/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-06-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jun 15 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  6. # [00:57] * Topic is '"Bringing Web standards back to reality?" (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/)'
  7. # [00:57] * Set by MikeSmith on Thu Apr 30 09:21:00
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  11. # [02:57] * Topic is '"Bringing Web standards back to reality?" (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/)'
  12. # [02:57] * Set by MikeSmith on Thu Apr 30 09:21:00
  13. # [03:14] <pimpbot> changes: v2 notes for dnd (whatwg r3249) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0107.html>
  14. # [03:44] <pimpbot> changes: xref fix (whatwg r3251) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0109.html> ** make some notes of v2 suggestions. (whatwg r3250) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0108.html>
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  23. # [08:15] <pimpbot> changes: "h:tml; pulled upstream schema change that adds pubdate attribute to article element; added remaining attribute descriptions for article and section elements" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0111.html>
  24. # [08:45] <pimpbot> changes: Remove ondataunavailable, since we got rid of it some time ago it seems. (whatwg r3252) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0112.html>
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  29. # [08:52] <zcorpan> test
  30. # [08:53] <zcorpan> Philip: do you want to search for pages that have &foo= in an attribute value where foo is one of AElig,AMP,Aacute,Acirc,Agrave,Aring,Atilde,Auml,COPY,Ccedil,ETH,Eacute,Ecirc,Egrave,Euml,GT,Iacute,Icirc,Igrave,Iuml,LT,Ntilde,Oacute,Ocirc,Ograve,Oslash,Otilde,Ouml,QUOT,REG,THORN,Yacute,aacute,acirc,acute,aelig,agrave,amp,aring,atilde,auml,brvbar,ccedil,cedil,cent,copy,curren,deg,divide,eacute,ecirc,egrave,eth,euml,frac12,frac14,frac34,gt,iacute,ici
  31. # [08:53] <zcorpan> rc,iexcl,igrave,iquest,iuml,laquo,lt,macr,micro,middot,nbsp,not,ntilde,oacute,ocirc,ograve,ordf,ordm,oslash,otilde,ouml,para,plusmn,pound,quot,raquo,reg,sect,shy,sup1,sup2,sup3,szlig,thorn,times,uacute,ucirc,ugrave,uml,uuml,yacute,yen,yuml ?
  32. # [08:54] <zcorpan> (case-sensitively)
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  38. # [10:22] <Philip> zcorpan: No
  39. # [10:23] <Philip> zcorpan: but I can search for pages that have &foo= anywhere in their response
  40. # [10:23] <zcorpan> Philip: ok, that's good too
  41. # [10:25] <anne> can't you just make a long regexp that lists all the alternatives?
  42. # [10:26] <Philip> anne: I can't make a long regexp that only matches inside attribute values
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  44. # [11:05] <zcorpan> Philip: any results yet? :)
  45. # [11:17] <Philip> zcorpan: Oops, I forgot about it
  46. # [11:18] <Philip> zcorpan: http://philip.html5.org/data/entities-without-semicolon-followed-by-equals.txt
  47. # [11:18] <pimpbot> Title: 狗狗搜索-功夫 (at philip.html5.org)
  48. # [11:19] <Philip> That's not the title, silly pimpbot
  49. # [11:20] <zcorpan> Philip: thanks
  50. # [11:31] * zcorpan ponders
  51. # [11:35] <zcorpan> Philip: it's hard to process when the data has new lines and each new page is not identified by something
  52. # [11:36] <zcorpan> Philip: could you emit an extra line break between each result maybe?
  53. # [11:40] <Philip> zcorpan: The data doesn't have newlines, unless I'm misunderstanding
  54. # [11:41] <Philip> Each line is just url, tab, line-of-content
  55. # [11:42] <Philip> so I'm not sure what the problem is
  56. # [11:45] <anne> split on lines, then on tab, then do the regexp on the second bit
  57. # [11:45] <anne> fairly trivial in Python :)
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  59. # [11:48] <zcorpan> Philip: sorry, the problem was opera being silly and wrapping the lines
  60. # [11:50] <anne> are you sure that's not you?
  61. # [11:50] <Philip> zcorpan: Ah
  62. # [11:50] <anne> e.g. by pressing Ctrl+F11
  63. # [11:51] <zcorpan> anne: what's ctrl+f11? fit-to-width?
