/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-07-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 08 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  5. # [00:23] <karl> http://twitter.com/nicholasjon/status/2514560685
  6. # [00:23] <pimpbot> Title: Twitter / Nick Olejniczak: XHTML 1.0 defined a syntax ... (at twitter.com)
  7. # [00:23] <karl> >XHTML 1.0 defined a syntax. XHTML 2 defined a vocabulary. HTML 5 has a nice vocabulary, and I will write it using XHTML 1.0 syntax.
  8. # [00:23] <Philip> s/XHTML 1.0/XML/
  9. # [00:28] <Dashiva> Philip: +1
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  17. # [01:56] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Microdata: Introduce a vocabulary for licensing works which maps to ccREL at the RDF layer. (whatwg r3370) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0034.html>
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  21. # [02:10] <karl> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Jul/0075.html
  22. # [02:10] <pimpbot> Title: Formal Objection to One vendor, One Veto from Shelley Powers on 2009-07-07 (www-archive@w3.org from July 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  23. # [02:11] * karl wonders about authoring tools market share
  24. # [02:11] <gavin> I wish less interesting stuff happened only on www-archive
  25. # [02:12] <karl> Something from November 2005
  26. # [02:12] <karl> http://elise.com/web/a/weblog_tools_market_update_february_2005.php
  27. # [02:12] <pimpbot> Title: elise.com: On the Job: Weblog Tools Market - Update February 2005 (at elise.com)
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  29. # [02:15] <karl> Report from 2007 about Authoring tool
  30. # [02:15] <karl> https://secure1.securityspace.com/es/s_survey/data/man.200706/webauth.html
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  34. # [02:56] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Prefer SOCKS proxies over HTTPS proxies. (credit: rc) (whatwg r3372) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0036.html> ** hixie: Simplify getElementsByName() for compatibility reasons. (whatwg r3371) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0035.html>
  35. # [03:26] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Make invalid &#x...; character references not get converted to U+FFFD, for consistency with literal invalid characters. (whatwg r3374) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0038.html> ** hixie: Correct the rules for rendering of carets in contenteditable. (whatwg r3373) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0037.html>
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  42. # [04:56] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Removing BibTeX vocabulary and related features. (whatwg r3376) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0040.html> ** hixie: Elaborate that .globalAlpha ignores Infinity and NaN values. (whatwg r3375) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0039.html>
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  46. # [05:55] <pimpbot> planet: video - more than just a tag <http://hacks.mozilla.org/2009/07/video-more-than-just-a-tag/> ** HTML 5 Parsing <http://ejohn.org/blog/html-5-parsing/>
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  49. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/introducing-google-chrome-os.html
  50. # [08:02] <pimpbot> Title: Official Google Blog: Introducing the Google Chrome OS (at googleblog.blogspot.com)
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  60. # [09:27] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Define the relationship of WebSocket to HTTP and TCP better. (whatwg r3377) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0041.html>
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  65. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: looks like John Resig did a good announcement/writeup about html5.enable on his blog, so maybe you don't have to
  66. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> I'd thought about blogging it myself at the whatwg blog, but didn't want to steal your thunder
  67. # [10:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I noticed
  68. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> I hope you'll have time for a writeup of your own
  69. # [10:24] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I was planning on blogging about it on the whatwg blog, too
  70. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> please do if/when you got time
  71. # [10:24] <hsivonen> I guess now that the information is out, there's no point in waiting for review on comment end bang before blogging
  72. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> would be good to have a "making of..."/"lessons learned" sort of debrief
  73. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah
  74. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> everbody's using it already
  75. # [10:25] <hsivonen> "making of" will have to wait to another day
  76. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> OK
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  80. # [10:58] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Technically I forgot to actually allow the permitted DOCTYPEs. This isn't the best way to do it, but it'll do for now. Also, remove a duplicate paragraph. (whatwg r3379) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0043.html> ** hixie: Change the transition approach from 'downplayed error' to 'conforming with warning'. (whatwg r3378) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0042.html>
  81. # [10:58] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7089] New: CDATA escapes need to close upon --\s*!> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jul/0027.html>
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  98. # [12:58] <pimpbot> changes: "mike: reworked the definitions of different types of "character data" and what element "contents" are, to try to make things more clear; removed "Authors should not" admonitions about particular encodings; restate text about doctype vs. doctype.legacy in terms of document conformance (instead of authoring conformance); streamlined the definition of what a comment is; refined CSS stylesheet to make Notes more clearly identifiable" (2 messages in thre
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  103. # [13:57] <pimpbot> planet: HTML 5 Parser Lands in Gecko <http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ajaxian/~3/LM8eVZiGK7I/html-5-parser-lands-in-gecko>
  104. # [14:10] <karl> http://twitter.com/helenbaker/status/2530922876
  105. # [14:10] <pimpbot> Title: Twitter / Helen Baker: Can't believe that the 'we ... (at twitter.com)
  106. # [14:10] <karl> >Can't believe that the 'web design agency' my boyfriend's using will charge him for alt tags! As an 'extra SEO module'! Words fail me.
