/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-08-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 13 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:02] <pimpbot> planet: Is it time to start using HTML5? <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/186264/is-it-time-to-start-using-html5>
  4. # [00:04] <Dashiva> That could use one of those "is it x time yet" websites
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  11. # [01:09] <heycam> trackbot, url?
  12. # [01:09] <trackbot> Sorry, heycam, I don't understand 'trackbot, url?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  13. # [01:09] <pimpbot> Title: IRC Trackbot (at www.w3.org)
  14. # [01:09] <heycam> hmm
  15. # [01:09] <heycam> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/ is what i wanted
  16. # [01:09] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Issue/Action Summary - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  17. # [01:51] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: cross-ref error. (whatwg r3601) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0126.html> ** hixie: Explicitly mention legal case reports as being works for <cite>. (whatwg r3600) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0125.html>
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  44. # [09:53] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7264] make <% start a bogus comment <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0114.html>
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  56. # [11:53] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7268] New: contradicts 4.7.1 wrt implied paragraph boundaries (should not in 4.7.1, not good practice in 4.7.4). dont repeat example or simplify <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0115.html>
  57. # [12:23] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7269] New: user agent requirements: for value=8 max="", step 4 and 11 will cause current value and maximum value to be set to 1, which is destructive (if script wanted to obtain the original value). suggest step 4 change to set maximum to value <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0116.html>
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  61. # [12:50] <anne2> Julian, so the archives are online, but why do I not get a reply then trying to register for the list?
  62. # [13:10] <pimpbot> planet: The exciting parts of HTML 5 <http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2009/exciting-parts-of-html-5/>
  63. # [13:28] <Julian> anne2, dunno. I will have to follow up again. You did re-try to subscribe, right?
  64. # [13:29] <anne2> not yet
  65. # [13:31] <anne2> lets see if it works
  66. # [13:32] <anne2> I e-mailed ietf-charsets-request@iana.org with "SUBSCRIBE IETF-CHARSETS" as message body fwiw
  67. # [13:32] <Julian> so did U
  68. # [13:32] <Julian> I
  69. # [13:32] <Julian> maybe the instructions are incorrect
  70. # [13:32] * tlr is now known as tlr-bbiab
  71. # [13:32] <anne2> not sure if that advice is up to date or not; while the archives are online, it's not toally clear how to interact with the list and URL hacking on the archives yields nothing
  72. # [13:32] <anne2> all a bit ancient
  73. # [13:33] <Julian> that is correct
  74. # [13:36] <anne2> ja :)
  75. # [13:47] <Julian> sent email to IANA
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  78. # [14:20] <anne2> thanks Julian
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  89. # [16:50] <Julian> Lachy, have you heard lately from Joseph Holsten wrt to the "about" URI spec? In case he can't, would you be willing to pick up the work?
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  94. # [16:54] <DanC> rubys, I'm somewhat inclined to volunteer to scribe today. it helps me pay attention
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  96. # [16:55] <rubys> excellent
  97. # [16:56] <rubys> I scribe for the ASF for the same reason
  98. # [16:56] <DanC> also, it lets me arrange the table of contents in the minutes to be full of technical content words (e.g. button-type-radio) rather than boilerplate (review of open actions)
  99. # [16:57] <rubys> would it help if I were to announce moving to the next item in the following way: Issue-35/Action-114 aria-processing
  100. # [16:57] <Lachy> Julian, I haven't heard from him. I will contact him and see what's going on. If he doesn't respond, I can probably continue with it myself
  101. # [16:57] <DanC> yes; better yet: Topic: Issue-35/Action-114 aria-processing
  102. # [16:58] <rubys> cool. I have my own expanded agenda in Tomboy, and I can copy/paste as we go along
  103. # [16:58] <DanC> nifty.
  104. # [17:00] <DanC> part of me wishes Lachlan hadn't asked Shelley to elaborate on her canvas objection; aside from being buried in an irrelevant subject heading, she actually came up with a plausible reason for re-opening the issue: addition of <svg>
  105. # [17:01] <Lachy> DanC, I'm sincerely apologise for encouraging the discussion of valid technical issues. It won't happen again.
  106. # [17:01] <rubys> if she objects to it being a part of the document, and everybody agrees to a normative reference to separate document, and *most importantly* somebody actually does the work, then I'm quite OK with that.
  107. # [17:02] <jgraham> I'm not sure that svg is a substantial piece of new information; the overlap with SVG was debated extensively at the time and it was reasonably clear that they had differnet use cases
  108. # [17:03] <rubys> correct me if I'm wrong, the previous decision was more about "in scope vs out of scope" than "in the same document vs multiple documents", right?
  109. # [17:03] <DanC> Lachy, I said "part of me". yes, it's good to focus on technical stuff.
  110. # [17:04] <Julian> Anne, got a subscription confirmation for iana-charsets
  111. # [17:04] <DanC> rubys, both aspects were discussed, and yes, they're orthogonal
  112. # [17:04] <jgraham> rubys: IIRC yes. But I was responding to DanC
  113. # [17:04] <DanC> but they get conflated sometimes
  114. # [17:04] <rubys> DanC: both were discussed, both get conflated, but what do you view was the primary substance of the decision?
  115. # [17:05] <DanC> scope
  116. # [17:05] <Lachy> Julian, anne2, did you end up finding out where the archive for iana-charsets is?
  117. # [17:05] <DanC> same doc vs different doc is just editorial convenience
  118. # [17:05] <Julian> Lachy, the server was down.
  119. # [17:05] <Julian> It's up again.
  120. # [17:05] <rubys> agreed. I'd rather that Shelley didnconflating the issues.
  121. # [17:05] <rubys> arg...hit enter too soon
  122. # [17:06] <Julian> DanC, it also affects how it can be progressed
  123. # [17:06] <DanC> it might or it might not
  124. # [17:06] <rubys> I'd rather that Shelley didn't conflate the issues, and I'd rather that people didn't respond with a message of "the matter is closed".
  125. # [17:06] <DanC> if there are normative dependencies both ways, it has no impact on progression.
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  127. # [17:07] <Julian> DanC, normaive references both ways are bad
  128. # [17:07] <Julian> DanC, but even then it should be able to progress it separately (but maybe I'm missing something in the W3C standards process)
  129. # [17:08] <DanC> hmm... the matter _is_ closed; i.e. the WG is decided. discussion of the issue (except for requests to reconsider) is out of order, IMO. Some people don't know the history and can be excused for stumbling on it, but eventually we gotta move on.
  130. # [17:08] <Julian> DanC, that being said, I wish canvas was truly optional, and no normative reference was needed
  131. # [17:09] <rubys> DanC: I guess it depends on what the meaning of the word "the" is.
  132. # [17:09] <Philip> (I think it should be possible to have only one-way references from a 2D canvas context spec to the HTML 5 spec, assuming the 2D context was not required for HTML 5 UAs)
  133. # [17:10] <Philip> ((I'm assuming the <canvas> element itself would still be part of HTML 5))
  134. # [17:10] <jgraham> Presumably that wouldn't help canvas progress much faster than HTML5
  135. # [17:11] <Julian> Philip, I'm unhappy with the fact that the <canvas> element needs to be in the HTML5 spec to make things work.
  136. # [17:11] <Julian> Philip, it indicates a broken extensibility model
  137. # [17:11] <Philip> I think Shelley's argument was that it would allow it to progress slower (in the W3C sense of progress), which would be better, because then progress (in the technical sense) wouldn't be frozen by HTML 5 being in LC
  138. # [17:12] <rubys> Philip: s/slower/faster/
  139. # [17:12] <gsnedders> I guess we could get a spec to REC purely describing the 2D context simply because it is basically interoperable already
  140. # [17:12] <DanC> people seem to be making better use of the archives lately. I get stressed when people repeat arguments without noting where it's been said before.
