/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-08-14 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 14 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:04] * Quits: heycam (cam@203.217.91.14) (Quit: bye)
  4. # [00:11] * Quits: adele (adele@17.244.59.59) (Quit: adele)
  5. # [00:18] * Quits: smedero (smedero@128.208.133.191) (Quit: smedero)
  6. # [00:24] * Quits: plh (plh@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Ooops, I crashed)
  7. # [00:43] * Joins: heycam (cam@130.194.72.84)
  8. # [00:47] * Quits: tH (Rob@82.4.89.172) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
  9. # [00:59] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Quit: tlr)
  10. # [01:03] * Quits: aroben (aroben@71.58.77.15) (Connection reset by peer)
  11. # [01:17] * Quits: mkozakewich (mkozakewic@74.198.8.57) (Quit: mkozakewich)
  12. # [01:43] <pimpbot> planet: Is it currently "safe" to use arrows from htmlentities instead of arrow images? <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1275123/is-it-currently-safe-to-use-arrows-from-htmlentities-instead-of-arrow-images> ** Survivor: W3C <http://realtech.burningbird.net/semantic-web/semantic-web-issues-and-practices/survivor-w3c> ** Deprecated is Now Obsolete <http://realtech.burningbird.net/deprecated-is-now-obsolete> ** One Table in a Thousand
  13. # [01:44] <Dashiva> pimpbot needs to learn about maximum message length
  14. # [01:44] <pimpbot> Dashiva: Huh?
  15. # [01:47] * Parts: rubys (rubys@98.27.52.152)
  16. # [01:57] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Yet another example of how context-sensitive markup leads to brittle copy-and-paste behaviour. Context-sensitive markup like prefixes: just say no! (whatwg r3604) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0128.html>
  17. # [01:57] * Quits: DanC (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  18. # [02:27] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: typos (whatwg r3605) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0129.html>
  19. # [02:57] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Ack for last checkin (whatwg r3607) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0131.html> ** hixie: appcache: Always allow cross-scheme networking to work unaffected. Clarify rules about syntax of manifests regarding schemes and the like. (whatwg r3606) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0130.html>
  20. # [03:27] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: typo (whatwg r3608) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0132.html>
  21. # [03:56] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Ping timeout)
  22. # [03:57] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233)
  23. # [04:34] * Joins: myakura (myakura@122.29.95.48)
  24. # [04:40] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.246.19.10) (Quit: mjs)
  25. # [05:01] * Joins: adele (adele@24.7.123.50)
  26. # [05:28] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7272] New: The explanatory text and the diagram suggest that legs and tails should be th, rather than td -- but the example has td. JimJJewett@gmail <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0117.html>
  27. # [05:28] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: s/all/most/ legacy UAs, in intro (whatwg r3609) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0133.html>
  28. # [05:41] * Quits: adele (adele@24.7.123.50) (Quit: adele)
  29. # [05:49] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58) (Quit: O public road, I say back I am not afraid to leave you, yet I love you, you express me better than I can express myself.)
  30. # [05:56] * Joins: mjs (mjs@69.181.42.237)
  31. # [06:01] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58)
  32. # [06:28] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Remove an 'actually'. (whatwg r3613) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0137.html> ** hixie: the term 'per-element partition' was thrown overboard in the xmlns update. (whatwg r3612) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0136.html> ** hixie: Encourage lowercase DOCTYPE names subtly. (whatwg r3611) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0135.html>
  33. # [06:28] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7276] New: "tree order" -- is this a section that can assume formal compsci training, or should a short (4 nodes?) example be given? JimJJewett@gmail <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0121.html> ** [Bug 7275] New: "The markup snippet at the top of this section" should be a link to that snippet; the section is long enough that the snippet will already have scrolled off-screen for some people. (In my case, i
  34. # [06:58] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7277] New: """(This is only a "SHOULD" and not a "MUST" requirement because it has been proven to be impossible.""" There has to be better wording than 'should do the impossible'. Should attempt to verify? Impossible in some cases? JimJJewett@gmail <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0122.html>
  35. # [07:28] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: typo (whatwg r3614) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0138.html>
  36. # [07:28] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7277] """(This is only a "SHOULD" and not a "MUST" requirement because it has been proven to be impossible.""" There has to be better wording than 'should do the impossible'. Should attempt to verify? Impossible in some cases? JimJJewett@gmail <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0123.html>
  37. # [07:58] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Fixed a dangling clause. No idea what I meant by it originally. (whatwg r3617) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0141.html> ** hixie: no idea how _this_ typo came to be. I thought I copied and pasted this text all over the place. How did just one get screwed up? (whatwg r3616) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0140.html> ** hixie: typo (whatwg r3615) <http://lists.w3.
