/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-05-27 / end

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# Session Start: Wed May 27 00:00:00 2009
# Session Ident: #html-wg
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# [07:12] <MikeSmith> @changes
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# [07:15] <MikeSmith> @changes
# [07:15] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: <marquee>, CSS side (whatwg r3141) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009May/0070.html> ** Try to clarify what it means to change the encoding from UTF-16 to UTF-8. (whatwg r3140) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009May/0069.html> ** Use real content, not CSS, to add Example labels. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html- (25 more messages)
# [07:16] <MikeSmith> @rss http://www.w3.org/html/planet/atom.xml
# [07:16] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: Error: Invalid (unparsable) RSS feed.
# [07:20] <MikeSmith> @rss http://www.w3.org/html/planet/atom.xml
# [07:20] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: Mozilla Platform Meeting Minutes: 2009-05-26 <http://blog.mozilla.com/meeting-notes/archives/185> ** Nokogiri <http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/05/25/Nokogiri> ** Validator.nu HTML Parser 1.2.1 <http://blog.whatwg.org/validatornu-html-parser-121> ** <div>The Validator.nu HTML Parser</div> <http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/> ** Slashdot: HTML 5 As a Viable Alternative To (4 more messages)
# [07:21] <MikeSmith> anne: ERROR:planet.runner:Error 500 while updating feed http://annevankesteren.nl/feeds/weblog
# [07:21] <pimpbot> Title: Anne’s WeblogpfcongrezSeven Things You Probably Don't Know About MeHTML5 and WAI-ARIA (at annevankesteren.nl)
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# [07:28] <MikeSmith> @planet
# [07:28] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: Mozilla Platform Meeting Minutes: 2009-05-26 <http://blog.mozilla.com/meeting-notes/archives/185> ** Nokogiri <http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/05/25/Nokogiri> ** Validator.nu HTML Parser 1.2.1 <http://blog.whatwg.org/validatornu-html-parser-121> ** <div>The Validator.nu HTML Parser</div> <http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/> ** Slashdot: HTML 5 As a Viable Alternative To (4 more messages)
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# [07:34] <scibotic> Hello.
# [07:34] <MikeSmith> scibotic: hi
# [07:35] <scibotic> Was GZIP always intended as a web standard for compressing files?
# [07:36] <MikeSmith> scibotic: dunno
# [07:36] <MikeSmith> why does it matter?
# [07:36] <scibotic> Well I'm kind of wondering why they never used it to pack multiple files together.
# [07:36] <MikeSmith> who?
# [07:36] <scibotic> Browsers/Servers etc.
# [07:37] <MikeSmith> why would you expect a browser to do with a gzip file that packs multiple files together?
# [07:37] <MikeSmith> I mean, what differently that what browsers do with such files now
# [07:38] <scibotic> Well if someone was trying to access it with a proceeding slash, download the gzip and seamlessly access the file path after it.
# [07:39] <scibotic> Mainly just as a simple way of pulling down large amounts of files without passing a server request for each one.
# [07:41] <MikeSmith> the browser or other UA would need to pass a server request for each one anyway
# [07:41] <MikeSmith> I mean as far as the way things work now
# [07:42] <scibotic> Not if you just download the gzip and then access the contents, if you're trying to do otherwise you might as well pack each file individually.
# [07:44] <hsivonen> gzip is not an mupli-file archive format
# [07:44] <hsivonen> zip is
# [07:44] <hsivonen> and Gecko supports addressing into jar files
# [07:46] <scibotic> Huh, you're right. Didn't notice that about gzip.
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# [08:35] <anne> MikeSmith, seems to work now