  141. # [17:12] <gsnedders> But that would never go as it would be inaccessible
  142. # [17:12] <Philip> rubys: I did mean slower :-)
  143. # [17:12] <jgraham> "The biggest objection [...] is the fact that web graphics is growing at a pace that far exceeds that for web page markup"
  144. # [17:13] <jgraham> "By the time the HTML 5 specification is ready for CR, the 2D API described within the document will most likely be dated, if not irrelevant"
  145. # [17:13] <rubys> I read what jgraham quoted
  146. # [17:13] <jgraham> I disagree with what she is saying but it seems to be a call to make fater progress not slower
  147. # [17:14] <Philip> "I thought [...] that the possibility of pulling Canvas into a separate effort might be a way of managing the issue about accessibility in Canvas, without holding up last call, and without rushing the accessibility effort."
  148. # [17:15] <Philip> i.e. splitting it out would let it go to LC later (i.e. slower progress (in the W3C sense) than HTML5)
  149. # [17:15] <Philip> without holding up the rest of HTML5
  150. # [17:16] <Philip> (but faster progress (in the technical sense) because it wouldn't be frozen in LC until 2022 when we start working on HTML6)
  151. # [17:16] <jgraham> Philip: Dunno where that is from. If it's from Shelley again I guess she is not being quite consistent
  152. # [17:16] <Philip> jgraham: It is
  153. # [17:16] <Philip> jgraham: I think it's consistent :-)
  154. # [17:16] <Julian> <canvas> as defined today could be done already, but accessible canvas could be done later without affecting HTML5
  155. # [17:16] <jgraham> Philip: Has anyone suggested not working on HTML6 untill 2022?
  156. # [17:18] <jgraham> Julian: Presumably accessible canvas could just as easilly be done in HTML6 if people were to agree to that. *Practically* what happens is when implementations get into the hands of users. Whether the spec with canvas accessibility features in is called HTML5, HTML6, Canvas 1.0, Canvas 2.0 or someothing else is irrelevant
  157. # [17:18] <Philip> jgraham: No, and I presume she doesn't think exactly that, but I presume she presumes that when HTML5 is in LC (and hence shouldn't be adding new features constantly, since it's got to stabilise) it won't be possible to extend <canvas> until much later
  158. # [17:19] <jgraham> Since the spec will /in practice/ stabilise whenever the implementations converge
  159. # [17:19] <jgraham> s/happens/matters/
  160. # [17:19] <Philip> hence worrying about accessibility features missing out if LC happens too soon, and canvas being overtaken by other technologies
  161. # [17:20] <Philip> If I'm presuming right, the concerns could probably be alleviated by being clear that HTML evolution won't stop or slow down just because HTML5 is in LC
  162. # [17:20] <jgraham> Philip: Worrying about canvas being overtaken by other technologies seems silly since it is based on even older, well established, ideas that have not yet been taken over by new technologies
  163. # [17:21] <jgraham> e.g. postscript
  164. # [17:21] <Philip> (though at the moment I don't think it's clear what the process will be for future HTML evolution)
  165. # [17:21] <Dashiva> jgraham: PDF!
  166. # [17:22] <jgraham> Philip: Maybe, but people seem to put a high value on the spec status of things rather than on the practical status
  167. # [17:22] * DanC was pretty blown away by http://logand.com/sw/wps/index.html
  168. # [17:22] <Philip> jgraham: As I understand it, Shelley's concerns were about the practical status being constrained by the spec status
  169. # [17:23] <jgraham> Philip: We don't just have to make Shelley happy
  170. # [17:24] <jgraham> Remeber how upset people were about 2022? I imagine the same reaction again if people decided that <canvas> would not be accessible until 2028 because the spec would not be a Rec. till then
  171. # [17:25] <rubys> jgraham: don't exaggerate. People are reacting to an estimate that canvas accessibility won't be ready until mid-December... 2009.
  172. # [17:25] <Philip> Julian: The problem with splitting out <canvas> entirely is that it interacts in slightly complex ways with other features, e.g. you can pass a canvas ImageData to a worked thread using postMessage
  173. # [17:25] <DanC> issue-60?
  174. # [17:25] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-60
  175. # [17:25] <trackbot> ISSUE-60 -- Reuse of 1999 XHTML namespace is potentially misleading/wrong -- RAISED
  176. # [17:25] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/60
  177. # [17:25] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-60 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  178. # [17:25] <DanC> didn't we close that one? looking...
  179. # [17:26] <rubys> Larry wanted to keep it open, then changed his mind.
  180. # [17:26] <rubys> It's on today's schedule to close.
  181. # [17:26] <rubys> oops, I'm wrong... rechecking.
  182. # [17:27] <Julian> Philip, understood; and that's *exactly* the problem; things that should be orthogonal aren't, and the reason is that they are conveniently being defined in the same doc
  183. # [17:27] <Philip> Julian: and it would presumably be difficult to split everything into acyclically-dependent specs without those interactions becoming a mess
  184. # [17:27] <DanC> ah... right... Larry and Murray wanted more discussion as of 9 July http://www.w3.org/2009/07/09-html-wg-minutes.html#item04
  185. # [17:27] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 09 Jul 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  186. # [17:27] * DanC should probably address Murray's concerns in email
  187. # [17:27] <jgraham> rubys: Not sure how I am exagerratin
  188. # [17:28] <jgraham> er
  189. # [17:28] <jgraham> exaggerating. People initially reacted to HTML5 as if it would not be ready until 2022
  190. # [17:29] <Philip> Julian: That is a problem, but on the other hand it seems bad to constrain language functionality just in order to permit a certain organisation of specs into orthogonal documents
  191. # [17:29] <jgraham> Perahps they have learnt that is not the most reasonable date but it's hard to tell
  192. # [17:30] <anne2> Julian, I got nothing from iana
  193. # [17:30] <Philip> s/worked thread/worker thread/ dozens of lines ago
  194. # [17:33] <Julian> Anne, the mailing list server seems to be owned by Ned Freed, and that's where I got eh conf from.
  195. # [17:33] <Julian> Philip, depends on the constraint.
  196. # [17:34] <anne2> didn't work for me
  197. # [17:34] <Julian> Philip, couldn't a canvas spec define that behavior for postMessage?
  198. # [17:35] <rubys> half facetious answer: julian, I don't know, why don't you give it a try? :-P
  199. # [17:37] <Julian> Sam, you know the answer.
  200. # [17:37] * Joins: gsnedders_ (gsnedders@83.252.194.253)
  201. # [17:37] <rubys> ok. s/don't you/doesn't someone/
  202. # [17:38] <Lachy> Julian, maybe I missed something, but what does postMessage have to do with canvas?
  203. # [17:38] * anne2 emails Ned Freed
  204. # [17:38] <anne2> Lachy, ImageData
  205. # [17:38] <anne2> so you can work on ImageData in a Worker
  206. # [17:38] <Julian> lachy, see what Philip said earlier: "Julian: The problem with splitting out <canvas> entirely is that it interacts in slightly complex ways with other features, e.g. you can pass a canvas ImageData to a worked thread using postMessage"
  207. # [17:40] <Lachy> so? You can pass any object using postMessage to a worker thread.
  208. # [17:41] <Julian> Lachy, ok, so it *is* orthogonal, and could be specified separately
  209. # [17:41] <Dashiva> Lachy: Only structured clones, isn't it?
  210. # [17:41] <anne2> no, you cannot pass any object
  211. # [17:43] <Lachy> anne2, elaborate?
  212. # [17:45] <Philip> Julian: I expect the canvas spec could (it can just override HTML5's definition of structured cloning), but having the definition split across multiple specs would add some complexity (for implementors working out what to do, for testers working out what it should do, and for spec writers having to be careful not to accidentally introduce contradictions or undefined gaps between all the specs)
  213. # [17:45] <anne2> Lachy, e.g. Workers do not support the DOM
  214. # [17:47] <DanC> issue-28?
  215. # [17:47] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-28
  216. # [17:47] <trackbot> ISSUE-28 -- Content type rules in HTML 5 overlaps with the HTTP specification? -- RAISED
  217. # [17:47] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/28
  218. # [17:47] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-28 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  219. # [17:47] <DanC> sam, do you know the status/trajectory of barth's draft?
  220. # [17:47] <DanC> does it live in the http-bis issues list somewhere?
  221. # [17:48] <Julian> sec-from aka origin?
  222. # [17:48] <Julian> or content-sniffing?
