/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-06-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jun 11 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  9. # [00:16] <pimpbot> changes: Clarify when 'n' can be omitted in vCard. (whatwg r3219) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0068.html>
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  17. # [02:17] <pimpbot> changes: Define location.reload(). (whatwg r3220) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0069.html>
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  24. # [06:58] <pimpbot> planet: Aaron Train: The Open Web with HTML5 Video & Firefox 3.5 <http://aaronmt.wordpress.com/2009/06/11/the-open-web-with-html5-video-firefox-3-5/>
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  36. # [11:49] <pimpbot> changes: h:tml; loosen the content model for <rp> so that it's no longer constrained to just parenthesis characters <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0071.html> ** Define location.reload(). (whatwg r3220) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0070.html>
  37. # [11:50] <RdeWilde> Is there a channel for HTTP specs on this server?
  38. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> RdeWilde: no, I don't think there is
  39. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> but Julian is often here
  40. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> Julian Reschke
  41. # [11:55] <RdeWilde> I don't know him.. guess he knows a lot about it?
  42. # [11:56] <jgraham> RdeWilde: Do you have a question or a bug report on the spec or?
  43. # [11:57] <RdeWilde> Mm almost, I'd like to know if this header http://pastebin.ca/1456429 is legal in the current specs.. I tried to figure out, but still not sure..
  44. # [11:57] <pimpbot> Title: pastebin - RdeWilde - post number 1456429 (at pastebin.ca)
  45. # [11:57] <RdeWilde> lol, nice
  46. # [11:59] <jgraham> RdeWilde: That seems a bit off topic for here. Although Julian or someone might answer. It would also be offtopic for #whatwg on freenode but offtopicness is generally more tolerated there and people might be able to point you in the direction of a more appropriate channel, at least
  47. # [11:59] <RdeWilde> jgraham; I'll give it a try, thanks
  48. # [11:59] <RdeWilde> No one there..?
  49. # [12:00] <RdeWilde> Ok, freenode.. thanks again :$
  50. # [12:13] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
  51. # [12:44] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2009/06/Text-Alternatives-in-HTML5
  52. # [12:44] <pimpbot> Title: WAI CG Consensus Resolutions on Text alternatives in HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
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  54. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009AprJun/0924.html
  55. # [13:11] <pimpbot> Title: File API, Editor's Draft II from Arun Ranganathan on 2009-06-11 (public-webapps@w3.org from April to June 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
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  58. # [13:24] <Lachy> grr. it seems the WAI CG failed to grasp the fundamental problems with longdesc. Suggesting it simply be replaced by aria-describedby which is effectively functionally identical doesn't solve any problems
  59. # [13:24] <Lachy> basically, all their solution does is rename longdesc to aria-describedby, without addressing any of the reasons why such a mechanism is a total failure
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  61. # [13:33] * jgraham wonders if rubys means this Thursday (i.e. today) or next Thursday
  62. # [13:36] <MikeSmith> jgraham: this week
  63. # [13:36] <MikeSmith> today
  64. # [13:37] <MikeSmith> Chris charied last week
  65. # [13:37] <MikeSmith> chaired
  66. # [13:41] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Sorry, I wasn't specific enough. I meant about summarising @summary
  67. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> jgraham: ah
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  69. # [13:58] <annevk> I don't see aria-describedby becoming much of a success
  70. # [13:58] <annevk> It seems way too complex for everyday use
  71. # [14:05] <jgraham> annevk: It seems that kind or argument holds less weight in PFWG than in WHATWG (or indeed in HTMLWG)
  72. # [14:08] <annevk> No wonder accessibility on the Web is such a success </sarcasm>
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  77. # [14:23] <Lachy> the real solution to the longdesc issue is
  78. # [14:23] <Lachy> <figure><img ...><legend>A Caption. (<a href=longdesc.html rel=longdesc>Read description</a>.)</legend></figure> (note: it's debatable whether rel=longdesc is needed or not)
  79. # [14:35] <hsivonen> I don't see how rel=anything is better than aria-describedby
  80. # [14:35] <hsivonen> at least aria-describedby stays on the same page
  81. # [14:38] <Lachy> hsivonen, the WAI CG's text alternatives document proposes to use aria-described by for linking to descriptions in external documents
  82. # [14:39] <Lachy> also, in the case where the long description can be in the same page, then it can just be included within the <figure> element. But for the cases where it makes sense for it to be separate, using a visible link that everyone can access is better
  83. # [14:39] <hsivonen> Lachy: how does one use an IDREF to link to external docs?
  84. # [14:40] <Lachy> they mentioned that as a known limitation in the document.
