/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-05-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 27 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  32. # [07:12] <MikeSmith> @changes
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  35. # [07:15] <MikeSmith> @changes
  36. # [07:15] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: <marquee>, CSS side (whatwg r3141) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009May/0070.html> ** Try to clarify what it means to change the encoding from UTF-16 to UTF-8. (whatwg r3140) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009May/0069.html> ** Use real content, not CSS, to add Example labels. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html- (25 more messages)
  37. # [07:16] <MikeSmith> @rss http://www.w3.org/html/planet/atom.xml
  38. # [07:16] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: Error: Invalid (unparsable) RSS feed.
  39. # [07:20] <MikeSmith> @rss http://www.w3.org/html/planet/atom.xml
  40. # [07:20] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: Mozilla Platform Meeting Minutes: 2009-05-26 <http://blog.mozilla.com/meeting-notes/archives/185> ** Nokogiri <http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/05/25/Nokogiri> ** Validator.nu HTML Parser 1.2.1 <http://blog.whatwg.org/validatornu-html-parser-121> ** <div>The Validator.nu HTML Parser</div> <http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/> ** Slashdot: HTML 5 As a Viable Alternative To (4 more messages)
  41. # [07:21] <MikeSmith> anne: ERROR:planet.runner:Error 500 while updating feed http://annevankesteren.nl/feeds/weblog
  42. # [07:21] <pimpbot> Title: Anne’s WeblogpfcongrezSeven Things You Probably Don't Know About MeHTML5 and WAI-ARIA (at annevankesteren.nl)
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  48. # [07:28] <MikeSmith> @planet
  49. # [07:28] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: Mozilla Platform Meeting Minutes: 2009-05-26 <http://blog.mozilla.com/meeting-notes/archives/185> ** Nokogiri <http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/05/25/Nokogiri> ** Validator.nu HTML Parser 1.2.1 <http://blog.whatwg.org/validatornu-html-parser-121> ** <div>The Validator.nu HTML Parser</div> <http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/> ** Slashdot: HTML 5 As a Viable Alternative To (4 more messages)
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  52. # [07:34] <scibotic> Hello.
  53. # [07:34] <MikeSmith> scibotic: hi
  54. # [07:35] <scibotic> Was GZIP always intended as a web standard for compressing files?
  55. # [07:36] <MikeSmith> scibotic: dunno
  56. # [07:36] <MikeSmith> why does it matter?
  57. # [07:36] <scibotic> Well I'm kind of wondering why they never used it to pack multiple files together.
  58. # [07:36] <MikeSmith> who?
  59. # [07:36] <scibotic> Browsers/Servers etc.
  60. # [07:37] <MikeSmith> why would you expect a browser to do with a gzip file that packs multiple files together?
  61. # [07:37] <MikeSmith> I mean, what differently that what browsers do with such files now
  62. # [07:38] <scibotic> Well if someone was trying to access it with a proceeding slash, download the gzip and seamlessly access the file path after it.
  63. # [07:39] <scibotic> Mainly just as a simple way of pulling down large amounts of files without passing a server request for each one.
  64. # [07:41] <MikeSmith> the browser or other UA would need to pass a server request for each one anyway
  65. # [07:41] <MikeSmith> I mean as far as the way things work now
  66. # [07:42] <scibotic> Not if you just download the gzip and then access the contents, if you're trying to do otherwise you might as well pack each file individually.
  67. # [07:44] <hsivonen> gzip is not an mupli-file archive format
  68. # [07:44] <hsivonen> zip is
  69. # [07:44] <hsivonen> and Gecko supports addressing into jar files
  70. # [07:46] <scibotic> Huh, you're right. Didn't notice that about gzip.
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  74. # [08:35] <anne> MikeSmith, seems to work now
  75. # [08:36] <MikeSmith> anne: yeah, here too. dunno why I got that message
  76. # [08:42] <anne> me even less :)
  77. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> pimpbot drinks too much Ripple wine sometimes and gets confused
  78. # [08:43] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: Huh?
  79. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> case in point
  80. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> pimpbot, go smoke a blunt to clear your head of that cheap wine, man
  81. # [08:44] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: Huh?
