/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-07-14 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  46. # [03:40] <MikeSmith> http://www.satine.org/archives/2009/07/11/snow-stack-is-here/
  47. # [03:40] <pimpbot> Title: satine.org » Snow Stack is Here (at www.satine.org)
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  56. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pantos-http-live-streaming-01
  57. # [05:04] <pimpbot> Title: draft-pantos-http-live-streaming-01 - HTTP Live Streaming (at tools.ietf.org)
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  75. # [10:01] <pimpbot> planet: First Editors Draft of HTML5+RDFa Published <http://blog.digitalbazaar.com/2009/07/13/html5rdfa/> ** I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission <http://blog.halindrome.com/2009/07/ive-still-got-greatest-enthusiasm-and_08.html>
  76. # [10:04] <takkaria> wow
  77. # [10:04] <takkaria> "The organization with the primary responsibility for taking the web forward has two competing sets of activities. There's the browser-centric work - this includes HTML5, CSS, and the Rich Web Client Activity (HTML DOM stuff, Widgets, XMLHTTPRequest etc.). Then there's the web-centric work - this includes XML, XPath, Xinclude, XML Schema, RDF, OWL, etc. And while these sets of activities could be designed to dovetail together, the browser-centric work see
  78. # [10:04] <takkaria> XML Schema is web-centric?
  79. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> takkaria: depends on how you define "web", I guess
  80. # [10:05] * Quits: Philip (philip@92.243.11.39) (Ping timeout)
  81. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> especially if it means something different than the web you get to using browsers
  82. # [10:06] <takkaria> hmm
  83. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> but I'm probably the completely wrong person to be articulating what it is meant to mean
  84. # [10:07] <takkaria> that post also accuses HTML5 of simultaneously focusing entirely on the past and introducing new and untested concepts
  85. # [10:08] * Joins: Philip (philip@92.243.11.39)
  86. # [10:08] <hsivonen> takkaria: "Web-centric" in that blog post is awesome.
  87. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> yeah, use of that term in that way does on the face of it seem to be stretching things
  88. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> but I think part of it might be an argument that technologies that aren't directly supported in browsers are also part of the Web
  89. # [10:09] * hsivonen waits for shepazu to blog about Shane's webmandering :-)
  90. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> like, PHP is an important part of the Web
  91. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> I'm not sure who would argue with that
  92. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> even people who hate PHP
  93. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> which is a lot of people
  94. # [10:09] <shepazu> hsivonen: it's on its way, don't worry
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  96. # [10:10] <takkaria> if I had a blog I think I'd have to do a "Translation from XML-Speak to English of Selected Portions of Steve's blog"
  97. # [10:11] <hsivonen> takkaria: do you mean Shane's?
  98. # [10:11] <takkaria> uh, yeah
  99. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> anyway, fwiw, I added some additional feeds to Planet HTML5
  100. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> http://planet.html5.org
  101. # [10:12] <pimpbot> Title: Planet HTML5 (at planet.html5.org)
  102. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> I do have to say I like the use of the "I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission" quote
  103. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> we need more of that kind of stuff
  104. # [10:16] <hsivonen> grr. java.net.IDN is @since 1.6 only
  105. # [10:16] <hsivonen> but luckily, ICU4J should have a Punycode impl
  106. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: what is "@since"?
  107. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> if anybody has suggestions for other feed to add to Planet HTML5, please let me know
  108. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> *feeds
  109. # [10:18] * MikeSmith remembers back to when he used to be a native English speaker
  110. # [10:18] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: @since tags an API as existing since a given version of the package. in this case, the JDK
  111. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> I see
  112. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> so it's not usable with 1.5 JDK, I guess
  113. # [10:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: right. but ICU4J has what I need anyway
  114. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> Java seems to me to always be adding new APIs for stuff that Java is already has
  115. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> and then deprecating the existing stuff
  116. # [10:21] <hsivonen> At times, I wish Sun didn't add stuff that already has robust implementations in ICU4J or in various Apache.org offerings
  117. # [10:21] <hsivonen> for example: why on earth do we have to suffer logging APIs that aren't log4j?
  118. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I bet because some developers are really keen on writing logging APIs
  119. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> that's like the one thing they have always wanted to do all their lives
  120. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> and damn everybody else if there's a perfectly good logging API already
  121. # [10:22] <hsivonen> V.nu uses java.lang, java.io and the Collections API from the JDK
  122. # [10:23] <hsivonen> most other stuff in the JDK is bloat that has better-designed Open Source alternatives
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  125. # [10:25] <Philip> How many of the open source alternatives were built based on the experience of the older JDK alternatives?