# [08:36] <MikeSmith> anne: yeah, here too. dunno why I got that message
# [08:42] <anne> me even less :)
# [08:43] <MikeSmith> pimpbot drinks too much Ripple wine sometimes and gets confused
# [08:43] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: Huh?
# [08:43] <MikeSmith> case in point
# [08:44] <MikeSmith> pimpbot, go smoke a blunt to clear your head of that cheap wine, man
# [08:44] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: Huh?
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# [10:04] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so I'm looking again at adding the additional obsolete-element reporting to v.nu
# [10:04] <MikeSmith> for frameset also
# [10:05] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: would you make RELAX NG allow framesets in legacy.rnc?
# [10:06] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: that's the problem
# [10:06] <MikeSmith> I think it can't be done only with a change to legacy.rnc
# [10:06] <MikeSmith> but would need to touch the meta.rnc file
# [10:07] <MikeSmith> to add a toggle to the content model of the html element
# [10:07] <hsivonen> You'd need to add a production that is notAllowed in meta.rnc and then you add to it with |= in legacy
# [10:07] <MikeSmith> off by default
# [10:07] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [10:07] <hsivonen> the way the ARIA hooks work
# [10:07] <MikeSmith> OK
# [10:08] <MikeSmith> I can make that change, but I'm just wondering if you think it it worth the trouble in this case
# [10:09] <hsivonen> I think it's worthwhile
# [10:09] <MikeSmith> OK
# [10:09] <hsivonen> of course, legacy.rnc raises the question whether stuff in there should simply be conforming :-)
# [10:09] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [10:10] <hsivonen> well, <basefont> clearly shouldn't, but I don't remember if it's actually there
# [10:10] <MikeSmith> I've not added basefont yet
# [10:11] <hsivonen> it doesn't need to be there, because it's empty
# [10:12] <MikeSmith> hmm, I need to go back and look at the bug and patch I already made
# [10:12] <MikeSmith> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=84
# [10:13] <MikeSmith> that's just the patch for the assertions
# [10:13] <MikeSmith> I see
# [10:14] <MikeSmith> so you are saying that because basefont is empty, there's no need to add it to legacy.rnc because the only point of having it in legacy.rnc would be so that we could report any problems in the subtree?
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# [10:17] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: right
# [10:17] <MikeSmith> OK
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# [10:35] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: about http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=511
# [10:36] <pimpbot> Title: Bug 511 - enable easy "no network" mode for running validator (at bugzilla.validator.nu)
# [10:36] <MikeSmith> so what I'd like to be able to do is have copies of http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry and http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MicrosyntaxDescriptions in the repository
# [10:36] <pimpbot> Title: MicrosyntaxDescriptions - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org)
# [10:36] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the microsyntax stuff needs to ship with the source, but the IANA stuff is trickier, because it's non-Free
# [10:37] <MikeSmith> ah
# [10:37] <hsivonen> Maybe I should have instructions that you need to have a file in RFC XYZ format and you can obtain a useful non-Free file in that format from the IANA
# [10:38] <hsivonen> and have a ready-made location where you can drop it
# [10:38] <hsivonen> frankly, I think it's silly that the IANA doesn't dedicate the registry files to the Public Domain
# [10:39] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [10:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: maybe another way would be to have the build download and drop it somewhere. once
# [10:40] <MikeSmith> so I'd still need to have a net connection the first time I build
# [10:40] <MikeSmith> but then I would necessarily need to after
# [10:40] <MikeSmith> wouldn't
# [10:40] <hsivonen> like flash-plugin-nonfree on Ubuntu :-/
# [10:42] <anne> IANA sucks for other reasons too
# [10:42] <MikeSmith> well, my main motivation for this is, when I did my first presentation on v.nu in Australia, I stopped my local v.nu to demo the effect of making a change to the schema, then I tried to restart it... and realized I had no network connection
# [10:42] <anne> http://roy.gbiv.com/untangled/2009/wrangling-mimetypes "IANA is a quaint off-shoot of the Internet Engineering Taskforce that, much like the IETF, is still stuck in the 1980s."
