/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-08-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 19 00:00:00 2009
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  8. # [00:31] <jgraham> Emailed the list. Slightly incoherently. Time for bed.
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  19. # [01:23] <karl> hmmm nobody in Germany http://esw.w3.org/topic/PeopleLocation
  20. # [01:23] <pimpbot> Title: PeopleLocation - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
  21. # [01:23] <karl> ah no.
  22. # [01:23] <karl> http://esw.w3.org/topic/SierkBornemann
  23. # [01:23] <pimpbot> Title: SierkBornemann - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
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  46. # [05:51] <pimpbot> planet: Mozilla Platform Meeting Minutes: 2009-08-18 <http://blog.mozilla.com/meeting-notes/archives/218>
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  52. # [06:52] <pimpbot> planet: experimenting with HTML5 video at the BBC <http://hacks.mozilla.org/2009/08/html5-video-bbc/>
  53. # [07:52] <pimpbot> planet: HTML5/Canvas: Web page preview? <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1297894/html5-canvas-web-page-preview>
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  68. # [10:24] <Stevef> hsivonen: do you think it would be worhtwhile/constructive if i update your http://hsivonen.iki.fi/aria-html5-bis/ to take into account landmarks and changes in the aria spec etc?
  69. # [10:24] <pimpbot> Title: ARIA in HTML5 Integration: Document Conformance (Draft, Take Two) (at hsivonen.iki.fi)
  70. # [10:25] <mjs> Stevef: hsivonen and I were just discussing it on #whatwg
  71. # [10:25] <mjs> well, "just" meaning 2 hours ago
  72. # [10:25] <mjs> Stevef: it seems like it is a little out of date with respect to both ARIA and HTML5
  73. # [10:26] <mjs> Stevef: hsivonen said the Relax NG schema is more current
  74. # [10:26] <Stevef> yes, i have been studying the doc a bit
  75. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> mjs, hsivonen - I can generate human-readable HTML5+ARIA document based on Henri's aria.rnc file, if people want it
  76. # [10:28] <mjs> MikeSmith: I failed to human-read the raw ARIA file
  77. # [10:28] <Stevef> mikesmith: that would be a useful to me
  78. # [10:28] <mjs> Stevef: hsivonen and I noted that templateid and datatype are gone from ARIA for example
  79. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> Stevef: OK, I will try to get it done by tomorrow
  80. # [10:28] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7367] New: The HTMLEmbedElement interface needs to have the name and align DOM attributes as well. Web browsers do too. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0207.html>
  81. # [10:29] <Stevef> yes and aria-channel and some others i think
  82. # [10:30] <Stevef> also in discussion with hsivonen a while back he agreed (as i recall) that there is a use case for the document role and also he has now allowed landmarks
  83. # [10:32] <Stevef> mjs: so i thought it would be worthwhile to produce a modified and upadted doc including suggestions on how landmarks may be supported
  84. # [10:32] <hsivonen> Stevef: yes, I think it would be constructive. see also aria.rnc for what I did with landmarks.
  85. # [10:32] <hsivonen> Stevef: the schema has a bug around <form role=search>, though
  86. # [10:32] <hsivonen> Stevef: the <form role=search> omission is unintentional
  87. # [10:33] <Stevef> hsivonen: great, will work on it
  88. # [10:33] <hsivonen> Stevef: thanks
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  90. # [10:34] <mjs> Stevef: anyway, I think it would be great to make an updated version since hsivonen doesn't have time
  91. # [10:35] <Stevef> mjs: good, there are some parts i am unsure about so will hassle whoever can provide input to do so :-)
  92. # [10:35] <mjs> Stevef: I suspect Hixie will want to rejigger things when he gets around to this himself, but it can't hurt to have a solid proposal on the table
  93. # [10:36] <mjs> the document is also out of date with respect to some HTML5 element updates (like the new hgroup, header changing in meaning, datagrid, datatemplate and event-source being gone...)
  94. # [10:37] <Stevef> mjs:yes i am sure he will, yes will update in respect to html 5 elements as well
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  96. # [10:39] <anne2> sounds good Stevef!