  223. # [17:48] <rubys> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-abarth-mime-sniff-01.txt ?
  224. # [17:48] <anne2> DanC, http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-abarth-mime-sniff
  225. # [17:48] <pimpbot> Title: draft-abarth-mime-sniff-01 - Content-Type Processing Model (at tools.ietf.org)
  226. # [17:48] <DanC> yes, that document
  227. # [17:48] <Julian> both are discussed on the HTTPbis mailing list, but they aren't deliverables of the WG
  228. # [17:48] <DanC> I'm wondering how to track the dependency from HTML 5 to that document
  229. # [17:49] <Julian> and thus do not use our issues list
  230. # [17:49] <Julian> define "track"
  231. # [17:50] <rubys> what's the diff in purpose between the www.ietf and tools.ietf domains?
  232. # [17:50] <DanC> maciej suggests closing issue-28 because the text has been moved to [MIMESNIFF]. But that doesn't address the technical overlap with HTTP until the HTTP WG gives it an OK
  233. # [17:51] <rubys> what's the next action to be taken?
  234. # [17:51] * DanC is puzzling over that very question
  235. # [17:52] <anne2> DanC, there's http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML5_spin-offs
  236. # [17:52] <Julian> The HTTP WG can and will not "ok" it, because it's not on our charter
  237. # [17:52] <pimpbot> Title: HTML5 spin-offs - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org)
  238. # [17:52] <Julian> But you probably want to know something else...
  239. # [17:53] <Julian> Does this: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/ticket/155 help?
  240. # [17:53] <pimpbot> Title: #155 (Content Sniffing) – httpbis (at trac.tools.ietf.org)
  241. # [17:53] <Julian> Sam, the versions on tools.ietf.org are more readable, have diffs and metadata
  242. # [17:54] <DanC> ticket 155 is marked fixed... I'm looking for the resolution
  243. # [17:55] * rubys is now known as rubys2
  244. # [17:55] * Joins: rubys1 (rubys@98.27.52.152)
  245. # [17:55] * Parts: smedero (smedero@128.208.133.191)
  246. # [17:55] * rubys1 is now known as rubys
  247. # [17:55] * Joins: smedero (smedero@128.208.133.191)
  248. # [17:55] * Parts: rubys2 (rubys@98.27.52.152)
  249. # [17:55] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
  250. # [17:56] <DanC> oh... and yes, ticket 155 is exactly what I was looking for, Julian
  251. # [17:56] * Joins: adrianba (adrianba@131.107.0.101)
  252. # [17:56] <DanC> I can't tell if ticket 155 is closed/fixed in a way that's compatible with the current HTML 5 spec (which includes draft-abarth by reference)(
  253. # [17:56] <Julian> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/changeset/663 and http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/changeset/592
  254. # [17:57] <pimpbot> Title: Changeset 663 – httpbis (at trac.tools.ietf.org)
  255. # [17:57] <mjs_> good morning
  256. # [17:57] * DanC waves
  257. # [17:57] <Julian> From an HTT point of view all we really changed was to say that there's no default type (when Content-Type is missing)
  258. # [17:57] <DanC> issue-28: note http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/ticket/155
  259. # [17:57] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-28.
  260. # [17:57] <trackbot> ISSUE-28 Content type rules in HTML 5 overlaps with the HTTP specification? notes added
  261. # [17:57] <pimpbot> Title: #155 (Content Sniffing) – httpbis (at trac.tools.ietf.org)
  262. # [17:58] <Julian> We did not change anything about Content-Type defining the type of the payload
  263. # [17:59] <anne2> though it was made clear that applications do not have to follow the mapping if they so desire
  264. # [17:59] <anne2> at least via email
  265. # [18:00] <Julian> The HTTP spec states what the intent of the header is; it doesn't say anything about what a recipient has to do with it.
  266. # [18:00] <rubys> invite rrsagent
  267. # [18:01] <Julian> Trying to say more lead to disagreement in the WG, thus one informative statement was backed out again
  268. # [18:01] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  269. # [18:02] <mjs_> DanC, Julian: I would suggest that whatever the IETF plans to do with the MIMESNIFF draft, it's no longer the HTML WG's issue
  270. # [18:02] * mjs_ is now known as mjs
  271. # [18:02] <DanC> well, as I said in email, since HTML 5 cites MIMESNIFF normatively, it's still part of HTML 5
  272. # [18:02] <DanC> (just said in email)
  273. # [18:02] <Julian> Maciej, as far as I can tell, the IETF doesn't have any plans.
  274. # [18:03] <DanC> i.e. HTML 5 isn't done until MIMESNIFF is done
  275. # [18:03] <Julian> Maciej, it's currently an individual submission, and the author will have to find a way to get it published, either through the RFC-Editor or the IESG.
  276. # [18:03] <rubys> that will block last call?
  277. # [18:03] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
  278. # [18:03] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  279. # [18:03] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  280. # [18:03] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  281. # [18:03] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  282. # [18:03] * Joins: richardschwerdtfe (RichS@99.39.114.91)
  283. # [18:03] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
  284. # [18:03] <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
  285. # [18:03] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
  286. # [18:03] <trackbot> Date: 13 August 2009
  287. # [18:04] <rubys> agenda+ open action items
  288. # [18:04] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
  289. # [18:04] <rubys> agenda+ creation of an HTML Accessibility Task Force
  290. # [18:04] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
  291. # [18:04] <rubys> agenda+ pending review
  292. # [18:04] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
  293. # [18:04] <mjs> my understanding is that citing an Internet-Draft is not a Last Call blocker, but would block PR
  294. # [18:04] <rubys> agenda+ raised (and nominated for closure)
  295. # [18:04] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
  296. # [18:04] <rubys> agenda+ poll
  297. # [18:04] * Zakim notes agendum 5 added
  298. # [18:04] <DanC> shifting some text from one document to another doesn't address the technical issue
  299. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
  300. # [18:05] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  301. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Mike
  302. # [18:05] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-work
  303. # [18:05] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  304. # [18:05] <Zakim> +DanC
  305. # [18:05] <Julian> Maciej, citing an I-D normatively would be a showstopper.
  306. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  307. # [18:05] <Zakim> On the phone I see Rich, Mike, DanC
  308. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Sam
  309. # [18:06] * Joins: msporny_ (msporny@206.158.104.51)
  310. # [18:06] * shepazu Zakim, call shepazu
  311. # [18:06] * Zakim ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  312. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Shepazu
  313. # [18:06] <DanC> scribe: DanC
  314. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Julian
  315. # [18:06] <DanC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JulSep/0014.html
  316. # [18:06] <pimpbot> Title: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2009-08-13 from Sam Ruby on 2009-08-12 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from July to September 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  317. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P20
  318. # [18:06] <msporny_> zakim, I am ??P20
  319. # [18:06] <Zakim> +msporny_; got it
  320. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
  321. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> Zakim, Mike is me
  322. # [18:07] <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
  323. # [18:07] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  324. # [18:07] <rubys> zakim, agenda?
  325. # [18:07] <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
  326. # [18:07] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30)
  327. # [18:07] <Zakim> 1. open action items [from rubys]
  328. # [18:07] <Zakim> 2. creation of an HTML Accessibility Task Force [from rubys]
  329. # [18:07] <dsinger_> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
  330. # [18:07] <Zakim> 3. pending review [from rubys]
  331. # [18:07] <Zakim> 4. raised (and nominated for closure) [from rubys]
  332. # [18:07] <Zakim> 5. poll [from rubys]
  333. # [18:07] <dsinger_> zakim, I am dsinger
  334. # [18:07] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  335. # [18:07] * MichaelC zakim, call cooper-mit
  336. # [18:07] <Zakim> sorry, dsinger_, I do not see a party named 'dsinger'
  337. # [18:08] * Zakim ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
  338. # [18:08] <Zakim> +Cooper
  339. # [18:08] * dsinger_ is now known as dsinger
  340. # [18:08] * rubys thanks DanC for scribing
  341. # [18:08] * DanC Zakim, who's on the phone?
  342. # [18:08] <dsinger> zakim, who is here?
