14] <shepazu> gsnedders: not "always"... stock traders would have a very different sense of the relative importance of speed vs. accuracy
  211. # [17:15] <gsnedders> shepazu: My point is there would be parsers that would ignore the flag, making having the flag useless
  212. # [17:15] <Philip> jgraham: Validity checking is hard and nobody does it; well-formedness checking is easy because only the library writer has to care about it
  213. # [17:16] <shepazu> (actually, apparently in recent history, stock traders have shown pretty bad judgment there, but my point stands)
  214. # [17:16] <jgraham> Philip: But these are Super Importatn Fianacial Transactions. If they are really relying on well-formedness checking as a significant part of the validity checking they are doing it wrong
  215. # [17:17] <shepazu> gsnedders: I don't think you understand the use case here... there will be UAs that could enforce that, and for certain applications, people would use those *instead* of the lax ones
  216. # [17:17] * Philip wonders if stock traders actually use XML, or if they want higher-performance protocols (given how much a few milliseconds can matter)
  217. # [17:17] <hsivonen> shepazu: sure enough, CML was the first XML language to get a dedicated third-party Validator.nu front end...
  218. # [17:18] <shepazu> hsivonen: I talked to the CML guys, and their problem is pretty intractable from a universal shift to @id==ID, but I like your suggestion of simply grandfathering them
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  234. # [19:46] <karl> anne! go out of shepazu's body!
  235. # [19:47] <shepazu> SVG sucks!!
  236. # [19:48] <Lachy> oh, oops :-)
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  255. # [23:33] * Quits: jgraham (jgraham@74.53.238.210) (Ping timeout)
  256. # [23:54] * Quits: Dashiva (noone@80.202.223.46) (Quit: Dashiva)
  257. # Session Close: Wed Mar 18 00:00:00 2009

The end :)