  38. # [08:14] * Joins: ryanm (ryanm@71.218.121.23)
  39. # [08:25] * Quits: ryanm (ryanm@71.218.121.23) (Quit: ryanm)
  40. # [08:30] * Joins: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@67.185.151.94)
  41. # [09:28] * Joins: gsnedders_ (gsnedders@83.252.194.253)
  42. # [09:36] * Quits: heycam (cam@130.194.72.84) (Quit: bye)
  43. # [10:02] * Joins: heycam (cam@203.217.91.14)
  44. # [10:08] * Quits: gsnedders_ (gsnedders@83.252.194.253) (Quit: gsnedders_)
  45. # [10:10] * Quits: webben (benh@217.12.15.52) (Quit: Lost terminal)
  46. # [10:41] * Quits: mjs (mjs@69.181.42.237) (Quit: mjs)
  47. # [10:48] * Quits: ed_work (ed@88.131.66.80) (Quit: ed_work)
  48. # [10:52] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38)
  49. # [10:54] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169)
  50. # [10:55] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Client exited)
  51. # [10:58] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.29.95.48) (Quit: Leaving...)
  52. # [11:05] * Joins: ed_work (ed@88.131.66.80)
  53. # [11:08] * Quits: ed_work (ed@88.131.66.80) (Ping timeout)
  54. # [11:17] * Joins: ed_work (ed@88.131.66.80)
  55. # [11:18] * Quits: ed_work (ed@88.131.66.80) (Client exited)
  56. # [11:29] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Trigger a 'progress' event once all media data has been downloaded, to ensure that progress bars complete even if the decoding hasn't finished. (whatwg r3619) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0142.html>
  57. # [11:58] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@83.170.95.133) (Ping timeout)
  58. # [12:06] * Joins: Julian_ (chatzilla@217.91.35.233)
  59. # [12:06] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Ping timeout)
  60. # [12:06] * Julian_ is now known as Julian
  61. # [12:11] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  62. # [12:11] * Joins: webben (benh@217.12.14.240)
  63. # [12:12] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Ping timeout)
  64. # [12:12] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233)
  65. # [12:20] * Quits: anne2 (annevk@86.217.141.84) (Ping timeout)
  66. # [12:27] * Joins: ed_work (ed@88.131.66.80)
  67. # [12:27] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169)
  68. # [12:29] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Quit: have a nice week-end)
  69. # [12:29] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Mention that <nav> might be used by ATs. (whatwg r3620) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0143.html>
  70. # [12:46] * Joins: anne2 (annevk@86.217.136.6)
  71. # [12:59] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7278] New: numbers seem ignorant of i18n - is <meter>10,3</meter> taken as 10? requirements for number may expand to include, i.e.: U+002C COMMA for European â„– <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0124.html>
  72. # [12:59] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Remove <bb>. (whatwg r3621) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0144.html>
  73. # [13:17] * Quits: webben (benh@217.12.14.240) (Ping timeout)
  74. # [13:25] * Joins: maddiin (mc@87.185.254.39)
  75. # [13:41] * Quits: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@67.185.151.94) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  76. # [13:49] <jgraham> Oops, I meant to use Spec with *status* markers as the subject line
  77. # [14:03] * Joins: McKinley (Adium@93.97.139.55)
  78. # [14:07] <McKinley> Should I ask a vector graphics question here even though my example is in SVG and not Canvas? It is a pretty general case and not SVG specific. Otherwise, I'll need to find a trigonometry channel :)
  79. # [14:13] <jgraham> McKinley: This isn't really a authoring help channel. Although someone might help you anyway I guess
  80. # [14:13] <Philip> SVG is sort of part of HTML now, so it wouldn't be too heretical to ask such a thing :-)
  81. # [14:13] <McKinley> Thanks, I am trying to use relative 'l' and relative 'a'.