  343. # [18:08] <Zakim> +Matt_May
  344. # [18:08] * Zakim sees on the phone: Rich, MikeSmith, DanC, Sam, Shepazu, Julian, msporny_, Cynthia_Shelly, [Apple], Cooper, Matt_May
  345. # [18:08] * Zakim [Apple] has dsinger
  346. # [18:08] <Zakim> On the phone I see Rich, MikeSmith, DanC, Sam, Shepazu, Julian, msporny_, Cynthia_Shelly, [Apple], Cooper, Matt_May
  347. # [18:08] <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
  348. # [18:08] <Zakim> On IRC I see MichaelC, msporny_, richardschwerdtfe, Zakim, MikeSmith, adrianba, plh, smedero, rubys, gsnedders_, dbaron, Julian, webben, miketaylr, aroben, J_Voracek, myakura,
  349. # [18:08] <Zakim> ... anne2, Sander, tlr, ROBOd, mjs, heycam, dsinger, Lachy, gavin, krijnh, karl, hober, shepazu, jgraham, gavin_, Philip, jmb, inimino, Dashiva, hsivonen, DanC, RRSAgent,
  350. # [18:08] <Zakim> ... gsnedders, Hixie, xover, Yudai, johndrinkwater, marcin, Shunsuke, pimpbot, ed_work, deltab, trackbot, phenny
  351. # [18:09] <Zakim> + +1.206.922.aaaa
  352. # [18:09] * dsinger ok, thx akim
  353. # [18:09] <Zakim> +??P14
  354. # [18:09] <DanC> Zakim, aaaa is Adrian
  355. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Adrian; got it
  356. # [18:09] <johndrinkwater> Zakim, I am ??P14
  357. # [18:09] <Zakim> +johndrinkwater; got it
  358. # [18:09] <rubys> next agedum
  359. # [18:09] <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
  360. # [18:09] <Zakim> agendum 1. "open action items" taken up [from rubys]
  361. # [18:09] <rubys> next agendum
  362. # [18:09] * Zakim thinks agendum 1 was just opened
  363. # [18:09] <Zakim> +mjs
  364. # [18:10] <rubys> Topic: Issue-35/Action-114 aria-processing
  365. # [18:10] <Zakim> -MikeSmith
  366. # [18:10] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aabb
  367. # [18:11] <DanC> Sam: I'd like to get the stuff blocking Ian Hickson's progress unblocked
  368. # [18:11] * Joins: billyjackass (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  369. # [18:11] <DanC> MC: the WAI PF WG is processing last call comments in batch, since they can interact. But since this is blocking progress, perhaps we could tentatively share our response in this case
  370. # [18:12] <DanC> Sam: that would be great
  371. # [18:12] <DanC> MC: I don't have the details to hand...
  372. # [18:12] <billyjackass> Zakim, drop Mike
  373. # [18:12] <Zakim> sorry, billyjackass, I do not see a party named 'Mike'
  374. # [18:12] <billyjackass> Zakim, call Mike
  375. # [18:12] <Zakim> ok, billyjackass; the call is being made
  376. # [18:12] <Zakim> +Mike
  377. # [18:12] <DanC> Rich: there have been several related comments [related to what? scribe could use some help]
  378. # [18:13] <billyjackass> Zakim, drop Mike
  379. # [18:13] <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
  380. # [18:13] <Zakim> -Mike
  381. # [18:13] * shepazu thinks that must have been Hixie :)
  382. # [18:13] * Quits: J_Voracek (irchon@166.190.130.197) (Ping timeout)
  383. # [18:13] * Joins: J_Voracek (irchon@166.135.183.143)
  384. # [18:14] <J_Voracek> My apologies. I encountered an error with my IRC client.
  385. # [18:14] <billyjackass> Zakim, call Mike
  386. # [18:14] <Zakim> ok, billyjackass; the call is being made
  387. # [18:14] <Zakim> +Mike
  388. # [18:14] <DanC> ... where's the best place to send our tentative response?
  389. # [18:14] * Joins: Chris_Wilson (cwilso@71.227.191.122)
  390. # [18:14] <DanC> Sam: on public-html is fine
  391. # [18:14] * DanC Zakim, drop Mike
  392. # [18:14] * Zakim Mike is being disconnected
  393. # [18:14] <Zakim> -Mike
  394. # [18:14] * DanC voicemail again
  395. # [18:14] <DanC> MC: I can collaborate with concerned parties and get that out in a few days
  396. # [18:15] * plh zakim, who is on the phone?
  397. # [18:15] * Zakim sees on the phone: Rich, DanC, Sam, Shepazu, Julian, msporny_, Cynthia_Shelly, [Apple], Cooper, Matt_May, Adrian, johndrinkwater, mjs, +1.415.832.aabb
  398. # [18:15] * Zakim [Apple] has dsinger
  399. # [18:15] * Joins: masinter (user@192.150.10.200)
  400. # [18:15] * Dashiva maybe it should be "is dsinger" instead of has?
  401. # [18:15] <DanC> Rich: current [aria] design is that with the exception of @role, host language overrides.
  402. # [18:15] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  403. # [18:15] <mjs> q+
  404. # [18:15] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  405. # [18:15] * DanC has 2nd thoughts on getting the "gist" of this here
  406. # [18:16] * DanC is drowning
  407. # [18:16] <Zakim> +??P4
  408. # [18:16] * DanC encourages Sam to welcome the new caller
  409. # [18:16] <billyjackass> Zakim, ??P4 is me
  410. # [18:16] <Zakim> +billyjackass; got it
  411. # [18:16] <rubys> welcome mike!
  412. # [18:16] * billyjackass is now known as MikeSmith
  413. # [18:16] <DanC> [discussion of details of @role and other details exceeds scribe's bandwidth]
  414. # [18:17] <rubys> ack mjs
  415. # [18:17] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  416. # [18:17] <DanC> [scribe hopes this will get replayed in email]
  417. # [18:17] <DanC> mjs: I see 2 separate issues here...
  418. # [18:17] <DanC> ... with aria state conflicting with native state...
  419. # [18:17] * Parts: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190) (8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  420. # [18:17] <DanC> ... one is w.r.t. implementation; e.g. [darn; good example missed]...
  421. # [18:18] <dsinger> input type=-radio_button role=check_box ?? what does the assistive tech do?
  422. # [18:18] <DanC> ... 2nd issue is w.r.t. conformance... a host language making something [non?]conforming are [orthoganal?] to the implementation issue
  423. # [18:18] * Chris_Wilson hmm. "The conference is full." Guess I'll just stay on IRC.
  424. # [18:18] * DanC encourages Chris_Wilson to *0 to get an operator to help
  425. # [18:19] * DanC thinks we might need to fix our bridge reservaton
  426. # [18:19] <DanC> MC: tentatively, yes that [help? that=?] is a way we'd be willing to go...
  427. # [18:19] <DanC> mjs: tentative answers are totally OK...
  428. # [18:19] <DanC> mjs: specifically on @role...
  429. # [18:20] <DanC> ... I think Ian and some others are inclined to say some values of @role in some cases are non-conforming; e.g. [help again dsinger?]
  430. # [18:21] * Joins: kliehm (kliehm@88.68.76.70)
  431. # [18:21] * Chris_Wilson is holding for an operator...
  432. # [18:21] <Philip> "< Hixie> e.g. <h1 role=checkbox> shouldn't be valid either, and should act like an <h1> to ATs, not a checkbox"
  433. # [18:21] <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
  434. # [18:21] * dsinger sorry, now I am behind!
  435. # [18:21] <DanC> mjs gives some details regarding strong and not so strong situations...
  436. # [18:21] <Philip> (from #whatwg last night)
  437. # [18:21] <DanC> tx, Philip
  438. # [18:21] <Zakim> + +1.206.528.aacc - is perhaps Chris_Wilson?
  439. # [18:22] <msporny_> DanC: combobox on role="checkbox" should raise a validation error.
  440. # [18:22] <dsinger> I think maciej is asking that some of these conflicts at least should be conformance errors?
  441. # [18:22] <Chris_Wilson> Zakim, Chris_Wilson is me
  442. # [18:22] <Zakim> +Chris_Wilson; got it
  443. # [18:22] <DanC> Rich: that [some @role cases being non-conformting] sounds, tentatively, like something we could work together on, yes.