  126. # [10:26] <Philip> (or, alternatively, did Sun introduce new alternatives that were inferior to already-existing open source ones?)
  127. # [10:27] <hsivonen> Philip: Sun introduced the logging API when log4j had existed forover and the world had figured out that log4j was the best thing all along and Commons Logging sucked
  128. # [10:27] <Philip> Ah, right
  129. # [10:27] <hsivonen> Philip: Sun introduced java.util.concurrent when Doug Lea's third-party package was the best thing out there
  130. # [10:27] <hsivonen> (as far as I can tell, java.util.concurrent is just a renaming of Doug Lea's package)
  131. # [10:28] <hsivonen> OK, I can see the point why java.util.concurrent should be part of the platform
  132. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> maybe now that it's all open, we'll see less of that happening
  133. # [10:29] <hsivonen> I doubt it. now it's GPL vs. Apache
  134. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> maybe Oracle will make it all available under another license
  135. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> I'm just trying to be optimistic here
  136. # [10:31] <pimpbot> planet: Canvas, accessibility and SVG <http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2009/canvas-accessibility-and-svg/>
  137. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> fwiw, I tried to add html5doctor to the feed list, but it breaks Venus so I removed it
  138. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> I don't know who owns that site, but if they listen here and want it added and can help me troubleshoot it, I am glad to add it
  139. # [10:35] * Joins: webben (benh@217.12.14.240)
  140. # [10:42] <takkaria> why do people want extensibility so badly?
  141. # [10:42] <takkaria> I mean, if someone wants to spec RDFa+HTML5, then they just go do that
  142. # [10:42] <takkaria> and find people to implement it
  143. # [10:43] <takkaria> or if they want an extra attribute on the <img> tag, they can just spec it and then get people to implement it
  144. # [10:43] <Philip> That's not very theoretically pure
  145. # [10:44] <takkaria> I guess it depends on your theory. :)
  146. # [10:44] <Philip> Also, developers don't seem to like it when people tell them to write code that fails on the validator
  147. # [10:45] <takkaria> you just get someone to support it on the validator
  148. # [10:45] <takkaria> like ARIA+HTML5 is
  149. # [10:45] <Philip> That makes hsivonen the gatekeeper
  150. # [10:46] <takkaria> he already is the gatekeeper. :)
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  152. # [10:46] <Philip> When people say they want distributed extensibility, I guess they mean they want a way to make hsivonen do what they want :-)
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  154. # [11:00] <hsivonen> Philip: bingo
  155. # [11:01] <Philip> Someone should set up an instance of Validator.nu where all the code and schemas are on a wiki and anyone can edit them
  156. # [11:01] <hsivonen> Philip: validator.nu already accepts custom schemas
  157. # [11:01] <hsivonen> Philip: allowing custom Java code would be AppEngine :-)
  158. # [11:02] <Philip> hsivonen: Entering custom schemas isn't very user-friendly or scalable - it's much better if someone can just add their schemas to the default :-)
  159. # [11:03] <hsivonen> Philip: you can bookmark the custom schema setup
  160. # [11:03] <hsivonen> Philip: my understanding is that the widget guys are using it that way
  161. # [11:04] * jgraham wonders why the HTML5+RDFa stuff seems to neglect all the work that Philip did
  162. # [11:05] <Philip> hsivonen: Hmm, that's not very convenient for sharing with other people - it's easy to say "go to http://html5.validator.nu and validate your page", but hard if you've got kilobytes of custom schema URLs
  163. # [11:05] <pimpbot> Title: Validator.nu (X)HTML5 Validator (at html5.validator.nu)
  164. # [11:05] <hsivonen> Philip: bit.ly :-)
  165. # [11:05] <Philip> hsivonen: That's ugly :-(
  166. # [11:05] <hsivonen> Philip: it's a *distributed* solution :-)
  167. # [11:06] <hsivonen> as opposed to building it all into V.nu monolithically :-)
  168. # [11:06] <Philip> hsivonen: Ooh, I know - you could point *.validator.nu at your server, then let people register names like "html5-plus-rdfa" and associate them with a schema setup, and then use http://html5-plus-rdfa.validator.nu
  169. # [11:06] <pimpbot> Title: Welcome to html5-plus-rdfa.validator.nu! Search Results Powered by OXiDE search ....radical results (TM) (at html5-plus-rdfa.validator.nu)
  170. # [11:06] <takkaria> validator.nu turns into Opera Unite
  171. # [11:07] <hsivonen> where did pimpbot get *that* from
  172. # [11:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: does pimpbot run in an evil DNS environment that monetizes typo by serving ads?
