/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-03-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Mar 18 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  34. # [12:10] * anne is amusing himself by reading some W3C Member lists
  35. # [12:11] * anne wished they were public
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  38. # [12:24] <gsnedders> Set up a proxy!
  39. # [12:25] <Philip> I think I've already suggested posting them to Wikileaks
  40. # [12:25] <Philip> You could probably set up an XSS attack to access them if you don't have Member privileges
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  43. # [13:01] <hsivonen> anne: any recommended list pointers?
  44. # [13:02] <anne> chairs
  45. # [13:02] <hsivonen> anne: thanks
  46. # [13:02] <anne> oh, and http://www.w3.org/2009/03/13-hcg-minutes.html is bad too
  47. # [13:03] <hsivonen> anne: :-(
  48. # [13:04] <anne> (apart from the encoding errors that would make it throw in browsers were it not for the W3C using the wrong media type)
  49. # [13:08] <Philip> (If browsers threw then the people who posted that page would have been made aware of the error and fixed it, instead of allowing it to quietly and insidiously disrupt the page's content)
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  53. # [13:28] <anne> I sort of think the SVG syntax discussion is not that realistic. E.g. I don't think current tools can consume XHTML+SVG. And also, tools can be updated (non-scripting parsers are cheap). And tools that are not updated will not support new SVG features you want to use either (though with some preprocessing they can still be used).
  54. # [13:33] <jgraham> A lot of discussions are not that realistic
  55. # [13:33] * Philip waits for karl to dispute the meaning of "realistic" :-)
  56. # [13:34] <anne> jgraham, true, see e.g. the latest thread on www-tag
  57. # [13:35] <Philip> https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/172103 doesn't have a lot of activity
  58. # [13:35] <anne> There has to be some point where you stop explaining and just say no. Though I guess it would be nice if the "no" had an associated pointer.
  59. # [13:35] <pimpbot> Title: Bug #172103 in Inkscape: “XHTML + SVG support” (at bugs.launchpad.net)
  60. # [13:46] <jgraham> I think it's pretty sad that there is all this activity on Member-only lists
  61. # [13:46] <jgraham> It would be nice if people would take a stand and say that they want transparency
  62. # [13:46] <Philip> It's more sad for me since I can't see any of it
  63. # [13:47] <jgraham> Philip: You aren't missing much.
  64. # [13:47] <Philip> (Not that I have any reason to see any of it, other than being nosey)
  65. # [13:55] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0182.html
  66. # [13:55] <pimpbot> Title: RE: Agenda, Thu 26 Feb, 2009 telcon from Leonard Rosenthol on 2009-02-27 (public-svg-wg@w3.org from January to March 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  67. # [13:56] <hsivonen> Is Adobe resurrecting ASV? anyway, it seems to me that plug-in SVG is now only an IE issue
  68. # [13:57] <hsivonen> which I guess means that the HTML WG isn't the best place to discuss more elaborate plug-in APIs in IE
  69. # [13:57] <hsivonen> or is that comment more about Flash than about SVG?
  70. # [13:58] <hsivonen> I'm interested in how to feed a script-generated DOM to Renesis in IE8, though.
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  73. # [15:37] * anne would rather the draft had kept the name URL; "Web Address" is so long...
  74. # [15:39] <Philip> "Web address" is no more syllables than "URL"
  75. # [15:39] <Philip> (assuming you pronounce URL the correct way, not the weird way)
  76. # [15:39] <anne> (either way, it's longer)
  77. # [15:39] * tlr notes that the correct pronounciation of URL is as the first few words of "you're'll wrong"
  78. # [15:40] * tlr ;)
  79. # [15:45] <Dashiva> "earl" is cooler
  80. # [15:46] <karl> EARL is rdf ;)
  81. # [15:49] <anne> Julian, only IE has that issue
  82. # [15:49] <anne> Julian, and also, it's not just about that
  83. # [15:59] * Joins: billmason (bmason@69.30.57.90)
  84. # [16:00] <shepazu> hsivonen: my impression is that Leonard was more concerned with other plugin technologies than ASV
  85. # [16:01] <hsivonen> shepazu: ok
  86. # [16:01] <shepazu> which is not surprising, their bread and butter is based on plugins
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  88. # [16:01] <shepazu> as such, not of particular interest to the SVG WG at this point, except insofar as IE goes
  89. # [16:02] <shepazu> but I'd be interested to see some technical proposals about what the problems for plugins are, and how Adobe would like them fixed
  90. # [16:02] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  91. # [16:02] <hsivonen> shepazu: on a related note, do you have any pointers on feeding script-generated SVG trees to Renesis (where the script lives in the JScript engine associated with an HTML document)?
  92. # [16:05] <shepazu> hsivonen: by that, you mean sending it to another script inside an SVG document, or writing to an SVG doc's DOM directly from HTML, or for inline SVG (using Renesis)?
