/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-04-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 23 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:02] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609])
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  6. # [00:31] <pimpbot> changes: "W3C policy: fear of change, caution to the point of paralysis. Let's change the world, but without taking any risks! (whatwg r2973)" (5 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Apr/0094.html>
  7. # [00:56] <karl> strong statement
  8. # [01:03] <shepazu> karl, any idea what he's talking about?
  9. # [01:05] <Philip> shepazu: He changed the W3C version of the spec from being in HTML5 to being in HTML 4.0 Transitional
  10. # [01:05] <Hixie> shepazu: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2009Apr/0302.html
  11. # [01:05] <Philip> (See diff on http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/Overview.html )
  12. # [01:05] <pimpbot> Title: CVS log for html5/spec/Overview.html (at dev.w3.org)
  13. # [01:05] <shepazu> geez, talk about grandstanding...
  14. # [01:06] <karl> :)
  15. # [01:06] <shepazu> what a non-problem... don't we have something more important to deal with?
  16. # [01:06] * Philip likes how the W3C version of the spec consistently crashes Opera (9.6) when it's about a fifth of the way through loading
  17. # [01:07] <Hixie> shepazu: that was kinda my reaction (switching to html4 was 20 minutes of work)
  18. # [01:07] <Philip> (Seems to work fine in some old version of 10.0, though)
  19. # [01:08] <shepazu> great use of 20 minutes, Hixie... how else could you complain about the w3c's approved publishing formats, for a format that isn't even done yet
  20. # [01:09] * shepazu goes back to much more important things
  21. # [01:09] <karl> shepazu: :) yep. I think that's the good thing to do :)
  22. # [01:10] * Hixie went back to more important things long ago, that's why he didn't keep arguing the point and just made the change
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  32. # [04:56] <pimpbot> planet: 2009-04-22 Trunk builds <http://www.squarefree.com/burningedge/2009/04/22/2009-04-22-trunk-builds/>
  33. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=465007
  34. # [05:04] <pimpbot> Title: Bug 465007 Harmonize content sniffing in HTML 5 and Firefox (at bugzilla.mozilla.org)
  35. # [05:21] <MikeSmith> @changes
  36. # [05:21] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: "W3C policy: fear of change, caution to the point of paralysis. Let's change the world, but without taking any risks! (whatwg r2973)" (5 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Apr/0094.html> ** "pubrules fix" (5 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Apr/0089.html> ** editorial nits (17 more messages)
  37. # [06:12] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190)
  38. # [07:33] <pimpbot> changes: "pubrules fixes (whatwg r2974)" (5 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Apr/0099.html>
  39. # [07:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: If you are going with a Transitional doctype, could you please use one that doesn't trigger the quirks mode. think of all the copy&pasters
  40. # [07:38] <hsivonen> specifically, could you use <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
  41. # [07:42] <Hixie> hm, yeah
  42. # [07:50] <hsivonen> I think it's a bug in pubrules if they allow quicks-mode doctypes
  43. # [07:52] <MikeSmith> yeah
  44. # [07:52] <MikeSmith> though there are a number of bugs in pubrules that are higher on my list of things I'd rather see fixed before that
  45. # [08:04] * MikeSmith reads about HTML Validator extension for FF
  46. # [08:04] <MikeSmith> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/249
  47. # [08:05] <MikeSmith> "The SGML parser is the same program than the one running behind validator.w3.org."
  48. # [08:06] <MikeSmith> "The extension is based on Tidy and OpenSP (SGML Parser)"
  49. # [08:10] <MikeSmith> I guess the "validation locally on your machine, without sending HTML to a third party server" case is an important one to consider
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  54. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you know about http://code.google.com/p/jsrelaxngvalidator/ ?
  55. # [09:06] <pimpbot> Title: jsrelaxngvalidator - Google Code (at code.google.com)
  56. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> "A javascript RelaxNG validator"
  57. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> http://debeissat.nicolas.free.fr/relaxng.php
  58. # [09:07] <pimpbot> Title: RelaxNG Validator in Javascript (at debeissat.nicolas.free.fr)
  59. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> hmm, that demo page doesn't actually seem to work at all
  60. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> oh, I guess it just takes a long time
  61. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> a long, long time
  62. # [09:11] <gsnedders> Javascript blatantly isn't quick enough
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  64. # [09:13] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I was unaware. thanks
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  67. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: my Minefield with HTML5 parser is not rendering any of HTML files in http://dev.w3.org/html5/tests/validation/full/invalid/unknown-attribute/
  68. # [09:36] <pimpbot> Title: Index of /html5/tests/validation/full/invalid/unknown-attribute (at dev.w3.org)
  69. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> e.g.,
  70. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/tests/validation/full/invalid/unknown-attribute/ins.html
  71. # [09:37] <pimpbot> Title: element ins with invalid attribute (at dev.w3.org)
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  78. # [10:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: interesting
  79. # [10:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it is also failing some very simple baseline sanity Mozilla reftests
  80. # [10:11] <hsivonen> perhaps there's an issue with too small files?
  81. # [10:11] <hsivonen> need to investigate
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  83. # [10:33] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: seems to be consistent, at least :)
  84. # [10:33] <MikeSmith> I mean for all those files
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  92. # [11:08] <billyjackass> hsivonen: yeah, magic number seems to be 512 bytes
  93. # [11:08] <billyjackass> not unsurprisingly
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  103. # [12:12] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks!