# [10:42] <pimpbot> Title: Wrangling mime.types � Untangled (at roy.gbiv.com)
# [10:42] <MikeSmith> so it couldn't rebuild
# [10:42] <anne> hmm, pimpbot should output UTF-8
# [10:43] <hsivonen> shepazu: http://www.schepers.cc/about/ is 404
# [10:43] <MikeSmith> anne: a bit of irony in that quote
# [10:43] <anne> you mean he's still stuck there too? :p
# [10:44] <Philip> I would have assumed be more in the 90s
# [10:44] <Philip> s/be/he'd be/
# [10:44] <MikeSmith> anne: I mean nothing at all... I suggest nothing... I leave the interpretation up to the reader
# [10:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: sorry about that. (That's why I prerecord my demos and lipsync)
# [10:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: not your fault. I knew ahead of time that I needed a net connection to build -- just forgot
# [10:45] <hsivonen> btw, the build script already allows you to override the HTTP URLs with file: ones, but the default is the wrong way round
# [10:46] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: and I naively assumed that the computer science department of a major Australian university would have a network connection available for me during the presentation...
# [10:46] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I was thinking just a single switch named --nonet or whatever
# [10:47] <anne> what exactly do you use from IANA hsivonen?
# [10:47] <hsivonen> anne: the language subtag registry
# [10:48] <hsivonen> anne: I checked with the IANA about distribution rights
# [10:48] <hsivonen> anne: they'd allow me to distribute it as an invariant section
# [10:48] <hsivonen> anne: but it would be a slippery slope starting to commit non-Free items into a free software repo
# [10:48] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: and specifying that switch would then cause the file: urls to be used, with the paths being to wherever the copies were dropped by the initial build (when network connection was available)
# [10:48] <hsivonen> of course, it's already slippery that the software want to load that file
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# [10:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I don't think Debian at least would alloow it with an invariant section
# [10:49] <hsivonen> If anyone knows how to implement language tag validation without non-free data, I'd like to know
# [10:49] <MikeSmith> except in non-free
# [10:49] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: right.
# [10:49] <anne> hsivonen, can you distribute a modified one as free?
# [10:49] <hsivonen> anne: no
# [10:49] <hsivonen> anne: that's the problem
# [10:51] <MikeSmith> wonder wtf they believe they are protecting with the invariant-must-be-included licensing constraint
# [10:51] <hsivonen> this is the same old excuse about using copyright to enforce conformance
# [10:51] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: what does the invariant part acutally say?
# [10:51] <hsivonen> the thing is, I can already make non-conforming software without their data!
# [10:51] <MikeSmith> "This file came from the IANA"
# [10:51] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: no, the registry itself would be invariant
# [10:52] <MikeSmith> ah
# [10:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: having invariant legal legends is Free
# [10:52] <MikeSmith> I see
# [10:53] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: 1. say IANA owns it and granted permission to distribute it
# [10:53] <hsivonen> 2. Editing not allowed
# [10:53] <hsivonen> 3. must include original uri
# [10:54] <anne> "It is intended that XHTML become the preferred format for viewing registries, with plain text being made available for accessibility reasons." -- http://www.iana.org/reports/2008/xml-registry-launch.html
# [10:54] <pimpbot> Title: IANA First release of XML formatted registries (at www.iana.org)
# [10:54] <hsivonen> 4. say that the program isn't endorsed by the IANA
# [10:55] <anne> does Apache follows these rules?
# [10:55] <hsivonen> I have no idea
# [10:55] <anne> I doubt Roy does that reading how he updates the mimetype file
# [10:56] <anne> in which case everyone shipping Apache is violating the rules which includes pretty much all major companies
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# [10:56] <hsivonen> actually, point 2. says "You do not edit or selectively quote the material to make it
# [10:57] <hsivonen> false or misleading;"
# [10:57] <hsivonen> and they never responded to my question whether it's OK to edit if it's flagged as edited
# [10:57] <hsivonen> maybe I should ask them again
# [11:07] <hsivonen> (sent a new question)
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# [11:58] <pimpbot> planet: <div>Not Part of the Technology Stack</div> <http://hsivonen.iki.fi/technology-stack/>