  64. # [11:52] <anne> yes
  65. # [11:53] <zcorpan> i don't have fit-to-width enabled
  66. # [11:53] <zcorpan> we split lines after a certain amount of characters or pixels, i think
  67. # [11:53] <anne> oh, it seems at some point it wraps regardless
  68. # [11:54] <zcorpan> when copying from firefox and pasting into smultron, i still get linebreaks in the data in smultron
  69. # [11:54] <zcorpan> seemingly at non-ascii characters
  70. # [11:55] * Philip suggests using something like curl/wget rather than copy-and-paste
  71. # [11:55] <Philip> because then it's less likely to go confusingly wrong :-)
  72. # [12:10] <anne> Firefox has c&p issues
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  81. # [13:27] <zcorpan> <span class="resultlink">http://www.wirtualny.sopot.pl/szukaj/?qt=alejaja&zw=1&nm=10&reg=0</span>
  82. # [13:28] <anne> just the one?
  83. # [13:43] <zcorpan> anne: it's interesting because is has &reg= *in content* and expects it to be text
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  86. # [14:56] * anne wonders why rubys is intentionally not asking about all the other things
  87. # [14:56] <anne> all the questions about whether the rest of the WG thinks <font color> should be conforming or not confuses me a lot
  88. # [14:58] <Lachy> the font color thread has turned into a bikeshed, despite the fact that we already argued about and decided to remove <font> entirely from conforming HTML5 in all cases a year or two ago.
  89. # [14:59] <jgraham> It seems we are now allowed to talk about <font size> too, otherwise the Google example is impermissible
  90. # [14:59] <anne> technically we've only decide to publish a bunch of drafts so everything is open for discussion
  91. # [15:00] <anne> and that part is fine
  92. # [15:00] <anne> I just have the feeling we're filling in some kind of puzzle where only rubys has the reference
  93. # [15:01] <Philip> I'm assuming the idea is to derive some general principle in a bottom-up way by examining a specific case so people don't get lost in the generalities
  94. # [15:01] <jgraham> So instead we get lost in the specifics?
  95. # [15:01] <anne> dunno, I just get lost because I realize this cannot be possible the real question
  96. # [15:02] <jgraham> It does feel like we are being asked to play along some game where we haven't been told the rules. I duon't know if it is intentional that it should feel like that but it does.
  97. # [15:02] <anne> s/possible//
  98. # [15:02] <anne> jgraham, exactly
  99. # [15:03] <Lachy> I thought it was just a rhetorical question at first. Then people started discussing it legitimately
  100. # [15:03] <hsivonen> anne: It's pretty clear that <font color> is a rhetorical trap
  101. # [15:03] <anne> I'm not sure it's a trap
  102. # [15:05] <anne> at least, not intentionally so; in the past rubys has done similar things (e.g. focusing on the title) and he was not amused by the accusation of playing games, though it certainly felt that way
  103. # [15:05] <hsivonen> well, it's a thing where what you say will probably be generalized against something else you say
  104. # [15:05] <Philip> If people disagree on whether <font color> should be conforming, it indicates some fundamental disagreements that are largely independent of issues like accessibility, and the discussion might result in agreement on arguments that can be similarly applied to issues like @summary
  105. # [15:05] <jgraham> It seems quite trap-like. Although clearly I proded at it directly
  106. # [15:05] <Philip> or something like that
  107. # [15:06] <anne> Philip, yeah, but I'd rather we do not have to infer the intentions all the time, but people just state them
  108. # [15:09] <jgraham> I think the problem might be that you state an opinion on specific topic A and agree that it is OK to solve A in way B. But then topic C comes along and you are told that B implies D even though you disagree with D. So you either end up with unhappy people or the tower collapses and you start again
  109. # [15:09] <jgraham> Which is basically what hsivonen said
  110. # [15:13] <anne> the other thing is, people realize the answer has implications
  111. # [15:19] <zcorpan> "In fact, though HTML5 is not yet done, SVG inline in text/html already works in special experimental builds of Firefox and Opera" - http://schepers.cc/?p=133
  112. # [15:19] <pimpbot> Title: Reinventing Fire Blog Archive Platform Games (at schepers.cc)
  113. # [15:20] <zcorpan> wonder which build of Opera
  114. # [15:21] * hsivonen wondered, too
  115. # [15:21] <anne> you could ask ed
  116. # [15:22] <anne> ed_work, hey, we have SVG in text/html support?
