/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-04-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 09 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:05] * Parts: smedero (smedero@66.114.145.154)
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  7. # [00:58] <pimpbot> planet: HTML5 Web Storage and SQL <http://blog.vlad1.com/2009/04/06/html5-web-storage-and-sql/>
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  22. # [02:06] <karl> http://wiki.github.com/sorccu/cufon/about
  23. # [02:06] <pimpbot> Title: About - cufon - GitHub (at wiki.github.com)
  24. # [02:06] <karl> *sigh*
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  26. # [02:07] * Philip wonders what the sigh is about
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  29. # [02:10] <karl> Philip: about the snow which didn't stay on the ground today.
  30. # [02:10] <Philip> Oh, okay
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  39. # [04:01] <MikeSmith> @html5
  40. # [04:01] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: "spec/Overview.html 1.2125 2961 Add keygen to the void element list; mak" ( message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Apr/0033.html> ** "spec/Overview.html 1.2124 2960 First cut at defining . Affects" ( message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Apr/0032.html> ** "spec/Overview.html 1.2123 2959 Avoid switching to foreign (8 more messages)
  41. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> @html5
  42. # [04:16] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: "spec/Overview.html 1.2125 2961 Add keygen to the void element list; mak" ( message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Apr/0033.html> ** "spec/Overview.html 1.2124 2960 First cut at defining . Affects" ( message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Apr/0032.html> ** "spec/Overview.html 1.2123 2959 Avoid switching to foreign (8 more messages)
  43. # [04:20] * Quits: pimpbot (pimpbot@80.68.92.65) (Client exited)
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  45. # [04:22] <MikeSmith> @changes
  46. # [04:22] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: "1.2125 2961 Add keygen to the void element list; make those element lists alphabetical; correct an acknowledgement spelling. (whatwg r2961)" ( message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Apr/0034.html> ** "spec/Overview.html 1.2125 2961 Add keygen to the void element list; mak" ( message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html- (9 more messages)
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  49. # [04:43] <MikeSmith> @changes
  50. # [04:43] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: Add keygen to the void element list; make those element lists alphabetical; correct an acknowledgement spelling. (whatwg r2961) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Apr/0035.html> ** 1.2125 2961 Add keygen to the void element list; make those element lists alphabetical; correct an acknowledgement spelling. (whatwg r2961) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html- (8 more messages)
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  55. # [05:57] <pimpbot> annevk: Sent 3 days, 0 hours, and 26 minutes ago: <MikeSmith> Anne, I think I have pimpbot bugzilla interaction unbroke now
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  64. # [06:39] <MikeSmith> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/04/08/handling-script-errors-from-three-different-perspectives.aspx
  65. # [06:39] <pimpbot> Title: IEBlog : Handling script errors from three different perspectives (at blogs.msdn.com)
  66. # [07:01] <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/organization.html#AB
  67. # [07:01] <pimpbot> Title: 2 Members, Advisory Committee, Team, Advisory Board, Technical Architecture Group (at www.w3.org)
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  86. # [10:31] * hsivonen wonders if *must* and *should* in the Process document have interoperability implications considering that there's only a single implementation of the Process
  87. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> heh
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  101. # [12:45] <pimpbot> planet: aked HTML <http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/04/09/Naked-HTML5>
  102. # [12:46] <rubys> "aked HTML"? The title is "Naked HTML5"!
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  104. # [12:59] * Disconnected
  105. # [12:59] * Attempting to rejoin channel #html-wg
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  107. # [12:59] * Topic is 'HTML WG 12 Mar http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JanMar/0041.html (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )'
  108. # [12:59] * Set by DanC on Thu Mar 12 17:00:49
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  113. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: does org.whattf.syntax.Driver test against the local v.nu it's running in, or against http://validator.nu?
  114. # [14:08] <pimpbot> Title: Validator.nu (at validator.nu)
  115. # [14:09] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: local
  116. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> OK
  117. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I tried adding some spellcheck tests, but they seem to be failing, and I can't figure out why
  118. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> I'm getting:
  119. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> "Attribute “spellcheck” not allowed on element “p” from namespace “http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml” at this point."
  120. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> and if I run a validation check on the test file manually, it passes
  121. # [14:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: just committed parser keygen support.