  97. # [10:43] <Stevef> if i create an initial copy can somebody help me to get it up on the w3c cvs? i think it would be useful to have it up there
  98. # [10:44] <Stevef> i have access to the cvs but have not worked out how to do it yet
  99. # [10:45] <mjs> Stevef: you can slap it on the wiki for starters if you want, and I'm sure MikeSmith can help you with the cvs mechanics
  100. # [10:45] <anne2> I can try to help out, though if you're on Windows it might be tricky for me :)
  101. # [10:45] <anne2> though then you could get Tortoise or something I believe and then it should be pretty easy
  102. # [10:46] <Stevef> mjs: ok will do
  103. # [10:47] <Stevef> anne2: yeah i have tortoise, will give it a try, just concerned that i may mess something up unintentionally
  104. # [10:47] <Stevef> what is the url for the repository?
  105. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> Stevef: for the w3c html5 repository?
  106. # [10:49] <Stevef> mikesmith:yes
  107. # [10:49] <anne2> Stevef, http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/ has details
  108. # [10:49] <pimpbot> Title: W3C Public CVS Repository (at dev.w3.org)
  109. # [10:49] <Stevef> thnks
  110. # [10:49] <anne2> HTML5 is in the html5 folder, you should probably create a new folder or some such in there
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  112. # [10:59] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7368] The suggested UI for the mark element does not match the description and the examples. E.g. code highlighting is not something you want to see marked in the scrollbar. Personally I think code highlighting should just be done with strong. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0210.html> ** [Bug 7367] The HTMLEmbedElement interface needs to have the name and align DOM attributes as well. Web browsers do to
  113. # [11:03] <Stevef> mikesmith: i am using tortoise, it provides a dialog for repository browsing and a filed for the address, i put in 'http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5' and i get a message saying "repository moved permanently to 'cvsweb/html5/' please relocate" any ideas?
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  115. # [11:05] <anne2> Stevef, shouldn't you enter the server and repository separately?
  116. # [11:06] <Stevef> anne2: only provides an url field, for example "http://svn.codetalks.org/repos/trunk/tools/ARIA-DTDs" works fine
  117. # [11:06] <anne2> Stevef, per http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/sourceforge/wiki/TortoiseCVS%20instructions you fill in the server and repository separately
  118. # [11:06] <pimpbot> Title: TortoiseCVS instructions – sourceforge (at sourceforge.net)
  119. # [11:06] <anne2> Stevef, this is not subversion
  120. # [11:07] <anne2> Stevef, W3C uses the decades old CVS :)
  121. # [11:07] <Stevef> thnks, as you cna see i know little about this stuff
  122. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> yeah, cvs doesn't know anything about URLs
  123. # [11:08] <MikeSmith> Stevef: isn't there somewhere in the Tortoise UI where it lets you choose the type of version-control system?
  124. # [11:08] <gsnedders> anne2: Instead of the merely decade old SVN? :)
  125. # [11:08] <MikeSmith> if there is, and you set it to "CVS", then it should provide a field for putting in a CVSROOT value
  126. # [11:08] <Stevef> so will download tortoisecvs as trying with tortoisesvn will not work ;-)
  127. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> ah
  128. # [11:12] <hsivonen> it's a bit sad that right when SVN had established itself, it because clear that it's not quite the right thing but hg is
  129. # [11:12] <hsivonen> maybe svn was a necessary step on the road from cvs to hg
  130. # [11:12] <hsivonen> s/because/became/
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  132. # [11:13] <hsivonen> scary typo
  133. # [11:14] <jgraham> In other unrelated news it turns out that virtualenv is wonderful
  134. # [11:14] <mjs> hsivonen: I still can't decide if hg, git, or bzr is the right thing
  135. # [11:14] <mjs> (git is my least favorite of the lot, but seems to have the most appeal to WebKit developers who really want that kind of tool)
  136. # [11:15] * anne2 hasn't used any of the fancy ones yet
  137. # [11:15] <jgraham> mjs: How much does it matter? As far as I can tell they are similar enough to not make much difference
  138. # [11:15] <Dashiva> That's why svn is so great, everyone can agree it's not their favorite decentralized option
  139. # [11:15] <jgraham> Although bzr seems like it might be sqeezed out simply by being third most popular
  140. # [11:15] <mjs> jgraham: they seem to differ greatly in learnability for someone used to cvs/svn
  141. # [11:16] <gsnedders> Monotone ftw!