  117. # [15:26] <zcorpan> shepazu: ^
  118. # [15:28] <zcorpan> anne: v.nu already has a message grouping feature
  119. # [15:29] <zcorpan> anne: making it just one message would make it harder to fix since you have to validate several times to find all instances
  120. # [15:30] <anne> it could say multiple instance of font elements
  121. # [15:30] <anne> searching for <font within your file is not rocket science
  122. # [15:31] <zcorpan> what's the benefit over what v.nu does now?
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  124. # [15:31] <anne> cognitive load is less
  125. # [15:32] <zcorpan> would you do this for just font or other kinds of errors too?
  126. # [15:32] <anne> depends on the type I suppose
  127. # [15:33] <anne> <center> is pretty much the same
  128. # [15:33] <anne> bunch of bgcolor attributes on <td> too
  129. # [15:34] <zcorpan> it says "The font element is obsolete" - same for center. it seems useful to highlight each occurrence
  130. # [15:34] <zcorpan> if you click the "group messages" button, it will be just one such message
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  135. # [15:37] <anne> even when grouped it still shows "Error: Attribute size not allowed on element font at this point."
  136. # [15:38] <zcorpan> that seems like a bug
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  138. # [15:38] <zcorpan> since <font size> i valid html4 transitional
  139. # [15:39] <anne> regardless, if you tell me <font> is obsolete you don't need to tell me <font size> is also obsolete :)
  140. # [15:41] <zcorpan> hsivonen: add size, color and face to the schema for font
  141. # [15:45] <anne> what if I have <font x>
  142. # [15:45] <zcorpan> then it will whine about x
  143. # [15:45] <anne> that seems wrong
  144. # [15:46] <zcorpan> which seems fine since it's probably a typo for size, color or face
  145. # [15:46] <anne> if something bigger is already wrong it does not make sense to also complain about that
  146. # [15:46] <zcorpan> why not?
  147. # [15:46] <anne> because then i might waste time on fixing typos rather than addressing the issue
  148. # [15:47] <zcorpan> depends on whether you care about the fact that font is obsolete or whether you just wonder why your text isn't red
  149. # [15:47] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: the current schema doesn't contain the complete content models for the obsolete elements. I assigned an issue to myself to add them
  150. # [15:47] <pimpbot> changes: h:tml; fixed problem that was preventing attribute descriptions for ins and del elements from getting picked up correctly <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0113.html>
  151. # [15:47] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: ok
  152. # [15:48] <anne> presumably the goal is to get conforming markup
  153. # [15:48] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: once those are added, it will prevent those redundant messages from being reported
  154. # [15:49] <anne> can you just say that every attribute is allowed on <font>?
  155. # [15:49] <anne> just like with <embed>
  156. # [15:50] <hsivonen> I just tried adding face, size and color, but I forgot that the file moved in svn
  157. # [15:50] <hsivonen> trying again now
  158. # [15:50] <zcorpan> anne: getting conforming markup might not be the goal for everyone
  159. # [15:51] <anne> given past experience I'd say that it's the majority goal of people using validators
  160. # [15:52] <zcorpan> i've seen people being happy when they've fixed their unintentional mistakes
  161. # [15:52] <hsivonen> the great thing about having tens of thousands of test cases is that even a permille level of failure means analyzing tens of test cases
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  164. # [16:11] <zcorpan> Hixie: the gray background and bottom border should not be present in print media (it shows up on every page in the pdf)
  165. # [16:15] <hsivonen> print style sheets are like invisible metadata
  166. # [16:30] <zcorpan> Hixie: the content model diagram is pure black in the pdf
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  168. # [16:34] <anne> and printing kills trees
  169. # [16:39] <jgraham> anne: Depending on the paper source the net change in number of trees may not be negative
  170. # [16:39] <jgraham> Although there could be other side effects
  171. # [16:39] <zcorpan> Hixie: you should maybe add a rule that prevents page break between the h4 and dl.element
  172. # [16:40] <anne> jgraham, planting trees has short term negative impact iirc
  173. # [16:42] <jgraham> anne: I would guess that replacing mature trees with young ones is bad. But you should probably also consider the effect of providing employment to the local population relative to other possible ways that they could find work
  174. # [16:43] <anne> see e.g. http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2006/dec/15/ethicalliving.lifeandhealth
  175. # [16:43] <pimpbot> Title: Planting trees to save planet is pointless, say ecologists | Environment | The Guardian (at www.guardian.co.uk)
  176. # [16:46] * Parts: annevk (opera@94.210.210.44)
  177. # [16:51] <zcorpan> Hixie: the input table is cropped in the pdf
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  179. # [16:55] <pimpbot> planet: open video codecs and quality <http://hacks.mozilla.org/2009/06/open-video-codecs-and-quality/>
  180. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> Pursuing conformance solutions for the N-body gravitational system known as "the Web" (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/)
  181. # [17:21] * MikeSmith changes topic to 'Pursuing conformance solutions for the N-body gravitational system known as "the Web" (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/)'
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  189. # [18:34] <zcorpan> hmm maybe i should put DOMTokenList/DOMStringList in web dom core
  190. # [18:40] <anne> and DOMStringMap and the other one too?