  107. # [14:10] <karl> http://twitter.com/helenbaker/status/2530941191
  108. # [14:10] <pimpbot> Title: Twitter / Helen Baker: And for adding H1, H2, etc ... (at twitter.com)
  109. # [14:10] <karl> >And for adding H1, H2, etc header tags! That's not SEO, that's basic web design! Even I know that and I'm a copywriter. Furious.
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  111. # [14:13] <hsivonen> karl: well, there's some Real World :-(
  112. # [14:14] <jgraham> time to get a new web design agency? (scare quotes implied)
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  114. # [14:17] <karl> hsivonen: yep
  115. # [14:19] <karl> hsivonen: it's what I'm trying to assess for a while… the view of people on Web technologies outside of our small community is not technical (merits or benefits) but the value is in monetization and business.
  116. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> cool to see that html5.enable made Ajaxian news alos
  117. # [14:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: working on getting it to the WHATWG blog RSN
  118. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> cool
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  120. # [14:35] <karl> html5.enable is cool. I wonder if people will develop more applications on top of it.
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  122. # [14:36] <karl> hsivonen: do you know if other people are using your parser? that would be interesting to have a list of apps using it
  123. # [14:37] <hsivonen> karl: some are listed on the parser's Web page
  124. # [14:37] <hsivonen> karl: there are likely others
  125. # [14:37] <karl> ah thanks.
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  128. # [14:53] <rubys> I know we voted previously on canvas... can anybody quickly find a link to that vote for me?
  129. # [14:54] <hsivonen> rubys: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/req-gapi-canvas/results
  130. # [14:54] <pimpbot> Title: Results of Questionnaire Accept requirement for immediate mode graphics a la canvas element? - Web-Based Straw-poll and Balloting System (at www.w3.org)
  131. # [14:54] <rubys> thanks!
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  133. # [15:43] <karl> I wonder if http://simon.html5.org/test/html/dom/dom-feature/001.htm is implemented somewhere
  134. # [15:43] <pimpbot> Title: DOMImplementation.hasFeature("HTML", "5.0") (at simon.html5.org)
  135. # [15:45] <karl> FAIL in Firefox 3.5, Safari 4, Opera 10
  136. # [15:51] * Joins: timeless_mbp (timeless@192.100.124.156)
  137. # [15:51] <timeless_mbp> hi
  138. # [15:52] <timeless_mbp> i'm curious about http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-html5-20090423/browsers.html#origin
  139. # [15:52] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
  140. # [15:52] <timeless_mbp> > The origin of a resource and the effective script origin of a resource are both either opaque identifiers or tuples consisting of a scheme component, a host component, a port component, and optionally extra data.
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  143. # [15:52] <timeless_mbp> one possible thing is that it's an "opaque identifier"
  144. # [15:52] <timeless_mbp> am i right in assuming that "opaque identifiers" are things which should not be shown to users?
  145. # [15:56] <timeless_mbp> "tuples consisting of a scheme component, a host component, a port component, and optionally extra data"
  146. # [15:56] <timeless_mbp> what sort of "extra data" might appear in those tuples/
  147. # [15:56] <timeless_mbp> and how long could a tuple be?
  148. # [15:57] <pimpbot> planet: Help Test HTML5 Parsing in Gecko <http://blog.whatwg.org/test-html5-parsing> ** <div>Help Test HTML5 Parsing in Gecko</div> <http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test-html5-parsing/>
  149. # [15:57] <timeless_mbp> would it, again, be a bad idea for a specification to require that a user agent be obligated by a specification to present the user with a hypothetically obscenely long tuple?
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  151. # [16:10] <takkaria> I don't hink the spec mandates user agents to present the user with any tuples
  152. # [16:12] <karl> http://simon.html5.org/test/html/dom/dom-feature/001.htm still gets a FAIL with Firefox nightly build.
  153. # [16:12] <pimpbot> Title: DOMImplementation.hasFeature("HTML", "5.0") (at simon.html5.org)
  154. # [16:13] <takkaria> not surprising really
  155. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10281477-2.html
  156. # [16:14] <pimpbot> Title: An epitaph for the Web standard, XHTML 2 | Webware - CNET (at news.cnet.com)
  157. # [16:17] <timeless_mbp> takkaria: there's a different spec which is mandating user agents present users with origins
  158. # [16:21] <Philip> "XHTML brought rigor to the loosey-goosey and slap-dash world of HTML, and it would have permitted developers to employ a broader range of computing engines called parsers to digest and process the XML, Smith said."
  159. # [16:21] <Philip> I wonder if Smith used those actual words
  160. # [16:21] <timeless_mbp> ask him
  161. # [16:21] <timeless_mbp> MikeSmith: did you say thta?
  162. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> timeless_mbp: no
  163. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> I never have used the word "loosey-goosey" in my life
  164. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> that I can recall
  165. # [16:22] <takkaria> "computing engines called parsers"?
