/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-06-12 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Fri Jun 12 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:22] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 6608] please undeprecate <center> for older browsers <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jun/0048.html>
  4. # [00:27] * Quits: annevk (opera@94.210.210.44) (Ping timeout)
  5. # [00:30] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@69.140.1.234) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  6. # [00:35] * Joins: maddiin (mc@87.185.214.62)
  7. # [00:38] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.156.236.4) (Client exited)
  8. # [00:39] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.156.236.4)
  9. # [01:28] <anne> has http://schepers.cc/?p=133 been discussed somewhere? I wonder if I should point out that XML parsers are about as complex as HTML parsers
  10. # [01:28] <pimpbot> Title: Reinventing Fire Blog Archive Platform Games (at schepers.cc)
  11. # [02:03] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  12. # [02:06] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Ping timeout)
  13. # [02:23] <Dashiva> "mistakes in casing for element and attribute names will be corrected"
  14. # [02:24] <Dashiva> Case sensitivity sure adds nice features :)
  15. # [02:50] * Quits: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  16. # [02:51] * Quits: maddiin (mc@87.185.214.62) (Quit: maddiin)
  17. # [02:53] <pimpbot> changes: Clarify 'Referer' handling in general. Fix it for window.open() spcifically. (whatwg r3223) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0075.html>
  18. # [02:55] * Parts: billmason (bmason@69.30.57.229)
  19. # [03:23] <pimpbot> changes: typo (whatwg r3226) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0078.html> ** Clarify <frameset> parsing behaviour. (whatwg r3225) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0077.html> ** Clarify behaviour in the face of redirects. (whatwg r3224) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0076.html>
  20. # [04:15] * Quits: webben (benh@79.67.165.30) (Quit: leaving)
  21. # [04:53] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 6608] please undeprecate <center> for older browsers <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jun/0049.html>
  22. # [05:20] <shepazu> anne: I wasn't praising XML parsers over HTML parsers...
  23. # [05:21] <shepazu> Dashiva: what makes you think I don't like error correction?
  24. # [05:22] <Dashiva> I didn't say that?
  25. # [05:23] <Dashiva> Just that without the assumption that case sensitivity is correct, there's no reason why casing should be a mistake to begin with
  26. # [05:24] <shepazu> case folding is not as easy for those who don't have case folding in their language
  27. # [05:26] <shepazu> not that that's an argument against it...
  28. # [05:26] <Dashiva> That's true, XML in general gets other benefits
  29. # [05:27] <Dashiva> And if all element names were lowercase, you wouldn't have to guess either
  30. # [05:28] <shepazu> because of the case-folding quasi-solution of HTML5, it's limited to known languages, or those where all element/attribute names are lower case, which is not a feature
  31. # [05:30] <Dashiva> It pretends languages from shooting themselves in the foot with mixed case names
  32. # [05:30] <shepazu> lol... nice doublethink
  33. # [05:30] <shepazu> restriction is freedom!
  34. # [05:31] <Dashiva> Mixed case introduces the chance of getting the casing wrong, an error source that doesn't exist with lowercase only (or case insensitivity)
  35. # [05:31] <Dashiva> Is that a freedom you want?
  36. # [05:32] <shepazu> it is if the language already exists
  37. # [05:32] <Hixie> case sensitivity is a bucket of annoying worms that would have been much better left never opened, imho
  38. # [05:32] <Hixie> but it's about 19 years too late to worry about that
  39. # [05:32] <Hixie> in the case of html
  40. # [05:33] <Dashiva> shepazu: Would you introduce it in a new language?