  122. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> thanks
  123. # [14:12] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: is your test file in a subdirectory that gets run with the full schema and not the core schema?
  124. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> ah
  125. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> it's in the htmlcore directory
  126. # [14:12] <hsivonen> wrong directory, then
  127. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> it needs to be in the full directory, huh?
  128. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> yeah, OK
  129. # [14:13] <hsivonen> yeah
  130. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: about the keygen parser support, did you need to make any other changes?
  131. # [14:13] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I added it to the list that turns off frameset-ok
  132. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> OK
  133. # [14:14] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I put two labels on the same INPUT case
  134. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> I see
  135. # [14:14] <hsivonen> and I added KEYGEN to the same end tag whining as INPUT, though I'm not quite sure why
  136. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> heh
  137. # [14:14] <hsivonen> I've forgotten why the end tag whining differs from the spec. perhaps Hixie commented redundant cases out recently
  138. # [14:15] <hsivonen> now I need to make sure the newly-added keygen support doesn't crash Gecko
  139. # [14:16] <hsivonen> since form-associated elements assume things about Gecko's internal interfaces
  140. # [14:16] <hsivonen> looks like I already deal with the case gracefully
  141. # [14:17] <hsivonen> to avoid crashing on <output>
  142. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: other than in syntax/ and htmlparser/, is there anything else that needs to be changed to deal with keygen?
  143. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> I'll add some tests for it today or tomorrow
  144. # [14:26] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: for UI strings to work, the spec snapshot needs to be refreshed, which may break the spec scraper depending on what Hixie has done
  145. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> OK
  146. # [14:44] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 6796] New: in <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Apr/0073.html>
  147. # [14:45] <Philip> pimpbot: Why do you keep stripping things that look like HTML tags?
  148. # [14:45] <pimpbot> Philip: Huh?
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  150. # [15:13] * MikeSmith needs to fix pimpbot
  151. # [15:17] <Philip> pimpbot is actually pretty useful sometimes
  152. # [15:17] <pimpbot> Philip: Huh?
  153. # [15:21] <Julian> oh, the irony
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  157. # [17:24] * Topic is 'HTML WG 12 Mar http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JanMar/0041.html (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )'
  158. # [17:24] * Set by DanC on Thu Mar 12 17:00:49
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  161. # [17:52] <ChrisWilson> zakim, this will be html
  162. # [17:52] <Zakim> ok, ChrisWilson; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
  163. # [17:53] * ChrisWilson trots off to get another cup of coffee
  164. # [17:53] * smedero also fumbles around looking for a cup of coffee
  165. # [17:58] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  166. # [17:58] <Zakim> +??P0
  167. # [17:58] <Zakim> -??P0
  168. # [17:58] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  169. # [17:58] <Zakim> Attendees were
  170. # [17:58] <jgraham> That was quick
  171. # [17:59] * Joins: masinter (user@76.102.104.162)
  172. # [17:59] <ChrisWilson> zakim, this will be html
  173. # [17:59] <Zakim> ok, ChrisWilson; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
  174. # [18:00] <Philip> "Attendees were" is a very existential statement
  175. # [18:00] <ChrisWilson> heh
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  177. # [18:00] * rubys1 is now known as rubys
  178. # [18:01] <masinter> attendee implies attention
  179. # [18:01] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  180. # [18:01] <jgraham> Philip: Past tense though
  181. # [18:01] <Zakim> +smedero
  182. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
  183. # [18:01] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  184. # [18:01] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  185. # [18:01] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-html-wg-irc
  186. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +0049251280aaaa
  187. # [18:01] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  188. # [18:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  189. # [18:01] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
  190. # [18:01] <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
  191. # [18:01] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
  192. # [18:01] <trackbot> Date: 09 April 2009
  193. # [18:01] <Julian> Zakim, +0049251280aaaa is me
  194. # [18:01] <Zakim> +Julian; got it
  195. # [18:01] * Joins: aroben (aroben@17.246.18.94)
  196. # [18:01] <Zakim> +Sam
  197. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
  198. # [18:02] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  199. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Mike
  200. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Masinter
  201. # [18:02] <rubys> Zakim, pick a scribe
  202. # [18:02] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose smedero
  203. # [18:02] * Joins: aroben_ (aroben@17.203.12.32)
  204. # [18:02] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  205. # [18:02] <ChrisWilson> zakim, mi is me
  206. # [18:02] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
  207. # [18:02] <smedero> well, I did scribe recently!