  166. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> certainly I did not when I spoke to dude
  167. # [16:23] <MikeSmith> I think I used the word "whacky jacky"
  168. # [16:23] <Philip> (I presume the parts where they have explicit quote marks are more like real quotes)
  169. # [16:23] <MikeSmith> yeah
  170. # [16:24] * karl imagines MikeSmith saying "booky booty"
  171. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> I think that paraphrase came from when I was trying to say that while it's true there are probably more existing developer tools like XSLT engines built around off-the-shelf, work-alike XML parsers, we are now getting similar work-alike HTML parsers that we can build the same kind of processing tools around
  172. # [16:33] <MikeSmith> anyway, it's a decent article, as these things go
  173. # [16:35] <Julian> Mike: it's unfortunate it doesn't seem to explain the difference between XHTML and XHTML2.
  174. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> Julian: believe me, that's not for lack of trying
  175. # [16:38] <MikeSmith> I've been saying that I think I need to just dispense with trying to explain it and instead just draw pictures for people.
  176. # [16:39] <MikeSmith> or a comic strip
  177. # [16:40] <Julian> That sounds like a good plan.
  178. # [16:40] <karl> % echo "XHTML2" > xhtml2.txt
  179. # [16:40] <karl> % echo "XHTML" > xhtml.txt
  180. # [16:40] <karl> % diff xhtml.txt xhtml2.txt
  181. # [16:40] <karl> 1c1
  182. # [16:40] <karl> < XHTML
  183. # [16:40] <karl> ---
  184. # [16:40] <karl> > XHTML2
  185. # [16:42] <timeless_mbp> MikeSmith: yeah, as articles go it's indeed not bad
  186. # [16:42] <timeless_mbp> takkaria: so um...
  187. # [16:42] <timeless_mbp> were you nibbling enough to swallow my bait?
  188. # [16:43] <Dashiva> I'm not entirely convinced by the "XHTML 2, a technology intended to build a more powerful Web" line
  189. # [16:44] <Dashiva> Something that doesn't take web applications into account doesn't seem like it'd be more powerful, rather the opposite
  190. # [16:44] <Philip> I presume the idea is you'd include all the stuff like XForms too, for more applicationy stuff
  191. # [16:47] <Dashiva> I never saw anyone be called the _founder_ of a programming language before
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  195. # [16:54] <Philip> Dashiva: Like http://www.google.com/search?q=c+founder ?
  196. # [16:54] <pimpbot> Title: c founder - Google Search (at www.google.com)
  197. # [16:55] <MikeSmith> I did actually mention XForms to him, and tried to explain it, but I think I didn't explain in very articulately
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  199. # [16:56] <MikeSmith> I thikn I used the phrase "juggley wuggley" for that part
  200. # [16:58] <Dashiva> Philip: I see the commenters agree with me. "The founder? What is it, a cult? (actually I suppose it is!)"
  201. # [17:00] <Philip> Dashiva: Oh, I didn't actually read any of the links
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  203. # [17:18] <rubys> karl: I think you have your arrows backwards.
  204. # [17:32] * DanC pores over the various layers of detail in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=487949
  205. # [17:32] <pimpbot> Title: Invalid Bug ID (at bugzilla.mozilla.org)
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  209. # [18:03] <timeless_mbp> DanC: why?
  210. # [18:04] * timeless_mbp is confused by the last comment
  211. # [18:04] <DanC> there's all sorts of nifty stuff, from Java-to-C++ translation, mozilla build system, firefox performance, HTML 5 spec parsing issues, and so on
  212. # [18:05] <takkaria> timeless_mbp: I don't think I swallwed your bait, I stopped responding when I stoped having a vague idea of what you were talking about. :)
  213. # [18:09] <timeless_mbp> darn
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  218. # [18:58] <pimpbot> planet: Planet Additions: Class of 7/6/2009 <http://blog.mozilla.com/planet/2009/07/06/planet-additions-class-of-762009/>
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  225. # [19:58] <pimpbot> planet: Help Test HTML5 Parsing in Gecko <http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test-html5-parsing/>
  226. # [20:03] * tlr-run is now known as tlr
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  239. # [21:31] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Tweak the new warnings section. (whatwg r3380) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0046.html>
  240. # [21:59] <pimpbot> planet: <div>Help Test HTML5 Parsing in Gecko</div> <http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test-html5-parsing/> ** <div>An Unofficial Q&amp;A about the Discontinuation of the XHTML2 WG</div> <http://hsivonen.iki.fi/xhtml2-html5-q-and-a/>
  241. # [22:01] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Further tweak the new warnings section; remove the specific mention of <caption> as an alternative to summary='', describe what <a name> was for, and require that conformance checkers not call docs with warnings an unqualified 'valid'. (whatwg r3381) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0047.html>
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  247. # [22:59] <pimpbot> planet: Sending a message to all open windows/tabs using JavaScript <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1100336/sending-a-message-to-all-open-windows-tabs-using-javascript>
  248. # Session Close: Thu Jul 09 00:00:00 2009

The end :)