/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-07-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jul 30 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  16. # [01:33] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Placeholder for index tables -- if anyone wants to volunteer to write a script to scrape this data, let me know, I'd love to help. (whatwg r3496) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0242.html>
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  20. # [02:04] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7171] New: Is this missing a comment as to how the type attribute is quoted wrt:codecs? "''" + '""' <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jul/0073.html>
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  25. # [02:34] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7161] If a heading has title text and then an image below it, then more text, how is the figure element handled in header and hgroup elements? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jul/0074.html>
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  28. # [03:00] <pimpbot> planet: royalty free codecs at the IETF <http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ChristopherBlizzard/~3/J-Ch6FT9I5Y/>
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  44. # [08:01] <pimpbot> planet: SvgWeb Deployed <http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/07/30/SvgWeb-Deployed>
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  49. # [08:37] * MikeSmith^away is now known as MikeSmith
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  53. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> karl: arora browser has some support for opensearch
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  57. # [10:08] * Topic is 'Pursuing conformance solutions for the N-body gravitational system known as "the Web", and in general, collectively performing various acts of unparalleled hubris (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/)'
  58. # [10:08] * Set by MikeSmith on Thu Jun 18 07:02:08
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  62. # [10:22] * Topic is 'Pursuing conformance solutions for the N-body gravitational system known as "the Web", and in general, collectively performing various acts of unparalleled hubris (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/)'
  63. # [10:22] * Set by MikeSmith on Thu Jun 18 07:02:08
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  73. # [13:40] <pimpbot> changes: "mike: streamlined documentation for common attributes" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0246.html>
  74. # [14:03] <pimpbot> planet: The Doctor subscribes HTML 5 Audio cross browser support <http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ajaxian/~3/UKQ8608UUt8/the-doctor-subscribes-html-5-audio-cross-browser-support>
  75. # [14:11] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7175] New: clearTimeout and clearInterval are not in the dom-intro box <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jul/0075.html>
  76. # [14:45] <anne2> anyone from the W3C around?
  77. # [14:45] <anne2> I did a publication request a few days ago and didn't get a reply?
  78. # [14:45] <anne2> did I miss some publication moratorium or webmaster vacation announcement?
  79. # [14:48] <MikeSmith> anne2: no moratorium now
  80. # [14:48] <MikeSmith> we just got a new webmaster
  81. # [14:48] <MikeSmith> maybe he's got a backlog
  82. # [14:48] <MikeSmith> if you can give me a URI and/or forward a copy of the message to me, I'll follow up on it
  83. # [14:48] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@88.131.66.80) (Quit: Adios Intarwebs!)
  84. # [14:50] <anne2> MikeSmith, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Jul/0173.html and thanks!
  85. # [14:50] <pimpbot> Title: Publishing a new draft of CSSOM View from Anne van Kesteren on 2009-07-28 (www-archive@w3.org from July 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
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  88. # [15:41] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7011] [in off-bug discussion] canvas accessible fallback provision is under specified <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jul/0076.html>
  89. # [15:45] <takkaria> heh
  90. # [15:45] <takkaria> who signs their emails "Distinguished Engineer"?
  91. # [15:48] <gsnedders> takkaria: Rich Schwerdtfeger
  92. # [15:51] <Philip> takkaria: Maybe someone who is justifiably proud of their achievements
  93. # [15:51] <Philip> or maybe someone who is just signing their mail with their job description
  94. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> takkaria: its a specific employment category at IBM, with a precise meaning
  95. # [15:52] <takkaria> oh, ok
  96. # [15:52] <takkaria> that sounds slightly less pompous then
  97. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> I would put my full W3C job title into my .sig, but it's too long
  98. # [15:54] <anne2> I thought it was just four letters
  99. # [15:55] <gsnedders> Where is Node.children from?
  100. # [15:56] <anne2> non-existing spec
  101. # [15:56] <gsnedders> awesome.
  102. # [15:56] <anne2> should return HTMLCollection (and returns NodeList in Firefox 3.5)
  103. # [15:56] <gsnedders> anne2: Should according to what?
  104. # [15:57] <anne2> majority
  105. # [15:57] <gsnedders> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/Element.children
  106. # [15:57] <pimpbot> Title: Element.children - MDC (at developer.mozilla.org)
  107. # [15:57] <gsnedders> Where does it originally come from? IE?
  108. # [15:58] <anne2> think so
  109. # [16:02] <gsnedders> Odd that Fx added support for it in 3.5 only then
  110. # [16:03] <anne2> see public-webapps archives if you really care about the history
  111. # [16:05] <gsnedders> No.