  82. # [14:13] <McKinley> The first path starts at an absolute point of 600,200 and draws an arc to the left: d=" M 600,200 l 0,-150 a 150,150 0 0,0 -106.066017177982,43.9339828220179 z"
  83. # [14:13] <McKinley> So, the next arc will start at 600,200 again.  What is the formula to get my next line?  It obviously is dependant on l 0,-150 in relation to -106.066017177982,43.9339828220179, but I cannot extract a general rule.
  84. # [14:14] <McKinley> This is a pie chart and that first example is a 45 degree slice.
  85. # [14:14] <hsivonen> McKinley: I'm not sure if I understand the question, but the line from the previous Bezier control point to the end point is tangential to the curve at the end point
  86. # [14:15] <hsivonen> I misunderstood the question. sorry
  87. # [14:21] * Joins: webben (benh@217.12.14.240)
  88. # [14:21] <Philip> McKinley: Which "next line" do you mean?
  89. # [14:23] <McKinley> OK, so It starts at 600,200, moves up 150 and moves left 0, right? That leaves us at absolute of 600,50, but I don't want to worry about absoultes anywhere besides the start point. So, from that end point or the line we move down relatively 43.93 and left 106.07. That is the end point of the arc. I need to turn that end point for the first arc into the end point of the line for the next slice. It is relative to up 150, left 0, but what is the general rul
  90. # [14:23] <McKinley> Philip: I am drawing 2 slices of pie at 45 degrees each with a radius of 150. I need to find the relative start point of the second line.
  91. # [14:25] <Philip> Sounds like you could do "(stuff you did before) M 600,200 l -150cos(x),150sin(x) a 150,150 0 0,0 -150cos(y)+150cos(x),150sin(y)-150sin(x) z" maybe
  92. # [14:25] <Philip> where x and y are the angles you're drawing between
  93. # [14:26] <Philip> Um, I might have mixed up the horizontal/vertical numbers a bit
  94. # [14:28] <McKinley> Philip: you meant to have l -150cos(x),150sin(x) and not a y in there?
  95. # [14:30] <Philip> The idea was to M back to the center point, then draw a line out to where the previous arc left off (i.e. based on x, where x is the angle of the previous arc), then do an arc to the end of the new arc (i.e. based on y, where y is the absolute angle of the new arc, minus the position of the previous point because the arc coordinates are relative)
  96. # [14:30] * Joins: taf2 (taf2@71.127.149.10)
  97. # [14:33] * Philip decides that 'x' and 'y' are terrible names to use, and he should have said 'a' and 'b'
  98. # [14:33] <Philip> because now I can't talk about the x axis without getting very confused
  99. # [14:38] <McKinley> Philip: we are talking the same language. I'm a little slow with math though. Let me make sure I am clear on the first slice. So, we start at 600,200 and go up 150 and left 0. From there we arc left 106.07 and down 43.93. The first part I don't understand is how I get at those numbers cos(45) = 106.07 and sin(45) = 106.07 but why are we moving to -106.07 for x and 150 - 106.07 (43.93) (or some other way to arrive at 43.93) for y?
  100. # [14:40] <McKinley> In your example I can't distinguish radius from angle. I'm using 45 degrees until I get a handle on this.