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  87. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so I'm looking again at adding the additional obsolete-element reporting to v.nu
  88. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> for frameset also
  89. # [10:05] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: would you make RELAX NG allow framesets in legacy.rnc?
  90. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: that's the problem
  91. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> I think it can't be done only with a change to legacy.rnc
  92. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> but would need to touch the meta.rnc file
  93. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> to add a toggle to the content model of the html element
  94. # [10:07] <hsivonen> You'd need to add a production that is notAllowed in meta.rnc and then you add to it with |= in legacy
  95. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> off by default
  96. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> yeah
  97. # [10:07] <hsivonen> the way the ARIA hooks work
  98. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> OK
  99. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> I can make that change, but I'm just wondering if you think it it worth the trouble in this case
  100. # [10:09] <hsivonen> I think it's worthwhile
  101. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> OK
  102. # [10:09] <hsivonen> of course, legacy.rnc raises the question whether stuff in there should simply be conforming :-)
  103. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> yeah
  104. # [10:10] <hsivonen> well, <basefont> clearly shouldn't, but I don't remember if it's actually there
  105. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> I've not added basefont yet
  106. # [10:11] <hsivonen> it doesn't need to be there, because it's empty
  107. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> hmm, I need to go back and look at the bug and patch I already made
  108. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=84
  109. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> that's just the patch for the assertions
  110. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> I see
  111. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> so you are saying that because basefont is empty, there's no need to add it to legacy.rnc because the only point of having it in legacy.rnc would be so that we could report any problems in the subtree?
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  113. # [10:17] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: right
  114. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> OK
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  116. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: about http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=511
  117. # [10:36] <pimpbot> Title: Bug 511 - enable easy "no network" mode for running validator (at bugzilla.validator.nu)
  118. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> so what I'd like to be able to do is have copies of http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry and http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MicrosyntaxDescriptions in the repository
  119. # [10:36] <pimpbot> Title: MicrosyntaxDescriptions - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org)
  120. # [10:36] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the microsyntax stuff needs to ship with the source, but the IANA stuff is trickier, because it's non-Free
  121. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> ah
  122. # [10:37] <hsivonen> Maybe I should have instructions that you need to have a file in RFC XYZ format and you can obtain a useful non-Free file in that format from the IANA
  123. # [10:38] <hsivonen> and have a ready-made location where you can drop it
  124. # [10:38] <hsivonen> frankly, I think it's silly that the IANA doesn't dedicate the registry files to the Public Domain
  125. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> yeah
  126. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: maybe another way would be to have the build download and drop it somewhere. once
  127. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> so I'd still need to have a net connection the first time I build
  128. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> but then I would necessarily need to after
  129. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> wouldn't
  130. # [10:40] <hsivonen> like flash-plugin-nonfree on Ubuntu :-/
  131. # [10:42] <anne> IANA sucks for other reasons too
  132. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> well, my main motivation for this is, when I did my first presentation on v.nu in Australia, I stopped my local v.nu to demo the effect of making a change to the schema, then I tried to restart it... and realized I had no network connection
  133. # [10:42] <anne> http://roy.gbiv.com/untangled/2009/wrangling-mimetypes "IANA is a quaint off-shoot of the Internet Engineering Taskforce that, much like the IETF, is still stuck in the 1980s."
  134. # [10:42] <pimpbot> Title: Wrangling mime.types » Untangled (at roy.gbiv.com)
  135. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> so it couldn't rebuild
  136. # [10:42] <anne> hmm, pimpbot should output UTF-8
  137. # [10:43] <hsivonen> shepazu: http://www.schepers.cc/about/ is 404
  138. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> anne: a bit of irony in that quote
  139. # [10:43] <anne> you mean he's still stuck there too? :p
  140. # [10:44] <Philip> I would have assumed be more in the 90s
  141. # [10:44] <Philip> s/be/he'd be/
  142. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> anne: I mean nothing at all... I suggest nothing... I leave the interpretation up to the reader
  143. # [10:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: sorry about that. (That's why I prerecord my demos and lipsync)
  144. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: not your fault. I knew ahead of time that I needed a net connection to build -- just forgot
  145. # [10:45] <hsivonen> btw, the build script already allows you to override the HTTP URLs with file: ones, but the default is the wrong way round
  146. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: and I naively assumed that the computer science department of a major Australian university would have a network connection available for me during the presentation...
