/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-08-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 06 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  13. # [01:39] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Move summary text to table section. (whatwg r3542) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0046.html>
  14. # [01:39] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7225] New: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7224 <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0023.html> ** [Bug 7224] New: Crash in application C++ exception Unsupported file format header 46466c17 <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0022.html>
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  18. # [02:09] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7226] New: has enabled --> have enabled <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0024.html>
  19. # [02:09] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: input.files support (whatwg r3544) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0048.html> ** hixie: I guess without listing the attribute here, it's technically non-conforming, which wasn't the intent of the previous checkin. (whatwg r3543) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0047.html>
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  25. # [02:39] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7227] New: using both "conforming but obsolete" (12.1) and "obsolete but conforming" (12.1.1) - consistency in terminology may be helpful <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0025.html>
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  30. # [04:05] <pimpbot> planet: Google Buys On2 <http://robert.accettura.com/blog/2009/08/05/google-buys-on2/>
  31. # [04:10] <Dashiva> Now that's interesting
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  53. # [09:07] <pimpbot> planet: Downloading .net project from link <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1237279/downloading-net-project-from-link>
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  57. # [09:41] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7229] input.files should return the same object <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0027.html> ** [Bug 7229] New: input.files should return the same object <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0026.html>
  58. # [09:41] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: input.files should be readonly. (whatwg r3545) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0049.html>
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  69. # [11:11] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Add input.files domintro text. (whatwg r3546) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0050.html>
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  76. # [11:41] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Add dataTransfer.files for drag-and-drop. Not sure how to expose it during the drags yet, though. (whatwg r3547) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0051.html>
  77. # [11:46] * Joins: Dashiva (noone@129.241.137.223)
  78. # [12:11] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7232] add <iframe> to list of CDATA elements in the "Writing HTML documents" section <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0029.html> ** [Bug 7232] New: add <iframe> to list of CDATA elements in the "Writing HTML documents" section <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0028.html>
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  82. # [12:41] <pimpbot> changes: "mike: updated description of <iframe> to indicate that its content model allows non-replaceable character data; refined description of what a conformant document is" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0053.html>
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  84. # [13:11] <pimpbot> changes: mike: mention iframe in the section about escaping text spans <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0054.html>
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  90. # [14:08] <pimpbot> planet: Disappearing Silverware <http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/08/06/Disappearing-Silverware> ** html canvas demo (html 5 capable browser required) <http://www.reddit.com/r/browsers/comments/982bm/html_canvas_demo_html_5_capable_browser_required/>
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  98. # [15:42] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7234] New: review 123 <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0030.html>
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  114. # [17:52] <mjs> good day everyone
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  116. # [18:00] <mjs> been a while since I hit the dial-in server, I hope it's not too complicated
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  119. # [18:01] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/08/06-html-wg-irc
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  122. # [18:04] * jgraham will try to keep up on irvc
  123. # [18:04] <jgraham> *irc
  124. # [18:05] <rubys1> zakim, start call
  125. # [18:05] <Zakim> I don't understand 'start call', rubys1
  126. # [18:05] <rubys1> trackbot, start call
  127. # [18:05] <trackbot> Sorry, rubys1, I don't understand 'trackbot, start call'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  128. # [18:05] <pimpbot> Title: IRC Trackbot (at www.w3.org)
  129. # [18:05] * Joins: laplink (link@193.157.66.7)
  130. # [18:06] <rubys1> trackbot, start telcon
  131. # [18:06] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  132. # [18:06] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  133. # [18:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  134. # [18:06] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
  135. # [18:06] <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
  136. # [18:06] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
  137. # [18:06] <trackbot> Date: 06 August 2009
  138. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Julian
  139. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Radhika_Roy
  140. # [18:06] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52)
  141. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  142. # [18:06] <dsinger> zakim [apple] has dsinger
  143. # [18:06] <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
  144. # [18:06] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  145. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Masinter
  146. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.415.595.aabb
  147. # [18:06] <rubys1> zakim, who is on the call
  148. # [18:06] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', rubys1
  149. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +47.40.28.aacc
  150. # [18:07] <mjs> I'm on - I think
  151. # [18:07] * Joins: masinter (user@76.102.104.162)
  152. # [18:07] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  153. # [18:07] * Quits: rubys (rubys@98.27.52.152) (Quit: Leaving.)
  154. # [18:07] * rubys1 is now known as rubys
  155. # [18:07] <Stevef> zakim, IPcaller is Stevef
  156. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Stevef; got it
  157. # [18:07] <Lachy> I guess I must be [IPcaller]
  158. # [18:07] <Lachy> oh, maybe not
  159. # [18:08] <dsinger> zakim, who is on the phone?
