/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-08-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Aug 18 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  5. # [00:20] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Hook progress events into the media elements. (whatwg r3647) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0178.html>
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  9. # [00:50] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7357] New: That ApplicationCache implements EventTarget should be a line in the IDL, not in prose: "ApplicationCache implements EventTarget;". This might apply to other sections too. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0204.html>
  10. # [00:50] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Include progress information when updating the application cache. (whatwg r3648) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0179.html>
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  14. # [01:20] <pimpbot> changes: "hixie: Add a note about it being important that data get deleted promptly. (whatwg r3649)" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0181.html>
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  16. # [01:44] <pimpbot> planet: 2009-08-17 Trunk builds <http://www.squarefree.com/burningedge/2009/08/17/2009-08-17-trunk-builds/>
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  25. # [03:21] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Add some example code in the intro. (whatwg r3650) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0182.html>
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  31. # [04:45] <pimpbot> planet: URI doesn't validate on W3C Markup Validator, identical direct input does <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1291443/uri-doesnt-validate-on-w3c-markup-validator-identical-direct-input-does>
  32. # [05:21] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Ensure that the version number only gets bumped if the transaction commits properly. (whatwg r3651) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0183.html>
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  35. # [06:52] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Add a feature to openDatabase() to make creating the database the first time way easier. (whatwg r3652) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0184.html>
  36. # [07:22] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: A brief introduction to avoiding sql injection. (whatwg r3654) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0186.html> ** hixie: Simplify the intro example based on recent changes. Tweak the way the new creation callback is defined to make it safer in race conditions. Let changeVersion()'s success callback be omitted. (whatwg r3653) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0185.html>
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  39. # [07:52] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Remove the intro placeholder for the user interaction section. We'll add examples to individual sections were needed instead. (whatwg r3656) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0189.html> ** "hixie: Tidy up the database spec. Leave a big scary placeholder for defining the Web SQL dialect. (whatwg r3655)" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0188.html>
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  74. # [12:47] <pimpbot> planet: Which is the future of web development: HTML5 or Silverlight(or other RIA framework)? <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1231484/which-is-the-future-of-web-development-html5-or-silverlightor-other-ria-framewo>
  75. # [12:53] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7362] New: inclusion of the title as a case where the alt may be omitted is problematic <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0205.html>
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  78. # [13:23] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7364] New: The contents attribute is declared as read/write, however the following description only gives information about getting the value of the attribute. Should the contents attribute be marked as readonly? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0206.html>
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  82. # [13:59] <jgraham> FWIW I almost have a toolchain that will allow the W3C ISSUEs to be statically linked from the draft alongside the status annotations
  83. # [14:00] <jgraham> (the only delay is time to finish it off; this evening is a distinct possibility)
  84. # [14:00] <gsnedders> How do you get the ISSUEs? Is there some sort of external interface? Or just scraping?
  85. # [14:00] <jgraham> So if anyone wants to suggest an issue->section(s) mapping that would be helpful
  86. # [14:01] <jgraham> gsnedders: Scraping. The tracker talks about an XML format but it doesn't seem to be documented anywhere and may just be for export (i.e. not live)
  87. # [14:02] <gsnedders> Wow. A W3C thing which doesn't have an RDF serialization of some sort.
  88. # [14:02] <jgraham> If there is an RDF serialization I will continue to scrape
  89. # [14:03] <jgraham> s/is/is only/
  90. # [14:04] <hsivonen> jgraham: how heretical
  91. # [14:04] <gsnedders> Oh, there's an item on the to-do list, requested by timbl, to add RDF
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  98. # [16:28] * Topic is 'Pursuing conformance solutions for the N-body gravitational system known as "the Web", and in general, collectively performing various acts of unparalleled hubris (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/)'
  99. # [16:28] * Set by MikeSmith on Thu Jun 18 07:02:08
  100. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> issue-10?