  142. # [11:16] <mjs> also, people who like git tend to disdain the others for reasons I am not totally clear on
  143. # [11:16] <jgraham> mjs: Could be true. Git seems to be simple in principle and rather hard to learn
  144. # [11:16] <gsnedders> mjs: Probably because Linus says so
  145. # [11:16] <Dashiva> It's in the name, "git"
  146. # [11:17] <gsnedders> Or rather, Linus wrote it, so they think Linus dislikes everything else
  147. # [11:17] <mjs> also I've heard it claimed bzr does not have good perf for large repositories
  148. # [11:17] <jgraham> Although I get the impression it may be somewhat more powerful than hg I haven;t really wanted the extra features yet
  149. # [11:17] <gsnedders> bzr does a lot better now than it did even a year ago
  150. # [11:17] <hsivonen> sorry about starting a discussion on which DVCS is best
  151. # [11:17] <jgraham> :)
  152. # [11:18] <mjs> hsivonen: what's amazing is the total lack of flaming in this discussion
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  155. # [11:28] <gsnedders> mjs: No, your wrong because you do work on an open source project controlled by an evil closed company!
  156. # [11:28] <gsnedders> *you're
  157. # [11:28] <mjs> gsnedders: that's the spirit!
  158. # [11:29] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 6853] restore meta keywords, search engines use them <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0211.html>
  159. # [11:29] <Dashiva> You don't need insults when you're using the word git every two lines
  160. # [11:31] <jgraham> You can't insult people properly when you correct your typos and fail to use CAPS, *asterisks* or /slashes/
  161. # [11:31] <jgraham> In other news, I seem to have lost my editing bit on the tracker
  162. # [11:31] <gsnedders> *No*, that /cannot/ be write WHATEVER you say, because I can't even see your face. You're just an anonymous /coward/.
  163. # [11:32] <anne2> oh please cut the /slashes/
  164. # [11:32] <jgraham> Anyone know if there is a sensible way to add metadata to the issue pages?
  165. # [11:32] <mjs> the /slashes/ remind me of somebody from the early days of the HTML WG
  166. # [11:34] <anne2> jgraham, just add a comment as Julian suggested and scrape the entire page for that string
  167. # [11:34] <anne2> jgraham, simple solutions ftw
  168. # [11:34] <jgraham> anne2: It wasn't clear to me that that was what he was suggesting
  169. # [11:34] <anne2> jgraham, it seemed kind of implied to me with the crazy long identifier
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  171. # [11:35] <anne2> MikeSmith, haven't heard from the pubteam yet, what's the plan? both for HTML5 and XHR
  172. # [11:35] <mjs> I don't think there is a way to add "real" metadata
  173. # [11:35] <jgraham> when people use fancy words like metadata I assume they mean something more than "a specially formatted piece of data"
  174. # [11:36] <jgraham> Anyway I am quite happy to do things this way if people like but I can't do anything whilst I can't edit the tracker issues
  175. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> anne2: I will send the publication request later today, and talk with the webmaster.
  176. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> anne2: as soon as I get a date, you and Hixie can set the dates on the docs
  177. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> anne2: you already sent the publication request for XHR, right?
  178. # [11:38] <anne2> MikeSmith, art did, yes
  179. # [11:38] <anne2> okay
  180. # [11:38] <anne2> MikeSmith, also jgraham needs tracker privs
  181. # [11:38] <anne2> ^^
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  185. # [11:53] <pimpbot> planet: What are the pros and cons of adopting HTML 5 now for a site redesign? <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1298610/what-are-the-pros-and-cons-of-adopting-html-5-now-for-a-site-redesign>
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  187. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> anne2, jgraham - James should now have tracker privs
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  190. # [12:04] <jgraham> MikeSmith: great thanks
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  205. # [13:27] <Stevef> jgraham: great work on the spec with html wg issue markers!
  206. # [13:29] <hsivonen> jgraham: yeah, great stuff. this should be integrated into Hixie's W3C specgen pipeline
  207. # [13:31] * gsnedders guesses it's a case of installing the Anolis version on the server and nagging Hixie to change the URL he uses to call PMS
  208. # [13:31] * gsnedders also guesses he should do some work towards Anolis 1.1
  209. # [13:31] <jgraham> Thanks. I need to upgrade pms.net to understand the extra parameters before I start talking to Hixie about it.