  160. # [18:08] <Zakim> On the phone I see Sam, ??P2, +1.703.234.aaaa, Julian, Radhika_Roy, [Apple], Masinter, +1.415.595.aabb, +47.40.28.aacc, Stevef
  161. # [18:08] <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
  162. # [18:08] <Zakim> - +47.40.28.aacc
  163. # [18:08] <Zakim> +Matt_May
  164. # [18:08] <mjs> it's awful quiet on the call
  165. # [18:08] * dsinger lachy might be ??p2
  166. # [18:08] <dsinger> ?
  167. # [18:08] <kliehm> I'm on the phone, too, should be +49 (or VOIP)
  168. # [18:08] <Lachy> no, I dropped off. calling back
  169. # [18:09] <Zakim> + +47.40.28.aadd
  170. # [18:09] <Lachy> Zakim, I am aadd
  171. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
  172. # [18:09] * Julian kliehm might be IPCaller
  173. # [18:09] <Zakim> + +1.519.378.aaee
  174. # [18:09] <Zakim> -??P2
  175. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Laura
  176. # [18:09] * mjs I think I'm the 415 number, don't remember how to tell Zakim that
  177. # [18:10] <Zakim> +??P34
  178. # [18:10] <rubys> zakim, aabb is mjs
  179. # [18:10] <Zakim> +mjs; got it
  180. # [18:10] <dsinger> zakim, aabb is mjs
  181. # [18:10] <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
  182. # [18:10] <kliehm> zakim, ??P34 is kliehm
  183. # [18:10] <Zakim> +kliehm; got it
  184. # [18:10] <dsinger> zakim, +1.415.595.aabb is mjs
  185. # [18:10] <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named '+1.415.595.aabb'
  186. # [18:10] <dsinger> zakim, who is on the phone?
  187. # [18:10] <Zakim> On the phone I see Sam, +1.703.234.aaaa, Julian, Radhika_Roy, [Apple], Masinter, mjs, Stevef, Matt_May, Lachy, +1.519.378.aaee, Laura, kliehm
  188. # [18:10] <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
  189. # [18:10] <rubys> zakim, pick a scribe
  190. # [18:10] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Laura
  191. # [18:11] <rubys> zakim, pick a scribe
  192. # [18:11] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Juian
  193. # [18:11] <kliehm> zakim aabb is mjs
  194. # [18:11] <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
  195. # [18:11] <kliehm> zakim, aabb is mjs
  196. # [18:11] <Zakim> sorry, kliehm, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
  197. # [18:11] * mjs kliehm, I think Zkin has my name right now
  198. # [18:11] <Julian> scribe: Julian
  199. # [18:11] * dsinger we already got mjs a while back, thx
  200. # [18:11] * mjs Zakim I mean, it's too early in the morning to be typing!
  201. # [18:11] <Julian> chair: rubys
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  203. # [18:12] <rubys> issue-35
  204. # [18:12] <rubys> issue-35?
  205. # [18:12] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-35
  206. # [18:12] <trackbot> ISSUE-35 -- Need to define processing requirements for aria states and properties when used in html -- OPEN
  207. # [18:12] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/35
  208. # [18:12] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-35 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  209. # [18:12] <Julian> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/35
  210. # [18:12] <Julian> cynthia: making progress, FPWD this month planned
  211. # [18:12] <Julian> cynthia: working on HTML mappings
  212. # [18:13] <rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0279.html
  213. # [18:13] <pimpbot> Title: Re: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2009-08-05 from Ian Hickson on 2009-08-05 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  214. # [18:13] <Julian> cynthia: report again in 3..4 weeks
  215. # [18:13] <Julian> rubys: hixie asked for specific feedback
  216. # [18:13] <Julian> cynthia: differences in WG process
  217. # [18:14] <Julian> cynthia: do not respond before all comments are processed
  218. # [18:14] <Julian> cynthia: ETA 3..4 months
  219. # [18:14] <mjs> q?
  220. # [18:14] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  221. # [18:14] <mjs> q+
  222. # [18:14] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  223. # [18:14] <Stevef> q+
  224. # [18:14] * Zakim sees mjs, Stevef on the speaker queue
  225. # [18:15] <Julian> cynthia: explains the HTML vs ARIA mapping issue
  226. # [18:16] * Joins: DanC (connolly@128.30.52.30)
  227. # [18:16] <Julian> q+
  228. # [18:16] * Zakim sees mjs, Stevef, Julian on the speaker queue
  229. # [18:16] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-work
  230. # [18:16] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  231. # [18:16] <Zakim> +DanC
  232. # [18:16] * mjs wonders if we are going to be using the speaker queue... rubys?
  233. # [18:16] * Julian is this mjs speaking?