  208. # [18:02] <smedero> heh
  209. # [18:03] <rubys> zakim, pick a scribe
  210. # [18:03] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Sam
  211. # [18:03] <rubys> zakim, pick a scribe
  212. # [18:03] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Sam
  213. # [18:03] * Julian can't scribe today, need to leave early
  214. # [18:03] <rubys> this is NOT working :-)
  215. # [18:03] <rubys> zakim, pick a scribe
  216. # [18:03] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ChrisWilson
  217. # [18:03] * ChrisWilson BASTARD!!!!
  218. # [18:03] <ChrisWilson> ok.
  219. # [18:03] <Zakim> +Matt_May
  220. # [18:04] <rubys> scribenick: ChrisWilson
  221. # [18:04] * Julian is almost in a long weekend
  222. # [18:04] * Quits: aroben (aroben@17.246.18.94) (Ping timeout)
  223. # [18:04] <rubys> zakim, who is on the call?
  224. # [18:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see smedero, Julian, Sam, ChrisWilson, Masinter, [Microsoft], Matt_May
  225. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute Mike
  226. # [18:04] <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I do not know which phone connection belongs to Mike
  227. # [18:05] <smedero> Zakim, mute smedero
  228. # [18:05] <Zakim> smedero should now be muted
  229. # [18:05] <ChrisWilson> sam: looks around for lachlan
  230. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> Zakim, Mike-Mobile has MikeSmith
  231. # [18:05] <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I do not recognize a party named 'Mike-Mobile'
  232. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  233. # [18:05] <Zakim> On the phone I see smedero (muted), Julian, Sam, ChrisWilson, Masinter, [Microsoft], Matt_May
  234. # [18:05] <ChrisWilson> action-115?
  235. # [18:05] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-115
  236. # [18:05] <trackbot> ACTION-115 -- Michael(tm) Smith to set up WBS for HTML WG participants to @@ reTPAC 2009 -- due 2009-04-07 -- OPEN
  237. # [18:05] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/115
  238. # [18:05] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-115 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  239. # [18:06] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52)
  240. # [18:06] <Julian> q+
  241. # [18:06] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  242. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  243. # [18:06] <ChrisWilson> Ms: didn't realize I had that, will need to move date out +1week
  244. # [18:06] <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
  245. # [18:06] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  246. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> trackbot, action-115 due next week
  247. # [18:06] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-115.
  248. # [18:06] <trackbot> ACTION-115 Set up WBS for HTML WG participants to @@ reTPAC 2009 due date now next week
  249. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  250. # [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see smedero (muted), Julian, Sam, ChrisWilson, Masinter, [Microsoft], Matt_May, [Apple]
  251. # [18:06] <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
  252. # [18:07] <rubys> ack, julian
  253. # [18:07] <ChrisWilson> ack julian
  254. # [18:07] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  255. # [18:07] * ChrisWilson missed julian's comment.
  256. # [18:08] <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
  257. # [18:08] <Julian> Regarding ACTION-103: followed up on the mailing list; J. Holsten promised a new draft soonish
  258. # [18:08] <ChrisWilson> action-105?
  259. # [18:08] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-105
  260. # [18:08] <trackbot> ACTION-105 -- Sam Ruby to should arrange a meeting between chairs of HTML WG and XHTML2 WG to ensure there is a plan for coordination of vocabularies to avoid incompatibilities. -- due 2009-04-09 -- OPEN
  261. # [18:08] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/105
  262. # [18:08] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-105 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  263. # [18:09] <Julian> on ACTION-103: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Apr/0088.html
  264. # [18:09] <pimpbot> Title: Re: Registering the about: URI scheme from Joseph A Holsten on 2009-04-03 (public-html@w3.org from April 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  265. # [18:09] <ChrisWilson> sam: I've met with Steven Pemberton and others at AC; have posted some outcomes from that discussion
  266. # [18:09] <masinter> emails didn't get linked to action item
  267. # [18:09] <ChrisWilson> sam: some idea that some extensibility capabilities would meet a lot of needs.
  268. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> action-105?