  101. # [16:46] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-10
  102. # [16:46] <trackbot> ISSUE-10 -- how similar should SMIL and <video> attribute names be? -- RAISED
  103. # [16:46] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/10
  104. # [16:46] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-10 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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  113. # [18:49] <pimpbot> planet: Quote of the day: Jay Sullivan on Fennec <http://standblog.org/blog/post/2009/08/18/Quote-of-the-day%3A-Jay-Sullivan-on-Fennec>
  114. # [19:43] <annevk> that long email still doesn't explain what the use cases are that require role to override native semantics :/
  115. # [19:44] <annevk> not even a single example
  116. # [19:58] <rubys> here's an example: <li role=menuitem>
  117. # [19:59] <webben_> rubys: I'm not sure I'd call that overriding native semantics.
  118. # [19:59] <webben_> rubys: It makes them more specific.
  119. # [20:00] <webben_> rubys: cf. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html#h-10.4
  120. # [20:00] <pimpbot> Title: Lists in HTML documents (at www.w3.org)
  121. # [20:00] <webben_> a menu is a subset of list; a menu item is a subset of list item.
  122. # [20:01] <rubys> I'm not disagreeing, but I am frustrated. Examples aren't what people on the call were asking for. Instead, what was asked for was an agreement that the HTML spec could have strong semantics. We got that. Then the answer was that it wasn't in writing. We got that. Now its that it doesn't contain examples.
  123. # [20:02] <annevk> maybe I wasn't clear
  124. # [20:02] <webben_> rubys: Well what's the action you're expected?
  125. # [20:02] <webben_> *expecting
  126. # [20:02] <annevk> what the email states afaict is that role still always overrides, even on <input type=radio>
  127. # [20:03] <rubys> webben_: somebody to draft up a matrix, even if it is wrong, so that people can say "I agree with that" and "I disagree with that". And on the latter, people can follow up with "why".
  128. # [20:04] <rubys> annevk: so draft up a matrix of what you believe the right answer is :-)
  129. # [20:08] <webben_> annevk: that's how I read it too.
  130. # [20:09] <annevk> rubys, didn't hsivonen do that long ago and pointed it out to them?
  131. # [20:09] <webben_> annevk: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/aria-html5/ ?
  132. # [20:09] <pimpbot> Title: ARIA in HTML5 Integration: Document Conformance (Draft) (at hsivonen.iki.fi)
  133. # [20:10] <annevk> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/aria-html5-bis/
  134. # [20:10] <pimpbot> Title: ARIA in HTML5 Integration: Document Conformance (Draft, Take Two) (at hsivonen.iki.fi)
  135. # [20:11] <rubys> annevk: quite possibly. Is that enough for somebody to begin integrating Aria into the HTML draft?
  136. # [20:11] <webben_> rubys: Can integration into the HTML draft assume changes to the WAI-ARIA draft?
  137. # [20:12] <rubys> yes
  138. # [20:12] * webben_ would have thought so then.
  139. # [20:13] <annevk> rubys, I thought the problem was PFWG not being ok with it
  140. # [20:13] <annevk> rubys, and their email seems to confirm that, without giving the use cases for why it is not ok
  141. # [20:14] <rubys> annevk: if that were the case, then alt would be required and summary would be fully conforming.
  142. # [20:14] <annevk> I don't think it's as simple as that
  143. # [20:14] <webben_> rubys: I'm not so sure about the former. After all, even PFWG allows no alt in some circumstances.
  144. # [20:15] <webben_> *even the Consensus Resolutions
  145. # [20:15] <annevk> WAI-ARIA still has outstanding comments and it could be that people who gave the comments disagree with the response etc.
  146. # [20:17] <rubys> The position that absolutely no forward progress given the direction that has been stated to date is difficult to swallow. And I *know* that there will be second order effects of aria integration, I've seen Maciej and Ian take quite different positions on whether aria-* can affect the validity of missing alt attributes.
  147. # [20:19] <annevk> come to think of it, what they state also does not make much sense; per their email you can turn an <li> into a checkbox using role=chbeckbox or some such but you cannot set the state because <li> has an intrinsic mapping
  148. # [20:19] <annevk> or did I misread something?