  234. # [18:16] * mjs that's not me
  235. # [18:17] * rubys will pull from the speaker queue after the current speaker completes...
  236. # [18:17] * DanC RRSAgent, pointer?
  237. # [18:17] * RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2009/08/06-html-wg-irc#T16-11-52
  238. # [18:17] * Julian who is speaking?
  239. # [18:17] * rubys wonders if it is stevef talking?
  240. # [18:17] * Lachy Julian Stevef is speaking now
  241. # [18:17] * Julian merci
  242. # [18:17] <rubys> ack stevef
  243. # [18:17] * Zakim sees mjs, Julian on the speaker queue
  244. # [18:17] <Julian> SteveF: (misssed this)
  245. # [18:17] * Joins: J_Voracek (irchon@32.134.100.39)
  246. # [18:18] <DanC> q+ murray
  247. # [18:18] * Zakim sees mjs, Julian, murray on the speaker queue
  248. # [18:18] <DanC> ack next
  249. # [18:18] * Zakim sees mjs at the head of the speaker queue
  250. # [18:18] * Zakim sees Julian, murray on the speaker queue
  251. # [18:18] <Julian> mjs: explains hixie's comments
  252. # [18:18] <DanC> I'm interested to see ARIA integrated by reference too, though it's not clear to me how that would work
  253. # [18:19] <annevk> Zakim, passcode?
  254. # [18:19] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), annevk
  255. # [18:19] <Julian> mjs: ...inconsistent state between HTML and ARIA semantics... make non-conforming?
  256. # [18:19] <jgraham> To integrate it by reference it would need to define all the areas of overlap between aria semantics and native semantics
  257. # [18:20] * annevk the conference is full?
  258. # [18:20] <Julian> mjs: ARIA currently says host language can't override
  259. # [18:20] * annevk will follow on IRC then...
  260. # [18:20] * DanC will look into that, annevk
  261. # [18:21] * DanC gathers maciej is pronounced "MAH chey"
  262. # [18:21] <masinter> q+
  263. # [18:21] * Zakim sees Julian, murray, masinter on the speaker queue
  264. # [18:21] <Julian> mjs: q
  265. # [18:21] <Julian> q-
  266. # [18:21] * Zakim sees murray, masinter on the speaker queue
  267. # [18:21] <mjs> to type my remarks into the record:
  268. # [18:21] <rubys> ack murray
  269. # [18:21] * Zakim sees masinter on the speaker queue
  270. # [18:22] <Julian> SteveF: promises feedback next week
  271. # [18:22] <Zakim> -DanC
  272. # [18:22] <mjs> 1) What Ian specifically wants is to make inconsistent states between native markup and ARIA roles/properties noncomforming - right now ARIA doesn't let a host language do that
  273. # [18:22] <Julian> Murray: asks for mechanism to describe conformance
  274. # [18:22] * DanC chats with operator re "conference full"
  275. # [18:23] <Stevef> q+
  276. # [18:23] * Zakim sees masinter, Stevef on the speaker queue
  277. # [18:23] * Quits: J_Voracek (irchon@32.134.100.39) (Client exited)
  278. # [18:23] * Julian who is speaking?
  279. # [18:23] * annevk thanks DanC, it's not really important for me to join though I think
  280. # [18:23] <Zakim> +DanC
  281. # [18:23] <rubys> ack masinter
  282. # [18:23] * Zakim sees Stevef on the speaker queue
  283. # [18:23] * Joins: J_Voracek (irchon@32.134.100.39)
  284. # [18:24] * DanC got the operator to clear some ports, or you can dial 0 rather than a conference code
  285. # [18:24] <mjs> 2) (from my earlier remarks) we should ask PFWG to expedite processing of this specific comment
  286. # [18:24] <Julian> masinter: inclusion vs reference of ARIA
  287. # [18:24] * annevk tries again
  288. # [18:24] <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
  289. # [18:24] <Zakim> +??P12
  290. # [18:24] <Julian> masinter: motivation for the current plan
  291. # [18:24] <annevk> Zakim, ??P12 is me
  292. # [18:24] <Zakim> +annevk; got it
  293. # [18:24] * DanC Zakim, is mike here?
  294. # [18:24] * Zakim DanC, I do not see Mike anywhere
  295. # [18:24] * annevk isn't sure whether it worked because cynthia left or not
  296. # [18:25] <rubys> ack stevef
  297. # [18:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  298. # [18:25] <Stevef> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#host_lang_impl
  299. # [18:25] <pimpbot> Title: Accessible Rich Internet Applications (WAI-ARIA) 1.0 (at www.w3.org)
  300. # [18:25] <kliehm> Murray, the ARIA DTD extends the HTML DTD, but doesn't prohibit any inconsistencies.