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  232. # [15:13] <Julian> Henri, what's your opinon on the conformance criteria for meta/@name?
  233. # [15:14] <Julian> validator.nu doesn't seem to check (see http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fchrome%2Findex.html)
  234. # [15:14] <pimpbot> Title: Validation results for http://www.google.com/chrome/index.html (at validator.nu)
  235. # [15:23] <hsivonen> rel and meta registries are chronically unimplemented
  236. # [15:23] <hsivonen> the idea is to make V.nu sensitive to the wiki registries one day
  237. # [15:24] <hsivonen> I,ve been postponing it, because it seemed the wiki registries might not be the last word on how to do token registration
  238. # [15:27] <rubys1> It will probably need to be cached, lest you create a DDOS attach on the wiki
  239. # [15:28] <Julian> agreed
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  242. # [15:28] <Julian> I'm just nervous that people do not realize that meta/@name=keywords is not conformant today, as the validator does not complain about it
  243. # [15:29] <Lachy> we should drop the wiki and, if we really need a registry, set up one that can be properly maintained and that provides a more friendly method of data extraction than scraping a wiki, but with a lot less bureaucracy than, e.g, IANA registries
  244. # [15:29] * Joins: taf2 (taf2@38.99.201.242)
  245. # [15:30] <rubys> for the short term, shouldn't the validator be updated to a snapshot of the wiki? I'm not clear how that is materially different than the the validator tracking to a snapshot of the HTML5 spec...
  246. # [15:31] <Julian> Lachy, how bureaucratic an IANA registry is depends on the registration requirements
  247. # [15:31] <Julian> For instance, there are some which are first-come-first-serve
  248. # [15:32] <Julian> Getting the registration requirements right is the hard part, but that's not related to where the registry lieves
  249. # [15:33] <Julian> s/lieves/lives/
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  251. # [15:34] <Lachy> Julian, It doesn't bother me at all where the registry lives. I just don't think a wiki is the right way to manage it
  252. # [15:35] <Julian> Lachy, we're in violent agreement .-)
  253. # [15:42] <Lachy> Julian, that seems like needless indirection to use a link element to refer to a section of a page intended as a description. It'd be better to find some way to mark up the content directly
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  257. # [15:47] <hsivonen> rubys: a snopshot in a Java string array literal would be easy to implement, yeah
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  259. # [15:48] <hsivonen> hmm. it would even be possible to do this in RELAX NG
  260. # [15:48] <hsivonen> although the error messages would suck horribly
  261. # [15:48] <Julian> Lachy, agreed. But link is already there, while your proposal sounds like a new element or attribute. Unless we use RDFa or microdata instead.
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  271. # [18:08] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7369] New: if context font is set to '' or null, the font from the css should be used. In this case, you have no idea what font is being use, so measureText should return a height of the font, as well as the width so that proper displaying can be done. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0212.html>
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  279. # [19:49] <DanC> registries for rel and meta seems like pushing water uphill. The values of those attributes belonged to authors, not to standards-makers, for years (decades?)
  280. # [19:55] <pimpbot> planet: Why Bother With Standards? <http://benjamin.smedbergs.us/blog/2009-08-19/why-bother-with-standards/>
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  288. # [21:36] <Hixie> Julian: please actually reopen bugs if you want them reopened; i won't see them if they're marked as resolved
  289. # [21:36] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  290. # [21:37] <anne2> DanC, it seems that not everyone has that impression reading HTML4
  291. # [21:59] <MikeSmith> issue-11?
  292. # [21:59] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-11
  293. # [21:59] <trackbot> ISSUE-11 -- default character encoding -- RAISED
  294. # [21:59] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/11
  295. # [21:59] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-11 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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  298. # [22:36] <Julian> Hixie, I didn't see an option to do so
  299. # [22:38] <Hixie> MikeSmith, can you make sure julian has the relevant rights on bugzilla?
  300. # [22:38] <jgraham> Right so I made my script pull annotations from the tracker pages but my internet connection is being really crappy
  301. # [22:39] <jgraham> So I won't go through and add all the annotations at the moment
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  303. # [22:52] <MikeSmith> Julian: you should have perms to edit bugs now
  304. # [22:53] <Julian> Ah, I feel so powerful now
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  314. # [23:09] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: publication edits <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0190.html>
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The end :)