  269. # [18:09] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-105
  270. # [18:09] <trackbot> ACTION-105 -- Sam Ruby to should arrange a meeting between chairs of HTML WG and XHTML2 WG to ensure there is a plan for coordination of vocabularies to avoid incompatibilities. -- due 2009-04-09 -- OPEN
  271. # [18:09] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/105
  272. # [18:09] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-105 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  273. # [18:09] <ChrisWilson> Larry: would be useful if reports were linked to this action
  274. # [18:09] <ChrisWilson> sam: I'll do that.
  275. # [18:10] * shepazu Zakim, call shepazu
  276. # [18:10] * Zakim ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  277. # [18:10] <Zakim> +Shepazu
  278. # [18:10] <ChrisWilson> zakim, who is on the phone?
  279. # [18:10] <Zakim> On the phone I see smedero (muted), Julian, Sam, ChrisWilson, Masinter, [Microsoft], Matt_May, [Apple], Cynthia_Shelly, Shepazu (muted)
  280. # [18:10] <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
  281. # [18:10] <ChrisWilson> dsinger: I'm not confident that putting the two groups together in one room wouldn't cause chaos.
  282. # [18:11] <Julian> Zakim, who's making noise
  283. # [18:11] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's making noise', Julian
  284. # [18:11] <Julian> Zakim, who's making noise?
  285. # [18:11] * dsinger larrys is speaking and breaking up
  286. # [18:11] <Zakim> Julian, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Masinter (15%), [Apple] (34%), ChrisWilson (24%), Shepazu (9%)
  287. # [18:11] <ChrisWilson> larry: it's not clear to me that the current chaos is any worse than the chaos that would ensue
  288. # [18:11] <rubys> zakim, mute chriswilson
  289. # [18:11] <Zakim> ChrisWilson should now be muted
  290. # [18:11] <ChrisWilson> dsinger: I think it would be - both groups would come to a standstill
  291. # [18:12] * ChrisWilson weird - I'm muted on the phone, but I do appear to be causing the echo
  292. # [18:12] <masinter> divergence is distructive
  293. # [18:12] <ChrisWilson> sam: I think dsinger would like to hear confirmation that the XHTML2 group believes in the HTML design principles.
  294. # [18:12] <masinter> s/distruct/destruct/
  295. # [18:13] <ChrisWilson> sam: will take action to confirm that
  296. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> q+ to ask Sam whether he's heard feedback about merging HTMLWG+XHTML2WG from anybody other than Steven and IBM colleagues
  297. # [18:13] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  298. # [18:13] <Julian> q+
  299. # [18:13] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, Julian on the speaker queue
  300. # [18:13] <masinter> I agree that agreement on design principles is highly desirable
  301. # [18:13] <rubys> ack MikeSmith
  302. # [18:13] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to ask Sam whether he's heard feedback about merging HTMLWG+XHTML2WG from anybody other than Steven and IBM colleagues
  303. # [18:13] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  304. # [18:13] <Julian> q-
  305. # [18:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  306. # [18:13] <ChrisWilson> ack mike
  307. # [18:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  308. # [18:14] <ChrisWilson> sam: yes, I did talk to a number of people who were at the AC meeting, including several browser vendors and XHTML2 WG participants.
  309. # [18:14] <ChrisWilson> larry: there were ~20 people in the breakout room.
  310. # [18:15] <ChrisWilson> sam: obviously with the mail I sent yesterday, the discussion is now open to everyone (= the internets)
  311. # [18:15] * Julian looking for that email...
  312. # [18:16] <ChrisWilson> dsinger: you seem to be making progress, so I'm (hopeful? despite being skeptical?)
