/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-07-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 15 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  6. # [00:39] <MikeSmith> Hixie: thanks for the follow-up on #whatwg about WebSocket protocol and port 80. I guess I had the impression that a normal Web server running on port 80 could negotiate the upgrade of a client to a WebSocket connection. But I guess it will probably be the case that most WebSocket server processes aren't exactly full Web servers (Apache or IIS or whatever), but processes/applications that have a minimal http client built in?
  7. # [00:40] <MikeSmith> and will not the same-origin restriction prevent a Web application running on a normal Web server on port 80 from being able to communicate with a WebSocket application running on port 81?
  8. # [00:44] <Hixie> you can also have a normal Web server running on port 80 that can negotiate the upgrade of a client to a WebSocket connection
  9. # [00:44] <Hixie> both are supported
  10. # [00:44] <Hixie> websocket is its own independent protocol
  11. # [00:44] <Hixie> that happens to support being upgraded from http
  12. # [00:44] <Hixie> websocket does its own origin checking
  13. # [00:47] <MikeSmith> OK
  14. # [00:47] * MikeSmith re-reads the protocol spec
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  16. # [00:49] <MikeSmith> btw, had there ever been an RFC or IETF draft with an actual diagram in it?
  17. # [00:50] <MikeSmith> I mean, other than ascii diagrams
  18. # [00:50] <MikeSmith> is there some kind of prohibition against it?
  19. # [00:50] <MikeSmith> I guess it would have to be a URL pointing to diagram
  20. # [00:51] <Hixie> Julian would know
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  22. # [01:02] <MikeSmith> Julian: has there been any discussion about IETF allowing authors to use real HTML for authoring drafts, and then generating the plain-text version from the HTML?
  23. # [01:02] <MikeSmith> (instead of generating the HTML from plain text, as it seems to be done now)
  24. # [01:03] <Hixie> websocket is generated from html
  25. # [01:04] <MikeSmith> yea, I mean, with IETF actually publishing the real HTML
  26. # [01:04] <MikeSmith> with hyperlinks anywhere, and images, etc.
  27. # [01:05] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Radical.
  28. # [01:05] <Hixie> maybe they could get a real patent policy while you're at it :-)
  29. # [01:05] * gsnedders needs more RAM
  30. # [01:06] <gsnedders> So… much… paging…
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  35. # [01:27] <Philip> MikeSmith: I thought RFCs could be PostScript too (and some of the early ones were only PS and not transcribed to text), or something like that
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  41. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> Philip: yeah, I remember annevk or somebody pointing out the URL for an RFC that's actually a scanned image of a handwritten document (that looks like it was written on a cocktail napkin or something)
  42. # [02:01] <MikeSmith> anyway, the current publishing format that most (or all) drafts and RFCs are using seems to me at least to be lacking in the expressiveness (in terms of formatting, lack of real hypertext, lack of ability to include diagrams in the body of the actual draft) that one would normally expect to see in specifications.
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  44. # [02:02] <MikeSmith> Philip: I mean not just in standards documents, but in industry functional specifications
  45. # [02:04] <MikeSmith> I mean, in any of the product-development organizations I've worked in or had experience with, if I had handed a plain-text (or HTML generated from plain-text) specification to others for review, their reaction would pretty much be, Huh?
  46. # [02:05] <MikeSmith> because the norm is for specs to have rich formatting and decent diagrams, etc.