  112. # [16:05] <gsnedders> :D
  113. # [16:09] <anne2> hmm, 520 updates to HTML5 since last publication
  114. # [16:11] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7176] New: The link to [GREGORIAN] doesn't seem to work... <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jul/0077.html>
  115. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> roughly 80 of those 520 updates are due to a sorcerer's-apprentice robot I set loose and didn't notice until it had done the 80 commits
  116. # [16:13] <anne2> I'm using the SVN repository so I think I'm good
  117. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> so from W3C side it's 600
  118. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> w00t!
  119. # [16:15] * gsnedders facepalms
  120. # [16:15] <anne2> ah, so that's how Sam got his number
  121. # [16:18] <anne2> disclaimer: since html5-diff is mostly for authors I'm going to skip most of the implementor detail changes
  122. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> anne2: that sounds great to me
  123. # [16:23] <anne2> to be honest I've been doing less detailed changelogs for a while now, but I thought I'd say it upfront this time
  124. # [16:24] <anne2> implementors read the spec anyway so do not need to know (at least not via this draft) that lastModified needs to return the current date rather than the epoch date when no last modified date is known (and nobody else cares)
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  126. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> anne2: true I guess
  127. # [16:36] <anne2> I hope so :)
  128. # [16:37] <anne2> otherwise people can always go through the actual diff messages on web-apps-tracker
  129. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> though I can think of a number of cases where implementors didn't know that spec had changed
  130. # [16:37] <anne2> me too
  131. # [16:37] <anne2> the question is whether I can help them with html5-diff
  132. # [16:38] <anne2> it seems unlikely
  133. # [16:38] <MikeSmith> right
  134. # [16:38] <MikeSmith> they are not the audience for that doc
  135. # [16:39] <MikeSmith> and if an implementor has implemented something from a certain version of the draft, it's their responsibility to keep up with any changes in subsequent versions
  136. # [17:03] <pimpbot> planet: Accessibility of HTML 5 video <http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2009/accessibility-of-html-5-video/>
  137. # [17:11] <pimpbot> changes: "mike: further streamline the documentation for common attributes" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0248.html>
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  140. # [17:41] <anne2> hmm, Sam may be wrong
  141. # [17:41] * anne2 was in a bar with John Foliot once
  142. # [17:41] <anne2> Hixie was there too
  143. # [17:41] <anne2> and a bunch of Mozilla guys
  144. # [17:49] <MikeSmith> anne2: when was that?
  145. # [17:50] <MikeSmith> what do you think sam may be wrong about?
  146. # [17:50] <anne2> about the drinking buddies
  147. # [17:50] <anne2> just kidding of course, though we did go to a bar
  148. # [17:52] <anne2> http://blog.whatwg.org/bay-area-meetup-details
  149. # [17:52] <pimpbot> Title: Bay area meetup details � The WHATWG Blog (at blog.whatwg.org)
  150. # [17:55] <MikeSmith> forget bars, we should have a Bay Area "smoke the peace pipe" meetup
  151. # [17:56] <MikeSmith> get all of us straightened out together
  152. # [17:57] <MikeSmith> HTML WG 4:20
  153. # [17:57] <anne2> might be easier in A'dam :p
  154. # [17:57] <MikeSmith> anne2: excellent proposal
  155. # [17:57] <Lachy> hopefully, I'll be in the bay area in a few weeks time
  156. # [17:57] <anne2> though I'd opt for a beer myself
  157. # [17:57] * Joins: kliehm (martin@217.111.13.143)
  158. # [17:57] <anne2> Lachy, what's the delay?
  159. # [17:58] <Lachy> anne2, still organising my work visa
  160. # [17:58] * Joins: Chris (cwilso@131.107.0.83)
  161. # [17:58] <anne2> you didn't start early enough or so?
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  163. # [17:59] <Chris> zakim, this will be html
  164. # [17:59] <Zakim> ok, Chris, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
  165. # [17:59] <Lachy> unfortuantely, although I thought I'd filled out all the necessary paper work and answered all the questions, yesterday I got sent a dozen more questions I need to answer.
  166. # [17:59] <Zakim> -kliehm
  167. # [17:59] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  168. # [17:59] <Zakim> Attendees were kliehm
  169. # [17:59] <Chris> zakim, this will be html
  170. # [17:59] <Zakim> ok, Chris; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
  171. # [17:59] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  172. # [17:59] <Zakim> + +49.696.0.aaaa
  173. # [18:04] <pimpbot> planet: Separating Canvas out of HTML 5 <http://realtech.burningbird.net/separating-canvas-new-specification> ** HTML 5 offline caching <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1207150/html-5-offline-caching>
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  176. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  177. # [18:07] <Chris> zakim, microsoft has me, SamRuby
  178. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Chris, SamRuby; got it
  179. # [18:07] * Joins: smedero (smedero@128.208.133.191)
  180. # [18:07] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  181. # [18:07] <Chris> zakim, who is on the phone?