  104. # [12:13] <MikeSmith> np
  105. # [12:13] * MikeSmith pats himself for accidental foresight of limiting himself to writing only stupidly simple test cases
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  117. # [14:16] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: It's a bit scary that I managed to dogfood HTML5 parsing for nearly two weeks while the case of file under 512 bytes with no encoding declaration was completely, utterly broken
  118. # [14:19] <jgraham> hsivonen: Don't you get test results from the try servers? Or are you ignoring thm because there is too much noise?
  119. # [14:20] <hsivonen> jgraham: I was aware that all wasn't well with tryserver tests but I had no idea what the problem was and all my real browsing worked fine...
  120. # [14:20] <hsivonen> apparently, the real world is over 512 bytes or has a declared charset
  121. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: right
  122. # [14:21] <MikeSmith> I don't think files with under 512 bytes are typical
  123. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> anyway, I have a natural talent for breaking stuff without even trying
  124. # [14:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks for finding this.
  125. # [14:25] <hsivonen> of course, all the usual small test case runs happen though Hixie's live dom viewer, which runs through different IO code
  126. # [14:25] <hsivonen> since the input is UTF-16 string rather than a byte stream
  127. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thank you for making it possible to do real-world testing with an HTML5 parser in an actual browser
  128. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> I'm somebody else would have found that bug relatively soon too anyway
  129. # [14:28] <jgraham> This channel has become very mutually congratulatory all of a sudden :)
  130. # [14:29] <MikeSmith> jgraham: true. very astute observation on your part!
  131. # [14:29] <MikeSmith> we clearly need some more acrimony here
  132. # [14:33] <jgraham> Hey laser lips! Your mother was a snow blower!
  133. # [14:36] * jgraham is clearly regressing to his childhood
  134. # [14:36] <hsivonen> when did Hixie first put the parsing algorithm in the spec?
  135. # [14:37] * Philip is too polite to know any insults other than the ones he learned from Monkey Island games
  136. # [14:39] <Philip> hsivonen: There was a parsing algorithm in r1 from SVN
  137. # [14:39] <hsivonen> Philip: thanks
  138. # [14:39] <Philip> which was 2006-03-02
  139. # [14:40] <jgraham> I think Hixie said that the parsing bit wasn't started untill 2006
  140. # [14:41] <jgraham> On 5/11/2005 he said "The HTML5 parsing section will cover this in detail"
  141. # [14:41] <Philip> r1 says "TIMELINE: january, february - parsing ..."
  142. # [14:59] <pimpbot> planet: More Web Workers in Action <http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ajaxian/~3/Y4qbVp0xqOs/more-web-workers-in-action>
  143. # [15:09] <hsivonen> anyone got a timeline for Opera's <p><table> behavior?
  144. # [15:14] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30)
  145. # [15:18] <Philip> hsivonen: It was apparently fixed in "build 7586", around 2005-05-09
  146. # [15:19] <Philip> which http://snapshot.opera.com/windows/ seems to indicate was just before Opera 8.01
  147. # [15:19] <pimpbot> Title: Opera for Windows - Previews and Betas (at snapshot.opera.com)
  148. # [15:19] <hsivonen> Philip: thanks
  149. # [15:19] <Philip> hsivonen: (but I haven't tested it myself)
  150. # [15:20] <hsivonen> Philip: what's your source?
  151. # [15:20] <Philip> hsivonen: The Opera bug database
  152. # [15:20] <hsivonen> Philip: thanks
  153. # [15:21] <hsivonen> Philip: do you work for Opera now?
  154. # [15:21] <Philip> hsivonen: No
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  156. # [15:44] <hsivonen> ok. blogged: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/last-html-quirk/
  157. # [15:44] <pimpbot> Title: The Last of the Parsing Quirks (at hsivonen.iki.fi)
  158. # [15:46] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: great title
  159. # [15:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, your site has a really interesting way of progressively rendering in Webkit
  160. # [15:48] * myakura sees underlines
  161. # [15:48] * myakura has got the content :)
  162. # [15:49] <hsivonen> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=25207 is still UNCONFIRMED
  163. # [15:49] <pimpbot> Title: Bug 25207 - Text not visible while extenal font downloading (at bugs.webkit.org)
  164. # [15:51] * Joins: smedero (smedero@66.114.145.154)
  165. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> http://ajaxian.com/archives/mypatterns-xslt-regex-for-js-objects
  166. # [15:52] <pimpbot> Title: Ajaxian myPatterns: XSLT / RegEx for JS Objects (at ajaxian.com)
  167. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> I'm baffled by that title
  168. # [15:54] <Philip> Looks like pattern matching from functional programming languages
  169. # [15:54] <Philip> (but without the strong typing)
  170. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> http://mypatterns.free.fr/more.html explains a little more
  171. # [15:55] <pimpbot> Title: more on custom notations (at mypatterns.free.fr)
  172. # [15:57] * Philip has written fun pattern-matching code like "match (state.c0, state.currentToken) with Some c, Some (TagToken ({ attributes = (an, av)::attrs } as t)) -> { state with currentToken = Some (TagToken { t with attributes = (c::an, av)::attrs }) } | _ -> raise BrokenAlgorithm"
  173. # [15:59] <Philip> The destructuring assignment in JavaScript 1.6(? or 1.7 or something?) is basically the same thing
  174. # [15:59] <Philip> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/New_in_JavaScript_1.7#Destructuring_assignment