  444. # [18:22] <msporny_> so <input type="radiobutton" role="combobox" ...> should raise a validation error.
  445. # [18:22] <shepazu> [that all seems reasonable and obvious to me... why would this have been blocking?]
  446. # [18:24] <DanC> mjs: yes, we'll be sure to get adequate review on this... but specifically, there's a prohibition on [more details that sound familiar from public-html email... about a specific ARIA constraint about host langauges overriding]
  447. # [18:25] <msporny_> I was not speaking...
  448. # [18:25] <DanC> Rich: MC, I think we can take this back to the [WAI PF] WG
  449. # [18:25] <mjs> <--- me
  450. # [18:25] <mjs> (maciej)
  451. # [18:25] <Zakim> -johndrinkwater
  452. # [18:25] <mjs> mjs@apple.com
  453. # [18:25] * MichaelC cooper@w3.org
  454. # [18:26] <Zakim> +smedero
  455. # [18:26] <smedero> Zakim, mute me
  456. # [18:26] <Zakim> smedero should now be muted
  457. # [18:26] <DanC> Rich: anybody else in that call/collaboration?
  458. # [18:26] <DanC> mjs: I suggest hsivonen; much of the technical detail I'm relaying come from him
  459. # [18:26] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@71.227.191.122)
  460. # [18:27] <msporny_> Yes, Maciej - appreciate your comments, they have been very helpful (even if I don't agree with all of them)
  461. # [18:27] <DanC> Rich: many thanks for the review comments; these are helpful for crafting the next ARIA draft
  462. # [18:28] <DanC> DanC: so who has the ball?
  463. # [18:28] * Quits: Chris_Wilson (cwilso@71.227.191.122) (Ping timeout)
  464. # [18:28] <DanC> MC: so I can send tentative details. and 2nd, work with macie and hsivonen and Ian
  465. # [18:28] <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
  466. # [18:28] <DanC> action-114 due next week
  467. # [18:28] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-114.
  468. # [18:28] <trackbot> ACTION-114 Report progress on ARIA TF due date now next week
  469. # [18:29] <rubys> Topic: Issue-32/Action-128 table-summary
  470. # [18:29] <rubys> http://dev.w3.org/html5/pf-summary/spec.html
  471. # [18:29] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at dev.w3.org)
  472. # [18:30] * Quits: ChrisWilson (cwilso@71.227.191.122) (Ping timeout)
  473. # [18:30] <DanC> (I couldn't find the relevant part of http://dev.w3.org/html5/pf-summary/spec.html , fwiw)
  474. # [18:30] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at dev.w3.org)
  475. # [18:30] <DanC> action-128?
  476. # [18:30] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-128
  477. # [18:30] <trackbot> ACTION-128 -- Cynthia Shelly to work with PF to find an owner for drafting @summary text proposal -- due 2009-08-06 -- OPEN
  478. # [18:30] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/128
  479. # [18:30] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-128 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  480. # [18:31] * Joins: Chris_Wilson (cwilso@71.227.191.122)
  481. # [18:31] * DanC wonders what "get consensus" means
  482. # [18:32] <mjs> presumably something has to be posted to public-html for this item to be done
  483. # [18:32] <DanC> action-128 due next week
  484. # [18:32] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-128.
  485. # [18:32] <trackbot> ACTION-128 Work with PF to find an owner for drafting @summary text proposal due date now next week
  486. # [18:32] <rubys> Topic: Issue-74/Action-133 canvas-accessibility
  487. # [18:33] * Julian is unsre whether we're making progress on @summary or not...
  488. # [18:33] <DanC> action-133?
  489. # [18:33] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-133
  490. # [18:33] <trackbot> ACTION-133 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to develop an accessibility API and model for canvas as well as attributes to specify alternative content -- due 2009-12-17 -- OPEN
  491. # [18:33] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/133
  492. # [18:33] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-133 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  493. # [18:33] <DanC> Sam: is a december timeframe OK?
  494. # [18:34] <DanC> Rich: I'm working on this... looking at implementation stuff...
  495. # [18:34] <DanC> Cynthia: help from mozilla, opera and/or mac/apple would help
  496. # [18:35] <DanC> dsinger: ok... I've been looking more at accessibility of audio/video, but perhaps we should bump up the priority of canvas accessibility
  497. # [18:36] <DanC> mjs: what would help most in particular?
  498. # [18:36] <DanC> Rich: I'm interested to talk to developers of canvas applications
  499. # [18:37] <DanC> Doug: perhaps the bespin developers?
  500. # [18:37] <DanC> ... things like processing.js that are just images aren't as relevant as something like bespin
  501. # [18:37] <dsinger> There are always 'tour-de-force' demonstrations (like writing an editor in Canvas), but we should probably focus on 'reasonable' uses
  502. # [18:38] <DanC> Cynthia: we'd also like help from somebody that knows the apple accessibility APIs
  503. # [18:38] <Philip> Perhaps canvas graphing libraries are interesting
  504. # [18:38] * Zakim hears Matt_May's hand up
  505. # [18:38] * Zakim sees Matt_May on the speaker queue
  506. # [18:38] <Philip> (Canvas gGames presumably aren't interesting, because they're usually inherently visual and can't be non-visually accessible)
  507. # [18:39] * Zakim hears Cynthia_Shelly's hand up
  508. # [18:39] * Zakim sees Matt_May, Cynthia_Shelly on the speaker queue
  509. # [18:39] <Philip> s/gGames/games/
  510. # [18:39] <DanC> Doug: are there limits to our expectations on canvas accessibility? e.g. a shoot-em-up-game
  511. # [18:39] <rubys> ack next
  512. # [18:39] * Zakim sees Matt_May at the head of the speaker queue
  513. # [18:39] * Zakim sees Cynthia_Shelly on the speaker queue
  514. # [18:39] <rubys> ack next
  515. # [18:39] * Zakim sees Cynthia_Shelly at the head of the speaker queue
  516. # [18:39] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  517. # [18:40] <DanC> Cynthia: yes, a review of the use cases to consider practical limitations makes sense
  518. # [18:40] <kliehm> (Cannot get into telcon, is full) At PF Task Force we agreed to examine the canvas examples on Laura's wiki page and note down use cases. Bespin probably could have a shadow fallback DOM with paragraphs, list items, code, and buttons. We need to identify common cases first, then look for a solution.
  519. # [18:40] <rubys> next agendum
  520. # [18:40] * Zakim thinks agendum 2. "creation of an HTML Accessibility Task Force" taken up [from rubys]
  521. # [18:41] <DanC> Topic: creation of an HTML Accessibility Task Force
  522. # [18:41] <msporny_> +1 for HTML Accessibility Task Force
  523. # [18:41] <DanC> Sam: volunteers for this task force?
  524. # [18:41] <msporny_> (creation of, not volunteering)
  525. # [18:41] <DanC> Doug: I'm interested
  526. # [18:41] <kliehm> +1 (and help reviewing the wiki use cases appreciated)
  527. # [18:41] <dsinger> q+
  528. # [18:41] * Zakim sees dsinger on the speaker queue
  529. # [18:41] * masinter wonders if Flash accessibility could be benchmark
  530. # [18:42] <rubys> ack dsinger
  531. # [18:42] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  532. # [18:42] <jgraham> I thought avoiding the performance penalty of DOM was a goal of bespin
  533. # [18:42] <DanC> Sam: I gather there's plenty of support; any against?
  534. # [18:43] <masinter> This is a HTML-WG telephone call, so I would assume it would be a HTML-WG task force
  535. # [18:43] <DanC> dsinger: I don't think actual technical discussion of accessibility is drowning out other issues in public-html...
  536. # [18:43] <rubys> @masinter: joint, per http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html-task-force
  537. # [18:43] <pimpbot> rubys: Huh?
  538. # [18:43] <mjs> q+
  539. # [18:43] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  540. # [18:43] <DanC> ... and which IPR realm would it work under? [not sure I scribed that right]
  541. # [18:43] * DanC wonders why doug is jumping ahead of mc
  542. # [18:44] <msporny_> I don't support the process of breaking off into a separate group either.