  182. # [18:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see +49.696.0.aaaa, [Microsoft], [Apple]
  183. # [18:07] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has Chris, SamRuby
  184. # [18:07] <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
  185. # [18:07] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  186. # [18:07] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-work
  187. # [18:07] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  188. # [18:07] <Zakim> +DanC
  189. # [18:07] <Chris> zakim, 49 is kliehm
  190. # [18:07] <Zakim> sorry, Chris, I do not recognize a party named '49'
  191. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Laura
  192. # [18:07] <Chris> zakim, aaaa is kliehm
  193. # [18:07] <Zakim> +kliehm; got it
  194. # [18:08] * DanC reluctantly puts aside a nifty hacking project to join the call...
  195. # [18:08] <Zakim> +??P8
  196. # [18:08] * Joins: rubys (rubys@131.107.204.126)
  197. # [18:08] <DanC> Zakim, ??P8 is SteveF
  198. # [18:08] <Zakim> +SteveF; got it
  199. # [18:09] <Chris> zakim, who is on the phone?
  200. # [18:09] <Zakim> On the phone I see kliehm, [Microsoft], [Apple], DanC, Laura, SteveF
  201. # [18:09] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has Chris, SamRuby
  202. # [18:09] <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
  203. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
  204. # [18:09] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  205. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Mike
  206. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Matt_May
  207. # [18:09] <Chris> agenda +choose a scribe
  208. # [18:09] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
  209. # [18:09] <Chris> agenda +review tracker http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
  210. # [18:09] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
  211. # [18:09] <pimpbot> Title: Input for Agenda Planning for the HTML Weekly - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  212. # [18:09] * Quits: pimpbot (pimpbot@80.68.92.65) (Client exited)
  213. # [18:10] <Chris> chair: ChrisWilson
  214. # [18:10] <Chris> scribe: rubys
  215. # [18:10] <Chris> zakim, close item 1
  216. # [18:10] <Zakim> agendum 1, choose a scribe, closed
  217. # [18:10] <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
  218. # [18:10] <Zakim> 2. review tracker http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda [from Chris]
  219. # [18:10] <Chris> zakim, take up item 2
  220. # [18:10] <Zakim> agendum 2. "review tracker http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda" taken up [from Chris]
  221. # [18:10] <rubys> agenda +hearbeat
  222. # [18:10] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
  223. # [18:11] <Chris> action0128?
  224. # [18:11] <Chris> action-128?
  225. # [18:11] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-128
  226. # [18:11] <trackbot> ACTION-128 -- Joshue O Connor to draft @summary voting (Straw poll) text in conjunction with PF -- due 2009-07-27 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  227. # [18:11] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/128
  228. # [18:11] <Zakim> +??P12
  229. # [18:11] <DanC> Zakim, is Joshue on the call?
  230. # [18:11] <Zakim> DanC, I do not see Joshue anywhere
  231. # [18:11] <DanC> q+ to note Joshue's withdawl
  232. # [18:11] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  233. # [18:12] <Chris> ack danc
  234. # [18:12] <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note Joshue's withdawl
  235. # [18:12] <DanC> josh's msg http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jul/0784.html
  236. # [18:12] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  237. # [18:12] <anne2> Zakim, passcode?
  238. # [18:12] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne2
  239. # [18:12] <Zakim> +??P13
  240. # [18:12] <anne2> Zakim, ??P13 is me
  241. # [18:12] <Zakim> +anne2; got it
  242. # [18:12] <rubys> Chris: Sam you changed this to pending review
  243. # [18:12] * anne2 is now known as anne
  244. # [18:12] <rubys> Sam: I don't believe I did... oops
  245. # [18:12] <anne> Zakim, anne2 is me
  246. # [18:12] <Zakim> +anne; got it
  247. # [18:13] <johndrinkwater> Zakim, I am ??P12
  248. # [18:13] <Zakim> +johndrinkwater; got it
  249. # [18:13] <rubys> sam: is steve faulkner on the call. Care to discuss your drafts?
  250. # [18:13] <Zakim> +??P14
  251. # [18:13] <anne> (I updated http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/ but I have not added the new Microdata attributes in the main body of the document yet.)
  252. # [18:14] <rubys> Steve: I've drafted two drafts.. the first covers img, and the second one is proposed to become a note, and will replace the text in the HTML5 specification.
  253. # [18:14] <rubys> steve: presuming it gets support.
  254. # [18:14] <DanC> Steven's msg (re alt) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jul/0865.html
  255. # [18:15] <rubys> steve: I've initially published it outside of W3C space for the moment, I'd like to move it into W3C space.
