/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-05-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri May 15 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  25. # [10:36] * Marcos wonders what the scope of network is for "navigator.onLine"
  26. # [10:38] <Hixie> ua-defined
  27. # [10:38] <Hixie> not much we could do to really define it anyway
  28. # [10:38] <Marcos> right, thanks Hixie. That's what I thought.
  29. # [10:39] <jgraham> "You are online if you can reach http://google.com" :)
  30. # [10:39] <Marcos> hehe :)
  31. # [10:40] <Marcos> Actually, that's the default that my old employer used to use. So in some sense that is a very read definition. However, noting all the outages google had today/yesterday, that's probably a bad idea.
  32. # [10:40] <Marcos> s/read/real
  33. # [10:41] <Hixie> there's no way to test it that i can think of that wouldn't have some dependency on the other side of the network
  34. # [10:41] <Hixie> because if it didn't, then what if the other side you wanted to connect to was down? isn't that the same as being offline?
  35. # [10:43] <Philip> What if half of your network connection is down, so you can send packets but not receive them?
  36. # [10:43] <Marcos> right
  37. # [10:43] <Philip> e.g. if you're using carrier pigeons and you run out of pigeons
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  39. # [10:43] <Marcos> For the sake of my spec (widgets), not HTML5, would it be bad to say "The interpretation of the term 'network connection' is left to implementers, but should generally be understood as the ability to access the Internet"
  40. # [10:44] <Marcos> I guess that just opens up "WTF does access the Internet mean?"
  41. # [10:45] <jgraham> I don't see how you can do better than that
  42. # [10:46] <Philip> Do you have to depend on that concept at all?
  43. # [10:46] <Marcos> what if a qualify that a bit with "ability to access the Internet over TPC/IP" ?
  44. # [10:47] <Marcos> Philip: kinda. We want to block all access to "the network" by default... but now I'm starting to think that might not be possible\
  45. # [10:47] <Philip> Opera Mini can't access the internet over TCP/IP, it uses some weird custom protocol (I guess)
  46. # [10:47] <Marcos> right
  47. # [10:49] <Marcos> Interesting, so how does the data get from Opera mini servers to the phone? Is GPRS and 3G not always using TCP/IP?
  48. # [10:49] * Marcos knows nothing of those technologies
  49. # [10:50] * Marcos suddenly remembers "A wise man once said that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
  50. # [10:53] <Philip> I suppose it probably uses TCP/IP tunnelled over whatever the mobile stuff is, but it can't access the internet with that, it can only access Opera's servers
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  58. # [15:04] * Marcos has a quick i18n question, in the IANA registry, the tag zh-Hans-CN is marked as "redundant". If redundant, how do I express PRC Mainland Chinese in simplified script as a language tag?
  59. # [15:14] <Philip> "redundant" makes it sound like there should be an equivalent language tag with which it is redundant, so you could use that other one instead
  60. # [15:14] <hsivonen> is there another kind of zh-Hans than -CN in practice?
  61. # [15:14] <hsivonen> Marcos: it's redundant, because zh, Hans and CN are all registered on their own
  62. # [15:14] <Marcos> zh-Han-tw?
  63. # [15:15] <hsivonen> Marcos: so having the combination in the registry file is redundant
  64. # [15:15] <Marcos> ah, hsivonen, ok, that makes sense
  65. # [15:15] <hsivonen> Marcos: does anyone in practice use zh-Hans-TW (as opposed to zh-Hant-TW)?
  66. # [15:16] <hsivonen> (in practice being commonly enough to have a localization market)
  67. # [15:16] <Marcos> I honestly don't know.
  68. # [15:27] * jgraham wonders why people never say when they dishonestly don't know
  69. # [15:27] <Marcos> heh
  70. # [15:27] <Marcos> I think they often do
  71. # [15:28] <Marcos> simple assertion, "I believe in God".
  72. # [15:31] * Marcos stops right there before this becomes material for Mr Last Week :)
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  91. # [19:48] <DanC> "Incidentally, when it comes time to write the test suite, I recommend
  92. # [19:48] <DanC> using the <a> element's URL decomposition attributes as a good way to test
  93. # [19:48] <DanC> this stuff.