  47. # [02:06] <MikeSmith> anyway, I'll get off my soapbox
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  51. # [02:39] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: document.all uses HTMLAllCollection. Also, add a note about webkitPreservesPitch. (whatwg r3410) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0096.html>
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  60. # [03:39] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Add an example of a script moving nodes the parser is parsing. (whatwg r3411) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0097.html>
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  66. # [03:52] <MikeSmith> @planet
  67. # [03:52] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: Survivor: W3C <http://realtech.burningbird.net/semantic-web/semantic-web-issues-and-practices/survivor-w3c> ** First Editors Draft of HTML5+RDFa Published <http://blog.digitalbazaar.com/2009/07/13/html5rdfa/> ** Canvas, accessibility and SVG <http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2009/canvas-accessibility-and-svg/> ** Editors Draft of HTML5+RDFa <http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/07/13 (5 more messages)
  68. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> that "Survivor" post is good
  69. # [03:54] <MikeSmith> good use of photos
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  76. # [05:02] <MikeSmith> but the photos in that post mostly seem to show a lot of cooperation going on
  77. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> rowing a boat together, pulling on a rope together
  78. # [05:06] <MikeSmith> but if we're going to compare things to reality-TV shows, I pick "American Chopper"
  79. # [05:07] <MikeSmith> we have Paul Sr., Paul Jr., Mikey
  80. # [05:08] <MikeSmith> and some master mechanics and detailers doing cool stuff
  81. # [05:10] <MikeSmith> and sometimes Paul Sr. comes in and sees junior doing something he thinks is wrong and says, "goddammit, what the hell are you doing?"
  82. # [05:11] <MikeSmith> and Junior says, "Well, dad, we're building a chopper here."
  83. # [05:14] <MikeSmith> building a chopper
  84. # [05:15] <MikeSmith> and down the road are the SpaceX guys
  85. # [05:15] <MikeSmith> working on building a rocket
  86. # [05:17] <MikeSmith> and Junior and the crew reckon that's actually pretty cool
  87. # [05:18] <MikeSmith> and they say, "But here we build choppers."
  88. # [05:18] <MikeSmith> because choppers are pretty cool too
  89. # [05:20] <MikeSmith> I would really like to have me a chopper.
  90. # [05:20] <MikeSmith> I'd like a rocket too
  91. # [05:20] <MikeSmith> but right now, I'd gladly settle for just a pretty good chopper.
  92. # [05:40] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Correct mention of which step to jump to; change the way long text nodes are marked up in the examples. (whatwg r3412) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0098.html>
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  95. # [06:40] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: UTF-16 is LE on the web, not BE, according to IE. (whatwg r3413) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0099.html>
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  100. # [08:40] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7105] New: Default fallback behaviour for unsupported tags in browsers! <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jul/0033.html> ** [Bug 7103] New: Content-Language marked as non-conforming <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jul/0032.html> ** [Bug 7102] New: Permitted obsolete doctype compare "HTML" <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jul/0031.html>
  101. # [09:10] <pimpbot> changes: "mike: pull latest upstream schema changes; <table summary>, <img border>, <a name>, <script language> now conformant (with datatype-checking on border value and assertions-checking on language value); also, define the terms "document" and "HTML language"." (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0101.html>
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  108. # [10:41] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: ch/choff content attributes should have been char/charoff -- I should pay more attention when generating text like this... (whatwg r3415) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0103.html> ** hixie: Recommend SSIs for framesets. (whatwg r3414) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0102.html>
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  112. # [11:11] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Drop the 'applies to section' concept. (whatwg r3417) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0105.html> ** hixie: Define that document.bgcolor et al don't reflect for <frameset>. (whatwg r3416) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0104.html>
  113. # [11:14] <Julian> MikeSmith: that discussion (or similar ones) reccur
  114. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> Julian: which discussion?
  115. # [11:15] <Julian> MikeSmith: and actually, the "state of the art" is to author in xnl2rfc (see xml.resource.org), and submit both in XML and TXT, and, in parallel, publish in HTML privately (see specs on http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav)
  116. # [11:15] <pimpbot> Title: greenbytes WebDAV resources (at greenbytes.de)
  117. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> oh, yeah
  118. # [11:15] <Julian> MikeSmith: IETF document formant
  119. # [11:15] <Julian> formats
  120. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> yep, I'm just catching up here
  121. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> had been thinking about something else
  122. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> I would personally hope that the IETF would eventually also provide space for publishing HTML publicly at the IETF site
  123. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> the current format just seems kind of quaint at this point
  124. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> to me at least
  125. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> it kind of has some value as far as nostalgia, but hard to see what other benefits it is providing vs publishing full-fledged HTML
  126. # [11:18] <Julian> Many people are concerned with allowing arbitrary HTML (and so am I :-)
  127. # [11:19] <Julian> I recommend you join the discussion over on ietf-discuss (currently it's about the superiority of NROFF and Word for editing)
  128. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> well, I can see that not allowing arbitrary HTML does enforce greater consistency
  129. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> oh man, NROFF vs Word
  130. # [11:20] * MikeSmith checks the year on his calendar
  131. # [11:20] <Hixie> the main thing i find frustrating about text/plain is the lack of scripting capabilities
  132. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> no TeX advoicdate
  133. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> no TeX advocates?