  301. # [18:25] * DanC would appreciate a pointer to "the internal editor's draft" -- ah. thanks
  302. # [18:25] <masinter> So I heard Sam say that no one advocated inclusion of ARIA rather than reference to the ARIA spec
  303. # [18:26] <rubys> s/no one advocated/he had not heard of anybody advocating/
  304. # [18:26] <jgraham> I assume the issue is not includion vs reference so much as how much HTML needs to say about the mapping between native semantics and aria semantics
  305. # [18:27] <jgraham> i.e. I assume no one is proposing duplicating aria in HTML
  306. # [18:27] <annevk> Why does ARIA override?
  307. # [18:27] <masinter> i'm doing a text search on ARIA in http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html
  308. # [18:27] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at dev.w3.org)
  309. # [18:28] <Julian> stevef: not sure whether there's a problem with the current draft
  310. # [18:28] <DanC> I think mjs said something about a problem with WAI ARIA not allowing host languages to set conformance requirements; steve can't find any such problem in a current draft
  311. # [18:28] <mjs> can someone provide a link to the current editor's draft?
  312. # [18:28] <DanC> again, http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#host_lang_impl
  313. # [18:28] <pimpbot> Title: Accessible Rich Internet Applications (WAI-ARIA) 1.0 (at www.w3.org)
  314. # [18:28] <rubys> stevef would like ian to reconfirm that he still has an issue with the current draft
  315. # [18:29] <annevk> also, things like " assistive technology SHOULD assign preference to the WAI-ARIA feature" seem incorrect, given that the browser tells something to the assistive technology, not the other way around
  316. # [18:29] <DanC> "The appearance of the name literal of any concrete WAI-ARIA role (see section 7.3.2) as one of these substrings MUST NOT in and of itself make the attribute value illegal in the host-language syntax" -- 6.1.1. Role Attribute
  317. # [18:29] <jgraham> (as a concrete example I believe the issue is things like <input type=radio role=checkbox>
  318. # [18:29] <jgraham> )
  319. # [18:30] * Julian scribe is confused
  320. # [18:31] <annevk> Anne: wouldn't it be better to wait until ARIA is out of LC?
  321. # [18:31] <DanC> mjs, you seem to be reading a comment from hixie; pointer, please?
  322. # [18:31] <annevk> Maciej: that would delay it too much
  323. # [18:31] * Julian thanks for the help
  324. # [18:31] <kliehm> I can imagine designers who want a radio button to *look* like a checkbox, so that's no contradiction then.
  325. # [18:31] <Julian> rubys, pushing back one week
  326. # [18:31] <mjs> DanC, I followed the link from what rubys linked earlier: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/comments/details?comment_id=267
  327. # [18:31] <pimpbot> Title: Comment details - PFWG Public Comments (at www.w3.org)
  328. # [18:32] * annevk very incomplete though, oh well, same old same old
  329. # [18:32] * masinter questions the linking of last call timing, a last call document can make reference to toher unstable documents
  330. # [18:32] <rubys> issue-32?
  331. # [18:32] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-32
  332. # [18:32] <trackbot> ISSUE-32 -- how to provide a summary of a table, e.g. for unsighted navigation? -- OPEN
  333. # [18:32] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/32
  334. # [18:32] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-32 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  335. # [18:32] <Julian> topic: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/32
  336. # [18:32] <DanC> (I concur with a point dbaron made: having groups talk to each other with low latency isn't as good as having individuals get together and talk. There's a time for formal group-to-group stuff, but it should be the exception, not the rule)
  337. # [18:33] * dsinger who is speaking (sorry)?
  338. # [18:33] <Julian> murray: great compromise
  339. # [18:33] <Julian> murray: thanks the people involved
  340. # [18:33] <Julian> q+
  341. # [18:33] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  342. # [18:34] <annevk> s/the/to the/
  343. # [18:34] <rubys> ack julian
  344. # [18:34] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  345. # [18:34] <annevk> Julian: from my point of view the spec is far away from expressing consensus
  346. # [18:34] * Joins: adrianba (adrianba@24.18.238.128)
  347. # [18:34] <annevk> Julian: I would vote for John's draft
  348. # [18:34] <mjs> q+
  349. # [18:34] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  350. # [18:34] <masinter> q+
  351. # [18:34] * Zakim sees mjs, masinter on the speaker queue
  352. # [18:35] <rubys> ack mjs
  353. # [18:35] * Zakim sees masinter on the speaker queue
  354. # [18:35] * Joins: gsnedders_ (gsnedders@83.252.197.103)
  355. # [18:35] <Julian> julian: not satisfied with the compromise
  356. # [18:35] <masinter> I agree with Julian, FWIW
  357. # [18:35] <DanC> (I continue to see shelly object, but I gather she's already made her argument and doesn't feel a need to repeat it. Does anybody have a pointer to something that captures her concerns?)