  256. # [18:15] <rubys> rubys: my misunderstanding... neither cover summary
  257. # [18:15] <rubys> steve: I've not done anything yet on summary
  258. # [18:15] <DanC> anne, http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/ still shows "summary attribute on table. " among absent attributes. I got the impression (from mail from Maciej) that summary is in now, to some extent. True?
  259. # [18:16] <Zakim> + +1.484.802.aabb
  260. # [18:16] <smedero> Zakim, +1.484.802.aabb is me
  261. # [18:16] <Zakim> +smedero; got it
  262. # [18:16] <rubys> chris: your statement is that you don't plan to propose much for alt on table
  263. # [18:16] <rubys> steve: I don't plan to propose anything for table at this point in time
  264. # [18:16] <smedero> Zakim, mute me
  265. # [18:16] <Zakim> smedero should now be muted
  266. # [18:16] <rubys> chris: great
  267. # [18:17] <rubys> chris: it looks like Josh has backed away... I take it that the discussion will lead to somebody in PF to take this action item.
  268. # [18:17] <anne> DanC, good point, I haven't looked at conforming but strongly condemned yet
  269. # [18:17] <rubys> danc: did the editors draft change substantially?
  270. # [18:17] <rubys> steve: the summary attribute is now conforming but obsolete
  271. # [18:18] <rubys> dsinger: that was my suggestion
  272. # [18:18] <DanC> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-table-element
  273. # [18:18] <rubys> chris: I don't think that PF is happy with that yet
  274. # [18:18] <smedero> "f a table element has a summary attribute, the user agent may report the contents of that attribute to the user."
  275. # [18:18] <rubys> mike: summary was not added to the list of valid attributes, instead it is listed as a "conforming but obsolete features", and that is the only place it is listed
  276. # [18:18] <smedero> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/obsolete.html#conforming-but-obsolete-features
  277. # [18:18] <rubys> danc: where is this section listed?
  278. # [18:19] <DanC> "If a table element has a summary attribute, the user agent may report the contents of that attribute to the user."
  279. # [18:19] <smedero> @summary is mentioned in both places
  280. # [18:19] <rubys> danc: I see summary discussed in the table section
  281. # [18:19] <smedero> "Authors should not specify the summary attribute on table elements. This attribute was suggested in earlier versions of the language as a technique for providing explanatory text for complex tables for users of screen readers. One of the techniques described in the table section should be used instead."
  282. # [18:19] <rubys> ???: only for user agents
  283. # [18:19] <smedero> (that's from obsolete...)
  284. # [18:19] <DanC> s/???/anne/
  285. # [18:20] <rubys> chris: we have an issue, there is current text which addresses this issue. We need an alternate proposal.
  286. # [18:20] <rubys> steve: you can assign the action to me, and I will follow up.
  287. # [18:21] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
  288. # [18:21] * DanC thinks this is a new action, but it doesn't matter that much
  289. # [18:21] <Chris> action-128
  290. # [18:21] <DanC> action-128?
  291. # [18:21] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-128
  292. # [18:21] <trackbot> ACTION-128 -- Joshue O Connor to work with PF to find an owner for drafting @summary text proposal -- due 2009-08-13 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  293. # [18:21] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/128
  294. # [18:21] <Chris> action-128?
  295. # [18:21] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-128
  296. # [18:21] <trackbot> ACTION-128 -- Joshue O Connor to work with PF to find an owner for drafting @summary text proposal -- due 2009-08-13 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  297. # [18:21] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/128
  298. # [18:22] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  299. # [18:22] <Zakim> On the phone I see kliehm, [Microsoft], [Apple], DanC, Laura, SteveF, Mike, Matt_May, johndrinkwater, anne, ??P14, smedero (muted)
  300. # [18:22] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has Chris, SamRuby
  301. # [18:22] <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
  302. # [18:22] <Chris> action-128?
  303. # [18:22] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-128
  304. # [18:22] <trackbot> ACTION-128 -- Steve Faulkner to work with PF to find an owner for drafting @summary text proposal -- due 2009-08-13 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  305. # [18:22] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/128
  306. # [18:22] <DanC> Zakim, ??P14 JoeW
  307. # [18:22] <Zakim> I don't understand '??P14 JoeW', DanC
  308. # [18:22] <DanC> Zakim, ??P14 is JoeW
  309. # [18:22] <Zakim> +JoeW; got it
  310. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> that's Joe Williams?
  311. # [18:22] * DanC thinks so
  312. # [18:23] * Chris yes
  313. # [18:23] <rubys> joew: it is clear that the editor has been clever... if you have to resort to a table, what is really needed is a navigation. I think those folks should be given an opportunity to keep summary and extend it.