  175. # [15:59] <pimpbot> Title: New in JavaScript 1.7 - MDC (at developer.mozilla.org)
  176. # [16:00] <Philip> Actually that's pretty much exactly what myPatterns is doing, it looks like
  177. # [16:00] <Philip> "for each (let {name: n, family: { father: f } } in people) { document.write ("Name: " + n + ", Father: " + f + "<br>\n"); } " etc
  178. # [16:01] <MikeSmith> interesting
  179. # [16:18] <Philip> hsivonen: http://philip.html5.org/misc/p-table-ie1.png might be better evidence for IE's behaviour than the IRC logs
  180. # [16:18] <Philip> Also it provides an opportunity to marvel at the UI design
  181. # [16:19] <Philip> Oh, there's an address bar but it's disabled by default
  182. # [16:22] * Philip updates the screenshot
  183. # [16:23] <Philip> (Those are not genuine Win95 window decorations)
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  190. # [17:00] <pimpbot> planet: <div>The Last of the Parsing Quirks</div> <http://hsivonen.iki.fi/last-html-quirk/>
  191. # [17:02] * rubys changes topic to 'HTML WG 23 Apr http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009AprJun/0008.html (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )'
  192. # [17:05] <Philip> rubys: Hmm, that message says "from 17:00Z to 18:00Z", but it links to a page showing "16:00:00 UTC" instead
  193. # [17:06] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.136.52.180)
  194. # [17:09] <rubys> Sigh.... I copied that from Chris Wilson's last week, and didn't catch that.
  195. # [17:10] <anne> to be clear, it's in an hour right?
  196. # [17:11] <rubys> T-52 minutes
  197. # [17:12] <Philip> We should abolish absolute time, and refer to everything relatively
  198. # [17:13] <rubys> That would wreck havoc with the HTML5 specification of the <time> element.
  199. # [17:14] <Philip> When I see an email saying "the meeting is in 23h30m", and my mail client says the mail was sent "22h41m ago", it's trivial to work out when it's going to be, and there's none of this messing around with timezones
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  209. # [17:56] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  210. # [17:56] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-html-wg-irc
  211. # [17:57] <rubys> zakim, this will be html
  212. # [17:57] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  213. # [17:58] <rubys> zakim, this will be html
  214. # [17:58] <Zakim> rubys, Team_(xhtml)12:00Z is already associated with an irc channel; use 'move html to here' if you mean to reassociate the channel
  215. # [17:58] * rubys wtf?
  216. # [17:58] <annevk> Zakim, this is htmlwg
  217. # [17:58] <Zakim> sorry, annevk, I do not see a conference named 'htmlwg' in progress or scheduled at this time
  218. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
  219. # [17:59] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  220. # [17:59] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
  221. # [17:59] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  222. # [17:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  223. # [17:59] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
  224. # [17:59] <Zakim> trackbot, Team_(xhtml)12:00Z is already associated with an irc channel; use 'move HTML to here' if you mean to reassociate the channel
  225. # [17:59] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
  226. # [17:59] <trackbot> Date: 23 April 2009
  227. # [18:00] <annevk> Zakim, this is html-wg
  228. # [18:00] <Zakim> sorry, annevk, I do not see a conference named 'html-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time
  229. # [18:00] <pimpbot> planet: WebKit's week - #8 <http://hanblog.info/blog/post/2009/04/23/WebKit-s-week-8>
  230. # [18:00] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190)
  231. # [18:00] * rubys is really tempted to "move HTML to here" :-)
  232. # [18:00] <annevk> Zakim, this is HTML_WG
  233. # [18:00] <Zakim> ok, annevk; that matches HTML_WG()12:00PM
  234. # [18:00] <Zakim> + +1.218.349.aaaa - is perhaps Laura_Carlson?
  235. # [18:01] <annevk> Zakim, passcode?
  236. # [18:01] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), annevk
  237. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Sam
  238. # [18:02] <Zakim> +??P9
  239. # [18:02] <annevk> Zakim, ??P9 is me
  240. # [18:02] <Zakim> +annevk; got it
  241. # [18:03] * Joins: masinter (user@192.150.10.200)
  242. # [18:03] * ChrisWilson will be a couple of minutes late
  243. # [18:04] <rubys> zakim, who is on the call?
  244. # [18:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see Laura_Carlson?, Sam, annevk
  245. # [18:05] * masinter will be a couple of minutes late too
  246. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
  247. # [18:05] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  248. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Mike
  249. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  250. # [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see Laura_Carlson?, Sam, annevk, Mike
  251. # [18:07] <rubys> lets give it 2 more minutes, then cover what we can with the people we have, and then call it a week. Agreed?
  252. # [18:07] * shepazu Zakim, call shepazu
  253. # [18:07] * Zakim ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  254. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Shepazu
  255. # [18:08] <annevk> rubys, sounds fine
  256. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> rubys: yeah
  257. # [18:08] * annevk currently hears a bunch of beeps
  258. # [18:08] <Zakim> + +47.22.60.aabb
  259. # [18:08] <masinter> i can partcipate via IRC but can't dial in at the moment, sorry
  260. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> masinter, it will likely be a relatively short call
  261. # [18:09] <annevk> Zakim, who is on the call?