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  197. # [19:48] <pimpbot> changes: "h:tml; fixed placement of attribute descriptions for command and button elements" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0115.html>
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  199. # [20:00] <zcorpan> hmm, html4 requires authors to specify widths in their tables
  200. # [20:01] <zcorpan> "In order for a user agent to format a table in one pass, authors must tell the user agent: ..."
  201. # [20:02] <zcorpan> and "If any of the columns are specified in relative or percentage terms (see the section on calculating the width of columns), authors must also specify the width of the table itself."
  202. # [20:03] <zcorpan> it seems like the tfoot element is also required
  203. # [20:03] <zcorpan> "TFOOT must appear before TBODY within a TABLE definition"
  204. # [20:05] <zcorpan> "When it is necessary to single out a column (e.g., for style information, to specify width information, etc.) within a group, authors must identify that column with a COL element." - aha, depends on author intent
  205. # [20:34] <anne> (re the question about SVG in text/html earlier; we do not have that yet)
  206. # [20:45] <jgraham> zcorpan: I always read the tfoot language as meaning "if used tfot must appear before tbody". But with terrible wording
  207. # [20:58] <zcorpan> http://www.cssquirrel.com/2009/06/15/comic-update-html5-stubborness-and-snogging/
  208. # [20:58] <pimpbot> Title: CSSquirrel : Comic Update: HTML5 Stubborness and Snogging: Kyle Weems (at www.cssquirrel.com)
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  210. # [21:10] <rubys> hsivonen: http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/2009/06/15/Invoking-HtmlParser-from-C
  211. # [21:10] <pimpbot> Title: Sam Ruby: Invoking HtmlParser from C++ (at www.intertwingly.net)
  212. # [21:18] <pimpbot> changes: collecting reference urls... (whatwg r3253) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0116.html>
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  217. # [21:40] <zcorpan> aroben: i'm tentatively dropping DOMStringList in web dom core
  218. # [21:41] <aroben> zcorpan: good to know
  219. # [21:41] <zcorpan> aroben: is it used for anything?
  220. # [21:41] <aroben> zcorpan: we have an implementation of it in WebKit for implementing HTML 5's dynamic application cache entries
  221. # [21:41] <aroben> zcorpan: but those have been removed from HTML 5
  222. # [21:41] <aroben> zcorpan: so we will soon be removing our implementation of DOMStringList, I expect
  223. # [21:42] <aroben> zcorpan: I prefer "contains" to "has" regardless
  224. # [21:42] <zcorpan> aroben: i was pondering about just renaming DOMTokenList to DOMStringList
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  226. # [21:48] <pimpbot> changes: Rename DOMTokenList.has() to .contains() for consistency with DOMStringList. (whatwg r3255) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0118.html> ** Make DOMTokenList be sorted by the underlying string only. (whatwg r3254) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0117.html>
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  230. # [22:18] <pimpbot> changes: mark the points where we are implying the existence of an Interaction Events spec, so that once it exists we can do the cross-refs. (whatwg r3257) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0120.html> ** fill in the obsolete features sections a bit (still lots more to add). (whatwg r3256) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0119.html>
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  233. # [22:49] <pimpbot> changes: "h:tml; fixed handling of attribute descriptions for audio and video elements" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0122.html>
  234. # [22:57] <pimpbot> planet: 3D transforms in Firefox 3.5 - the isocube <http://hacks.mozilla.org/2009/06/3d-transforms-isocube/>
  235. # [23:20] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  236. # [23:26] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.156.236.4)
  237. # [23:41] * Quits: rubys (rubys@75.182.92.38) (Ping timeout)
  238. # [23:49] <pimpbot> changes: yup, someone complained... (whatwg r3258) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jun/0123.html>
  239. # [23:59] * Quits: annevk (opera@94.210.210.44) (Quit: annevk)
  240. # Session Close: Tue Jun 16 00:00:00 2009

The end :)