# [12:01] <anne> fail
# [12:03] <tlr> fwiw, if there's something concrete you want to get out of IANA, I might be able to help with that.
# [12:04] <anne> it seems the desire is for the language tag registry to be in the public domain
# [12:04] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [12:04] <tlr> where are the current conditions?
# [12:05] <MikeSmith> tlr: for http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry to be redistributable under a genuinely free license
# [12:06] <MikeSmith> tlr: dunno. I think you have to actually contact them to find out what the license terms are
# [12:06] <MikeSmith> there's not license statement in the file itself
# [12:06] <MikeSmith> I assume hsivonen found out through correspondence with them or something
# [12:08] <anne> I wonder if it'd be IETF process to write an RFC that says IANA should put its registries in the public domain
# [12:09] * tlr reads IRC backlo
# [12:09] <tlr> +g
# [12:09] <tlr> good luck getting IETF consensus for that (I don't think you will)
# [12:10] <tlr> fwiw, lots of open source software has included things like RFCs as immutable bits for a long time without that causing real problems.
# [12:10] <tlr> been there, done that
# [12:10] <anne> that doesn't mean it's legally ok
# [12:10] <Philip> Sounds like the argument that it doesn't matter that the W3C document license forbids things that people really want to do, because people do them anyway and the W3C hasn't complained yet
# [12:10] <anne> lots of times I've driven through red on my cycle...
# [12:11] <MikeSmith> tlr: what anne said
# [12:11] <anne> (now apparently in Norway one is allowed to walk through red if there's no traffic coming)
# [12:11] <tlr> yeah, well, and the Debian view is mostly the rough equivalent of cycling when there's a red light within 10km
# [12:12] <anne> not cycling you mean?
# [12:12] <Dashiva> When you're cycling you count as driving, so it's against the law :)
# [12:12] <anne> that's why I said walk
# [12:12] <anne> but yeah
# [12:13] <MikeSmith> tlr: I guess. and anybody can choose to tell Debian packagers to just go to hell when they ask you about licenses for things you've packaged with your software, and you can choose to not have your software packaged for Debian
# [12:13] <tlr> mike, precisely. Typically, they'll then find a workaround.
# [12:14] <tlr> (yes, been there. About *dynamically* linking OpenSSL into GPLed software.)
# [12:14] <MikeSmith> tlr: the right solution would be for the IETF and IANA to make their documents available under a license that actually aligns with reality
# [12:15] <MikeSmith> instead of aligning with some imagined dreamland
# [12:15] <tlr> so, how does the license that IANA is making available not work with reality?
# [12:15] <tlr> you can take the file. You can distribute it. You can't modify it. Fine, no?
# [12:16] <MikeSmith> in my very speicific case, it prevents us from making it easy for people who want to run a local validator.nu instance without a network connection
# [12:16] <MikeSmith> tlr: no, not fine
# [12:16] <tlr> so, which of the conditions they gave to hsivonen do you have to break?
# [12:16] <Philip> If that was fine, presumably everyone would be happy to distribute binary firmware too, since that's free to distribute though not to modify it
# [12:17] <MikeSmith> tlr: to be able to have it packaged freely
# [12:17] <jgraham> The idea that you shouldn't be allowed to modify the file is insane
# [12:17] <tlr> philip, there's a difference between a list of identifiers on the one hand, and all the interesting code (firmware) on the other
# [12:17] <MikeSmith> tlr: and frankly to be able to have people be able to do whatever the hell they want with it, rather than placing completely unnecessary restrictions on them
# [12:18] <tlr> jgraham, that's an assertion, not a reason. Why is it insane?
# [12:18] <jgraham> tlr: Indeed :)
# [12:18] <tlr> mike, "completely unnecessary" is assertion, not reason, again.
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# [12:18] <tlr> mike, and re "able to have it packaged freely" -- you perhaps need to build a work-around for Debian.
# [12:19] <tlr> mike, other than that, you can package and distribute it and all.
# [12:19] <jgraham> tlr: Because preventing you modifying one file has proven harmful effects (can't be distributed with free software) and no actual benefits (doesn't stop people from making up a similar but different list)
# [12:19] <MikeSmith> tlr: also, if the situation were that the IETF had a record of promptly responding to request for updates to their content, then nobody would have to worry about needing to modify them
# [12:19] <tlr> jgraham, "can't be distributed with free software" is the Debian reading (which I haven't much sympathy for), and hasn't stopped pretty much anyone else.