  93. # [16:05] <hsivonen> shepazu: I mean having a script running in a text/html doc in IE and that script creating an inline SVG tree for rendering by Renesis
  94. # [16:06] * anne wonders whether Marco Neumann actually read his comment
  95. # [16:06] <hsivonen> shepazu: I guess instantiating the ActiveX control and proxying the tree creation to inside the plug-in would work also
  96. # [16:06] <shepazu> hsivonen: I see. I take it it doesn't "just work"? (I haven't had IE running for a while)
  97. # [16:07] <hsivonen> shepazu: it didn't "just work" in the way I tried
  98. # [16:07] <hsivonen> shepazu: I used the developer toolbar to inspect the DOM for stuff that was inline in source in text/html and tried to create the same kind of nodes
  99. # [16:08] <shepazu> hsivonen: if they don't have anything on their site documenting it, they should... I had managed that with ASV a long time ago, IIRC... since Renesis is trying to replace ASV functionally, they may do it the same way... let me see if I can dig out some old script
  100. # [16:16] * Julian thinks that "(non-URI) IRI" is a term for the URI experts, but probably incomprehensible to the rest...
  101. # [16:17] * Philip is not at all an expert, but assumes it's referring to a string that is an IRI and is not a URI, which doesn't seem too complex :-)
  102. # [16:18] <anne> Julian, fyi, only WebKit encodes the query part per the document encoding, the rest uses UTF-8 which is what the editor's draft mandates
  103. # [16:21] <Julian> Philip: that makes you an expert, compared to many others :-)
  104. # [16:22] <Julian> Anne, the editor#s draft of HTML5?
  105. # [16:22] <anne> of XHR1
  106. # [16:22] <anne> I'm not that interested in continuing that thread to be honest
  107. # [16:22] * anne goes to do something else
  108. # [16:22] <Julian> So, just confirming, XHR would advise to use UTF-8 everywhere? Good.
  109. # [16:23] <anne> it mandates it
  110. # [16:24] <anne> Opera and Firefox already do that
  111. # [16:24] <anne> afaict
  112. # [16:25] <Julian> well, if all UAs did what I mandated I'd be much happier (see the issue with extension methods, and Opera and IE)...
  113. # [16:26] <shepazu> hsivonen: sorry, no luck... I could write Alex Adam and see if he can supply us with the sikrit majik to do it, if you're interested, and make a tutorial
  114. # [16:28] <anne> Julian, what you mandate?
  115. # [16:29] <hsivonen> shepazu: thanks for looking. I suppose I could ping him myself.
  116. # [16:30] <shepazu> hsivonen: I suppose so... I'd like to get that info out myself, so I'm happy to do it... or you could, and please CC me?
  117. # [16:31] <shepazu> might make more sense for you to, since you have the running (but not working) samples
  118. # [16:33] * anne finishes other thing and replies
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  120. # [16:34] <hsivonen> shepazu: there's now http://download.examotion.com/pub/exa/player/1.x/1.1/pdf/RENESIS_TECHNICAL.pdf which has a script proxying example
  121. # [16:34] <shepazu> ah, great
  122. # [16:34] <hsivonen> shepazu: I guess I should try that first
  123. # [16:34] <shepazu> heh
  124. # [16:36] <shepazu> hsivonen: it's a pet peeve of mine for companies to tie their content into PDFs, rather than making it available in plain HTML on their site... at the very least, they could duplicate it in both places
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  126. # [16:37] <shepazu> I think some companies think it makes them look more serious (and maybe that fits some corporate user mentality), but it's less usable, referenceable, and builds them less search karma
  127. # [16:38] <hsivonen> shepazu: in the case of the SVG spec, though, I tend to use the PDF version because a single-page HTML version isn't available
  128. # [16:39] <shepazu> hsivonen: fair enough... I wish we had time to tweak our scripts to produce a single-page 1.1 spec (we do intend that for SVG 1.1 2nd ed, with errata folded in)
  129. # [16:40] <shepazu> but in that case, it's a matter of having both
  130. # [16:40] <Philip> shepazu: Might it be that the people producing the content are print designers, not web designers, and so they use the tools they're more comfortable with?
  131. # [16:40] <shepazu> Philip: could be
  132. # [16:41] <shepazu> but this particular PDF is just prose, tables, and lists, nothing fancy
  133. # [16:44] <shepazu> heh... under "Quirks" ... [[ Creating nodes with DOM-Level-1 Methods or with Namespace URIs
  134. # [16:44] <shepazu> defined as NULL, RENESIS will automatically put those into the default
  135. # [16:44] <shepazu> namespace (for example SVG) ]]
  136. # [16:44] <shepazu> and also [[CSS Parsing is done without case-sensitivity, so that either of the following
  137. # [16:44] <shepazu> CSS declarations will be valid:
  138. # [16:44] <shepazu> rgb(...)
  139. # [16:44] <shepazu> rGB(...)
  140. # [16:44] <shepazu> RGB(...)]]
  141. # [16:45] <shepazu> that's not a quirk, that's per (CSS) spec
  142. # [16:45] <shepazu> but might be good to let developers know, rightly enough
  143. # [16:48] <hsivonen> I guess I should also test how Renesis deals with foreignObject XHTML
  144. # [16:48] <shepazu> hsivonen: it would be interesting to see your results... could you blog them?
  145. # [16:49] <shepazu> I might need more sleep... I just read "Widget Gallery RSS like sharing format" as "Midget Gallery RSS like sharing format"
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  147. # [16:49] <hsivonen> shepazu: I'll try to blog once I've done the testing
  148. # [16:49] <shepazu> thanks, hsivonen
  149. # [16:49] <hsivonen> shepazu: might take a longish time :-(
  150. # [16:49] <shepazu> hsivonen: I'm not rushed
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  152. # [17:14] <Julian> anne, s/I/it/
  153. # [17:19] <anne> oh yes, me too
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The end :)