  173. # [11:08] <hsivonen> *typos
  174. # [11:08] <Philip> http://this-domain-really-does-not-exist-unless-i-am-incredibly-unlucky.com
  175. # [11:08] <Philip> Hmm
  176. # [11:08] <Philip> http://this-domain-really-does-not-exist-unless-i-am-incredibly-unlucky.nu
  177. # [11:08] * Philip shrugs
  178. # [11:09] <jgraham> http://foo.google.com/
  179. # [11:09] <pimpbot> Title: The Gigantic Orange Cream-Sicle Search Engine at SoGoSearch.com (at foo.google.com)
  180. # [11:09] <hsivonen> at least http://www.nic.nu/cgi-bin/drill.cfm?domainname=validator.nu looks right
  181. # [11:09] <pimpbot> Title: validator.nu Configuration (at www.nic.nu)
  182. # [11:10] <Philip> jgraham: ...
  183. # [11:12] * hsivonen wonders if reverse DNS labels are supposed to allow an initial dot, since DNS names strictly-speaking allow a trailing dot
  184. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the typo thing is a personal revenue-enhancing feature I added recently
  185. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> i'm glad to see it working
  186. # [11:14] * MikeSmith checks his bank account
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  189. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> hmm, I seriously don't know where pimpbot is getting that stuf
  190. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> he really has evolved
  191. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> I just pray that he still has enthusiasm and confidence in the mission
  192. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> and doesn't start turning of the life-support systems
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  196. # [12:08] <Philip> "jgraham wonders why the HTML5+RDFa stuff seems to neglect all the work that Philip did" - the work I did led to me writing a few tests which led to someone listing issues on http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-in-html-issues which people seem to agree need to be specified, so it's alright as long as the final specification does actually specify all those cases
  197. # [12:08] <pimpbot> Title: Rdfa-in-html-issues - RDFaWiki (at rdfa.info)
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  199. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> @rss http://html5doctor.com/feed/
  200. # [12:21] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: “Block-level” links in HTML 5 <http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/html5doctor/~3/a_McQhLJbHI/> ** Native Drag and Drop <http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/html5doctor/~3/Wg6icME9YYM/> ** Your questions answered #1 <http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/html5doctor/~3/HPKc6ls9lu8/> ** HTML 5 + XML = XHTML 5 <http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/html5doctor/~3/_RyQdiczAGg/> ** Designing a blog with (2 more messages)
  201. # [12:49] <karl> http://www.satine.org/archives/2009/07/11/snow-stack-is-here/
  202. # [12:49] <pimpbot> Title: satine.org » Snow Stack is Here (at www.satine.org)
  203. # [12:50] <karl> HTML5
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  215. # [13:35] <Duduman> Question:Is X3D considered being an HTML 5 3D web standard?
  216. # [13:37] * timelyx didn't think html5 was a class of standards
  217. # [13:38] <Duduman> (like ogg video)
  218. # [13:39] <hsivonen> Duduman: X3D is not an HTML5 standard
  219. # [13:39] <hsivonen> timelyx: the WHATWG copy of HTML 5 is a "Draft Standard"
  220. # [13:39] <hsivonen> ;-)
  221. # [13:40] <Duduman> Is there anything about HTML 5 containing 3D some how?
  222. # [13:40] <hsivonen> Duduman: there isn't
  223. # [13:40] <hsivonen> Duduman: some people have built 3D engines on top of the 2D canvas, though
  224. # [13:41] <hsivonen> Duduman: there's a 3D canvas being developed, but it's not normatively referenced from HTML 5
  225. # [13:41] <hsivonen> at least not yet
  226. # [13:41] <Duduman> But Video is
  227. # [13:41] <Duduman> Or is this a firefox decision ?
  228. # [13:42] <hsivonen> Duduman: the <video> element is in HTML 5.