  147. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I was thinking just a single switch named --nonet or whatever
  148. # [10:47] <anne> what exactly do you use from IANA hsivonen?
  149. # [10:47] <hsivonen> anne: the language subtag registry
  150. # [10:48] <hsivonen> anne: I checked with the IANA about distribution rights
  151. # [10:48] <hsivonen> anne: they'd allow me to distribute it as an invariant section
  152. # [10:48] <hsivonen> anne: but it would be a slippery slope starting to commit non-Free items into a free software repo
  153. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: and specifying that switch would then cause the file: urls to be used, with the paths being to wherever the copies were dropped by the initial build (when network connection was available)
  154. # [10:48] <hsivonen> of course, it's already slippery that the software want to load that file
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  156. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I don't think Debian at least would alloow it with an invariant section
  157. # [10:49] <hsivonen> If anyone knows how to implement language tag validation without non-free data, I'd like to know
  158. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> except in non-free
  159. # [10:49] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: right.
  160. # [10:49] <anne> hsivonen, can you distribute a modified one as free?
  161. # [10:49] <hsivonen> anne: no
  162. # [10:49] <hsivonen> anne: that's the problem
  163. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> wonder wtf they believe they are protecting with the invariant-must-be-included licensing constraint
  164. # [10:51] <hsivonen> this is the same old excuse about using copyright to enforce conformance
  165. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: what does the invariant part acutally say?
  166. # [10:51] <hsivonen> the thing is, I can already make non-conforming software without their data!
  167. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> "This file came from the IANA"
  168. # [10:51] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: no, the registry itself would be invariant
  169. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> ah
  170. # [10:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: having invariant legal legends is Free
  171. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> I see
  172. # [10:53] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: 1. say IANA owns it and granted permission to distribute it
  173. # [10:53] <hsivonen> 2. Editing not allowed
  174. # [10:53] <hsivonen> 3. must include original uri
  175. # [10:54] <anne> "It is intended that XHTML become the preferred format for viewing registries, with plain text being made available for accessibility reasons." -- http://www.iana.org/reports/2008/xml-registry-launch.html
  176. # [10:54] <pimpbot> Title: IANA First release of XML formatted registries (at www.iana.org)
  177. # [10:54] <hsivonen> 4. say that the program isn't endorsed by the IANA
  178. # [10:55] <anne> does Apache follows these rules?
  179. # [10:55] <hsivonen> I have no idea
  180. # [10:55] <anne> I doubt Roy does that reading how he updates the mimetype file
  181. # [10:56] <anne> in which case everyone shipping Apache is violating the rules which includes pretty much all major companies
  182. # [10:56] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.)
  183. # [10:56] <hsivonen> actually, point 2. says "You do not edit or selectively quote the material to make it
  184. # [10:57] <hsivonen> false or misleading;"
  185. # [10:57] <hsivonen> and they never responded to my question whether it's OK to edit if it's flagged as edited
  186. # [10:57] <hsivonen> maybe I should ask them again
  187. # [11:07] <hsivonen> (sent a new question)
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  190. # [11:58] <pimpbot> planet: <div>Not Part of the Technology Stack</div> <http://hsivonen.iki.fi/technology-stack/>
  191. # [12:01] <anne> fail
  192. # [12:03] <tlr> fwiw, if there's something concrete you want to get out of IANA, I might be able to help with that.
  193. # [12:04] <anne> it seems the desire is for the language tag registry to be in the public domain
  194. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> yeah
  195. # [12:04] <tlr> where are the current conditions?
