/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-07-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jul 17 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  59. # [14:50] <pimpbot> planet: HTML5 Drag and Drop in deeetail <http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ajaxian/~3/ske2lggJYSA/html5-drag-and-drop-in-deeetail>
  60. # [15:32] * Joins: Marcos (Marcos@213.236.208.22)
  61. # [15:33] <Marcos> HTML5's window object spec seems to be missing 'document' as a attribute (i.e., there is no window.document defined). Is that correct?
  62. # [15:34] <Marcos> s/spec/IDL
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  65. # [15:48] * Marcos imagines a panic breaking out amongst the WG, "OMG!!! the document attribute is not defined!!! Someone wake up Hixie!!!" :)
  66. # [15:49] <Dashiva> Marcos: It could be on one of window's interfaces instead
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  68. # [15:51] <Marcos> <code>document</code> does not link to anything in the spec. My exhaustive and scientifically rigorous testing (using "javascript:(alert(window.document));" in the address bar) leads me to believe that window.document needs to be specified :)
  69. # [15:57] <Lachy> Marcos, I question the rigour of your scientific testing.
  70. # [15:57] <Marcos> hehe
  71. # [15:57] <takkaria> I can't easily see where it says what "document" should be
  72. # [15:57] <Lachy> Where are your controls? What was your hypothesis? What methodology did you use?
  73. # [15:57] <hsivonen> Marcos: http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Views/views.html#Views-AbstractView
  74. # [15:57] <pimpbot> Title: Document Object Model Views (at www.w3.org)
  75. # [15:58] <Marcos> Hypothesis: document is not on window object.
  76. # [15:58] <Marcos> Method: Marcosian Address Bar testing Methodology (tm)
  77. # [15:58] <Marcos> Control: Safari, Opera, FireFox, etc.
  78. # [15:59] <hsivonen> Marcos: I think the HTML5 says the Window object implements AbstractView and abstract view has document and the object that implements Document also implements DocumentView
  79. # [15:59] <Marcos> ah, nice
  80. # [15:59] <Lachy> "The AbstractView object that represents this view must also implement the Window interface"
  81. # [16:00] <Marcos> shouldn't the IDL reflect that?
  82. # [16:00] <Marcos> (thought it might just be that the spec has not been updated)
  83. # [16:00] <Lachy> it depends if there is a way to represent that in the IDL
  84. # [16:00] <Lachy> check with heycam about that
  85. # [16:00] <Marcos> IDL would be pretty broken without it
  86. # [16:01] <hsivonen> Is there IDL syntax for saying that an object that implements this interface must also implement another interface?
  87. # [16:01] <Marcos> so there must be a way
  88. # [16:01] <hsivonen> (which is different from inheritance)
  89. # [16:01] <Marcos> yes, understood.
  90. # [16:05] * Dashiva sets mood: vindicated
  91. # [16:07] <Marcos> It's unclear to me if IDL treats interfaces as "extensions" or "implementations" in, for example, "interface HTMLElement : Element {...}"
  92. # [16:07] <hsivonen> Marcos: the relationship of HTMLElement and Element is actual inheritance
  93. # [16:08] <Marcos> Yes, I know. But what does it mean in the IDL above?
  94. # [16:08] * Marcos trying to see if he can work it out without reading the spec ;)
  95. # [16:12] <Lachy> Marcos, the problem with trying to represent a relationship like that is that it's the object itself that implements two otherwise unrelated interfaces, and since the IDL only deals with interfaces, there isn't really a way to define that
  96. # [16:13] <Marcos> IDL should just deal with that, IMO. it doesn't make much sense to talk about object hierarchies when you are dealing with interfaces (interfaces are the anti-class).
  97. # [16:14] <Marcos> like in java, I can say, public object extends y implements x, y, z{}
  98. # [16:14] <Marcos> right?
  99. # [16:14] <Lachy> hmm, maybe the Implements statement can handle it
  100. # [16:14] <Marcos> of course, it's how java gets around multiple inheritance
  101. # [16:15] <hsivonen> Marcos: as I understand it, in Java terns HTMLElement extends Element
  102. # [16:15] <hsivonen> *terms
  103. # [16:15] <Lachy> Hixie, the HTMLDocument IDL still uses the ImplementedOn extended attribute, but that was apparently dropped from WebIDL
  104. # [16:16] <Marcos> Yes, but that's a design decision (in Java's very inefficient implementation).
  105. # [16:17] <hsivonen> Marcos: but isn't that how WebIDL to Java conversion works in practice?
  106. # [16:18] <Marcos> It does not have to. You could still have a flat object that implements the appropriate interfaces.... I guess the problem is where interfaces clash, which I can't remember how one deals with them (e.g., if interface y and x both define attribute foo).
  107. # [16:19] <hsivonen> Marcos: isn't there a difference in Java between implementing to interface that are separate and implementing two interface that inherit from each other?
  108. # [16:19] <hsivonen> Marcos: in terms of what you can do without explicit cast
  109. # [16:20] <hsivonen> if HTMLElement extends Element, you can assign an Element to an HTMLElement variable without a cast
  110. # [16:20] <hsivonen> s/implementing to/implementing two/
  111. # [16:21] <Marcos> I guess the difference is how you call the super one?
  112. # [16:21] <Marcos> and having a super hierarchy that may never be used (which is inefficient)
  113. # [16:26] <Marcos> Anyhoooow... window.document... be nice if IDL make that clear.
  114. # [16:26] <Marcos> :)
  115. # [16:26] * Marcos needs window to have document so when document is _not_ HTML (gasp!)
  116. # [16:27] <Marcos> I basically want to be able to fire events at whatever window.document is.
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  118. # [16:28] <Marcos> where window.document could be, say, an svg document... or an yet to be invented document type.
  119. # [16:29] <Marcos> (but that document type implements window, of course)
  120. # [16:33] <hsivonen> Marcos: isn't the plan that eventually in a UA that supports HTML and SVG, all document objects implement HTMLDocument and SVGDocument?
  121. # [16:34] <Marcos> For example, Firefox provides window.localStorage, but what would the storage events be fired on?
  122. # [16:34] <Marcos> (SVGDocument, of course)
  123. # [16:34] <Marcos> but the LocalStorage spec sez "HTMLDocument" :( It should just say something generic
  124. # [16:35] <Marcos> I mean WebStorage spec
  125. # [16:36] <Marcos> Oh wait, I think I read the spec wrong :P
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  127. # [16:37] <Marcos> ah crap, never mind :P
  128. # [16:37] <Marcos> hehe
  129. # [16:39] * Marcos blames it on being friday
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  138. # [17:46] * Topic is 'Pursuing conformance solutions for the N-body gravitational system known as "the Web", and in general, collectively performing various acts of unparalleled hubris (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/)'
  139. # [17:46] * Set by MikeSmith on Thu Jun 18 07:02:08
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  165. # [23:43] <Hixie> Lachy: i haven't updated the idl at all to handle recent changes, i'm waiting for webidl to be stable
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The end :)