  543. # [18:44] <DanC> dsinger: there are also governance issues... would the TF be advisory? it couldn't make binding decisions because it's not the actual WG
  544. # [18:44] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
  545. # [18:44] <masinter> @rubys I understand now, sorry
  546. # [18:44] <pimpbot> masinter: Huh?
  547. # [18:45] * masinter understands, thanks
  548. # [18:45] <DanC> dsinger: I'm frustrated that process keeps coming up to the exclusion of progress on the technical issues
  549. # [18:45] <rubys> ack next
  550. # [18:45] * Zakim sees mjs at the head of the speaker queue
  551. # [18:45] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  552. # [18:45] <DanC> MC: [missed; help?]
  553. # [18:45] <msporny_> q+ to discuss keeping AT TF on HTML WG mailing list.
  554. # [18:45] * Zakim sees msporny_ on the speaker queue
  555. # [18:45] <kliehm> @jgraham, speed is an issue as canvas is faster than SVG, also convenience: canvas / JavaScript is made for human developers, SVG / XML is output from machines. But keeping objects for re-use in the DOM as a memory could be an argument for developers, enhancing accessibility at the same time.
  556. # [18:45] <pimpbot> kliehm: Huh?
  557. # [18:47] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute Mike
  558. # [18:47] <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I do not know which phone connection belongs to Mike
  559. # [18:47] <DanC> mjs: I think it's fine for people to get together and hash out proposals before bringing them to the HTML WG is fine, but HTML WG decisions need to get a healthy amount of discussion in public-html...
  560. # [18:47] * Zakim hears Cynthia_Shelly's hand up
  561. # [18:47] * Zakim sees msporny_, Cynthia_Shelly on the speaker queue
  562. # [18:47] <rubys> ack next
  563. # [18:47] * Zakim sees msporny_ at the head of the speaker queue
  564. # [18:47] <Zakim> msporny_, you wanted to discuss keeping AT TF on HTML WG mailing list.
  565. # [18:47] * Zakim sees Cynthia_Shelly on the speaker queue
  566. # [18:47] <MichaelC> q+ to say I expect it would be ok to use the HTML list as the task force list
  567. # [18:47] * Zakim sees Cynthia_Shelly, MichaelC on the speaker queue
  568. # [18:47] <DanC> ... also, it's not good to spend _too_ much time baking proposals, because that can [raise social issues] too
  569. # [18:48] <rubys> ack next
  570. # [18:48] * Zakim sees Cynthia_Shelly at the head of the speaker queue
  571. # [18:48] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  572. # [18:48] <DanC> manu: I think it's fine to use the public-html mailing list [I think I missed the gist of his point]
  573. # [18:49] <msporny_> q+ to discuss expertise not being valued (RDFa experience)
  574. # [18:49] * Zakim sees MichaelC, msporny_ on the speaker queue
  575. # [18:49] <dsinger> q+ to admit he's thinking of something similar...
  576. # [18:49] * Zakim sees MichaelC, msporny_, dsinger on the speaker queue
  577. # [18:49] <DanC> Cynthia: with some hesitation, I feel obliged to bring up culture differences. I've been contacted by people who have posted to public-html and the response seemed like a flame
  578. # [18:49] <rubys> ack next
  579. # [18:49] * Zakim sees MichaelC at the head of the speaker queue
  580. # [18:49] <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say I expect it would be ok to use the HTML list as the task force list
  581. # [18:49] * Zakim sees msporny_, dsinger on the speaker queue
  582. # [18:49] <masinter> q+ tasks forces are a well-known way of getting focus on particular topics.
  583. # [18:49] * Zakim masinter, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  584. # [18:50] <rubys> ack next
  585. # [18:50] * Zakim sees msporny_ at the head of the speaker queue
  586. # [18:50] <Zakim> msporny_, you wanted to discuss expertise not being valued (RDFa experience)
  587. # [18:50] * Zakim sees dsinger on the speaker queue
  588. # [18:50] <masinter> q?
  589. # [18:50] * Zakim sees dsinger on the speaker queue
  590. # [18:50] <DanC> MC: xtech was our original proposal so as not to deluge public-html, but perhaps public-html would work... I could discuss that with concerned parties
  591. # [18:51] <DanC> ... there's also a question of which tracker to use
  592. # [18:51] * Philip notes that the HTML/Forms task force seemed to be a complete failure
  593. # [18:51] <rubys> ack next
  594. # [18:51] * Zakim sees dsinger at the head of the speaker queue
  595. # [18:51] <Zakim> dsinger, you wanted to admit he's thinking of something similar...
  596. # [18:51] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  597. # [18:51] * Joins: adele (adele@17.246.19.228)
  598. # [18:51] <richardschwerdtfe> q+
  599. # [18:51] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
  600. # [18:51] <dsinger> I have discussed with a few people having an informal get-together to talk over issues, ideas, and experiments for audio/video accessibility. We will probably try to organize this before the TPAC, so ideas that come up can be brought back to the tech. meetings.
  601. # [18:51] <DanC> Manu: my experience is that when we engaged the HTML WG directly, that's when the bulk of the useful feedback came. So while I'm sympathetic to the flaming concerns, I don't think that [should be the overriding factor?]
  602. # [18:52] * masinter thinks you can have a private mailing list but encourage everyone to use the public-html list except if things get too hot there
  603. # [18:52] <rubys> next agendum
  604. # [18:52] * Zakim sees a speaker queue remaining and respectfully declines to close this agendum
  605. # [18:52] <rubys> ack next
  606. # [18:52] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe at the head of the speaker queue
  607. # [18:52] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  608. # [18:52] <dsinger> So, I am not opposed to smaller groups getting together to discuss ideas - I am in favor!
  609. # [18:53] <DanC> dsinger: I'm hesitant about formalizing a task force, though I'm fine with small groups getting together to make proposals; I'm engaged in doing that myself with video/audio accessibility
  610. # [18:53] <mjs> I think on canvas accessibility and video accessibility, technical discussion of the issues will be much more productive
  611. # [18:53] <rubys> next agendum
  612. # [18:53] * Zakim thinks agendum 3. "pending review" taken up [from rubys]
  613. # [18:53] <mjs> and posting on public-html will be a great way to recruit technical help
  614. # [18:53] <rubys> Topic: Action-34 authoring-guide
  615. # [18:53] * dsinger sorry about the un-muted achooo!
  616. # [18:54] * Quits: Chris_Wilson (cwilso@71.227.191.122) (Ping timeout)
  617. # [18:54] <MikeSmith> action-34 is not related to any of my actions
  618. # [18:54] <DanC> DanC: I'm inclined to close/withdraw
  619. # [18:54] <rubys> Topic: Action-106 test-suite-coordination
  620. # [18:54] <DanC> close ACTION-34
  621. # [18:54] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-34.
  622. # [18:54] <trackbot> ACTION-34 Prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for publication in some way, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference closed
  623. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> action-106?
  624. # [18:55] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-106
  625. # [18:55] <trackbot> ACTION-106 -- Dan Connolly to work out with co-chair and staff how to spark test suite coordination next week -- due 2009-06-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  626. # [18:55] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/106
  627. # [18:55] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-106 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  628. # [18:55] <DanC> DanC: I
  629. # [18:56] <DanC> DanC: I'm ambivalent about keeping test suite stuff in the tracker
  630. # [18:57] <DanC> ACTION: Doug look at ways to integrate test from browsers into a WG test suite
  631. # [18:57] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  632. # [18:57] * RRSAgent records action 1
  633. # [18:57] <trackbot> Created ACTION-134 - Look at ways to integrate test from browsers into a WG test suite [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-08-20].
  634. # [18:57] <DanC> action-134 due 15 Sep
  635. # [18:57] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-134.
  636. # [18:57] <trackbot> ACTION-134 Look at ways to integrate test from browsers into a WG test suite due date now 15 Sep
  637. # [18:57] <DanC> close action-106
  638. # [18:57] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-106.