  196. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> tlr: for http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry to be redistributable under a genuinely free license
  197. # [12:06] <MikeSmith> tlr: dunno. I think you have to actually contact them to find out what the license terms are
  198. # [12:06] <MikeSmith> there's not license statement in the file itself
  199. # [12:06] <MikeSmith> I assume hsivonen found out through correspondence with them or something
  200. # [12:08] <anne> I wonder if it'd be IETF process to write an RFC that says IANA should put its registries in the public domain
  201. # [12:09] * tlr reads IRC backlo
  202. # [12:09] <tlr> +g
  203. # [12:09] <tlr> good luck getting IETF consensus for that (I don't think you will)
  204. # [12:10] <tlr> fwiw, lots of open source software has included things like RFCs as immutable bits for a long time without that causing real problems.
  205. # [12:10] <tlr> been there, done that
  206. # [12:10] <anne> that doesn't mean it's legally ok
  207. # [12:10] <Philip> Sounds like the argument that it doesn't matter that the W3C document license forbids things that people really want to do, because people do them anyway and the W3C hasn't complained yet
  208. # [12:10] <anne> lots of times I've driven through red on my cycle...
  209. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> tlr: what anne said
  210. # [12:11] <anne> (now apparently in Norway one is allowed to walk through red if there's no traffic coming)
  211. # [12:11] <tlr> yeah, well, and the Debian view is mostly the rough equivalent of cycling when there's a red light within 10km
  212. # [12:12] <anne> not cycling you mean?
  213. # [12:12] <Dashiva> When you're cycling you count as driving, so it's against the law :)
  214. # [12:12] <anne> that's why I said walk
  215. # [12:12] <anne> but yeah
  216. # [12:13] <MikeSmith> tlr: I guess. and anybody can choose to tell Debian packagers to just go to hell when they ask you about licenses for things you've packaged with your software, and you can choose to not have your software packaged for Debian
  217. # [12:13] <tlr> mike, precisely. Typically, they'll then find a workaround.
  218. # [12:14] <tlr> (yes, been there. About *dynamically* linking OpenSSL into GPLed software.)
  219. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> tlr: the right solution would be for the IETF and IANA to make their documents available under a license that actually aligns with reality
  220. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> instead of aligning with some imagined dreamland
  221. # [12:15] <tlr> so, how does the license that IANA is making available not work with reality?
  222. # [12:15] <tlr> you can take the file. You can distribute it. You can't modify it. Fine, no?
  223. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> in my very speicific case, it prevents us from making it easy for people who want to run a local validator.nu instance without a network connection
  224. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> tlr: no, not fine
  225. # [12:16] <tlr> so, which of the conditions they gave to hsivonen do you have to break?
  226. # [12:16] <Philip> If that was fine, presumably everyone would be happy to distribute binary firmware too, since that's free to distribute though not to modify it
  227. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> tlr: to be able to have it packaged freely
  228. # [12:17] <jgraham> The idea that you shouldn't be allowed to modify the file is insane
  229. # [12:17] <tlr> philip, there's a difference between a list of identifiers on the one hand, and all the interesting code (firmware) on the other
  230. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> tlr: and frankly to be able to have people be able to do whatever the hell they want with it, rather than placing completely unnecessary restrictions on them
  231. # [12:18] <tlr> jgraham, that's an assertion, not a reason. Why is it insane?
  232. # [12:18] <jgraham> tlr: Indeed :)
  233. # [12:18] <tlr> mike, "completely unnecessary" is assertion, not reason, again.
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  235. # [12:18] <tlr> mike, and re "able to have it packaged freely" -- you perhaps need to build a work-around for Debian.
  236. # [12:19] <tlr> mike, other than that, you can package and distribute it and all.
  237. # [12:19] <jgraham> tlr: Because preventing you modifying one file has proven harmful effects (can't be distributed with free software) and no actual benefits (doesn't stop people from making up a similar but different list)
  238. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> tlr: also, if the situation were that the IETF had a record of promptly responding to request for updates to their content, then nobody would have to worry about needing to modify them
  239. # [12:19] <tlr> jgraham, "can't be distributed with free software" is the Debian reading (which I haven't much sympathy for), and hasn't stopped pretty much anyone else.