  94. # [19:48] <DanC> "
  95. # [19:49] <DanC> hixie wrote that back on 18 March
  96. # [19:49] <DanC> I'm trying to find docs on those attributes now
  97. # [19:49] <DanC> I made it as far as https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Gecko_DOM_Reference ; anybody have the next clue?
  98. # [19:49] <pimpbot> Title: Gecko DOM Reference - MDC (at developer.mozilla.org)
  99. # [19:50] <Philip> DanC: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#url-decomposition-attributes perhaps?
  100. # [19:50] <pimpbot> Title: 2 Common infrastructure HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  101. # [19:50] <Philip> via http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-a-element
  102. # [19:50] <pimpbot> Title: 4.6 Text-level semantics HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  103. # [19:51] * DanC puzzles over that... "complement"?
  104. # [19:53] <Philip> "n. 1. b. The quantity or number needed to make up a whole: shelves with a full complement of books."
  105. # [19:54] <Philip> (That seems like the closest meaning)
  106. # [19:59] <DanC> thanks... I've got 1 test case working now
  107. # [20:02] * shepazu is a little disappointed by "Spiderman and the XHTML Kindergarten"... it's got a great title, but he doesn't tie it into the body of his argument, and the narrative is more half-heartedly bitter than funny... definitely not one of Björn's better rants
  108. # [20:03] <shepazu> it does have an impressive array of links, however
  109. # [20:06] <hsivonen> shepazu: It seems to me the subject matter is not funny
  110. # [20:07] <shepazu> hsivonen: agreed. he should have worked on that as well
  111. # [20:08] <shepazu> well, nobody's perfect... he still has this one, which is nice and short and snappy: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Mar/0001.html
  112. # [20:08] <pimpbot> Title: Re: W3C communities and its modus operandi from Bjoern Hoehrmann on 2009-03-01 (www-archive@w3.org from March 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  113. # [20:10] <hsivonen> it seems to me that it's more relevant whether Process violations are true than whether they are pointed out in a funny way
  114. # [20:11] * Quits: maddiin (mc@87.185.252.87) (Quit: maddiin)
  115. # [20:12] <shepazu> hsivonen: agreed, again... so, why does he have to dress it up in sarcasm and insults? why didn't he participate in the process in a timely manner to prevent the problem from happening, and to improve the WG deliverables, instead of sitting back and waiting until he could rant about it?
  116. # [20:12] <Philip> hsivonen: You're assuming the desire is for relevance, rather than for amusement
  117. # [20:19] <hsivonen> shepazu: given the XHTML2 WG's track record with addressing comments, it seems unproductive to send comments
  118. # [20:21] <shepazu> hsivonen: did he apply to be an IE in that group? did he try to suggest fixes in a clear and unambiguous fashion, to make it easier to address them? if you have a small group, it's hard to satisfy everyone, and you solve the problems you think are most pressing
  119. # [20:29] <shepazu> anyway, I'm not commenting on the merit of his arguments, just on his presentation
  120. # [20:31] <shepazu> everyone knows the W3C Process is not a legal code, it's just a tool to facilitate effective progress (whether or not it was followed in this case is certainly up for investigation, if the goal is really to improve the Web and not merely to stand on ceremony)
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  124. # [20:54] <DanC> ^
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  126. # [20:55] <DanC> the two characters that would have to be escaped would be "^" and "☺"
  127. # [20:56] * DanC wonders how to get the unicode #s for those chars
  128. # [20:56] <Dashiva> javascript:alert("☺".charCodeAt(0));
  129. # [20:57] <DanC> <DanC> .u ☺
  130. # [20:57] <DanC> <phenny> U+263A WHITE SMILING FACE (☺)
  131. # [20:57] <Dashiva> Add .toString(16) for the hex
  132. # [20:58] <Philip> http://rishida.net/scripts/uniview/conversion
  133. # [20:58] <pimpbot> Title: ishida >> utilities: Unicode code converter (at rishida.net)
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  135. # [21:01] <DanC> "each character other than U+0025 PERCENT SIGN (%) that doesn't match the original <path> production defined in RFC 3986:"
  136. # [21:01] <DanC> doesn't that imply an error-recovery mechanism? what does it mean for "each character" to match a production?
  137. # [21:02] <Dashiva> Where's that?
  138. # [21:02] <DanC> step 7 of 2.5.3 Resolving URLs
  139. # [21:03] <DanC> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html
  140. # [21:03] <pimpbot> Title: 2 Common infrastructure HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  141. # [21:04] <DanC> maybe it means: try the initial segment of length 1; if it matches path, OK, try length 2... length 37 doesn't match, so %xx-lify the last char and continue. something like that?