  639. # [18:57] <trackbot> ACTION-106 Work out with co-chair and staff how to spark test suite coordination next week closed
  640. # [18:57] <rubys> Topic: Action-115 TPAC-participants-signup
  641. # [18:57] <DanC> Sam: I'm willing to make an announcement about TPAC registration
  642. # [18:57] <rubys> Topic: Issue-4/Action-129 html-versioning
  643. # [18:58] * Quits: adele (adele@17.246.19.228) (Quit: adele)
  644. # [18:58] <DanC> close action-129
  645. # [18:58] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-129.
  646. # [18:58] <trackbot> ACTION-129 insure that the versioning discussion at least touches on XHTML 2 interactions with the /1999/xhtml namespace closed
  647. # [18:58] <masinter> action-129?
  648. # [18:58] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-129
  649. # [18:58] <trackbot> ACTION-129 -- Larry Masinter to insure that the versioning discussion at least touches on XHTML 2 interactions with the /1999/xhtml namespace -- due 2009-08-13 -- CLOSED
  650. # [18:58] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/129
  651. # [18:58] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-129 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  652. # [18:59] <rubys> next agendum
  653. # [18:59] * Zakim thinks agendum 4. "raised (and nominated for closure)" taken up [from rubys]
  654. # [18:59] * Joins: cyns (836b0052@128.30.52.43)
  655. # [18:59] * Joins: Chris_Wilson (cwilso@71.227.191.122)
  656. # [18:59] * Chris_Wilson grr... computer and network problems this morning.
  657. # [18:59] * masinter wonders if the person who raised the issue is satisfied with closing it
  658. # [18:59] <DanC> +1 a summary of why to close for each issue, please
  659. # [19:00] <DanC> mjs: I think there's cruft in the issue tracker...
  660. # [19:00] <msporny_> +1 for cruft in the issue tracker, and support Maciej's efforts to close items.
  661. # [19:01] <dsinger> notes that if we make a mistake, it's not exactly hard to create issues etc.
  662. # [19:01] <dsinger> so as long as we close 'without prejudice' i.e. allowing people to re-open without lots of justification, we're fine
  663. # [19:01] <masinter> q+
  664. # [19:01] * Zakim sees masinter on the speaker queue
  665. # [19:02] * rubys counts 14
  666. # [19:02] <masinter> Is there a way of insuring that the people who raised the issue in the first place have had a chance to respond to closing it?
  667. # [19:02] * dsinger we can't force people to pay attention
  668. # [19:02] <dsinger> perhaps the name of the raiser could be indicated on each issue, in the email?
  669. # [19:03] <mjs> I can Cc the originators
  670. # [19:03] <dsinger> e.g. issue-314159 (raised by Mordred) should the HTML WG kill orcs?
  671. # [19:03] <DanC> [discussion of mechanics]
  672. # [19:03] <rubys> next agendum
  673. # [19:03] * Zakim sees a speaker queue remaining and respectfully declines to close this agendum
  674. # [19:03] <rubys> ack next
  675. # [19:03] * Zakim sees masinter at the head of the speaker queue
  676. # [19:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  677. # [19:04] <DanC> Sam: ok, so a separate message for each message to public-html, copied to the originator and a summary on the announce list
  678. # [19:04] <rubys> next agendum
  679. # [19:04] * Zakim thinks agendum 5. "poll" taken up [from rubys]
  680. # [19:04] * smedero notes that as an FYI, the "Raised By" in our issue tracker isn't always the person who really raised the issue... some close reading might be necessary
  681. # [19:04] <rubys> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd08/
  682. # [19:04] <DanC> Sam: reminder, the poll is ongoing
  683. # [19:04] * dsinger awesome chairing!!
  684. # [19:05] * dsinger my regrets for next week, if that's the question (on a 'plane, alas)
  685. # [19:05] <Chris_Wilson> Sam and I work that out every week.
  686. # [19:05] <Chris_Wilson> Neither of us are oof.
  687. # [19:05] <Zakim> -mjs
  688. # [19:05] <Zakim> - +1.415.832.aabb
  689. # [19:05] <Zakim> -billyjackass
  690. # [19:05] <Zakim> -smedero
  691. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Matt_May
  692. # [19:05] <Zakim> -DanC
  693. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Sam
  694. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Cooper
  695. # [19:05] <Zakim> -msporny_
  696. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Adrian
  697. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Chris_Wilson
  698. # [19:05] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  699. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
  700. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Julian
  701. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Shepazu
  702. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Rich
  703. # [19:05] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  704. # [19:05] <Zakim> Attendees were Rich, DanC, Sam, Shepazu, Julian, msporny_, Cynthia_Shelly, MikeSmith, dsinger, Cooper, Matt_May, +1.206.922.aaaa, Adrian, johndrinkwater, mjs, +1.415.832.aabb,
  705. # [19:05] <Zakim> ... Mike, billyjackass, +1.206.528.aacc, Chris_Wilson, smedero
  706. # [19:05] <Chris_Wilson> (sry, I had a likely conflict this morning, which is why Sam picked today up - which turned out to be good, due to tech problems on my end.
  707. # [19:05] * smedero thinks Chris_Wilson is kinda oofy
  708. # [19:06] <DanC> regrest+ Chris_Wilson
  709. # [19:06] <DanC> regrets+ Chris_Wilson
  710. # [19:06] * DanC welcomes help noting regrets
  711. # [19:06] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52) (Quit: dsinger)
  712. # [19:06] * kliehm regrets for next week due to operation
  713. # [19:07] <smedero> regrets+ Laura_Carlson
  714. # [19:08] <kliehm> present+ kliehm
  715. # [19:08] * Quits: kliehm (kliehm@88.68.76.70) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.2/20090729225027])
  716. # [19:08] * DanC rushes off to next telcon... will check back in to finish minutes later...
  717. # [19:08] * Quits: J_Voracek (irchon@166.135.183.143) (Client exited)
  718. # [19:08] * johndrinkwater wonders if shelley’s email on the list is a regrets
  719. # [19:08] * Quits: Chris_Wilson (cwilso@71.227.191.122) (Quit: Chris_Wilson)
  720. # [19:16] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  721. # [19:24] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Client exited)
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  723. # [19:27] * Parts: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30)
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  728. # [19:56] <hober> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd08/results is publicly visible but http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd08/results?view=compact is member-only, weird
  729. # [19:56] <pimpbot> Title: Results of Questionnaire Publish HTML 5 update with or without warnings? - Web-Based Straw-poll and Balloting System (at www.w3.org)
  730. # [19:57] * Quits: cyns (836b0052@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC)
  731. # [19:57] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.21.231.121) (Quit: Leaving...)
  732. # [19:59] * Quits: mjs (mjs@69.181.42.237) (Quit: mjs)
  733. # [20:00] * Joins: mjs (mjs@69.181.42.237)
  734. # [20:00] * Quits: mjs (mjs@69.181.42.237) (Quit: mjs)
  735. # [20:03] <rubys> hober: I guess that's a way to encourage membership. :-)
  736. # [20:28] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233)
  737. # [20:36] * anne2 is a bit lost as to why Shelley wanted to split of <canvas> again
  738. # [20:42] <pimpbot> planet: 50 Chrome Experiments and counting! <http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/blogspot/Egta/~3/JfjUf7Jyv98/50-chrome-experiments-and-counting.html>
  739. # [20:43] * Quits: masinter (user@192.150.10.200) (Ping timeout)
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  743. # [21:02] <rubys> hsivonen: you around?
  744. # [21:02] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.203.14.161)
  745. # [21:03] <rubys> mjs: do you think the following captured what happened in the meeting? http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/08/12/Mountain-Mohammed-Mohammed-Mountain-Please-Talk#c1250189423
  746. # [21:03] <pimpbot> Title: Sam Ruby: Mountain, Mohammed; Mohammed, Mountain; Please Talk (at intertwingly.net)
  747. # [21:04] <hsivonen> rubys: for a short while, yes
  748. # [21:04] <mjs> rubys: looking...