  149. # [20:22] <annevk> (I'm not opposed to ARIA being integrated in whatever way as some initial cut. I was just stating what I thought the reason for not doing it was.)
  150. # [20:27] <annevk> (It seems I read that correctly re-reading it. Having said that, mjs seems to think it's ok...)
  151. # [20:29] <webben_> annevk: I'd imagine the resolution to that is that when you override the semantics with role, aria properties/states take precedence.
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  153. # [20:32] <annevk> Yeah, I suppose I'm reading too literally
  154. # [20:33] <annevk> I wonder then what happens with <input type=checkbox role=checkbox checked aria-checked=false>
  155. # [20:33] <annevk> I don't really get the feeling this was thought through, but then I suppose it's only a tentative thingie...
  156. # [20:33] <webben_> annevk: Wouldn't that be mapped to accessiblity APIs as unchecked checkbox?
  157. # [20:34] <annevk> are the semantics overridden?
  158. # [20:34] <Dashiva> Wasn't the deal that for everything non-role, native semantics win?
  159. # [20:34] <webben_> annevk: Yes. By my reading of the proposal, role="checkbox" means that you effectively discard what you know about input for the purpose of accessibility API mapping.
  160. # [20:36] <webben_> What I'd like to know is what happens with <label for="foo">Yes, spam me please</label><input id="foo" type=checkbox role=checkbox checked aria-checked=false>
  161. # [20:37] <webben_> is the special relationship of label to input part of HTML semantics?
  162. # [20:37] <webben_> or should label be treated like aria-label for aria controls
  163. # [20:37] <webben_> e.g. <label for="foo">Yes, spam me please</label><input id="foo" type=checkbox role=checkbox checked aria-checked=false>
  164. # [20:37] <webben_> oops
  165. # [20:38] <webben_> e.g. <label for="foo">Yes, spam me please</label><span id="foo"role=checkbox aria-checked=false></span>
  166. # [20:38] <webben_> is the checkbox labelled or not?
  167. # [20:40] <webben_> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#buildingaccessibleapplications
  168. # [20:40] <pimpbot> Title: Accessible Rich Internet Applications (WAI-ARIA) 1.0 (at www.w3.org)
  169. # [20:40] <webben_> "Some relationships are determined automatically from the host language, like label elements associated with input elements in HTML."
  170. # [20:41] <webben_> I wonder what current implementations do.
  171. # [20:42] <jgraham> Hmm, I read that the same way as annevk i.e. it doesn't really solve the problems that were put forward
  172. # [20:42] <jgraham> But I guess I will let other people worry about it for now
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  174. # [20:48] <annevk> in the spirit of cooperation I put my thoughts in a reply
  175. # [20:48] <annevk> as a set of questions
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  180. # [20:53] <rubys> annevk: excellent. hopefully it doesn't take 72 hours to get answers to yours (and Tab's) questions. Meanwhile IMHO progress should resume on integrating aria into the html5 draft
  181. # [20:55] * webben_ finds the results of looking with the MSAA inspector at Minefield-HTML5-parsing Nightly's treatment of http://pastehtml.com/view/090818LQwsBikd.html interesting
  182. # [20:55] <pimpbot> Title: Mixing host and ARIA semantics (at pastehtml.com)
  183. # [20:56] <webben_> e.g. <p><label for="flob">What's your name?</label><input id="flob" type="checkbox" role="textbox" checked></p>
  184. # [20:56] <webben_> the control has the name derived from the label and its role is "editable text" but it's default action is "check"
  185. # [20:57] <webben_> with <input id="bar" type="checkbox" role="checkbox" checked aria-checked="false"> ... checked wins
  186. # [20:58] <rubys> ...and indeed Michael has already responded to Tab's post..
  187. # [20:58] <annevk> thanks, I'm looking forward to their use cases then
  188. # [20:58] <annevk> might be annoying if they don't work in current UAs
  189. # [20:59] <rubys> s/might be annoying/unlikely to be adopted/
  190. # [21:00] <annevk> which would be annoying if they're good, no?