  358. # [18:35] <rubys> s/shelly/shelley/
  359. # [18:36] <kliehm> zakim, mute me
  360. # [18:36] <Zakim> kliehm should now be muted
  361. # [18:36] <Julian> mjs: asks people to look at the text,. avoiding a vote
  362. # [18:36] * Zakim hears Matt_May's hand up
  363. # [18:36] * Zakim sees masinter, Matt_May on the speaker queue
  364. # [18:36] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
  365. # [18:36] <masinter> I think it is astounding how much debate it took to get this far, and it makes me querstion whether the group is ready to reach last call on schedule
  366. # [18:36] <Laura> John's recap saying table summary is an open question:
  367. # [18:36] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0286.html
  368. # [18:36] <pimpbot> Title: Movement on summary from John Foliot on 2009-08-06 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  369. # [18:37] <Julian> mjs: explains the "should"
  370. # [18:37] <Laura> Steve saying the @summary text is adequate for now but doesn't see it making last call.
  371. # [18:37] <Julian> q+
  372. # [18:37] * Zakim sees masinter, Matt_May, Julian on the speaker queue
  373. # [18:37] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0302.html
  374. # [18:37] <pimpbot> Title: Re: summary attribute compromise proposal from Steven Faulkner on 2009-08-06 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  375. # [18:37] <Laura> Me asking to have summary in the draft marked as open. Sam previously said it is the proper way to handle it.
  376. # [18:37] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0315.html
  377. # [18:37] <pimpbot> Title: Re: summary attribute compromise proposal from Laura Carlson on 2009-08-06 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  378. # [18:37] <Laura> Sam saying @summary is "well on its way" to being closed.
  379. # [18:37] <jgraham> FWIW I don't see any substantial change from the current text taking us closer to a maxima of acceptability
  380. # [18:37] * dsinger shelley also at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0185.html
  381. # [18:37] <Laura> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/08/06/Disappearing-Silverware
  382. # [18:37] <pimpbot> Title: Sam Ruby: Disappearing Silverware (at intertwingly.net)
  383. # [18:37] <Laura> Shelley calling it "painting people into a corner".
  384. # [18:37] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0317.html
  385. # [18:38] <pimpbot> Title: Re: summary attribute compromise proposal from Shelley Powers on 2009-08-06 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  386. # [18:38] <Laura> Leif suggesting that we should have Sam's support for *keeping* it marked as an open.
  387. # [18:38] <masinter> example of difficulties of coming to consensus on authoring conformance requirements
  388. # [18:38] <Julian> mjs: says it's not obsolete (?)
  389. # [18:38] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0319.html
  390. # [18:38] <pimpbot> Title: Re: summary attribute compromise proposal from Leif Halvard Silli on 2009-08-06 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  391. # [18:38] <rubys> ack masinter
  392. # [18:38] * Zakim sees Matt_May, Julian on the speaker queue
  393. # [18:38] <Julian> masinter: issue not addressed
  394. # [18:39] <Julian> masinter: general underlying problem with conformance requirements
  395. # [18:39] * DanC has read http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0185.html from shelley, but I don't see her substantive concerns given there
  396. # [18:39] <pimpbot> Title: Re: summary attribute compromise proposal from Shelley Powers on 2009-08-04 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  397. # [18:39] <dsinger> q+
  398. # [18:39] * Zakim sees Matt_May, Julian, dsinger on the speaker queue
  399. # [18:39] <mjs> q+
  400. # [18:39] * Zakim sees Matt_May, Julian, dsinger, mjs on the speaker queue
  401. # [18:39] <Julian> masinter: discouraged by compromise and time spent on it
  402. # [18:40] <Julian> Matt_May: some of the uncontroversial
  403. # [18:40] <Julian> Matt_May: there are also design considerations
  404. # [18:41] * rubys presumes that laura is not on the call?
  405. # [18:41] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217) (Quit: Laura)
  406. # [18:41] <Julian> Matt_May: "obsolete, but conforming" will cause more discussions
  407. # [18:41] <Zakim> -Laura
  408. # [18:41] <Julian> Matt_May: keep the advice, but no warning needed
  409. # [18:42] <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
  410. # [18:42] <Julian> q-
  411. # [18:42] * Zakim sees Matt_May, dsinger, mjs on the speaker queue
  412. # [18:42] <DanC> q+ murray
  413. # [18:42] * Zakim sees Matt_May, dsinger, mjs, murray on the speaker queue
  414. # [18:42] <rubys> ack matt_may
  415. # [18:42] * Zakim sees dsinger, mjs, murray on the speaker queue
  416. # [18:42] <DanC> ack next
  417. # [18:42] * Zakim sees dsinger at the head of the speaker queue
  418. # [18:42] * Zakim sees mjs, murray on the speaker queue
  419. # [18:42] * Zakim hears Cynthia_Shelly's hand up
  420. # [18:42] * Zakim sees mjs, murray, Cynthia_Shelly on the speaker queue
  421. # [18:42] <Julian> I agree with Matt was saying
  422. # [18:43] * Joins: cshelly (cc93ddfd@128.30.52.43)
  423. # [18:43] <cshelly> q+
  424. # [18:43] * Zakim sees mjs, murray, Cynthia_Shelly, cshelly on the speaker queue
  425. # [18:43] * Julian who is speaking?