  314. # [18:23] <rubys> chris: interesting idea... lets find out who drafts up the summary proposal and then follow up
  315. # [18:23] <Chris> action-130?
  316. # [18:23] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-130
  317. # [18:23] <trackbot> ACTION-130 -- Sam Ruby to review status of video codec positions -- due 2009-07-30 -- OPEN
  318. # [18:23] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/130
  319. # [18:24] <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
  320. # [18:24] <rubys> sam: Is Dsinger happy with owning this?
  321. # [18:24] <rubys> dsinger: I'm taking it to make it clear that Apple sees that there is still an open question
  322. # [18:24] <rubys> chris: what is the question
  323. # [18:25] <rubys> dsinger: how to obtain interoperability on video
  324. # [18:25] <rubys> chris: I question whether interoperability is possible
  325. # [18:25] * Quits: Marcos (Marcos@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Marcos)
  326. # [18:25] <rubys> dsinger: I don't think it would be productive to close the issue
  327. # [18:25] <rubys> chris: OK
  328. # [18:26] <rubys> chris: we should keep the issue open and assign it to you. I'm willing (as a MSFT rep) to help.
  329. # [18:26] <rubys> dsinger: you've been very measured, responsible, and great.
  330. # [18:26] <rubys> chris: when should we move this too?
  331. # [18:27] <rubys> dsinger: what formal date do we have for going to a vote?
  332. # [18:27] <rubys> chris: generality of "October"
  333. # [18:27] <rubys> dsinger: assign it a date in October then
  334. # [18:27] <Chris> action-103?
  335. # [18:27] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-103
  336. # [18:27] <trackbot> ACTION-103 -- Julian Reschke to register about: URI scheme -- due 2009-07-30 -- OPEN
  337. # [18:27] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/103
  338. # [18:27] <DanC> (our milestones could use a tune-up http://www.w3.org/html/wg/#sched )
  339. # [18:27] <rubys> chris: OK
  340. # [18:27] <rubys> chris: Is julian here?
  341. # [18:27] <DanC> ACTION-103 due next week
  342. # [18:27] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-103.
  343. # [18:27] <trackbot> ACTION-103 Register about: URI scheme due date now next week
  344. # [18:28] <rubys> sam, mike: julian is at the ietf
  345. # [18:28] <Chris> action-99?
  346. # [18:28] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-99
  347. # [18:28] <trackbot> ACTION-99 -- Chris Wilson to propose head/@profile/microdata solution -- due 2009-07-30 -- OPEN
  348. # [18:28] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/99
  349. # [18:28] <rubys> zakim, who is making noise?
  350. # [18:28] * dsinger can someone mute, please?
  351. # [18:28] <Zakim> rubys, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds
  352. # [18:29] * DanC Zakim, who's talking?
  353. # [18:29] <anne> get of my lawn!
  354. # [18:29] * rubys zakim is clearly deaf
  355. # [18:29] * Zakim DanC, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (14%), [Apple] (18%)
  356. # [18:29] <anne> Zakim, mute [Apple]
  357. # [18:29] <Zakim> [Apple] should now be muted
  358. # [18:29] <anne> Zakim, unmute [Apple]
  359. # [18:29] <Zakim> [Apple] should no longer be muted
  360. # [18:29] <dsinger> zakim, who is making noise?
  361. # [18:29] <anne> Zakim, mute [Microsoft]
  362. # [18:29] <Zakim> [Microsoft] should now be muted
  363. # [18:29] * DanC pages an operator
  364. # [18:29] <anne> Zakim, unmute [Microsoft]
  365. # [18:29] <Zakim> [Microsoft] should no longer be muted
  366. # [18:29] <Zakim> dsinger, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
  367. # [18:29] <anne> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  368. # [18:29] <Zakim> On the phone I see kliehm, [Microsoft], [Apple], DanC, Laura (muted), SteveF, Mike, Matt_May, johndrinkwater, anne, JoeW, smedero (muted), Cynthia_Shelly
  369. # [18:29] * dsinger incroyable
  370. # [18:29] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has Chris, SamRuby
  371. # [18:29] <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
  372. # [18:30] <anne> Zakim, mute kliehm
  373. # [18:30] <Zakim> kliehm should now be muted
  374. # [18:30] <anne> Zakim, unmute kliehm
  375. # [18:30] <Zakim> kliehm should no longer be muted
  376. # [18:31] <rubys> chris: I haven't looked at head-profile, and don't expect to within the next month or so...
  377. # [18:31] <rubys> chris: I can either move it out 6 weeks, close it, or assign it to someone else.