  41. # [05:33] <Hixie> (case insensitivity, i mean)
  42. # [05:34] <shepazu> Dashiva: probably not
  43. # [05:34] <Hixie> (as in, being case sensitive and not doing case folding is far better)
  44. # [05:34] <shepazu> but I'm really lazy, so I don't like to press the shift key :)
  45. # [05:34] <Dashiva> An excellent attitude :)
  46. # [05:53] <pimpbot> changes: Fix an invariant description for the ImageData APIs. (whatwg r3228) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0080.html> ** Fix the garbage collection rules for ports to actually make sense, and add a note for authors urging them not to rely on the gc for ports. (whatwg r3227) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0079.html>
  47. # [07:31] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.207.11) (Ping timeout)
  48. # [07:34] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.207.11)
  49. # [08:52] * Joins: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167)
  50. # [09:41] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  51. # [09:41] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: Leaving)
  52. # [09:42] * Joins: aroben (aroben@99.191.194.227)
  53. # [09:43] * Joins: aroben_ (aroben@99.191.194.227)
  54. # [09:46] * Quits: aroben (aroben@99.191.194.227) (Ping timeout)
  55. # [09:51] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  56. # [09:58] <pimpbot> changes: update relationship to html4 (whatwg r3229) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0081.html>
  57. # [10:06] <pimpbot> planet: Web-based piano made possible by <Audio> tag <http://jonoscript.wordpress.com/2009/06/12/web-based-piano-made-possible-by-audio-tag/>
  58. # [10:14] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
  59. # [10:51] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38)
  60. # [10:52] <anne> You did say: "HTML uses a much more complicated parsing that defines error recovery behavior for things like missing quotes around the attribute values, case insensitivity, and non-well-formed markup, ..."
  61. # [10:52] <anne> Having implemented both an XML and HTML parser, I tend to disagree that one is more complicated than the other
  62. # [10:54] <anne> For instance, when an HTML parser does "error correction" an XML parser still needs to have the exact same state to discover the error, but it has to report it instead. Whether after you detect you report or proceed is about the same complexity wise.
  63. # [10:54] <jgraham> anne: arguably HTML parsing is more complex to understand than XML parsing. But I think what people really mean is that XML parsing if you ignore the little used features that cause 90% of the difficulty is easier to understand than HTML parsing considering all the features
  64. # [10:54] <jgraham> e.g. if you dumped DTDs
  65. # [10:55] <jgraham> then XML would be much more usable
  66. # [10:55] <jgraham> (but still not sutiable for the web obviously)
  67. # [10:55] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58) (Client exited)
  68. # [10:56] <jgraham> s/usable/easy to parse/
  69. # [10:56] <anne> If XML is allowed to dump DTDs for the sake of argument I'd like to dump a whole lot of complexity from HTML parsers as well for argument sake; otherwise it's an unfair comparison
  70. # [10:56] <jgraham> Sure.
  71. # [10:57] <jgraham> (This is hy is would be nice if there was some transitional path to a format that had non fatal errors, no DTDs and less weird edge cases than HTML)
  72. # [10:58] <anne> (I have a proposal for exactly that.)