  313. # [18:16] <Julian> q+
  314. # [18:16] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  315. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
  316. # [18:16] <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I do not see a party named 'Mike'
  317. # [18:16] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
  318. # [18:16] <ChrisWilson> ack j
  319. # [18:16] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  320. # [18:16] * smedero notes that Julian is looking for this: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Apr/0130.html
  321. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
  322. # [18:16] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  323. # [18:16] <Zakim> +Mike
  324. # [18:16] <Julian> q-
  325. # [18:16] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  326. # [18:16] <ChrisWilson> julian: sam, where did you send that mail? (shawn answers^^)
  327. # [18:17] <ChrisWilson> zakim, mute mike
  328. # [18:17] <Zakim> Mike should now be muted
  329. # [18:17] * Julian thought there was a more concrete announcement
  330. # [18:17] <ChrisWilson> larry: i did have a comment - I'd like to distinguish between platform and language features a little better
  331. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  332. # [18:18] <Zakim> On the phone I see smedero (muted), Julian, Sam, Masinter, [Microsoft], Matt_May, [Apple], Cynthia_Shelly, Shepazu, Mike (muted)
  333. # [18:18] <ChrisWilson> larry: plugins are another way platform features get added
  334. # [18:18] <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
  335. # [18:18] <ChrisWilson> zakim, microsoft is me
  336. # [18:18] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
  337. # [18:18] <shepazu> [both platform and language features, actually]
  338. # [18:18] <ChrisWilson> larry: it may very well be there are some plugin features that become platform features over time; I don't think the architecture should exclude plugins as a way features get added.
  339. # [18:19] <ChrisWilson> sam, can you repeat that?
  340. # [18:19] <ChrisWilson> sam: is the idea of plugins something that should be factored into the design principles?
  341. # [18:19] <ChrisWilson> larry: most likely
  342. # [18:20] <ChrisWilson> larry: it isn't addressed in the current design principles, but I think it would be a good thing to add
  343. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
  344. # [18:20] <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
  345. # [18:20] <ChrisWilson> larry: your post currently only mentions browsers, but plugins add platform features too
  346. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute Mike
  347. # [18:20] <Zakim> Mike should no longer be muted
  348. # [18:21] <ChrisWilson> Mike: I don't agree at all that platform features are added via plugins.
  349. # [18:21] * Joins: Stevef (chatzilla@82.44.69.8)
  350. # [18:21] <ChrisWilson> mike: core platform features are not added by third-party plugins.
  351. # [18:21] <ChrisWilson> larry:never?
  352. # [18:22] <ChrisWilson> mike: never, by definition.
  353. # [18:22] <ChrisWilson> doug: what about SVG?
  354. # [18:22] <ChrisWilson> zakim, unmute me
  355. # [18:22] <Zakim> ChrisWilson was not muted, ChrisWilson
  356. # [18:22] <ChrisWilson> mike: there's an open standard for SVG, it's not
  357. # [18:23] <ChrisWilson> mike: "added" thru the plugin as a language feature, it's added because there's a standard
  358. # [18:23] * ChrisWilson wonders if someone else can scribe for a second so I can duck off and back on and have Zakim recognize me
  359. # [18:24] <ChrisWilson> mike: it's not under the control of the plugin whether it's a language feature or not.
  360. # [18:24] * ChrisWilson will be right back.
  361. # [18:24] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
  362. # [18:24] <shepazu> [I wonder if FF extensions could be considered a plugin for these purposes... I guess it depends on the extension]
  363. # [18:24] <rubys> Zakim, who is making noise?
  364. # [18:24] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  365. # [18:24] <ChrisWilson> zakim, microsoft is me
  366. # [18:24] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
  367. # [18:24] <Zakim> rubys, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Masinter (88%), Mike (29%)
  368. # [18:25] <ChrisWilson> larry: if it's a platform extension, it's okay only after it becomes a recommendation, not before?
  369. # [18:25] <rubys> Zakim, mute Mike
  370. # [18:25] <Zakim> Mike should now be muted
  371. # [18:26] <ChrisWilson> doug: take the example of PDF. It could easily be implemented by a browser. Would that be a platform feature [of HTML]?
  372. # [18:26] <ChrisWilson> doug: that seems like a political not a technical distinction
  373. # [18:26] <ChrisWilson> doug: not that I'm dissing the open web [ed: yeah right]
  374. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> I guess I don't see what it's useful for us to be trying to define what a "platform feature" is at all
  375. # [18:27] * ChrisWilson thinks the scribe gets to say what happened on the call. :)
  376. # [18:27] * ChrisWilson doug: praises IE's excellent implementation of all important standards.
  377. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> q+ to say let's avoid the problem by not using the term "platform feature" at all
  378. # [18:27] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  379. # [18:28] <dsinger> Hm, surely platform features are required browser behavior...there is UA behavior associated
  380. # [18:28] <dsinger> language features are things like tags you put in your document so that search engines index you better
  381. # [18:28] <ChrisWilson> larry: platform/language extensibility is a good idea; I was just saying it seems to be a legitimate way of extending the web
  382. # [18:29] <ChrisWilson> doug: I tend to agree with larry. If you're going to talk about extending the web in terms of features, what's the practical way of saying "plugins are okay"?