  142. # [21:04] <gsnedders> I think the problem with how it is done is that either a whole string matches a production or it doesn't
  143. # [21:04] <gsnedders> One character being invalid can totally change how something is parsed
  144. # [21:04] <gsnedders> e.g., 111:foo
  145. # [21:05] <Dashiva> DanC: Probably
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  147. # [21:05] <gsnedders> (The regex in RFC3986 totally misparses that)
  148. # [21:05] * DanC plugs 111:foo into his test framework based on those a decomposition thingies and ian bicking's doctest for js...
  149. # [21:06] <gsnedders> (But there again, it only claims to match URI and not URI-reference)
  150. # [21:06] <gsnedders> (the latter allows either an absolute or relative URI)
  151. # [21:06] <Hixie> Dashiva: yeah we should probably come up with better wording
  152. # [21:06] <gsnedders> (It should be parsed so that "111:foo" is the path, and the rest is blank)
  153. # [21:06] <Hixie> i so wish the uri specs just did this all for us
  154. # [21:06] <Hixie> it's so tedious for us to have to patch it after the fact
  155. # [21:06] * gsnedders just wishes URIs could be sanely parsed
  156. # [21:07] <Dashiva> Hmm...
  157. # [21:07] <Dashiva> So it's for characters that aren't pchar?
  158. # [21:07] <DanC> firefox treats 111:foo as a path
  159. # [21:07] <gsnedders> (Or that all programming languages had built-in methods to parse URIs)
  160. # [21:07] <Hixie> (IE's behaviour is what really matters)
  161. # [21:07] <DanC> I plead guilty for not getting really good URI libraries in all the major programming languages, completely with a test suite to bind them
  162. # [21:08] * smedero remembers that he needs to download new IE virtual machine images
  163. # [21:12] <DanC> shawn, try this: http://bitbucket.org/DanC/urlp/
  164. # [21:12] <pimpbot> Title: DanC / urlp / overview bitbucket.org (at bitbucket.org)
  165. # [21:13] <DanC> $ hg clone http://bitbucket.org/DanC/urlp/
  166. # [21:13] <pimpbot> Title: DanC / urlp / overview bitbucket.org (at bitbucket.org)
  167. # [21:22] <jgraham> DanC: re: urls I think the definition of absolute URL needs to be clarified because the "resolve a url" algoritm assumes that you resolve a url against something
  168. # [21:22] <jgraham> Whereas the definition of absolute url doesn't say what you are trying to resolve it against
  169. # [21:22] <DanC> hmm... yeah; good point. (mail that one, please?)
  170. # [21:25] <jgraham> DanC: Sent
  171. # [21:29] <DanC> thanks
  172. # [22:02] <Hixie> i can't wait to be able to yank that section of html5 and point to your draft
  173. # [22:02] <Hixie> thanks again for all the work you're doing there
  174. # [22:03] * gsnedders watches as Hixie cracks his whip again trying to get DanC to finish it quicker :P
  175. # [22:04] <Hixie> that wasn't my intent at all
  176. # [22:04] <Hixie> stop trying to stir the pot :-P
  177. # [22:04] <gsnedders> But that's boring!
  178. # [22:04] <Hixie> speaking of cracking the whip
  179. # [22:04] * gsnedders is listening to Epic Fail by Hit the Brakes
  180. # [22:04] <Hixie> where's mah anolis updates!
  181. # [22:05] * gsnedders makes some vague mention about having had an English exam today
  182. # [22:05] <Hixie> excuses excuses!
  183. # [22:05] * gsnedders makes some vague mention about the head of English taking the Advanced Higher English class out for tea/coffee after the exam
  184. # [22:06] <Dashiva> Extra credit
  185. # [22:07] * gsnedders makes some vague mention about having a maths exam next Thursday that he'll probably fail because he sucks at maths
  186. # [22:08] * gsnedders would say, "in June, after my exams", but has said he'll do an unbelievable amount in June already
  187. # [22:09] <gsnedders> I've also taken the coping strategy of not writing it down, so I just forget stuff so I don't need to do so much.
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  192. # Session Close: Sat May 16 00:00:01 2009

The end :)