# [12:19] <anne> tlr, also it is violated in practice, e.g. Apache ships some modified version of the mimetype registry
# [12:20] <MikeSmith> which is the whole point
# [12:20] <jgraham> tlr: I am scared terribly when people say "oh no one cares about that restriction so it doesn't matter that it exists"
# [12:20] <tlr> jgraham, I'm saying "the restriction exists in Debian's reading of where we are"
# [12:20] <tlr> that's a very different statement
# [12:21] <tlr> mike, re Apache, you're referring to the mime.types file in their distribution?
# [12:21] <MikeSmith> tlr: yeah (though anne is the one who mentioned that)
# [12:21] <anne> you're basically arguing that breaking the law is ok if everyone else does it too
# [12:22] <tlr> anne, wrong.
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# [12:22] <tlr> I'm saying that I don't buy Debian's interpretation.
# [12:22] <jgraham> tlr: It seems like the interpretation of potential distributors is exactly what we should be concerned with. That is, if debian are interpreting it to mean one thing and that interpretation is unintentional the license should be changed to prevent the misinterpretation
# [12:23] <tlr> I'm not saying that Debian's interpretation is unintentional -- I figure it's their intent.
# [12:23] <jgraham> Especially since, as I said before, the current restrictions seem to be useless in practice
# [12:23] <MikeSmith> tlr: I guess you don't need to buy Debian's interpretation unless you actually want Debian to redistribute your software under their rules
# [12:23] <MikeSmith> but if you do, then you need to follow their rules
# [12:24] <jgraham> tlr: You are saying that they are intentionally interpreting it in a perverse an unreasonable way?
# [12:24] <MikeSmith> which is actually comes down to a single rule
# [12:24] <tlr> mike, their package maintainers tend to find workarounds. Let their interpretation be their problem.
# [12:24] <tlr> jgraham, I think that that's certainly what happened in the OpenSSL / dynamic linking case.
# [12:24] <jgraham> tlr: I have no interest n that case though
# [12:24] <MikeSmith> tlr: I guess I don't really see the solution of having N different packagers make N different workarounds to be the best solution to the problem
# [12:25] <tlr> What Debian says is, fundamentally, "we want every single file in every single package [and every dependency, too] to be open source licensed, be it code or data"
# [12:25] <MikeSmith> when the problem could be fixed by having 1 upstream organization correct their antiquated licensing terms
# [12:25] <tlr> (scoped to the not non-free parts of the distribution, of course)
# [12:25] <jgraham> tlr: What concrete problems have been solved by the current licensing?
# [12:26] <tlr> the thing that's solved with the current style of licensing regime is setting a clear expectation about registry maintenance for protocol numbers. (and, similarly, specifications)
# [12:26] <tlr> the counter-arguments mostly have to do with self-inflicted pain on the Debian side.
# [12:26] <jgraham> An expectation is not a concrete problem
# [12:27] <jgraham> I mean an example where something bad was averted because of the licensing
# [12:27] <tlr> I don't know of concrete cases where these were enforced, but nevertheless think that the licensing makes sense.
# [12:28] <MikeSmith> elephant whistle
# [12:28] <anne> the current licensing regime is not clear
# [12:28] <anne> if it is, I'd appreciate a pointer
# [12:29] <anne> (I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Apache example though)
# [12:29] <MikeSmith> it's at least not clear at all in the case of the language-tag registry
# [12:29] <tlr> anne, I simply don't know what has or hasn't been said between the Apache folks and IANA and others.
# [12:30] <tlr> so I'm not going to make pronouncements based on incomplete information.
# [12:30] <hsivonen> tlr: I got the conditions via email. And I never got reply to my questions about clarifications (including whether it's OK to publish the conditions)
# [12:31] <jgraham> Right so you assert that the concrete examples of harm are less important than the ability of IANA to enforce it's authority through copyright law?