  383. # [18:30] <ChrisWilson> q+ to say I think the problem is in how "legitimate" we would be making the extensions done by plugins _to_the_core_language.
  384. # [18:30] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, ChrisWilson on the speaker queue
  385. # [18:30] <ChrisWilson> larry: if the web platform relies on plugins, breaking plugins would break the web.
  386. # [18:31] * ChrisWilson is really happy someone else brought up "breaking the web" for once.
  387. # [18:31] <dsinger> there is required browser behavior to enable plugins. the conformance stops at 'invoke the plugin if you have it'
  388. # [18:31] <MikeSmith> what dsinger said.
  389. # [18:31] <ChrisWilson> doug: I don't think anyone wants to break plugins - I like me some Flash games.
  390. # [18:32] <ChrisWilson> doug: adding new features to enable plugins might put more of a burden on the language, which may or may not be a good thing - at the very least, it's a different thing.
  391. # [18:32] * jgraham isn't really following but notes that htere are actually quite complex issues with plugins and parsing, scripting, etc.
  392. # [18:32] <ChrisWilson> larry: I wasn't suggesting that - just that new CSS, etc. functionality should take into account that plugins shouldn't get broken.
  393. # [18:32] * ChrisWilson notes there are a couple people on the queue
  394. # [18:32] * rubys notes that these types of notes aren't captured in the minutes
  395. # [18:33] * Julian wonders whether somebody could summarize the issue we're dicussing...
  396. # [18:33] <ChrisWilson> jgraham: notes that there are quite complex issues with plugins and parsing, scripting, etc.
  397. # [18:33] <smedero> q?
  398. # [18:33] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, ChrisWilson on the speaker queue
  399. # [18:33] * ChrisWilson julian : not and keep track of discussion at the same time
  400. # [18:33] <Julian> q+
  401. # [18:33] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, ChrisWilson, Julian on the speaker queue
  402. # [18:34] <ChrisWilson> doug: some of these issues are also appropriate when SVG is referenced, just due to browsing context.
  403. # [18:34] <ChrisWilson> larry: I'll raise an issue on this
  404. # [18:35] <Julian> q-
  405. # [18:35] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, ChrisWilson on the speaker queue
  406. # [18:35] * ChrisWilson hey, I've been typing like crazy! :)
  407. # [18:35] <rubys> ack MikeSmith
  408. # [18:35] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say let's avoid the problem by not using the term "platform feature" at all
  409. # [18:35] * Julian waits for Larry's summary
  410. # [18:35] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson on the speaker queue
  411. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
  412. # [18:35] <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
  413. # [18:35] * ChrisWilson doug: apologizes for rambling
  414. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute Mike
  415. # [18:35] <Zakim> Mike should no longer be muted
  416. # [18:36] <ChrisWilson> mike: larry and doug seem interested in this, so I would suggest they write up a spec for this.
  417. # [18:36] * shepazu @ChrisWilson, I didn't apologize, I just rambled
  418. # [18:36] * ChrisWilson shepazu: is unapologetic after all. :)
  419. # [18:36] <ChrisWilson> mike: maybe we shouldn't be trying to define what a platform feature is at all.
  420. # [18:37] <ChrisWilson> sam: at the AC mtg, there was some idea that the delta between SVG and, say, RDFa should be captured, because they're different (SVG requires browser impl)
  421. # [18:37] <masinter> SVG requires browser or browser plugin impl
  422. # [18:37] <rubys> ack ChrisWilson
  423. # [18:37] <Zakim> ChrisWilson, you wanted to say I think the problem is in how "legitimate" we would be making the extensions done by plugins _to_the_core_language.
  424. # [18:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  425. # [18:37] <ChrisWilson> sam: the language may not need to anoint RDFa, but probably does SVG.
  426. # [18:38] * Quits: Stevef (chatzilla@82.44.69.8) (Connection reset by peer)
  427. # [18:38] <shepazu> [RDFa doesn't *require* any extra browser support beyond putting them in the DOM, but it could benefit from it (if, for example, it takes the cure that an address is an address, and provides a map option, etc.)]