  85. # [14:40] <Lachy> I now see that they're propsing "and aria-describedby allows pointing to long text alternatives that are off of the page (by pointing to a link on the page)"
  86. # [14:41] <Lachy> so they would do <img aria-describedby=link> <a href=longdesc.html id=link>Read description</a>
  87. # [14:44] <anne> o_O
  88. # [15:51] <jgraham> Does Leif's email make sense to anyone? I think he is misunderstanding table taint but I guess I might be wrong
  89. # [15:52] <anne> I thought so too, but decided not to give in to xkcd "somebody is wrong" impulses
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  92. # [16:21] <Lachy> I thought when rubys first asked about the conformance of the <font> element in the '<font colour="blue">' thread, I thought it was meant as a rhetorical question to make a point, not as a serious topic of discussion.
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  94. # [17:00] <pimpbot> planet: Exposure of audio and video elements to assistive technologies <http://www.marcozehe.de/2009/06/11/exposure-of-audio-and-video-elements-to-assistive-technologies/>
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  99. # [18:00] <pimpbot> planet: beautiful fonts with @font-face <http://hacks.mozilla.org/2009/06/beautiful-fonts-with-font-face/>
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  101. # [18:04] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  102. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Matt_May
  103. # [18:10] <Zakim> -Matt_May
  104. # [18:10] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  105. # [18:10] <Zakim> Attendees were Matt_May
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  112. # [20:18] <anne> so my </sarcasm> thing from above ended up on twitter like this: https://twitter.com/mattmay/status/2118863203
  113. # [20:18] <pimpbot> Title: Twitter / Matt May: MONTHS of deliberation on ... (at twitter.com)
  114. # [20:19] <anne> and of course everyone is RT'ing it without checking sources
  115. # [20:19] * anne sighs
  116. # [20:23] <jgraham> I really don't understand that tweet. What point is being made?
  117. # [20:24] * jgraham notes again that twitter is not an appropriate venue for technical discusion
  118. # [20:26] <anne> I think the point is that we're a bunch of twenty year old assholes who shouldn't be taken seriously, or something
  119. # [20:27] <anne> jgraham, it seems more like a marketing thing to me
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  121. # [20:37] <jgraham> I guess if people didn't view twitter as a serious venue for discussions it wouldn't work as marketing
  122. # [20:38] <jgraham> Dunno what to do about that though since it clearly is viewed as a valid place to have technical discussions
  123. # [20:40] <anne> I suppose
  124. # [20:40] <anne> so is IRC though
  125. # [20:40] <anne> and maybe Wave if it works
  126. # [20:41] <Hixie> twitter is a fine place to have a technical discussion if you treat it like irc and have long multi-tweet lines
  127. # [20:41] <Hixie> :-)
  128. # [20:41] <jgraham> The dynmics of IRC (and Wave, I guess) are really different to twitter
  129. # [20:41] <gavin> Wave?
  130. # [20:42] <anne> that thing Google announced
  131. # [20:42] <jgraham> Becuse people don't do what Hixie said. They send individual short messages
  132. # [20:42] <jgraham> It encourages pith rather than content
  133. # [20:42] <jgraham> It is also almost impossible to follow a conversation
  134. # [20:42] <anne> also creativity
  135. # [20:43] <anne> really?
  136. # [20:43] <anne> maybe if you're not on twitter yourself it is
  137. # [20:44] <Hixie> it's almost impossible to follow conversations that you're not part of
  138. # [20:44] <Hixie> it's like trying to follow a conversation on irc where the two people are speaking into two different very noisy chat rooms
  139. # [20:44] <jgraham> anne: I don't think the type of creativity it fosters is conducive to useful discussion
  140. # [20:45] <jgraham> Sometimes arbitry limits are great. Sometimes they are destructive
  141. # [20:45] <anne> works fine for me
  142. # [20:46] <anne> but if something better comes along I'll happily switch
  143. # [20:52] <jgraham> Anyway Matt May's latest tweet is complete nonsense and I don't think he could defend most of the implications. But it is almost impossible to imagine how you can address all the points
  144. # [20:52] <jgraham> on twitter
  145. # [20:53] <jgraham> and end up with a greater degree of shared understanding than you started with
  146. # [20:54] <jgraham> (actually I doubt he even _meant_ most of the implications. But he was limited by the medium)
  147. # [21:06] * anne tries it anyway
  148. # [21:21] <pimpbot> changes: Fix a couple of leftover mistakes from the <eventsource> days. (credit: mjs) (whatwg r3221) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0072.html>
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  150. # [21:40] <shelleyp> I've posted a note about the WAI CG Consensus Resolutions on Text alternatives in HTML 5 document in the HTML WG email list. Hopefully we can discuss the document together in the one spot, rather than fragmented across Twitter and IRC
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  160. # [23:52] <pimpbot> changes: "Vaguely clarify event loop mechanics for web workers. (whatwg r3222)" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0074.html>
  161. # Session Close: Fri Jun 12 00:00:00 2009

The end :)