  262. # [18:09] <Zakim> On the phone I see Laura_Carlson?, Sam, annevk, Mike, Shepazu, +47.22.60.aabb
  263. # [18:10] <annevk> Zakim, aabb is Leif
  264. # [18:10] <Zakim> +Leif; got it
  265. # [18:10] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  266. # [18:10] <ChrisWilson> zakim, microsoft is me
  267. # [18:10] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
  268. # [18:10] <masinter> I had an action item which I can report on; TAG discussion on versioning will continue today.
  269. # [18:10] <rubys> zakim, pick a scribe
  270. # [18:10] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose annevk
  271. # [18:10] <annevk> Zakim, Laura_Carlson? is Laura
  272. # [18:10] <Zakim> +Laura; got it
  273. # [18:10] <annevk> scribe: annevk
  274. # [18:11] <Zakim> + +1.484.802.aacc
  275. # [18:11] <rubys> zakim, who is making noise?
  276. # [18:11] <smedero> Zakim, +1.484.802.aacc is me
  277. # [18:11] <Zakim> +smedero; got it
  278. # [18:11] <Zakim> rubys, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sam (4%), annevk (12%)
  279. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute Mike
  280. # [18:11] <Zakim> Mike should now be muted
  281. # [18:11] * annevk mutes himself locally
  282. # [18:11] <smedero> Zakim, mute smedero
  283. # [18:11] <Zakim> smedero should now be muted
  284. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> action-103?
  285. # [18:11] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-103
  286. # [18:11] <trackbot> ACTION-103 -- Lachlan Hunt to register about: URI scheme -- due 2009-04-09 -- OPEN
  287. # [18:11] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/103
  288. # [18:11] <annevk> ISSUE-54?
  289. # [18:11] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-54
  290. # [18:11] <trackbot> ISSUE-54 -- tools that can't generate <!DOCTYPE html> -- OPEN
  291. # [18:11] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/54
  292. # [18:11] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-103 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  293. # [18:11] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-54 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  294. # [18:12] <annevk> SR: What is the status of Lachy on this action?
  295. # [18:12] <annevk> AvK: I think he is waiting for the other editor to move ahead (re about URLs)
  296. # [18:12] <annevk> SR: If we page down we see that more actions are assigned to Lachy
  297. # [18:13] <annevk> AvK: dunno about those
  298. # [18:13] <smedero> Looks like joseph hasn't committed a change to the spec since early April: http://github.com/josephholsten/about-uri-scheme/commits/master/
  299. # [18:13] <pimpbot> Title: Commit History for josephholsten's about-uri-scheme - GitHub (at github.com)
  300. # [18:13] <annevk> ISSUE-56?
  301. # [18:13] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-56
  302. # [18:13] <trackbot> ISSUE-56 -- Assess whether "URLs" section/definition conflicts with Web architecture -- OPEN
  303. # [18:13] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/56
  304. # [18:13] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-56 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  305. # [18:13] <annevk> ISSUE-4?
  306. # [18:13] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-4
  307. # [18:13] <trackbot> ISSUE-4 -- HTML Versioning and DOCTYPEs -- OPEN
  308. # [18:13] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/4
  309. # [18:13] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-4 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  310. # [18:13] <rubys> larry, care to comment?
  311. # [18:13] <annevk> DanC, any updates?
  312. # [18:13] <masinter> the TAG discussed versioning last week, and is scheduled again today
  313. # [18:13] * Quits: pimpbot (pimpbot@80.68.92.65) (Client exited)
  314. # [18:14] <rubys> anything else worth reporting on the subject this week?
  315. # [18:14] <masinter> email threads on www-tag, i think the discussion so far looks like it will be productive
  316. # [18:15] <annevk> ISSUE-59?
  317. # [18:15] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-59
  318. # [18:15] <trackbot> ISSUE-59 -- Should the HTML WG produce a separate document that is a normative language reference and if so what are the requirements -- OPEN
  319. # [18:15] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/59
  320. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
  321. # [18:15] <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
  322. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute Mike
  323. # [18:15] <Zakim> Mike should no longer be muted
  324. # [18:15] <annevk> Zakim, Mike is MikeSmith
  325. # [18:15] <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
  326. # [18:15] <annevk> MS: The actions are still not completed
  327. # [18:16] <annevk> SR: New target?
  328. # [18:16] <annevk> MS: One week from now
  329. # [18:16] <annevk> SR: Ok
  330. # [18:16] <annevk> MS: Next week's call
  331. # [18:16] <masinter> I am out next week, unfortunately
  332. # [18:16] <annevk> ACTION-119?
  333. # [18:16] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-119
  334. # [18:16] <trackbot> ACTION-119 -- Michael(tm) Smith to push HTML diffs document and HTML5 out for another public draft -- due 2009-04-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  335. # [18:16] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/119
  336. # [18:17] <Zakim> +Julian
  337. # [18:17] <annevk> MS: I moved it to PENDINGREVIEW since they have now been published; that's done
  338. # [18:17] <annevk> SR: sounds good
  339. # [18:17] <annevk> SR: I think that's it for the action items that are due. Did I miss any?