  378. # [18:31] <anne> Zakim, mute johndrinkwater
  379. # [18:31] <Zakim> johndrinkwater should now be muted
  380. # [18:31] <anne> Zakim, unmute johndrinkwater
  381. # [18:31] <Zakim> johndrinkwater should no longer be muted
  382. # [18:31] <rubys> chris: any suggestions?
  383. # [18:31] <anne> Zakim, mute JoeW
  384. # [18:31] <Zakim> JoeW should now be muted
  385. # [18:31] <rubys> chris: I'm inclined to move it out...
  386. # [18:31] * anne is it JoeW?
  387. # [18:32] * anne hmm
  388. # [18:32] <anne> Zakim, unmute JoeW
  389. # [18:32] <Zakim> JoeW should no longer be muted
  390. # [18:32] <rubys> danc: I thought Larry took an action...
  391. # [18:32] <anne> Zakim, mute Cynthia
  392. # [18:32] <Zakim> Cynthia_Shelly should now be muted
  393. # [18:32] <rubys> chris: this item was originally his...
  394. # [18:32] <anne> Zakim, unmute Cynthia
  395. # [18:32] <Zakim> Cynthia_Shelly should no longer be muted
  396. # [18:32] <rubys> danc: right
  397. # [18:32] <anne> Zakim, mute SteveF
  398. # [18:32] <Zakim> SteveF should now be muted
  399. # [18:32] <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
  400. # [18:32] <anne> Zakim, unmute SteveF
  401. # [18:32] <Zakim> SteveF should no longer be muted
  402. # [18:32] <anne> Zakim, mute Matt
  403. # [18:32] <Zakim> Matt_May should now be muted
  404. # [18:32] <anne> Zakim, unmute Matt
  405. # [18:32] <Zakim> Matt_May should no longer be muted
  406. # [18:33] <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
  407. # [18:33] <Chris> action-123?
  408. # [18:33] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-123
  409. # [18:33] <trackbot> ACTION-123 -- Sam Ruby to discuss choice of embedding vcard microdata instead of referencing IETF spec and defining conformance reqs for HTML5 -- due 2009-07-23 -- OPEN
  410. # [18:33] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/123
  411. # [18:33] * anne is lost
  412. # [18:34] <rubys> sam: I missed this one... push it out two weeks?
  413. # [18:34] <rubys> chris: ok
  414. # [18:34] <Zakim> -DanC
  415. # [18:34] <Chris> zakim, close item 2
  416. # [18:34] <Zakim> agendum 2, review tracker http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda, closed
  417. # [18:34] <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
  418. # [18:34] <Zakim> 3. hearbeat [from rubys]
  419. # [18:34] <Chris> zakim, take up item 3
  420. # [18:34] <Zakim> agendum 3. "hearbeat" taken up [from rubys]
  421. # [18:34] <Zakim> +DanC
  422. # [18:34] * DanC chats with an operator, returns
  423. # [18:35] <Chris> sr: Anne, are you ready to update the diffs document, etc?
  424. # [18:35] <Chris> anne: pretty much ready
  425. # [18:35] <Chris> anne: need an hour or so add'l work
  426. # [18:35] <Chris> sr: so I assume it will all be ready by Monday
  427. # [18:36] <Chris> sr: if I can't convince Larry to withdraw his objection by then, we'll put it to a vote
  428. # [18:36] * DanC fidgets with WBS...
  429. # [18:36] <Chris> cyns: if I have summary text by monday, can it go in?
  430. # [18:36] <Chris> sr: unlikely
  431. # [18:37] <Chris> sf: perhaps we should move summary to cyns?
  432. # [18:37] <Chris> cyns: ok
  433. # [18:37] <Chris> zakim, close item 3
  434. # [18:37] <Zakim> agendum 3, hearbeat, closed
  435. # [18:37] <Zakim> I see nothing remaining on the agenda
  436. # [18:38] <dsinger> does anyone but Larry have concerns on keeping our hearts beating?
  437. # [18:38] * Chris heh
  438. # [18:39] <smedero> For the last couple polls didn't we state the vote counting method upfront?
  439. # [18:41] * DanC drafted http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/pub-jul/
  440. # [18:41] <smedero> In the past we defined stuff like the baseline of W3C members
  441. # [18:41] <smedero> right, what anne just said.
  442. # [18:42] <dsinger> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/policies.html#Votes
  443. # [18:43] <dsinger> "For instance, the Chair often conducts a "straw poll" vote as a means of determining whether there is consensus about a potential decision."
  444. # [18:43] <rubys> sam: I'm happy to call it a poll
  445. # [18:43] <DanC> (a poll isn't binding.)