  73. # [10:59] <jgraham> (Right, coming up with the format isn't the hrad bit, it's the transitional path that's the hard bit)
  74. # [10:59] <jgraham> *hard
  75. # [11:01] <anne> It's fully backwards compatible
  76. # [11:11] * Quits: aroben_ (aroben@99.191.194.227) (Ping timeout)
  77. # [11:14] * Joins: annevk (opera@94.210.210.44)
  78. # [11:21] * Joins: aroben_ (aroben@99.191.194.227)
  79. # [11:29] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 6999] Adding tag <NSFW> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jun/0050.html>
  80. # [11:34] * Quits: aroben_ (aroben@99.191.194.227) (Ping timeout)
  81. # [12:01] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: Leaving)
  82. # [12:14] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
  83. # [12:30] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58)
  84. # [12:32] <hsivonen> the tokenizers are of comparable complexity
  85. # [12:32] <hsivonen> then HTML has a more complex tree builder
  86. # [12:32] <hsivonen> and XML has the namespace layer
  87. # [12:32] <hsivonen> (assuming you already dropped DTD stuff from the tokenizer for the sake of argument :-)
  88. # [12:33] <anne> mwaha
  89. # [14:02] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  90. # [14:07] <pimpbot> planet: Validator.Nu on GCJ <http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/06/12/Validator-Nu-on-GCJ>
  91. # [14:10] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Client exited)
  92. # [14:13] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  93. # [14:29] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6999] Adding tag <NSFW>" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jun/0051.html>
  94. # [14:38] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  95. # [15:32] * Quits: anne (annevk@94.210.210.44) (Client exited)
  96. # [15:32] * Joins: anne (annevk@94.210.210.44)
  97. # [15:42] <shepazu> anne, if you want to correct the public record, you are free to comment on my blog
  98. # [15:42] <shepazu> bbiab
  99. # [15:42] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Core Breach)
  100. # [16:00] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
  101. # [16:17] * Joins: billmason (bmason@69.30.57.90)
  102. # [16:20] * Quits: annevk (opera@94.210.210.44) (Quit: annevk)
  103. # [16:31] * Joins: maddiin (mc@87.185.198.227)
  104. # [16:32] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@69.140.1.234)
  105. # [16:45] * Joins: aroben (aroben@209.116.40.3)
  106. # [16:45] * Parts: rubys1 (rubys@75.182.92.38)
  107. # [16:45] * Joins: aroben_ (aroben@209.116.40.3)
  108. # [16:48] * Quits: aroben_ (aroben@209.116.40.3) (Connection reset by peer)
  109. # [16:48] * Quits: aroben (aroben@209.116.40.3) (Ping timeout)
  110. # [17:43] * Quits: jwatt (roslea@70.144.138.35) (Client exited)
  111. # [17:49] * Joins: anne-m (565a461c@64.62.228.82)
  112. # [18:15] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@69.140.1.234) (Ping timeout)
  113. # [18:36] * Quits: anne-m (565a461c@64.62.228.82) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  114. # [18:37] * tlr is now known as tlr-running
  115. # [18:56] * Joins: myakura (myakura@114.145.149.188)
  116. # [19:14] * Joins: annevk (opera@94.210.210.44)
  117. # [19:54] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@69.140.1.234)
  118. # [19:55] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@69.140.1.234) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  119. # [19:56] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  120. # [19:58] * tlr-running is now known as tlr
  121. # [20:10] * Quits: myakura (myakura@114.145.149.188) (Quit: Leaving...)
  122. # [20:14] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  123. # [20:16] * Joins: adele (adele@17.246.17.54)
  124. # [20:31] * Joins: DanC (connolly@128.30.52.30)
  125. # [21:01] <pimpbot> changes: Be clearer that Content-Type headers are honoured for <video>. (whatwg r3231) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0083.html> ** Mention that getImageData() might return different pixel data than you set, due to premultiplying. (whatwg r3230) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0082.html>
  126. # [21:31] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6999] Adding tag <NSFW>" (3 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jun/0052.html>
  127. # [21:33] <Philip> "Why would we add NSFW if we haven't added or even thought about <lol>,<lmao>,<wtf> or <oh>" - those sound like pretty good ideas to me
  128. # [21:37] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.156.236.4) (Quit: Adios intarwebs.)
  129. # [21:38] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.156.236.4)
  130. # [21:39] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.156.236.4) (Quit: Adios intarwebs.)
  131. # [21:40] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.156.236.4)
  132. # [21:58] * Joins: jwatt (roslea@70.144.138.35)
  133. # [22:01] <pimpbot> changes: Clarify exactly what kind of .wav file is expected to be supported. (whatwg r3232) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0084.html>
  134. # [22:23] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  135. # [23:28] * Quits: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  136. # [23:32] <pimpbot> changes: copy/paste error (whatwg r3233) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0085.html>
  137. # [23:34] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  138. # [23:59] * Parts: billmason (bmason@69.30.57.90)
  139. # Session Close: Sat Jun 13 00:00:00 2009

The end :)