  340. # [18:17] <annevk> [silence]
  341. # [18:17] <Zakim> +Masinter
  342. # [18:17] <annevk> SR: Towards the end of my agenda I listed an outlook to the future. Comments?
  343. # [18:18] <masinter> i'm finally on the phone if there was anything i missed
  344. # [18:18] * shepazu zakim, who is noisy?
  345. # [18:18] * Zakim shepazu, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Masinter (34%)
  346. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make inutes
  347. # [18:18] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make inutes', MikeSmith. Try /msg RRSAgent help
  348. # [18:18] <masinter> the schedule is aggressive
  349. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  350. # [18:18] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  351. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute Mike
  352. # [18:18] <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
  353. # [18:18] <annevk> LM: the schedule is aggressive
  354. # [18:19] <annevk> CW: although the schedule is aggressive the actions it forces us into I'm in favor of
  355. # [18:19] <annevk> CW: it forces us into the prioritarization exercise
  356. # [18:19] <annevk> LM: there was a question for me earlier that I wanted to address
  357. # [18:20] * Joins: LHSilli (chatzilla@84.208.110.159)
  358. # [18:20] <annevk> LM: the TAG discussion is continuing and I'm open to questions
  359. # [18:20] <annevk> Zakim, Leif is LHSilli
  360. # [18:20] <Zakim> +LHSilli; got it
  361. # [18:20] <annevk> DS: Are you guys looking into tests? It's not necessary for LC but it's worthwhile to have them.
  362. # [18:20] <annevk> SR: Any volunteers?
  363. # [18:21] <annevk> CW: Are you asking for a person to organize the test suite or writing the tests?
  364. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> takkaria volunteered to take the lead on managing the test suite
  365. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> dunno if he still has time to do that or not
  366. # [18:21] <annevk> SR: Either works fine. I'm personally in favor of not doing anything that's not required for which there are no volunteers.
  367. # [18:22] <annevk> DS: [...] for which there is a place or framework?
  368. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make logs public
  369. # [18:22] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, MikeSmith
  370. # [18:22] <annevk> CW: at some point we need a framework; not a bunch of tests floating around the interwebs
  371. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> takkaria = Andi Sidwell
  372. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute Mike
  373. # [18:22] <Zakim> MikeSmith should no longer be muted
  374. # [18:22] <annevk> CW: we had a person appointed but he was going to be unavailable for a couple of months?
  375. # [18:22] <annevk> DS: can we create an issue for this?
  376. # [18:22] <annevk> MS: he hasn't been around much on IRC so I'm sceptic
  377. # [18:23] <Philip> takkaria stated (some time ago) that he wouldn't have time in the near future for HTML stuff
  378. # [18:23] <Philip> (Stated in this channel, in particular)
  379. # [18:23] <annevk> MS: there was nobody making decisions on frameworks and doing the tests
  380. # [18:23] <Philip> and that it would be sensible to look for someone else to do the test stuff
  381. # [18:23] <annevk> MS: So I asked takkaria to take the responsbility to decide all the basics so we could get started
  382. # [18:24] <annevk> AvK: Andi had indeed said on IRC recently that he doesn't have enough time
  383. # [18:24] <annevk> SR: I commend his honesty
  384. # [18:25] <Philip> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20090216#l-267
  385. # [18:25] <annevk> SR: do you still think it's useful to have an action DS?
  386. # [18:25] <Philip> # [20:33] <takkaria> news on the testsuite front:
  387. # [18:25] <Philip> # [20:34] <takkaria> I'm afraid I'm not going to have time to do anything with it for a while, so someone else is best taking iton
  388. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> Chair: SamRuby
  389. # [18:25] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.29.116.63) (Quit: Leaving...)
  390. # [18:25] <annevk> DS: I don't have enough time.
  391. # [18:25] <annevk> DS: [missed]
  392. # [18:25] <annevk> SR: I hear interest from CW?
  393. # [18:25] <annevk> CW: I'm certainly passionate about tests.
  394. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  395. # [18:25] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  396. # [18:26] <annevk> SR: would it be sensible to have a repository where people can throw things in?
  397. # [18:26] <annevk> CW: we can start there
  398. # [18:26] <annevk> CW: getting the tests reviewed is hard
  399. # [18:26] <Philip> There's a CVS repository set up for tests, but people were having ideas that it'd be better to put them on Git/Mercurial
  400. # [18:26] <annevk> CW: we need to track whether tests have been reviewed
  401. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> q+ to say that we do not want to begin storing test cases without having them reviewed
  402. # [18:26] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  403. # [18:27] <annevk> CW: AvK you are actually in the CSS WG talking about this right now
  404. # [18:27] <annevk> [I am, yes. It's slightly painful :) ]
  405. # [18:27] <annevk> DS: There already is a test repository right?