  428. # [18:38] <shepazu> s/cure/cue/
  429. # [18:39] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  430. # [18:39] <ChrisWilson> sam: anything else on this before we move on?
  431. # [18:40] <ChrisWilson> sam: last I'd heard, it was Rob Sayre's intent to include summary and profile
  432. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> shepazu, have not some suggestions about RDFa in text/html been predicated on having some form of namespace support in text/html parsers
  433. # [18:40] <shepazu> MikeSmith: that's true
  434. # [18:40] <shepazu> good point
  435. # [18:41] <ChrisWilson> sam: chris, care to say anything in advance of your one due next week on HTML extensibility?
  436. # [18:42] <Zakim> -Matt_May
  437. # [18:42] <Zakim> -smedero
  438. # [18:42] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  439. # [18:42] <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
  440. # [18:42] <Zakim> -Julian
  441. # [18:42] <Zakim> -Sam
  442. # [18:42] <Zakim> -Mike
  443. # [18:42] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52) (Quit: dsinger)
  444. # [18:42] <Zakim> -Shepazu
  445. # [18:42] <ChrisWilson> chris: just that I agree with your general sentiment that language extensibility is a good thing (based on our experience in IE), but core platform features should be in the language.
  446. # [18:42] <ChrisWilson> sam: with that, let's adjourn
  447. # [18:42] <smedero> rrsagent: draft minutes
  448. # [18:42] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html smedero
  449. # [18:43] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Connection reset by peer)
  450. # [18:43] <smedero> Chair: Sam Ruby
  451. # [18:43] <Zakim> -Masinter
  452. # [18:44] * Joins: adele (adele@17.246.18.119)
  453. # [18:44] <ChrisWilson> rrsagent, draft minutes
  454. # [18:44] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html ChrisWilson
  455. # [18:44] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 09 Apr 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  456. # [18:50] <smedero> s/plugin impl/plugin implementation/
  457. # [18:52] <smedero> s/Ms:/MikeSmith:/
  458. # [18:53] <Philip> (SVG doesn't necessarily require browser implementation - you could emulate much of it with script and <canvas> (which people have done already, to some extent), or lots and lots of coloured <div>s)
  459. # [18:54] <shepazu> Philip: or VML, which seems more common
  460. # [18:54] <shepazu> that is, SVG rendered in VML
  461. # [18:54] <Philip> Indeed
  462. # [18:55] * smedero unless anyone has other corrections, I'll probably just push these minutes out
  463. # [18:55] <Philip> so I still don't see a clear distinction between that and e.g. RDFa which can be emulated with scripts and current HTML parsers creating attributes with localNames like "xmlns:dc" and so on
  464. # [18:55] <smedero> rrsagent, draft minutes
  465. # [18:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html smedero
  466. # [18:55] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 09 Apr 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  467. # [18:56] <smedero> rrsagent, make log public
  468. # [18:56] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, smedero
  469. # [18:56] <smedero> ScribeOptions: -final
  470. # [18:57] <smedero> rrsagent, generate minutes
  471. # [18:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html smedero
  472. # [18:57] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 09 Apr 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  473. # [18:57] <smedero> ScribeOptions: -noEmbedDiagnostics
  474. # [18:57] <smedero> rrsagent, generate minutes
  475. # [18:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html smedero
  476. # [18:57] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 09 Apr 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  477. # [18:58] <smedero> rrsagent, bye
  478. # [18:58] <RRSAgent> I see no action items
  479. # [18:58] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  480. # [18:59] <smedero> the CSS naked day business is making it difficult to read comments on some blogs...
  481. # [19:00] <smedero> in particularly, on rubys blog... (due to the share number and it being a bit difficult to find the place where I left off)
  482. # [19:01] <Philip> I assume the point it's attempting to demonstrate (I'm not sure what it is but I assume there must be one) justifies the suffering and anguish caused to readers
  483. # [19:03] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
  484. # [19:03] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  485. # [19:03] <Zakim> Attendees were smedero, Julian, Sam, Mike, Masinter, ChrisWilson, Matt_May, dsinger, Cynthia_Shelly, Shepazu
  486. # [19:06] * Joins: jwatt (roslea@83.87.4.17)
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  510. # [21:05] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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  524. # Session Close: Fri Apr 10 00:00:00 2009

The end :)