  426. # [18:44] * rubys that is dsinger
  427. # [18:44] <cshelly> +1
  428. # [18:44] <annevk> +1
  429. # [18:44] <Julian> dsinger: explains that there's a meta-problem behind @summary
  430. # [18:44] <annevk> (to dsinger)
  431. # [18:44] <rubys> ack mjs
  432. # [18:44] * Zakim sees murray, Cynthia_Shelly, cshelly on the speaker queue
  433. # [18:45] <Julian> mjs: asks masinter to clarify his concern
  434. # [18:45] <Julian> masinter: see Julian's mail
  435. # [18:45] * masinter thought that people were unwilling to talk about meta-problem without a concrete issue to hold it
  436. # [18:45] <rubys> ack murray
  437. # [18:45] * Zakim sees Cynthia_Shelly, cshelly on the speaker queue
  438. # [18:45] <DanC> (+1 to what, cshelly and annevk?)
  439. # [18:45] <annevk> (I mentioned that in my next line, DanC)
  440. # [18:45] <cshelly> +1 to dsinger
  441. # [18:45] <rubys> I belivee that they were +1'ing the notion of the chairs getting together and working out the progress (dsinger's comment)
  442. # [18:46] <DanC> tx
  443. # [18:46] <rubys> s/belivee/believe/
  444. # [18:46] <rubys> s/progress/process/
  445. # [18:46] * masinter doesn't think this is a 'big' issue, it's a placeholder for many other big issues that we haven't even talked about
  446. # [18:47] <Julian> murray: repeats that helping access. for tables is important
  447. # [18:47] <Julian> murray: don't prematurely obsolete
  448. # [18:47] <Julian> murray: lots of work to do left
  449. # [18:48] <rubys> ack Cynthia_Shelly
  450. # [18:48] * Zakim sees cshelly on the speaker queue
  451. # [18:48] <rubys> ack cshelly
  452. # [18:48] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  453. # [18:48] <mjs> I'd like to note again for the record that the text does *not* make the summary attribute obsolete
  454. # [18:48] <Julian> cshelly: new text ok for next draft
  455. # [18:48] <Lachy> q+ on the issue of publishing Working Drafts in the future
  456. # [18:48] * Zakim sees Lachy on the speaker queue
  457. # [18:48] <Julian> mjs, it appears in "12.1 Conforming but obsolete features". Why?
  458. # [18:49] * DanC hopes people don't say "we're happy that Ian made a compromise" too loudly; I don't think he'd like to hear that he's made a compromise; I think he was persuaded by the 2nd-order effect argument
  459. # [18:49] <mjs> Julian, that's the section that defines all the warnings in the spec
  460. # [18:49] <Zakim> -Stevef
  461. # [18:49] * Joins: Julian_ (chatzilla@217.91.35.233)
  462. # [18:49] <Julian_> cshelly: PFWG happy with process
  463. # [18:49] <Julian_> q+
  464. # [18:49] * Zakim sees Lachy, Julian_ on the speaker queue
  465. # [18:50] <Julian_> cshelly: @summary not the most important issue
  466. # [18:50] <mjs> Julian, all the other warnings are for conforming but obsolete features, but the warning for summary is clearly stated in a distinct way, referring to its definition in the <table> section
  467. # [18:51] <Julian_> mjs, not helpful, IHMO. The effect is the same.
  468. # [18:51] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  469. # [18:51] <Stevef> zakim, IPcaller is Stevef
  470. # [18:51] <Zakim> +Stevef; got it
  471. # [18:51] <jgraham> AFAICT the spec is very clear that @summary just triggers a warning section 12.1
  472. # [18:51] * annevk has to go
  473. # [18:51] <Zakim> -annevk
  474. # [18:51] <Julian_> cshelly: proposes a TF
  475. # [18:51] <jgraham> s/warning/warning in/
  476. # [18:51] <rubys> zakim, who is on the queue
  477. # [18:51] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the queue', rubys
  478. # [18:52] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Ping timeout)
  479. # [18:52] <rubys> zakim, who is on the queue?