  101. # [14:46] <Philip> The point you're arcing to is 150 units from the center, 45 degrees anticlockwise from the upwards direction, so it has position 150*sin(-45),150*cos(-45)
  102. # [14:46] <Philip> (position relative to the center, that is)
  103. # [14:46] <Philip> which is -106,44 (relative to the center)
  104. # [14:46] <Philip> Wait, no
  105. # [14:47] <Philip> It's -106,106 (relative to the center)
  106. # [14:48] <Philip> which is -106,-44 relative to the point 0,150 (which is where you previously moved to)
  107. # [14:48] <Philip> Um, I've got the vertical axis mixed up again, just negate all the y coordinates :-p
  108. # [14:49] <Philip> and the 'a' command takes coordinates relative to the start point (i.e. relative to 0,150 (or 0,-150 or whatever it is)), which is why you get the -44 (or 44 or whatever it is)
  109. # [14:49] <McKinley> Philip: that is helping. When you said 150*sin(-45),150*cos(-45) should it not be 150*cos(-45),150*sin(-45) to go in x,y order?
  110. # [14:50] <Philip> I assumed angle 0 was meant to be at 0,150
  111. # [14:51] <Philip> so it has to be sin(angle),cos(angle)
  112. # [14:51] <Philip> (because sin(0)=0 etc)
  113. # [14:54] <McKinley> Philip: angle 0 arc is 0,-150 from 200,200 the first slice loooks just like this: \| except at a 45 on not whatever that slash is.
  114. # [14:55] <Philip> Trying to get my axes right this time:
  115. # [14:55] * Quits: taf2 (taf2@71.127.149.10) (Quit: taf2)
  116. # [14:55] <Philip> I think you want 150*sin(angle),-150*cos(angle)
  117. # [14:55] <Philip> so if angle=0 you get 0,-150
  118. # [14:56] <Philip> and if angle=-45 (i.e. anticlockwise in your choice of 'up') you get -106,-106 (relative to the origin) which is -106,44 (relative to 0,-150)
  119. # [14:58] <McKinley> Philip: I'm trying it out. I guess I was missing the negative angle bit.
  120. # [14:58] * Philip is used to the usual mathematical view where +x is right, +y is up, positive angles are anticlockwise
  121. # [14:59] <Philip> but if you interpret -y as being up, then positive angles are clockwise
  122. # [14:59] <Philip> so anticlockwise angles need to be negative
  123. # [14:59] * Philip gets too easily confused by this :-(
  124. # [15:00] <McKinley> Philip: I was toying with how to get the negatives into the mix and I didn't know how. Quadrants are so much easier.
  125. # [15:02] * Joins: DanC (connolly@128.30.52.30)
  126. # [15:03] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.)
  127. # [15:07] * Joins: miketaylr (mtaylor@38.117.156.163)
  128. # [15:31] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Ping timeout)
  129. # [15:32] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233)
  130. # [16:41] * Parts: McKinley (Adium@93.97.139.55)
  131. # [16:58] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Client exited)
  132. # [17:00] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 6774] <mark> element: restrict insertion by other servers <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0125.html>
  133. # [17:26] * Quits: maddiin (mc@87.185.254.39) (Quit: maddiin)
  134. # [17:31] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6606] generic 3rd-party <mark>, Smart Tags, and Activities prevention" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0127.html>
  135. # [17:38] * Quits: webben (benh@217.12.14.240) (Ping timeout)
  136. # [17:47] <pimpbot> planet: Why does HTML 5 not have editable combobox or local menus built in? <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1278431/why-does-html-5-not-have-editable-combobox-or-local-menus-built-in>
  137. # [18:04] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
  138. # [18:09] * Joins: aroben (aroben@71.58.77.15)
  139. # [18:48] * Quits: DanC (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  140. # [18:59] * Joins: gsnedders_ (gsnedders@83.252.194.253)
  141. # [19:44] * Joins: adele (adele@24.7.123.50)
  142. # [20:05] * Joins: DanC (connolly@128.30.52.30)
  143. # [20:33] * Quits: adele (adele@24.7.123.50) (Quit: adele)
  144. # [20:34] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Ping timeout)
  145. # [20:40] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  146. # [20:47] <pimpbot> planet: Is there anything in the works with html5/javascript to prevent opening the same web-app in more than one browser instance? <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1279355/is-there-anything-in-the-works-with-html5-javascript-to-prevent-opening-the-same>
  147. # [21:37] * Joins: takkaria (takkaria@208.75.87.166)
  148. # [21:47] <takkaria> the idea that providing a public audio recording without a transcript is somehow less accessible than no public audio recording or transcript is insane
  149. # [21:52] * Joins: adele (adele@24.7.123.50)
  150. # [21:52] <takkaria> IIRC there is actually a named logical fallacy for arguments which take the form "if we can't do everything, then wemight as well not do anything"
  151. # [21:55] <takkaria> ah, it's the perfectionist fallacy
  152. # [22:22] <shepazu> takkaria: isn't the reverse also true? that providing minutes without a public audio recording is somehow untenable?