  134. # [11:20] <Julian> sometimes
  135. # [11:20] * jgraham wwonders why HTML would imply "arbitary HTML"
  136. # [11:21] <Julian> and, Hixie, I would consider the lack of scripting a feature
  137. # [11:21] <Hixie> Julian: i know. i find that sad. :-(
  138. # [11:21] <Hixie> but to each his own
  139. # [11:21] <Julian> James: it doesn't imply that; but many think so and argue based on that
  140. # [11:22] <jgraham> Oh well if people are arguning based on false premises...
  141. # [11:22] <jgraham> wtf was that? "arguning"?
  142. # [11:22] <Julian> stability of the format comes up from time to time
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  144. # [11:23] <Julian> James: that's a keeper
  145. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> Julian: don't you think the current publishing format limits the expressiveness of the specs?
  146. # [11:24] <Julian> Mike: not really
  147. # [11:24] <Julian> Mike: relying too much on formatting, styles, and pictures isn't good either
  148. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> sure, if you rely on them too much, of course
  149. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> but I'm not talking about too much
  150. # [11:25] <Julian> Mike: the problem is where to draw the line once you allow it
  151. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> yep, exactly
  152. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> so IETF can have a pubrules checker that draws that line
  153. # [11:26] <Julian> The main issues with the current format are: (1) I18N (contact information, examples for I18N), (2) Usability (how to print, extracting metadata, display on small devices)
  154. # [11:26] <Julian> but the IETF has no paid people working on that; it's all volunteer, and requires a broad consensus for changes
  155. # [11:27] <Julian> this is hard to achieve if you have to argue with people still favoring nroff, Tex or Word :-)
  156. # [11:28] <jgraham> Ah the inertia of "broad consensus"
  157. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> yeah, understand
  158. # [11:28] <Julian> But, nothing we discuss here makes a difference; the only way to get there is to join the IETF and try to influence the process from within
  159. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> Julian: maybe I should write an Internet Draft spec'ing out a model for an HTML-based publishing system for the IETF
  160. # [11:30] <Julian> Mike: maybe. I recommend speaking to other IETF people who may be with you first.
  161. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> OK
  162. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> btw, while I'm thinking of it -- you have an HTTPbis f2f coming up soon, right?
  163. # [11:31] <Julian> Mike: and, btw, the current W3C format IMHO isn't perfect either; for instance, it seems to be extremely hard to extract reference information automatically.
  164. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> Julian: we are working on that in HTML5
  165. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> HTML5 will solve that particular problem
  166. # [11:32] <Julian> MikeSmith: yes, in Stockholm, two weeks from now. Also informal meetings about URI/IRI.
  167. # [11:32] <Hixie> MikeSmith: actually i took out the biblio vocab
  168. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, I saw that
  169. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> you should put it back in until somebody comes up with a better solution
  170. # [11:32] <Julian> Mike: HTML5 doesn't help at all for now, because the IETF is very concerned about format stability.