  229. # [13:42] <hsivonen> Duduman: Ogg is not
  230. # [13:42] <Duduman> ooh
  231. # [13:42] <Duduman> ok
  232. # [13:42] <hsivonen> Duduman: Ogg/Theora/Vorbis is in Firefox 3.5, Chrome 3 and presumably in the version of Opera after 10
  233. # [13:43] <Duduman> so sth. like <3D> would be the equivalent of <video>
  234. # [13:43] <hsivonen> Duduman: there are two serious 3D contenders none of which uses markup
  235. # [13:44] <hsivonen> Duduman: there's an OpenGL ES-based 3D context for <canvas>
  236. # [13:44] <hsivonen> Duduman: and there's Google's scene graph-based O3D
  237. # [13:45] <Duduman> My main issue is getting 3D to Wikipedia
  238. # [13:45] <hsivonen> Duduman: we don't have a solution for that, yet
  239. # [13:45] <Duduman> Sth. like reading about a battle then being in it with moving the camera and everything
  240. # [13:46] <hsivonen> Duduman: both what Mozilla is pushing and what Google is pushing are geared towards heavy stuff like games--not simple stuff like rotating a model on a wiki page
  241. # [13:46] <Duduman> Mozilla is pushing OpenGL ES ?
  242. # [13:46] <hsivonen> Duduman: although mediawiki could have its own declarative format and render it using JS to Canvas 3D or O3D
  243. # [13:47] <hsivonen> Duduman: maybe "pushing" isn't the right word. But Mozilla is participating in Khronos on speccing something that could become the 3D context for <canvas>.
  244. # [13:50] * Philip imagines using X3D (or something based on it) could be more sensible than making up a new declarative format
  245. # [13:51] <Duduman> Yes that's what I was thinking
  246. # [13:52] <Duduman> I'll post a feature request on Mediawiki
  247. # [13:52] <Philip> (Either way you'd probably have to write JS to render it using the browser's imperative 3D API)
  248. # [13:52] <Duduman> don't know how to describe what needs doing
  249. # [13:52] <Philip> (or convince users to install X3D plugins, since several of those exist already)
  250. # [13:53] <Duduman> "Implementing 3D into Wikipedia"
  251. # [13:55] <Philip> You'd probably have to be a bit more specific than that :-)
  252. # [13:55] <Duduman> yep
  253. # [13:55] <Duduman> I'd rather not post it
  254. # [13:55] <Duduman> cause I don't know what's needed
  255. # [13:56] <timelyx> "i need something!"
  256. # [13:56] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Connection reset by peer)
  257. # [13:56] <timelyx> yeah... i need a pony
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  260. # [13:57] <timelyx> hsivonen: you local? i need lunch too :)
  261. # [13:57] <Philip> I expect there's lots of questions about e.g. who is going to create content, what tools they'll use to create and modify it, how people are going to use it, what features does it need to support, etc
  262. # [13:57] <timelyx> hsivonen: btw, "Drafts" are clearly a class of standards, that doesn't make HTML5 a class
  263. # [13:58] <Philip> timelyx: "HTML 5" is the new "XHTML", i.e. a term that denotes a whole range of concepts that often have very little to do with the technology named
  264. # [13:59] <Philip> e.g. HTML 5 includes everything about web applications and new browser features, just like XHTML includes semantic markup and proper CSS usage
  265. # [13:59] <hsivonen> timelyx: sorry, I already had lunch (and I already have dinner plans)
  266. # [13:59] <timelyx> no problem
  267. # [13:59] <hsivonen> timelyx: your lunch time is pretty late :-)
  268. # [13:59] <Philip> so it's the class consisting of everything anyone fancies sticking that label on :-)
  269. # [14:00] <timelyx> hsivonen: i had a midnight conf call
  270. # [14:00] <timelyx> so ...
  271. # [14:00] <hsivonen> timelyx: those suck :-(
  272. # [14:00] <timelyx> it wasn't bad, i got a sneak peak at cool software
  273. # [14:03] <timelyx> we also got to say "sure, we'll beta test this. today, tomorrow, asap"
  274. # [14:04] <Duduman> If someone could suggest something for Wikimedia to do post on #Wikimedia-tech
  275. # [14:05] <hsivonen> HTML 4.0 Strict, HTML 4.01 Strict, XHTML 1.0 Strict and XHTML 1.1 doctypes now validate as HTML5
  276. # [14:06] <hsivonen> (as in: just deployed a fix on V.nu)
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  313. # [18:07] <pimpbot> changes: "mike: reworded the "The HTML namespace and MIME types" section." (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0093.html> ** hixie: Define HTMLAllCollection for document.all. (Should we give it the [[Class]] HTMLCollection?) (whatwg r3409) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0091.html> ** hixie: fixup some of the domintro blocks for collections (whatwg r3408) <http
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  319. # [18:37] <pimpbot> changes: "mike: renamed the "HTML and XHTML documents" section to simply "Documents"" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0095.html>
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The end :)