  406. # [18:27] <smedero> I thought there were also issues with the software licenses that could be used for a test
  407. # [18:27] <annevk> MS: yes, fairly trivial
  408. # [18:27] <annevk> DS: we can create a tracker product
  409. # [18:27] <annevk> DS: we can argue about the best way of doing it or we can do something with what we have right now
  410. # [18:28] <annevk> DS: use the review process that we have used for SVG
  411. # [18:28] <annevk> DS: not ideal, but it's a start; can see what needs changing for HTML
  412. # [18:28] <Philip> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Testsuite has some test-related thoughts and links
  413. # [18:28] <annevk> DS: if I have a body of 10-20 tests I volunteer to start; just to get the ball rolling
  414. # [18:28] <annevk> DS: put together a review process, test repository
  415. # [18:29] <annevk> CW: Adrien pointed out some tests recently on local storage and cross-document messaging
  416. # [18:29] <smedero> http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/html5.htm
  417. # [18:29] <annevk> CW: they are offered under a license that allows you to do whatever you want (same as CSS)
  418. # [18:29] <smedero> Sees DOM Storage and XDM test on that site
  419. # [18:29] <masinter> maybe there's some cross-group test?
  420. # [18:30] <Philip> I think Web Storage is now meant to be handled by the WebApps WG?
  421. # [18:30] <smedero> There's also ARIA test from Microsoft here: http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/aria.htm
  422. # [18:30] <smedero> dunno if there's any cross-over....
  423. # [18:30] <annevk> [Scribe misses some discussion here from DS, LM, and CW.]
  424. # [18:31] * shepazu notes that Larry missed SVG :)
  425. # [18:31] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.136.52.180) (Ping timeout)
  426. # [18:31] <annevk> LM: Need some coordination maybe. Some tests go beyond the boundary of WGs.
  427. # [18:31] <annevk> CW: starting with unit testing would be a good idea
  428. # [18:31] * ChrisWilson has to mute for a minute...
  429. # [18:31] <annevk> DS: absolutely, but you have to start somewhere
  430. # [18:32] <annevk> DS: start something up, transform it later
  431. # [18:32] <annevk> LM: not so much boundaries, but layers
  432. # [18:32] <annevk> LM: CSS on top of HTML
  433. # [18:32] <annevk> DS: I meant boundaries between technologies
  434. # [18:32] <Philip> (I think http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Testsuite#Existing_tests is a fairly complete list of current tests for HTML5)
  435. # [18:32] <annevk> [obviously that part isn't minuted in full detail either]
  436. # [18:33] <masinter> q+
  437. # [18:33] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, masinter on the speaker queue
  438. # [18:33] <annevk> DS: I'll take an action item on this to be done in two weeks, but I won't be here in two weeks.
  439. # [18:33] <annevk> DS: you can still discuss it because it'll be done
  440. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> q?
  441. # [18:33] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, masinter on the speaker queue
  442. # [18:33] <rubys> ack MikeSmith
  443. # [18:33] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say that we do not want to begin storing test cases without having them reviewed
  444. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> ack MikeSmith
  445. # [18:33] * Zakim sees masinter on the speaker queue
  446. # [18:33] * Zakim sees masinter on the speaker queue
  447. # [18:34] <annevk> MS: I just wanted to say that we don't want to check in testcases without proper review.
  448. # [18:34] <annevk> MS: It's one thing to take a suite from Microsoft versus taking tests from anyone.
  449. # [18:34] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.136.52.180)
  450. # [18:34] <annevk> SR: Maybe have a unreviewed folder for those?
  451. # [18:34] <Philip> MikeSmith, on the other hand it's easier to develop and start reviewing test cases when they're organised in a centralised repository
  452. # [18:35] <annevk> MS: I'd rather have links to remote tests so authors can update the tests independently.
  453. # [18:35] <annevk> MS: We have that for validator.nu too.
  454. # [18:35] <annevk> MS: Simple JSON structure that points to the various external tests.
  455. # [18:35] * Philip wonders why the authors wouldn't just be given write access to the repository
  456. # [18:36] <annevk> MS: Just have a dump of tests without the person feeling responsible for fixing them is not too useful.
  457. # [18:36] <Philip> External tests turn into 404s over time, which doesn't sound good
  458. # [18:36] <annevk> DS: while I agree with you in principle. I'm not sure I want to sovle a problem we don't know the bounds of
  459. # [18:37] <annevk> MS: fine with me. I'm just talking out of my [missed] here. I just want a person that feels responsible and sets it up.
  460. # [18:37] <annevk> DS: I think we need a team.
  461. # [18:37] <annevk> MS: that's fairly hypothetical.
  462. # [18:37] * Julian gets interested
  463. # [18:37] <annevk> DS: I will email saying that this is important. And promise them cookies and beer.
  464. # [18:38] <MikeSmith> q?
  465. # [18:38] * Zakim sees masinter on the speaker queue
  466. # [18:38] <annevk> MS: We don't need the first in line. We need someone that is comitted.
  467. # [18:38] <annevk> DS: Maybe someone from the browsers?
  468. # [18:38] <rubys> ack masinter
  469. # [18:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  470. # [18:39] * annevk wonders how that flies with the vast browser conspiracy theorists
  471. # [18:39] <annevk> LM: We're trying to get together the plug-in community and figure out if we can improve things.
  472. # [18:39] <shepazu> q+
  473. # [18:39] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
  474. # [18:40] <annevk> LM: I'm soliciting folks who are interested in persuing this.
  475. # [18:40] <annevk> LM: and also [missed]
  476. # [18:40] <masinter> also thoughts on venue, is this in scope?