  240. # [12:19] <anne> tlr, also it is violated in practice, e.g. Apache ships some modified version of the mimetype registry
  241. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> which is the whole point
  242. # [12:20] <jgraham> tlr: I am scared terribly when people say "oh no one cares about that restriction so it doesn't matter that it exists"
  243. # [12:20] <tlr> jgraham, I'm saying "the restriction exists in Debian's reading of where we are"
  244. # [12:20] <tlr> that's a very different statement
  245. # [12:21] <tlr> mike, re Apache, you're referring to the mime.types file in their distribution?
  246. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> tlr: yeah (though anne is the one who mentioned that)
  247. # [12:21] <anne> you're basically arguing that breaking the law is ok if everyone else does it too
  248. # [12:22] <tlr> anne, wrong.
  249. # [12:22] * Joins: maddiin (mc@87.185.212.235)
  250. # [12:22] <tlr> I'm saying that I don't buy Debian's interpretation.
  251. # [12:22] <jgraham> tlr: It seems like the interpretation of potential distributors is exactly what we should be concerned with. That is, if debian are interpreting it to mean one thing and that interpretation is unintentional the license should be changed to prevent the misinterpretation
  252. # [12:23] <tlr> I'm not saying that Debian's interpretation is unintentional -- I figure it's their intent.
  253. # [12:23] <jgraham> Especially since, as I said before, the current restrictions seem to be useless in practice
  254. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> tlr: I guess you don't need to buy Debian's interpretation unless you actually want Debian to redistribute your software under their rules
  255. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> but if you do, then you need to follow their rules
  256. # [12:24] <jgraham> tlr: You are saying that they are intentionally interpreting it in a perverse an unreasonable way?
  257. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> which is actually comes down to a single rule
  258. # [12:24] <tlr> mike, their package maintainers tend to find workarounds. Let their interpretation be their problem.
  259. # [12:24] <tlr> jgraham, I think that that's certainly what happened in the OpenSSL / dynamic linking case.
  260. # [12:24] <jgraham> tlr: I have no interest n that case though
  261. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> tlr: I guess I don't really see the solution of having N different packagers make N different workarounds to be the best solution to the problem
  262. # [12:25] <tlr> What Debian says is, fundamentally, "we want every single file in every single package [and every dependency, too] to be open source licensed, be it code or data"
  263. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> when the problem could be fixed by having 1 upstream organization correct their antiquated licensing terms
  264. # [12:25] <tlr> (scoped to the not non-free parts of the distribution, of course)
  265. # [12:25] <jgraham> tlr: What concrete problems have been solved by the current licensing?
  266. # [12:26] <tlr> the thing that's solved with the current style of licensing regime is setting a clear expectation about registry maintenance for protocol numbers. (and, similarly, specifications)
  267. # [12:26] <tlr> the counter-arguments mostly have to do with self-inflicted pain on the Debian side.
  268. # [12:26] <jgraham> An expectation is not a concrete problem
  269. # [12:27] <jgraham> I mean an example where something bad was averted because of the licensing
  270. # [12:27] <tlr> I don't know of concrete cases where these were enforced, but nevertheless think that the licensing makes sense.
  271. # [12:28] <MikeSmith> elephant whistle
  272. # [12:28] <anne> the current licensing regime is not clear
  273. # [12:28] <anne> if it is, I'd appreciate a pointer
  274. # [12:29] <anne> (I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Apache example though)
  275. # [12:29] <MikeSmith> it's at least not clear at all in the case of the language-tag registry
  276. # [12:29] <tlr> anne, I simply don't know what has or hasn't been said between the Apache folks and IANA and others.
  277. # [12:30] <tlr> so I'm not going to make pronouncements based on incomplete information.
  278. # [12:30] <hsivonen> tlr: I got the conditions via email. And I never got reply to my questions about clarifications (including whether it's OK to publish the conditions)
  279. # [12:31] <jgraham> Right so you assert that the concrete examples of harm are less important than the ability of IANA to enforce it's authority through copyright law?
  280. # [12:31] <tlr> about the debian packaging piece: It would seem like you could solve the problem with a dependency on doc-iana
  281. # [12:31] <jgraham> s/'//
  282. # [12:31] <tlr> hsivonen, see /msg
  283. # [12:31] * MikeSmith does apt-cache search doc-iana
  284. # [12:31] <jgraham> (rather than enforcing its authority through quality)
  285. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/non-free/d/doc-iana/doc-iana_20081201-1/copyright
  286. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> tlr: that won't solve the problem for people who don't use non-free
  287. # [12:34] * tlr chuckles. 1997, that's ancient history
  288. # [12:35] <MikeSmith> that's when the last major version of a Rec for HTML was published
  289. # [12:35] <karl> yet another version of html?