  749. # [21:04] <hsivonen> (just came back, haven't read scrollback, yet)
  750. # [21:04] <rubys> hsivonen: take a look at the link I just posted
  751. # [21:05] <mjs> rubys: the specific example I used of an element with strong semantics was <input type="radiobutton">, and the fact that there is no way it can act as a combobox, even if you put role="combobox" on it
  752. # [21:05] <mjs> rubys: I think <h1> is a fine example too
  753. # [21:06] <mjs> rubys: otherwise, I think your summary is accurate
  754. # [21:06] <hsivonen> rubys: what you summarize as what Maciej said is pretty similar to my ideas from March 2008: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/aria-html5-bis/
  755. # [21:06] <pimpbot> Title: ARIA in HTML5 Integration: Document Conformance (Draft, Take Two) (at hsivonen.iki.fi)
  756. # [21:06] <rubys> I actually like <h1> as it is clearer. I did make reference to the type attribute later
  757. # [21:07] <mjs> rubys: thank you for arranging things so people could actually talk - I feel that ~15 minutes of telecon time was more valuable than all the back and forth on this so far
  758. # [21:07] <rubys> hsivonen: I hadn't seen that before.
  759. # [21:07] <hsivonen> I'm happy to see ARIA going in the direction of taking host language semantics into account.
  760. # [21:08] <hsivonen> rubys: note that that blog post of mine talks only about conformance, because I deferred to Aaron Leventhal on UA implementation req point of view.
  761. # [21:08] <rubys> mjs: and thank you for actually attending. I didn't understand the issue until I heard both "sides" together.
  762. # [21:09] <mjs> I think my feedback was pretty similar to what hsivonen and Hixie have said in the past, but perhaps some combination of the telecon format and my framing helped understanding
  763. # [21:14] <mjs> hsivonen: off the top of your head, can you think of specs that were split out of HTML5 by someone other than Hixie?
  764. # [21:15] <hsivonen> mjs: XHR is now edited by Anne
  765. # [21:15] <smedero> XHR
  766. # [21:15] <mjs> I know about XHR - was wondering if there are other examples
  767. # [21:15] <DanC> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  768. # [21:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/13-html-wg-minutes.html DanC
  769. # [21:15] <hsivonen> mjs: Lachy has the selector API, though I'm not sure if it ever was in html5
  770. # [21:16] <mjs> there's MIMESNIFF and WEBADDRESS
  771. # [21:16] <mjs> selectors API managed to avoid ever making it in
  772. # [21:16] <hsivonen> ok
  773. # [21:17] <smedero> http://simon.html5.org/specs/web-dom-core ?
  774. # [21:17] <pimpbot> Title: Web DOM Core (at simon.html5.org)
  775. # [21:18] <mjs> is Simon going to propose that to Web Apps WG at some point?
  776. # [21:30] * Quits: msporny_ (msporny@206.158.104.51) (Quit: BitchX: now with flavor crystals!)
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  779. # [22:00] <anne2> mjs, he did, but wanted someone else to be editor
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  782. # [22:04] <jgraham> OK I want anolis to read input from stdin, write to stdout or to read from a file and write to a file or some combination of the two (e.g. read from stdin write to a file)
  783. # [22:04] <jgraham> What's the best command line syntax to use?
  784. # [22:04] <jgraham> cat file > anolis - output.html
  785. # [22:04] <jgraham> maybe?
  786. # [22:05] * Parts: richardschwerdtfe (RichS@99.39.114.91)
  787. # [22:05] <jgraham> I don't really like that and optparse might not either
  788. # [22:05] * jgraham meant to write this in #whatwg
  789. # [22:05] <gsnedders_> jgraham: fail
  790. # [22:05] <Philip> I assume you mean s/>/|/
  791. # [22:06] <jgraham> cat file | anolis -stdin output.html maybe?
  792. # [22:06] <jgraham> Philip: yes
  793. # [22:06] <jgraham> Seems kinda verbose
  794. # [22:07] <jgraham> cat file | anolis -o output.html
  795. # [22:07] <Philip> It'd be easier (and more like typical Unix tools, I think) if you didn't allow a combinaion, i.e. if you only allowed "anolis input output" and "cat input | anolis > output"
  796. # [22:07] <jgraham> I guess that would work
  797. # [22:07] <Philip> Otherwise it's easy to get mixed up and accidentally overwrite the sole copy of your un-backed-up input file
  798. # [22:09] * Philip is incidentally starting to think backups are a good idea, since his laptop suddenly refused to boot and he doesn't have any easy way of accessing the stuff on its disk
  799. # [22:10] <Philip> (though fortunately someone on the internet a year ago suggested twisting the laptop when turning it on, which solved the problem so now I can copy everything to an external disk)
  800. # [22:11] * Joins: aroben (aroben@71.58.77.15)
  801. # [22:16] <jgraham> How does one twist a laptop?
  802. # [22:18] * gsnedders_ wonders if jgraham shouldn't be doing something with family and not working on Anolis and talking on IRC…
  803. # [22:21] <Philip> jgraham: The same as one would twist any other approximation of a quadrilateral
  804. # [22:22] <Philip> (It helps that it's made of plastic rather than metal, and is therefore quite bendy)
  805. # [22:26] <rubys> http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/html5.htm#
  806. # [22:26] <pimpbot> Title: Windows Internet Explorer Testing Center (at samples.msdn.microsoft.com)
  807. # [22:26] <rubys> has anybody here seen this before?
  808. # [22:26] <smedero> yep
  809. # [22:27] <rubys> thoughts? good, bad, indifferent?
  810. # [22:27] <smedero> I think it is noted on a wiki or an issue somewhere as well.
  811. # [22:27] <smedero> well DanC and I looked at it because if you look at the source
  812. # [22:27] <smedero> http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/HTML5/DOMStorage/localStorage.htm
  813. # [22:27] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 Test Suite: localStorage object (at samples.msdn.microsoft.com)
  814. # [22:27] <smedero> there is stuff like
  815. # [22:27] <smedero> <meta name="assert" content="5.10.1.2 - localStorage object that can be initialized is not null." />
  816. # [22:28] <smedero> and we wondered if there was a way to automate match a test to a spec section
  817. # [22:28] <Philip> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Testsuite links to them
  818. # [22:28] <pimpbot> Title: Testsuite - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org)
  819. # [22:29] <Philip> http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/spec.html automates matching tests to spec sentences
  820. # [22:29] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at philip.html5.org)
  821. # [22:30] <smedero> Oooh
  822. # [22:30] <smedero> at some point in the future I'd like to pick your brain then.
  823. # [22:30] <smedero> non-invasively
  824. # [22:31] <Philip> rubys: At least for their DOM Storage tests, they're far less comprehensive than is needed
  825. # [22:32] <Philip> (They seem reasonable at testing the basic functionality is supported, though)
  826. # [22:33] <Philip> (but there's all sorts of other stuff that ought to be tested, like what happens when you store \u0000 or \ud800 (which caused IE8 betas to make their storage XML files ill-formed))
  827. # [22:33] * smedero was wondering if that was fixed before IE8 went final
  828. # [22:34] <Philip> smedero: I believe it was
  829. # [22:34] <rubys> I'm trying to convince the authors of those tests to join IRC... hopefully it will happen at some point.
  830. # [22:34] <Philip> (though I don't remember what the fix was)
  831. # [22:34] <Philip> (It might have just ignored ill-formed strings instead of storing them in the XML, or something, which is non-conforming but less severely broken)
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  834. # [22:35] <Philip> I started trying to write some storage tests myself last year, but it was hard and I got bored so I never got very far
  835. # [22:37] <Philip> smedero: My spec-sentence-matching thing basically involves copying sentences into http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/spec.yaml with some special markers, then referencing them from tests, and then some code links everything up (and complains if the spec changed so the sentences don't match any more)
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  838. # [22:40] <Philip> (Fortunately Hixie is lazy and doesn't change the text unnecessarily, so mostly the matches are quite stable)
  839. # [22:41] <smedero> thanks for sharing that
  840. # [22:45] <Philip> Feel free to ask for more brain pickings if you wish
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  846. # [23:56] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Note that pushState() doesn't imply onhashchange. (whatwg r3603) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0127.html>
  847. # [23:59] <Dashiva> That edit seemed to contain a lot of other changes too
  848. # Session Close: Fri Aug 14 00:00:00 2009

The end :)