  477. # [18:41] <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/integration/SVGIntegration.html and http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/ref/SVGRef.html
  478. # [18:41] <annevk> DS: LM I don't know if this is what you had in mind, but the links above are what the SVG WG is working on and I think there is some overlap
  479. # [18:41] <ChrisWilson> I just fwded the info on our test cases to Doug...
  480. # [18:41] <annevk> DS: with plug-ins. The first link is how SVG can be integrated by reference.
  481. # [18:42] <annevk> DS: If SVG is included as image or CSS background, etc.
  482. # [18:42] <annevk> DS: the second spec talks about having the parameters exposed on the Window interface of the embedded object
  483. # [18:42] <annevk> DS: a lot of this stuff is solved for e.g. Flash
  484. # [18:43] <annevk> LM: We talked to the people who did the Adobe Flash, Adobe Reader plug-ins. We also want to talk to people who do e.g. Java.
  485. # [18:43] <annevk> LM: requirements such as making the back button work. Cross-domain security policies.
  486. # [18:43] <takkaria> whoever looks at tests might want to look at http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Testsuite which I put together a few months ago
  487. # [18:44] <annevk> DS: It would be interesting to see what issues you are facing
  488. # [18:44] <annevk> LM: I have a priliminary doc
  489. # [18:44] <annevk> AvK: how this affect HTML?
  490. # [18:44] <takkaria> oh, ignore me, Philip already linked it. my bad
  491. # [18:44] <annevk> LM: new HTML features should work with existing content
  492. # [18:44] <smedero> s/how this/how does this/
  493. # [18:45] <annevk> LM: existing content uses plug-ins; so new features need to interact with plug-ins
  494. # [18:45] * Philip already linked to it twice :-)
  495. # [18:45] * Philip thinks more links are always good to reduce the chance that people missed it, though
  496. # [18:45] * annevk isn't sure this is relevant to work on HTML
  497. # [18:45] * annevk plug-ins are <embed> / <object>
  498. # [18:46] <Julian> q+
  499. # [18:46] * Zakim sees shepazu, Julian on the speaker queue
  500. # [18:46] <annevk> SR: anything else?
  501. # [18:46] * shepazu wants a pony
  502. # [18:46] <shepazu> q-
  503. # [18:46] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  504. # [18:46] <rubys> ack julian
  505. # [18:46] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  506. # [18:46] * ChrisWilson NEEEEEEEIIIIIIIIGGGH!
  507. # [18:46] <annevk> JR: I was looking at the @profile issue.
  508. # [18:46] <annevk> JR: If nothing is done will it be gone from HTML5?
  509. # [18:46] <annevk> SR: Yes.
  510. # [18:46] <annevk> JR: What will be needed for this not to happen?
  511. # [18:46] * ChrisWilson pictures a pony with "SVG in IE" painted on the side, just for @shepazu
  512. # [18:47] * shepazu lol
  513. # [18:47] <annevk> JR: [something about a bug]
  514. # [18:47] * shepazu tilts at windmills
  515. # [18:47] <annevk> JR: I'd be in favor of an erratum for HTML4 and a similar fix for HTML5
  516. # [18:48] <annevk> SR: If there is consensus for a change I'd be in favor, but I'm not sure if there is
  517. # [18:48] <Laura> q
  518. # [18:48] <annevk> SR: Anything else?
  519. # [18:48] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.207.11) (Ping timeout)
  520. # [18:48] <annevk> LC: does the same hold true for the summary attribute?
  521. # [18:49] <annevk> SR: yes
  522. # [18:49] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.207.11)
  523. # [18:49] * ChrisWilson starts singing "What Do You Want Of Me"
  524. # [18:49] * shepazu backs away slowly....
  525. # [18:49] * ChrisWilson encores with "Impossible Dream (The Quest)"
  526. # [18:49] <annevk> SR: the deadline is not next week, but if something needs to be done we do need consensus
  527. # [18:49] <annevk> SR: anything else?
  528. # [18:49] <annevk> SR: ok, adjourned
  529. # [18:49] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
  530. # [18:49] * masinter wishes IRC log wasn't filled with irreverent chatter
  531. # [18:49] <Zakim> -Sam
  532. # [18:49] * ChrisWilson run, don't walk
  533. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
  534. # [18:49] <Zakim> MikeSmith is being disconnected
  535. # [18:49] <Zakim> -MikeSmith
  536. # [18:49] * annevk will not scribe next week
  537. # [18:49] <Zakim> -smedero
  538. # [18:49] <Zakim> -annevk
  539. # [18:49] <Zakim> -Laura
  540. # [18:50] <Zakim> -Julian
  541. # [18:50] <Zakim> -Masinter
  542. # [18:50] <Zakim> -LHSilli
  543. # [18:50] <Zakim> -Shepazu
  544. # [18:50] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  545. # [18:50] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.218.349.aaaa, Sam, annevk, Shepazu, +47.22.60.aabb, ChrisWilson, Laura, smedero, MikeSmith, Julian, Masinter, LHSilli
  546. # [18:50] * ChrisWilson larry, that's why we do it in slash-mes. They don't show up in log.
  547. # [18:50] * shepazu @masinter it won't be captured in the minutes
  548. # [18:50] * ChrisWilson trust me, if it were a real back-channel you'd see what "irreverant" meant. If past experience is any indication. :)
  549. # [18:51] * Quits: rubys (rubys@75.182.92.38) (Quit: Leaving.)