# [12:31] <tlr> about the debian packaging piece: It would seem like you could solve the problem with a dependency on doc-iana
# [12:31] <jgraham> s/'//
# [12:31] <tlr> hsivonen, see /msg
# [12:31] * MikeSmith does apt-cache search doc-iana
# [12:31] <jgraham> (rather than enforcing its authority through quality)
# [12:33] <MikeSmith> http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/non-free/d/doc-iana/doc-iana_20081201-1/copyright
# [12:33] <MikeSmith> tlr: that won't solve the problem for people who don't use non-free
# [12:34] * tlr chuckles. 1997, that's ancient history
# [12:35] <MikeSmith> that's when the last major version of a Rec for HTML was published
# [12:35] <karl> yet another version of html?
# [12:35] <karl> http://johnaugust.com/archives/2009/kindle-formatting-for-web-geeks
# [12:35] <pimpbot> Title: johnaugust.com � Kindle formatting for web geeks (at johnaugust.com)
# [12:36] <karl> http://kindleformatting.com/formatting.php
# [12:36] <pimpbot> Title: Kindle Formatting - Formatting Tips (at kindleformatting.com)
# [12:37] <karl> http://forums.digitaltextplatform.com/dtpforums/entry.jspa?externalID=30&categoryID=11
# [12:37] <pimpbot> Title: Amazon DTP Support : HTML Tags Supported (at forums.digitaltextplatform.com)
# [12:38] <karl> digitaltextplatform
# [12:38] <karl> http://forums.digitaltextplatform.com/dtpforums/entry.jspa?externalID=29&categoryID=11
# [12:38] <pimpbot> Title: Amazon DTP Support : Custom Tags (at forums.digitaltextplatform.com)
# [12:39] <karl> http://forums.digitaltextplatform.com/dtpforums/entry.jspa?externalID=23&categoryID=10
# [12:39] <pimpbot> Title: Amazon DTP Support : Common HTML Tags (at forums.digitaltextplatform.com)
# [12:41] <karl> http://forums.digitaltextplatform.com/dtpforums/entry.jspa?externalID=31&categoryID=11
# [12:41] <pimpbot> Title: Amazon DTP Support : Advanced Formatting (at forums.digitaltextplatform.com)
# [12:41] <karl> http://forums.digitaltextplatform.com/dtpforums/entry.jspa?externalID=27&categoryID=11
# [12:41] <pimpbot> Title: Amazon DTP Support : Paragraphs (at forums.digitaltextplatform.com)
# [12:41] <karl> <p width="N"> (pixels), <p width="N%">,<p width="Nem"> or <p width="Npt">
# [12:42] <karl> <p height="N"> (pixels), <p height="N%">, <p height="Nem"> or <p height="Npt">
# [12:43] <karl> >Amazon DTP does not support tables inside HTML documents. Your content will end up looking malformed or even miss parts of it if you include tables. -- http://forums.digitaltextplatform.com/dtpforums/entry.jspa?externalID=26&categoryID=11
# [12:43] <pimpbot> Title: Amazon DTP Support : Tables (at forums.digitaltextplatform.com)
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# [12:44] <karl> Margins
# [12:44] <karl> >At this time, Amazon DTP doesn't support margins set inside CSS/HTML (such as topmargin, leftmargin etc. set in px values). -- http://forums.digitaltextplatform.com/dtpforums/entry.jspa?externalID=25&categoryID=11
# [12:44] <pimpbot> Title: Amazon DTP Support : Formatting Tips (at forums.digitaltextplatform.com)
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# [12:50] <MikeSmith> karl: <a name="start"/> ... great stuff
# [12:50] <MikeSmith> "Pretend it’s 1995 and you're coding for Netscape Navigator."
# [12:50] <tlr> (btw, "ancient history" about 1997 referred to the institutional history around IANA since then)
# [12:51] <karl> hehe ;) yep… more nightmares :) because the content made for ebooks will not stay on ebooks for sure in the generation to come.