  290. # [12:35] <karl> http://johnaugust.com/archives/2009/kindle-formatting-for-web-geeks
  291. # [12:35] <pimpbot> Title: johnaugust.com » Kindle formatting for web geeks (at johnaugust.com)
  292. # [12:36] <karl> http://kindleformatting.com/formatting.php
  293. # [12:36] <pimpbot> Title: Kindle Formatting - Formatting Tips (at kindleformatting.com)
  294. # [12:37] <karl> http://forums.digitaltextplatform.com/dtpforums/entry.jspa?externalID=30&categoryID=11
  295. # [12:37] <pimpbot> Title: Amazon DTP Support : HTML Tags Supported (at forums.digitaltextplatform.com)
  296. # [12:38] <karl> digitaltextplatform
  297. # [12:38] <karl> http://forums.digitaltextplatform.com/dtpforums/entry.jspa?externalID=29&categoryID=11
  298. # [12:38] <pimpbot> Title: Amazon DTP Support : Custom Tags (at forums.digitaltextplatform.com)
  299. # [12:39] <karl> http://forums.digitaltextplatform.com/dtpforums/entry.jspa?externalID=23&categoryID=10
  300. # [12:39] <pimpbot> Title: Amazon DTP Support : Common HTML Tags (at forums.digitaltextplatform.com)
  301. # [12:41] <karl> http://forums.digitaltextplatform.com/dtpforums/entry.jspa?externalID=31&categoryID=11
  302. # [12:41] <pimpbot> Title: Amazon DTP Support : Advanced Formatting (at forums.digitaltextplatform.com)
  303. # [12:41] <karl> http://forums.digitaltextplatform.com/dtpforums/entry.jspa?externalID=27&categoryID=11
  304. # [12:41] <pimpbot> Title: Amazon DTP Support : Paragraphs (at forums.digitaltextplatform.com)
  305. # [12:41] <karl> <p width="N"> (pixels), <p width="N%">,<p width="Nem"> or <p width="Npt">
  306. # [12:42] <karl> <p height="N"> (pixels), <p height="N%">, <p height="Nem"> or <p height="Npt">
  307. # [12:43] <karl> >Amazon DTP does not support tables inside HTML documents. Your content will end up looking malformed or even miss parts of it if you include tables. -- http://forums.digitaltextplatform.com/dtpforums/entry.jspa?externalID=26&categoryID=11
  308. # [12:43] <pimpbot> Title: Amazon DTP Support : Tables (at forums.digitaltextplatform.com)
  309. # [12:43] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  310. # [12:44] <karl> Margins
  311. # [12:44] <karl> >At this time, Amazon DTP doesn't support margins set inside CSS/HTML (such as topmargin, leftmargin etc. set in px values). -- http://forums.digitaltextplatform.com/dtpforums/entry.jspa?externalID=25&categoryID=11
  312. # [12:44] <pimpbot> Title: Amazon DTP Support : Formatting Tips (at forums.digitaltextplatform.com)
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  315. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> karl: <a name="start"/> ... great stuff
  316. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> "Pretend it’s 1995 and you're coding for Netscape Navigator."
  317. # [12:50] <tlr> (btw, "ancient history" about 1997 referred to the institutional history around IANA since then)
  318. # [12:51] <karl> hehe ;) yep… more nightmares :) because the content made for ebooks will not stay on ebooks for sure in the generation to come.
  319. # [12:51] <karl> I wonder who is making the user agent/reader software for the Kindle.