  550. # [18:51] * Joins: adele (adele@24.7.123.50)
  551. # [18:51] <annevk> masinter, the generated minutes exclude /me lines
  552. # [18:51] <annevk> RRSAgent, make minutes
  553. # [18:51] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html annevk
  554. # [18:51] <annevk> RRSAgent, make logs public
  555. # [18:51] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, annevk
  556. # [18:51] * annevk wonders if someone can fix the defaults
  557. # [18:52] <smedero> Regrets+ DaveSinger
  558. # [18:52] <annevk> someone should prolly fix the minutes up a bit if we think they're useful
  559. # [18:52] <annevk> e.g. introduce a few topic lines
  560. # [18:53] <annevk> usually the topic of discourse was introduced while i was already writing things down so there was not really enough time to make it all fancy
  561. # [18:54] * Quits: adele (adele@24.7.123.50) (Quit: adele)
  562. # [18:56] <smedero> s/partcipate/participate/
  563. # [18:57] <smedero> s/prioritarization/prioritization/
  564. # [18:57] <smedero> s/responsbility/responsibility/
  565. # [18:57] <smedero> s/iton/it on/
  566. # [18:57] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217) (Quit: Laura)
  567. # [18:58] <smedero> s/sovle/solve/
  568. # [18:58] * MikeSmith notes that topics can be inserted before some line with "i/Topic: /line before with the topic should be inserted/
  569. # [18:58] <smedero> s/comitted/committed/
  570. # [18:58] * MikeSmith s/before with/before which/
  571. # [18:59] <smedero> s/persuing/perusing/
  572. # [18:59] <smedero> s/priliminary/preliminary/
  573. # [18:59] <smedero> RRSAgent, make minutes
  574. # [18:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html smedero
  575. # [19:01] <smedero> s/rubys, sounds fine/rubys: sounds fine/
  576. # [19:02] <annevk> s/perusing/pursuing/
  577. # [19:02] * smedero doh
  578. # [19:03] * smedero yes, that makes much more sense. heh.
  579. # [19:03] * smedero doesn't have time to fix up much else
  580. # [19:03] * annevk wonders how the i/Topic: magic goes
  581. # [19:03] <Philip> s/rubys: sounds fine/rubys, sounds fine/
  582. # [19:03] * Philip doesn't think it was a quote
  583. # [19:03] * annevk smedero, don't bother too much
  584. # [19:04] <smedero> ScribeOptions: -noEmbedDiagnostics -final
  585. # [19:04] <smedero> RRSAgent, make minutes
  586. # [19:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html smedero
  587. # [19:05] * smedero everyone happy then?
  588. # [19:06] * smedero or as happy as one can be with an IRC transcript...
  589. # [19:06] * MikeSmith requests that smedero remove more of the irreverence
  590. # [19:07] * smedero you just mean the last few lines at the bottom there?
  591. # [19:07] * MikeSmith smedero, remove the irreverent chatter and replace it with reverent chatter
  592. # [19:08] * MikeSmith is just funning and can be safely ignored as usual
  593. # [19:08] * smedero likes the cut of your jab
  594. # [19:08] * Philip wonders if smedero means "jib"
  595. # [19:09] * smedero quite possibly
  596. # [19:09] * Philip might have missed the joke, though
  597. # [19:10] <smedero> RRSAgent, bye
  598. # [19:10] <RRSAgent> I see no action items
  599. # [19:10] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  600. # [19:11] <Philip> You don't want to mix up your jibs and your jabs, else the jibberwocky will get more frumious, and that would be dangerous to all involved
  601. # [19:12] * shepazu thinks replacing irreverent chatter with irreverent stoicism might also be acceptable
  602. # [19:13] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.207.11) (Ping timeout)
  603. # [19:14] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.207.11)
  604. # [19:16] <hsivonen> Philip: linked to http://philip.html5.org/misc/p-table-ie1.png thanks
  605. # [19:24] * Joins: adele (adele@17.246.17.234)
  606. # [19:24] * Quits: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.105) (Ping timeout)
  607. # [19:55] * Joins: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167)
  608. # [20:08] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  609. # [20:14] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.102)
  610. # [20:28] * Quits: smedero (smedero@66.114.145.154) (Quit: smedero)
  611. # [20:28] * Joins: smedero (smedero@66.114.145.154)
  612. # [20:31] * Quits: annevk (opera@85.196.122.246) (Quit: annevk)
  613. # [20:39] * Quits: masinter (user@192.150.10.200) (Client exited)
  614. # [20:43] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  615. # [20:54] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  616. # [20:54] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  617. # [21:21] * Quits: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.102) (Quit: ChrisWilson)
  618. # [21:21] * Joins: Chris_Wilson (cwilso@131.107.0.102)
  619. # [21:44] * Joins: annevk (opera@85.196.122.246)
  620. # [21:46] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  621. # [22:00] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  622. # [22:41] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  623. # [23:34] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  624. # [23:56] * Parts: billmason (bmason@69.30.57.188)
  625. # [23:56] * Quits: DanC (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  626. # Session Close: Fri Apr 24 00:00:00 2009

The end :)