  446. # [18:43] <rubys> mike: I'd be much happier with that
  447. # [18:43] <Chris> we all agree to call it a poll./
  448. # [18:43] <dsinger> me too
  449. # [18:43] <rubys> chris: so moved and agreed
  450. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> or even a "survey"
  451. # [18:44] <DanC> (after a poll, you then have to have some further process to actually make a decision)
  452. # [18:44] <smedero> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7075
  453. # [18:44] <dsinger> "straw poll as defined in 3.4 of the process document" (text quoted above)
  454. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> bug 7075
  455. # [18:44] <rubys> joe: I'd like to discuss bug 7075
  456. # [18:45] * smedero tries to see what discussion there has been on public-html about <embed>
  457. # [18:45] <rubys> joe: I'd like it be move to obsolete
  458. # [18:45] <rubys> anne: what is the proposal
  459. # [18:45] <rubys> joe: object
  460. # [18:45] <rubys> anne: embed is specific, object is generic
  461. # [18:45] <rubys> joe: embed is specific to nothing
  462. # [18:46] <rubys> joe: I support the bug
  463. # [18:46] <rubys> joe: object has a fallback, embed has no fallback
  464. # [18:46] <rubys> chris: embed having no fallback is a powerful argument
  465. # [18:46] <DanC> (I recall a comment from somebody who said "don't deprecate <applet>; it's important for Java applets". I wonder if that comment has been answered)
  466. # [18:47] <rubys> joe: I can certainly add more text to the bug
  467. # [18:47] <anne> the reason for deprecating <applet> is because Java is just as proprietary as Flash and does not deserve its own plugin mechanism
  468. # [18:47] <rubys> joe: are there mobile browsers that would prefer embed rather object?
  469. # [18:47] <anne> (as is stated now in the <applet> section)
  470. # [18:47] <smedero> DanC: <applet> is non-conforming in the current draft
  471. # [18:48] <rubys> chris: I recall some older browsers which would support embed but not object
  472. # [18:48] <anne> (yeah, I shouldn't say deprecating)
  473. # [18:48] <rubys> joe: now all of the browsers are handling object well and consistently
  474. # [18:48] <rubys> joe: how would I move 7075 forward?
  475. # [18:48] <Chris> anne, I'm not sure I understand "embed is specific"
  476. # [18:48] <kliehm> Good question, currently best practice is <object> with an <embed> fallback, but <embed> has been reanmiated in HTML5 because it's supported by browsers.
  477. # [18:48] <anne> yeah sorry, what I said was that <embed> is specific to plugins
  478. # [18:49] <smedero> The <embed> discussion is better to have on public-html, where the backwards compatibility issues can be addressed by the wider audience.
  479. # [18:49] <anne> whereas <object> can be used for images, HTML pages, plugins, etc.
  480. # [18:49] <rubys> chris: in my MSFT role, I don't see a strong need to retain embed
  481. # [18:49] <anne> i.e. <embed> is on the same level as <img>
  482. # [18:49] <rubys> chris: we should discuss this on public-html
  483. # [18:49] <DanC> wierd... I can't find the applet comment in public-html-comments...
  484. # [18:49] <smedero> DanC: I think Henri raised it as a bugzilla bug
  485. # [18:49] <anne> DanC, maybe he made it on public-html?
  486. # [18:50] <anne> smedero, there was also someone from Sun
  487. # [18:50] <Chris> anne: doesn't that mean embed SHOULD be consumed by <object>? is there anything embed can do object can't?
  488. # [18:50] <Chris> but we should move this to public-html/
  489. # [18:50] * dsinger thx
  490. # [18:50] <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
  491. # [18:50] <Zakim> -SteveF
  492. # [18:50] <Zakim> -JoeW
  493. # [18:50] <anne> Chris, should <object> consume <img>?
  494. # [18:50] <rubys> chris: adjourned
  495. # [18:50] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  496. # [18:50] <Zakim> -kliehm
  497. # [18:50] <anne> Chris, I think <embed> can instantiate plugins in some specific ways
  498. # [18:50] <DanC> ah... found the applet thingy... it was another bug. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Sep/0397.html http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6102
  499. # [18:50] <smedero> DanC: I see this: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7010
  500. # [18:50] <anne> Chris, not sure if any is interesting
  501. # [18:51] * Quits: Stevef (chatzilla@82.44.69.8) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5/20090624025744])
  502. # [18:51] <Zakim> -Matt_May
  503. # [18:51] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  504. # [18:51] * smedero congratulates DanC on actually finding it
  505. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
  506. # [18:51] <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
  507. # [18:51] <Zakim> -Mike
  508. # [18:51] <Zakim> -Laura
  509. # [18:51] <Zakim> -smedero
  510. # [18:51] <DanC> wild... 7010 is "RESOLVED INVALID". MikeSmith, that doesn't seem editorial, but it doesn't have an NE tag
  511. # [18:51] * Quits: kliehm (martin@217.111.13.143) (Quit: kliehm)
  512. # [18:51] <Zakim> -johndrinkwater
  513. # [18:51] <Zakim> -DanC
  514. # [18:51] <Zakim> -anne
  515. # [18:51] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217) (Quit: Laura)
  516. # [18:52] * Quits: DanC (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  517. # [18:52] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52) (Quit: dsinger)
  518. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> DanC: I didn't start tagging stuff NE until just two days
  519. # [18:53] <MikeSmith> as far as the audit trail:
  520. # [18:53] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_activity.cgi?id=7010
  521. # [18:53] * Quits: rubys (rubys@131.107.204.126) (Quit: Leaving.)