  480. # [18:52] <Zakim> I see Lachy, Julian_ on the speaker queue
  481. # [18:52] * Julian_ is now known as Julian
  482. # [18:52] <kliehm> Which brings me to the point wether there will a F2F meeting at TPAC 2009?
  483. # [18:52] <rubys> ack next
  484. # [18:52] * Zakim sees Lachy at the head of the speaker queue
  485. # [18:52] <Zakim> Lachy, you wanted to comment on the issue of publishing Working Drafts in the future
  486. # [18:52] * Zakim sees Julian_ on the speaker queue
  487. # [18:53] <Julian> Lachy: do not let procedural and technical issues mix
  488. # [18:53] <mjs> q+
  489. # [18:53] * Zakim sees Julian_, mjs on the speaker queue
  490. # [18:53] <cshelly> q+
  491. # [18:53] * Zakim sees Julian_, mjs, cshelly on the speaker queue
  492. # [18:53] <Julian> Lachy: let (PF)WDs be published without any discussion
  493. # [18:53] <DanC> q+ murray
  494. # [18:53] * Zakim sees Julian_, mjs, cshelly, murray on the speaker queue
  495. # [18:53] <rubys> ack next
  496. # [18:53] * Zakim sees Julian_ at the head of the speaker queue
  497. # [18:53] * Zakim sees mjs, cshelly, murray on the speaker queue
  498. # [18:53] <Stevef> +1 to lachlans suggestion
  499. # [18:53] <Lachy> s/(PF)/(FP)/
  500. # [18:54] <rubys> +1 to lachlan's suggestion
  501. # [18:54] <dsinger> I don't think I can agree that any document can be published from a WG without any discussion or agreement. That's an individual draft.
  502. # [18:54] <cshelly> +1 to dsinger
  503. # [18:54] <Lachy> dsinger, since WD explcitly don't require concensus of the group, what harm does it do?
  504. # [18:55] <jgraham> Maybe any document that has been FPWD may be published again without discussion
  505. # [18:55] <DanC> -1 to lachlan's suggestion. it's healthy that publication decisions re-awaken sleeping dissent and such.
  506. # [18:55] <rubys> ack next
  507. # [18:55] * Zakim sees mjs at the head of the speaker queue
  508. # [18:55] * Zakim sees cshelly, murray on the speaker queue
  509. # [18:55] <Julian> Julian: not "obsolete but conforming" + "produce warning" -> does not compte
  510. # [18:55] <Julian> mjs: reminder about petent review clock for new PFWD
  511. # [18:55] <Lachy> ok, that's fair enough about FPWD due to the patent review issues
  512. # [18:55] <rubys> ack cshelly
  513. # [18:55] * Zakim sees murray on the speaker queue
  514. # [18:55] <masinter> q+
  515. # [18:55] * Zakim sees murray, masinter on the speaker queue
  516. # [18:55] <dsinger> First Public Working Draft: "Entrance criteria: The Chair must record the group's decision to request advancement. Since this is the first time that a document with this short name appears in the Technical Reports index, Director approval is required for the transition."
  517. # [18:56] <Julian> cshelly: points out that what was going on is good; we need to get things out of the way before LC
  518. # [18:56] * Zakim hears Matt_May's hand up
  519. # [18:56] * Zakim sees murray, masinter, Matt_May on the speaker queue
  520. # [18:56] <rubys> ack next
  521. # [18:56] * Zakim sees murray at the head of the speaker queue
  522. # [18:56] * Zakim sees masinter, Matt_May on the speaker queue
  523. # [18:56] * Zakim hears Matt_May's hand down
  524. # [18:56] * Zakim sees masinter on the speaker queue
  525. # [18:56] <mjs> q+
  526. # [18:56] * Zakim sees masinter, mjs on the speaker queue
  527. # [18:56] <Julian> murray: found the discussion helpful, not harmful
  528. # [18:57] <DanC> (FYI, last call comments shouldn't come from WG members; last call is a decision that the WG is done handling its own issues/comments.)
  529. # [18:57] * masinter will note that the patent review clause was devised for a 'discuss before commit' paradigm, and is concerned about editor including text without discussion that is then subject to patent licensing
  530. # [18:57] <rubys> if people who have already had a turn simply wish to repeat comments, I ask that they remove themselves from the queue
  531. # [18:57] * mjs notes that only FPWD and LC trigger patent review, not an ordinary WD
  532. # [18:57] <Julian> murray: points out that there could be multiple levels of warnings
  533. # [18:57] * masinter will raise this with AC rep, not in scope for HTML-WG
  534. # [18:57] <masinter> q-
  535. # [18:57] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  536. # [18:58] <rubys> ack mjs
  537. # [18:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  538. # [18:58] * masinter doesn't think there's been an 'outcome' yet
  539. # [18:59] <cshelly> danc, that's exactly why we need to agree on things before LC. If we don't, then there will be lots of comments from WG members.