  191. # [21:00] <annevk> oh well, no need to quibble over this :)
  192. # [21:00] <rubys> :-)
  193. # [21:04] <Dashiva> So if you use role to change from radio to checkbox, the radio's checked is used as the checkbox's checked. But if you change from text to checkbox, there's no checked, so aria-checked applies.
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  195. # [21:45] <jgraham> http://hoppipolla.co.uk/410/spec-full.html#video
  196. # [21:45] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at hoppipolla.co.uk)
  197. # [21:45] <jgraham> With horrible abuse of the existing class names
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  199. # [21:58] <annevk> the links mis /issues/ in them
  200. # [21:58] <annevk> currentTime is considered for removal?
  201. # [21:59] <annevk> hmm
  202. # [21:59] <jgraham> annevk: Oops. Fixing
  203. # [22:01] <Lachy> jgraham, can you use a different style for the status markers to distinguish them from other class=XXX notes?
  204. # [22:02] <Lachy> can't you use a style like that used for the status boxes in the whatwg spec, except slightly modified to fit in the narrower margin?
  205. # [22:05] <jgraham> Lachy: I can ue whatever style people want. Especially if they design the code to make it :)
  206. # [22:06] <jgraham> At the moment I m trying to make it work
  207. # [22:07] <jgraham> annevk: Updated with working links and a few more issues
  208. # [22:10] <annevk> oh cool
  209. # [22:10] <annevk> markp is writing "Dive Into HTML 5"
  210. # [22:11] <annevk> should appear early 2010 by O'Reilly
  211. # [22:11] <jgraham> Awesome. I was hoping someone with a clue would write a HTML5 book soon
  212. # [22:11] <annevk> it's online http://diveintohtml5.org/
  213. # [22:11] <pimpbot> Title: Dive Into HTML 5 (at diveintohtml5.org)
  214. # [22:12] <mjs> so how hard would it be to automate adding of issue markers for open issues of more than a certain age?
  215. # [22:12] <mjs> what metadata would we need?
  216. # [22:13] <jgraham> mjs: At the moment I have a fine that is just ISSUE-ID sectionid*
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  218. # [22:13] <jgraham> Well the first line is the current position of the spec on the Rec. track
  219. # [22:13] <mjs> jgraham: s/fine/file/?
  220. # [22:13] <jgraham> yes
  221. # [22:14] <mjs> jgraham: makes sense to me
  222. # [22:14] <jgraham> That information gets mixed in with the WHATWG annotations file for the actual processing
  223. # [22:14] <mjs> jgraham: it would be nice to make it less manual but if that file goes in CVS it shouldn't be a problem
  224. # [22:15] <mjs> jgraham: do you have a sample copy of the spec with both WHATWG annotations and issue markers?
  225. # [22:15] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  226. # [22:15] <jgraham> mjs: Unless you add the metadata to the issues themselves I don't see how you can do better
  227. # [22:15] <jgraham> mjs: Other than the one I linked above?
  228. # [22:16] <mjs> jgraham: why so you did
  229. # [22:16] * annevk wants to read chapter 1 :)
  230. # [22:16] <mjs> jgraham: I like that format
  231. # [22:17] <mjs> jgraham: it would be nice to get this in the production pipeline and publish a fresh WD so everyone can be happy
  232. # [22:20] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: Leaving)
  233. # [22:20] <jgraham> mjs: Sure. I don't have too much time to wok on it this evening. I have just uploaded the latest spec version that I have and the issue markers file
  234. # [22:20] <mjs> jgraham: where can I find the issue markers file?
  235. # [22:21] <jgraham> http://hoppipolla.co.uk/410/issue_markers
  236. # [22:21] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  237. # [22:21] <jgraham> Now I will disappear for ~30 minutes for some Radio 4 time then I will be back for a bit
  238. # [22:22] <mjs> later!
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The end :)