  522. # [18:54] * Joins: pimpbot (pimpbot@80.68.92.65)
  523. # [18:54] * Joins: adele (adele@17.246.19.228)
  524. # [18:59] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.240)
  525. # [19:06] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.29.114.228) (Quit: Leaving...)
  526. # [19:10] * Joins: rubys (rubys@131.107.204.126)
  527. # [19:10] <rubys> rrsagent, generate minutes
  528. # [19:11] * Quits: Chris (cwilso@131.107.0.83) (Ping timeout)
  529. # [19:12] <rubys> rrsagent, draft minutes
  530. # [19:12] * Joins: DanC (connolly@128.30.52.30)
  531. # [19:12] <rubys> rrsagent, draft minutes
  532. # [19:12] <DanC> oops; did we forget to invite rrsagent?
  533. # [19:13] <DanC> RRSAgent's "draft minutes" feature is a wrapper around scribe.perl, which can also run on a local IRC log
  534. # [19:14] <DanC> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
  535. # [19:14] <pimpbot> Title: 2002/scribe/ (at dev.w3.org)
  536. # [19:14] <DanC> I don't suppose you've ever used scribe.perl locally, sam?
  537. # [19:15] <DanC> MikeSmith, are you in the mood to do this?
  538. # [19:15] <rubys> no. I'm in all day meetings. can look at it in the evening (PDT)
  539. # [19:15] <DanC> maybe I'll make progress in the meantime
  540. # [19:25] <pimpbot> changes: mike: streamline the description of what an end tag is <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Jul/0252.html>
  541. # [19:34] * Quits: webben (benh@217.12.14.240) (Ping timeout)
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  544. # [20:09] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.73)
  545. # [20:14] * anne wonders what is wrong with his keyboard
  546. # [20:14] <anne> Tne rather than The, a leading > on a sentence
  547. # [20:38] * Joins: gsnedders_ (gsnedders@83.252.203.79)
  548. # [20:38] * Quits: adele (adele@17.246.19.228) (Quit: adele)
  549. # [20:40] * Joins: adele (adele@17.246.19.228)
  550. # [20:40] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  551. # [20:40] <Zakim> Attendees were +49.696.0.aaaa, Chris, SamRuby, dsinger, DanC, Laura, kliehm, SteveF, Mike, Matt_May, anne, johndrinkwater, smedero, JoeW, Cynthia_Shelly
  552. # [20:49] * Parts: annevk (opera@83.85.115.44)
  553. # [20:54] * tlr is now known as tlr-longconfcall
  554. # [20:56] <pimpbot> planet: Firefox, Firebug, XULRunner, Thunderbird, WebQA, Mozilla Camp, JavaScript Web Workers, press coverage, and more… <http://blog.mozilla.com/about_mozilla/2009/07/28/firefox-firebug-xulrunner-thunderbird-webqa-mozilla-camp-javascript-web-workers-press-coverage-and-more/>
  555. # [21:09] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  556. # [21:09] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  557. # [21:34] * Quits: maddiin (mc@87.185.249.206) (Quit: maddiin)
  558. # [21:56] <pimpbot> planet: Flexible Membranes and Catch-alls in JavaScript <http://www.toolness.com/wp/?p=642>
  559. # [22:14] * Quits: timelyx (timeless@88.115.12.126) (Ping timeout)
  560. # [22:21] * Joins: timelyx (timeless@88.115.12.126)
  561. # [22:27] * Joins: xover (xover@193.157.66.22)
  562. # [22:39] * Joins: laplink (link@193.157.66.240)
  563. # [22:56] * Quits: aroben (aroben@71.58.77.15) (Connection reset by peer)
  564. # [22:58] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  565. # [23:00] * Quits: takkaria (takkaria@208.75.87.166) (Client exited)
  566. # [23:00] * Joins: J_Voracek (irchon@32.153.242.162)
  567. # [23:01] * Quits: J_Voracek (irchon@32.153.242.162) (Client exited)
  568. # Session Close: Fri Jul 31 00:00:00 2009

The end :)