  320. # [12:52] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.70)
  321. # [12:53] <Philip> http://www.marco.org/35457408
  322. # [12:53] <pimpbot> Title: Marco.org - Amazon Kindle's HTTP User-Agent string (at www.marco.org)
  323. # [12:53] <Philip> "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; Linux 2.6.10) NetFront/3.3 Kindle/1.0 (screen 600x800)"
  324. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> wow
  325. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> didn't know that thing was running Netfront
  326. # [12:54] <Philip> Maybe it's only running NetFront to the same extent as it's running Mozilla
  327. # [12:56] <hsivonen> sigh. I wish they'd put Gecko, WebKit or Presto on it
  328. # [12:56] <hsivonen> or Prince
  329. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> well, that'd be the first case I've ever seen of a Netfront in a UA string that wasn't from an actual Netfront browser
  330. # [12:57] <MikeSmith> I doubt Gecko could run on that device
  331. # [12:57] <anne> http://www.google.com/search?q=copyright+site%3Aiana.org :/
  332. # [12:57] <pimpbot> Title: copyright site:iana.org - Google Search (at www.google.com)
  333. # [12:58] <karl> Kindle is an Intel PXA255 processor - http://www.technologyreview.com/computing/20218/
  334. # [12:58] <pimpbot> Title: Technology Review: Amazon Kindle (at www.technologyreview.com)
  335. # [12:58] <karl> Kindle would run a modified version of the Linux 2.6.10 kernel
  336. # [12:59] <Philip> What makes NetFront more attractive to device manufacturers than other web browsers?
  337. # [12:59] * Philip wonders if it's smaller or cheaper or has better marketing or has better support or something
  338. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> Philip: smaller, cheaper
  339. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> with some marketing
  340. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> it's already been ported to a bunch of different architectures
  341. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> used in a lot of devices, embedded/unbranded
  342. # [13:02] <hsivonen> whoa. ICEbrowser has been discontinued
  343. # [13:02] <karl> Philip: "who's first on market." When USA browser vendors were still thinking in terms of desktop, mobile was going full throttle in Japan.
  344. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> Philip: though all of what I said above could also be said of Presto
  345. # [13:03] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the "cheaper" part, too?
  346. # [13:03] <Philip> MikeSmith: NetFront and Presto can't both be smaller and cheaper than each other :-)
  347. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> I guess in getting a browser preinstalled on a particular device, the "cheaper" part often comes down to who wants the deal the most
  348. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> and who's most willing to go along with a device maker whatever price the device maker claims they're willing to pay
  349. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> before deciding the juice ain't worth the squeeze
  350. # [13:15] * karl is heading for a coffee and book reading.
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  353. # [14:47] <karl> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/burnout/
  354. # [14:47] <pimpbot> Title: A List Apart: Articles: Burnout (at www.alistapart.com)
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  359. # [15:59] <pimpbot> planet: Gmail for mobile HTML5 Series - Part 3: Using AppCache to Launch Offline <http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/blogspot/Dcni/~3/3A6c7X65roU/gmail-for-mobile-html5-series-part-3.html>
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  363. # [17:00] <pimpbot> planet: <div>Not Part of the Technology Stack</div> <http://hsivonen.iki.fi/technology-stack/>
  364. # [17:11] <Dashiva> Yes, pimpbot, we know
  365. # [17:12] <hsivonen> unfortunately, the manual pingbacks refresh the post in the feed :-(
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  376. # [19:28] <hober> I don't understand http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/05/google-bets-big-on-html-5.html#comment-2060486
  377. # [19:28] <pimpbot> Title: Google Bets Big on HTML 5: News from Google I/O - O'Reilly Radar (at radar.oreilly.com)
  378. # [19:28] <hober> I would think anyone involved in the WG would be excited to read about all the adoption we're getting.
  379. # [19:35] <Philip> Depends on why they're involved with the WG
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  392. # [21:01] <pimpbot> changes: various typos (whatwg r3142) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009May/0071.html>
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  396. # [21:21] * tlr is now known as tlr-off
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  399. # [21:39] <jgraham> "Frankly, I'm not seeing the frenzy of excitement you seem to be seeing. And I'm on the W3C HTML WG. Which probably explains why I'm not in a frenzy of excitement about HTML5."
  400. # [21:39] <jgraham> Nice of Shelly to mention that being "on the WG" is basically meaningless
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  416. # Session Close: Thu May 28 00:00:00 2009

The end :)