  540. # [18:59] <Julian> mjs: connecting technical discussions to procedural ones is dangerous
  541. # [18:59] <masinter> q+ on process vs. technical issues
  542. # [18:59] * Zakim sees masinter on the speaker queue
  543. # [18:59] <Julian> rubys: allowing other peple to produce WDs helps
  544. # [19:00] <dsinger> well, I think if Ian feels that there is a strong consensus which he doesn't agree with, he'll concede
  545. # [19:00] <Julian> s/peple/people/
  546. # [19:00] <cshelly> +1 rubys
  547. # [19:00] <DanC> LC comments from WG members are out of order/non-sensical. LC is a decision that the WG is done. For a WG member to then send a comment doesn't make sense.
  548. # [19:00] <Julian> masinter: wants question to publish clarified
  549. # [19:01] <cshelly> danc, I agree. that's why I think it's important to have these discussions about a public working draft, to force us to discuss and reach consensus
  550. # [19:01] <cshelly> q+
  551. # [19:01] * Zakim sees masinter, cshelly on the speaker queue
  552. # [19:01] <Julian> rubys: explains WD doesn't need to be better of perfect
  553. # [19:01] * Dashiva always thought there would be an "internal LC" before the real LC, when the non-contentious stuff was done
  554. # [19:02] <Julian> masinter: has concerns with the current editor's draft
  555. # [19:02] <jgraham> Having a public working group must change the rules here, surely?
  556. # [19:02] <DanC> the level of consensus should go in the status section. I wonder if we've been doing that.
  557. # [19:02] <jgraham> s/rules/expectations/
  558. # [19:02] <Julian> masinter: proposes sections to be marked as controversial
  559. # [19:02] <dsinger> I surely believe we all have concerns. if there weren't many, we'd be heading into last call :-)
  560. # [19:03] <Julian> rubys: issue marker for @summary is currently missing
  561. # [19:03] <Julian> rubys: will recommend to publish soon
  562. # [19:03] * masinter sent a message
  563. # [19:03] <mjs> cshelley, I will agree that would should resolve issues in a timely way and well before LC, I just think there are healthier ways to do it than using a WD publication as a forcing function
  564. # [19:04] <Julian> cshelly: need to start addressing contentious issues now
  565. # [19:04] <jgraham> In particular because the distinction between "in the working group" and "not in the working group" is very different to other groups; almost anyone with feedback can be "in the working group"
  566. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Lachy
  567. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Radhika_Roy
  568. # [19:04] <Zakim> - +1.519.378.aaee
  569. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
  570. # [19:04] <dsinger> thank you for fine chairing...
  571. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Stevef
  572. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Matt_May
  573. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Julian
  574. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Sam
  575. # [19:04] <Zakim> -DanC
  576. # [19:04] <Zakim> -mjs
  577. # [19:04] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  578. # [19:04] * Quits: Stevef (chatzilla@82.44.69.8) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5/20090624025744])
  579. # [19:04] <Zakim> -kliehm
  580. # [19:04] <Zakim> - +1.703.234.aaaa
  581. # [19:05] <Julian> rrsagent, generate minutes
  582. # [19:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/06-html-wg-minutes.html Julian
  583. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Masinter
  584. # [19:05] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  585. # [19:05] <Zakim> Attendees were Sam, +1.703.234.aaaa, Julian, Radhika_Roy, dsinger, Masinter, +1.415.595.aabb, +47.40.28.aacc, Stevef, Matt_May, +47.40.28.aadd, Lachy, +1.519.378.aaee, Laura, mjs,
  586. # [19:05] <Zakim> ... kliehm, Cynthia_Shelly, DanC, annevk
  587. # [19:05] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52) (Quit: dsinger)
  588. # [19:05] * Quits: kliehm (martin@88.68.72.162) (Quit: kliehm)
  589. # [19:05] <DanC> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  590. # [19:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/06-html-wg-minutes.html DanC
  591. # [19:05] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 06 Aug 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  592. # [19:05] <DanC> RRSAgent, make logs world access
  593. # [19:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, DanC
  594. # [19:06] * Quits: cshelly (cc93ddfd@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
  595. # [19:07] <Julian> s/rubys, pushing back one week/rubys: pushing back one week/
  596. # [19:07] <Julian> rrsagent, generate minutes
  597. # [19:07] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/06-html-wg-minutes.html Julian
  598. # [19:07] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 06 Aug 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  599. # [19:08] <J_Voracek> Goodbye!
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  639. # Session Close: Fri Aug 07 00:00:00 2009

The end :)