# [12:51] <karl> I wonder who is making the user agent/reader software for the Kindle.
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# [12:53] <Philip> http://www.marco.org/35457408
# [12:53] <pimpbot> Title: Marco.org - Amazon Kindle's HTTP User-Agent string (at www.marco.org)
# [12:53] <Philip> "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; Linux 2.6.10) NetFront/3.3 Kindle/1.0 (screen 600x800)"
# [12:54] <MikeSmith> wow
# [12:54] <MikeSmith> didn't know that thing was running Netfront
# [12:54] <Philip> Maybe it's only running NetFront to the same extent as it's running Mozilla
# [12:56] <hsivonen> sigh. I wish they'd put Gecko, WebKit or Presto on it
# [12:56] <hsivonen> or Prince
# [12:56] <MikeSmith> well, that'd be the first case I've ever seen of a Netfront in a UA string that wasn't from an actual Netfront browser
# [12:57] <MikeSmith> I doubt Gecko could run on that device
# [12:57] <anne> http://www.google.com/search?q=copyright+site%3Aiana.org :/
# [12:57] <pimpbot> Title: copyright site:iana.org - Google Search (at www.google.com)
# [12:58] <karl> Kindle is an Intel PXA255 processor - http://www.technologyreview.com/computing/20218/
# [12:58] <pimpbot> Title: Technology Review: Amazon Kindle (at www.technologyreview.com)
# [12:58] <karl> Kindle would run a modified version of the Linux 2.6.10 kernel
# [12:59] <Philip> What makes NetFront more attractive to device manufacturers than other web browsers?
# [12:59] * Philip wonders if it's smaller or cheaper or has better marketing or has better support or something
# [13:00] <MikeSmith> Philip: smaller, cheaper
# [13:00] <MikeSmith> with some marketing
# [13:00] <MikeSmith> it's already been ported to a bunch of different architectures
# [13:01] <MikeSmith> used in a lot of devices, embedded/unbranded
# [13:02] <hsivonen> whoa. ICEbrowser has been discontinued
# [13:02] <karl> Philip: "who's first on market." When USA browser vendors were still thinking in terms of desktop, mobile was going full throttle in Japan.
# [13:02] <MikeSmith> Philip: though all of what I said above could also be said of Presto
# [13:03] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the "cheaper" part, too?
# [13:03] <Philip> MikeSmith: NetFront and Presto can't both be smaller and cheaper than each other :-)
# [13:08] <MikeSmith> I guess in getting a browser preinstalled on a particular device, the "cheaper" part often comes down to who wants the deal the most
# [13:10] <MikeSmith> and who's most willing to go along with a device maker whatever price the device maker claims they're willing to pay
# [13:11] <MikeSmith> before deciding the juice ain't worth the squeeze
# [13:15] * karl is heading for a coffee and book reading.
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# [14:47] <karl> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/burnout/
# [14:47] <pimpbot> Title: A List Apart: Articles: Burnout (at www.alistapart.com)
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# [15:59] <pimpbot> planet: Gmail for mobile HTML5 Series - Part 3: Using AppCache to Launch Offline <http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/blogspot/Dcni/~3/3A6c7X65roU/gmail-for-mobile-html5-series-part-3.html>
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# [17:00] <pimpbot> planet: <div>Not Part of the Technology Stack</div> <http://hsivonen.iki.fi/technology-stack/>
# [17:11] <Dashiva> Yes, pimpbot, we know
# [17:12] <hsivonen> unfortunately, the manual pingbacks refresh the post in the feed :-(
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# [19:28] <hober> I don't understand http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/05/google-bets-big-on-html-5.html#comment-2060486
# [19:28] <pimpbot> Title: Google Bets Big on HTML 5: News from Google I/O - O'Reilly Radar (at radar.oreilly.com)
# [19:28] <hober> I would think anyone involved in the WG would be excited to read about all the adoption we're getting.
# [19:35] <Philip> Depends on why they're involved with the WG
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# [21:01] <pimpbot> changes: various typos (whatwg r3142) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009May/0071.html>
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# [21:39] <jgraham> "Frankly, I'm not seeing the frenzy of excitement you seem to be seeing. And I'm on the W3C HTML WG. Which probably explains why I'm not in a frenzy of excitement about HTML5."
# [21:39] <jgraham> Nice of Shelly to mention that being "on the WG" is basically meaningless
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# Session Close: Thu May 28 00:00:00 2009

The end :)