  153. # [22:22] <shepazu> that said, I would much rather have audio recordings of meetings myself
  154. # [22:23] <shepazu> especially if they could be transcribed afterwards... scribing is pretty disruptive to at least the scribe
  155. # [22:24] <gsnedders_> There's also very few people who can scribe well
  156. # [22:24] <shepazu> also, I've seen cases where the scribe totally misrepresented or disregarded points a speaker was making (either intentionally or accidentally)
  157. # [22:25] <shepazu> in fact, anne once mal-scribed me during a WAF call, and I didn't notice it until afterwards
  158. # [22:26] <shepazu> so, maybe he's as bad a scribe as I am
  159. # [22:26] * gsnedders_ deliberately tried quite hard to avoid scribing at TPAC last year
  160. # [22:27] <gsnedders_> (Though I did spend the entire first morning of HTML WG fixing fantasai's mistakes as she was scribing, knowing nobody would ever go through it and do so after.)
  161. # [22:27] <shepazu> obviously, well-scribed minutes are better than recordings... they are searchable, take less time to consume, and get rid of lengthy meanderings
  162. # [22:27] <shepazu> fantasai is actually a pretty good scribe
  163. # [22:28] <gsnedders_> Yes, indeed.
  164. # [22:29] <gsnedders_> The vast majority of correcting myself and timeless did was mistakes in her English, and occasional missing words
  165. # [22:29] <plh> the real danger with the audio recording is to change the dynamic of the call itself. I'd be surprise for example if Apple is going to let their employees participate in recorded phone calls, without their PR person next to them.
  166. # [22:29] <shepazu> plh: oh, no question it's a policy challenge
  167. # [22:29] <gsnedders_> What's the diff. between a recorded phone call and a minuted one, though?
  168. # [22:29] <shepazu> I'm just talking about logistics
  169. # [22:29] <plh> we ran already into that issue when we did the audio recording of the TPAC 2007
  170. # [22:30] <Philip> gsnedders_: With minuted ones you can say "I didn't mean/say that, the scribe got it wrong", whereas audio recordings are far harder to deny
  171. # [22:30] <plh> gsnedders, it's easier to deny minutes than a recorded phone call. companies do pay attention to that.
  172. # [22:30] <shepazu> gsnedders: what's the difference between an admission in the police station and a sworn testimony in court? :)
  173. # [22:30] * shepazu has been watching The Wire
  174. # [22:31] <gsnedders_> shepazu: Depends on the laws of the country :)
  175. # [22:31] <Philip> shepazu: The difference is the admission in the police station is made because the police officer is slamming your head into a locker demanding you say you did it
  176. # [22:31] * Philip has been watching Life on Mars
  177. # [22:32] * gsnedders_ ought to watch more of that
  178. # [22:32] <shepazu> Philip: yes, sometimes F2F meetings do get out of hand :)
  179. # [22:35] * Quits: adele (adele@24.7.123.50) (Quit: adele)
  180. # [22:40] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  181. # [22:52] * Joins: webben (benh@217.12.15.52)
  182. # [23:02] * Quits: miketaylr (mtaylor@38.117.156.163) (Quit: miketaylr)
  183. # [23:09] * Quits: aroben (aroben@71.58.77.15) (Connection reset by peer)
  184. # [23:48] <pimpbot> planet: How does the live, real-time typing work in Google Wave? <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/932415/how-does-the-live-real-time-typing-work-in-google-wave>
  185. # Session Close: Sat Aug 15 00:00:01 2009

The end :)