  171. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> Hixie: or not even a better solution, but any other proposed solution
  172. # [11:33] <Hixie> MikeSmith: reply on that thread if you want it back -- the arguments presented suggested nothing was better than something bad
  173. # [11:33] <Hixie> there were many proposed solutions
  174. # [11:33] <Hixie> they all sucked as much
  175. # [11:33] <Julian> MikeSmith: no, it should stay out, just like the other predefined vocabularies, and be defined somewhere else
  176. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I mean another real, concrete proposal
  177. # [11:33] <Hixie> (the other vocabs aren't leaving, though)
  178. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> Julian: the problem with defining them elsewhere -- outside of the HTML WG -- becomes, how to specify the integration
  179. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> if the concern is about text/html integration at least
  180. # [11:35] <jgraham> MikeSmith: It doesn't seems that bad to me to specify vocablaries outside of HTML5
  181. # [11:35] <Hixie> the vocabularies are tightly integrated with the DND features, so removing them would just lead to confusing cross-references
  182. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> or unless/until we do manage to come up with a mechanism for distributed extensibility in text/html, and get implementors agreement on supporting it
  183. # [11:36] <jgraham> It kind of seems the point of microdata
  184. # [11:36] <Julian> they will have to go anyway, unless they are defined in a way that they do not collide with IETF activities (which IMHO currently is the case)
  185. # [11:36] <Hixie> and wouldn't in any way reduce the burden on reviewers
  186. # [11:36] <jgraham> (but DND is an issue)
  187. # [11:36] <Julian> You can define DND without defining specific formats.
  188. # [11:36] <Hixie> vocabularies in general can be specified externally, it's just the ones that integrate with DND that need to be in HTML5
  189. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> Julian: btw, do you know if Larry will be at the URI/IRI meeting?
  190. # [11:37] <Hixie> MikeSmith: we have at least a dozen mechanisms for distributed extensibility in text/html
  191. # [11:37] <jgraham> Hixie: Woulkd it be possible to make DND just extract all microdata somehow and make it avaliable?
  192. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> Hixie: right. and none of them solve all the use cases
  193. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> at least not to the satisfaction of everybody
  194. # [11:38] <Hixie> Julian: they don't clash with the IETF activities any more than the other vCard RDF vocabularies in W3C space, or hCard in microformats space
  195. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> and most of them are frankly not that great
  196. # [11:38] <Hixie> jgraham: it does that too
  197. # [11:38] <Hixie> jgraham: but if we want to expose the actual vCard and iCalendar formats, there's gonna have to be a reference
  198. # [11:38] <jgraham> Hixie: So why is special support needecd for some vocabs?
  199. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> having a dozen half-assed extensibility mechanisms is not a compelling alternative to having just one single really good one
  200. # [11:39] <Hixie> MikeSmith: that's not clear, since nobody has said what those use cases are (other than "i want to be able to do the same as microsoft and invent my own <marquee>", but that seems to be clearly something we want to avoid, not encourage!)
  201. # [11:39] <jgraham> It seems easier to just have one DnD format that holds all microdata and expect script libraries to deal with transforming common content
  202. # [11:39] <jgraham> Since script libraries have much shorter cycles than browsers
  203. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> jgraham: that's call "punting"
  204. # [11:39] <Hixie> jgraham: if we decide to drop the serialisation to vcard and icalendar in the dnd format, then yeah, we could split out those vocabs, i think
  205. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> jgraham: in American English at least
  206. # [11:40] <Hixie> but if you want that, send mail! :-)
  207. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I don't know how well it translates
  208. # [11:40] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Yep. It seems like a very practical approach since it could lead to a better overall situation
  209. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> jgraham: true. I will say that leaving some things up to script libraries has resulted is some great stuff so far
  210. # [11:41] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 6746] case-insensitivity of other than a-z and A-Z, e.g., diacritics <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jul/0034.html>
  211. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> I mean, giving room to script libraries to innovate
  212. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> or to things like Gears and other plug-ins
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  216. # [12:41] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 6774] <mark> element: restrict insertion by other servers <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jul/0035.html>
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  220. # [13:11] <pimpbot> changes: "hixie: Split Web Storage into two: Web Storage and Web Database. (whatwg r3418)" (6 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0111.html>
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  252. # [18:39] <pimpbot> planet: <div>HTML 5 tag vs Flash video. What are the pros and cons?</div> <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1086886/html-5-video-tag-vs-flash-video-what-are-the-pros-and-cons>
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  279. # [23:44] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: idl typo (whatwg r3419) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0112.html>
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  283. # Session Close: Thu Jul 16 00:00:00 2009

The end :)