/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-08-20 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Aug 20 00:00:00 2009
# Session Ident: #html-wg
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# [00:09] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7373] Need to fix "If a Document or image was returned by the XMLHttpRequest API" now that the document pointer concept is gone. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0214.html> ** [Bug 7373] New: Need to fix "If a Document or image was returned by the XMLHttpRequest API" now that the document pointer concept is gone. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0213.html>
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# [00:40] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7375] New: Incorrect specification for window.postMessage()'s handling of unentangled ports <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0216.html> ** [Bug 7374] New: legend as child of details, figure is unstylable and thus unusable <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0215.html>
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# [02:41] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7373] Need to fix "If a Document or image was returned by the XMLHttpRequest API" now that the document pointer concept is gone. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0219.html> ** [Bug 7374] legend as child of details, figure is unstylable and thus unusable <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0218.html> ** [Bug 7375] Incorrect specification for window.postMessage()'s hand
# [02:41] * Zakim pimpbot, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
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# [04:41] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7374] legend as child of details, figure is unstylable and thus unusable <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0220.html>
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# [05:57] <pimpbot> planet: Jonny Axelsson: Conditional Comments in HTML5? <http://my.opera.com/jax/blog/show.dml/4257206>
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# [07:12] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7377] New: s/DahltrÃ¶m/DahlstrÃ¶m/ <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0221.html>
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# [08:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: awesome. Does the W3C's own pubrules checker violate the caching advice on DTDs?
# [08:42] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7378] New: element name case fixup table is missing two SVG1.2T entries <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0222.html>
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# [09:12] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7378] element name case fixup table is missing two SVG1.2T entries <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0225.html> ** [Bug 7379] HTML5 should reference SVG1.1 as well as SVG1.2T <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0224.html> ** [Bug 7379] New: HTML5 should reference SVG1.1 as well as SVG1.2T <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0223.html>
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# [09:42] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7381] Clarify default encoding wording and add some examples for non-latin locales. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0229.html> ** [Bug 7380] Suggest heuristic detection of UTF-8 <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0228.html> ** [Bug 7381] New: Clarify default encoding wording and add some examples for non-latin locales. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-
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# [10:12] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 6853] restore meta keywords, search engines use them <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0231.html> ** [Bug 7374] legend as child of details, figure is unstylable and thus unusable <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0230.html>
# [10:12] <pimpbot> changes: "mike: added ARIA-integration version at http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/aria/ - based on validator.nu HTML5+ARIA schema" (4 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0194.html>
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# [11:13] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7382] U+000D CARRIAGE RETURN in escaping text spans <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0233.html> ** [Bug 7382] New: U+000D CARRIAGE RETURN in escaping text spans <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0232.html>
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# [11:14] <anne2> MikeSmith, can I get editbugs?
# [11:14] <MikeSmith> anne2: yeah, I thought you had them already
# [11:14] <MikeSmith> will do it right now
# [11:15] <anne2> cheers, there was a few times I thought I'd add the NE keyword but couldn't
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# [11:15] <anne2> never really needed it before
# [11:16] <MikeSmith> OK, done
# [11:43] <pimpbot> changes: "mike: tweaked the metainfo for the ARIA version so that that gets labeled correctly" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0196.html>
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# [13:13] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7384] New: editorial: " (either an HTMLImageElement or an HTMLCanvasElement)" is missing HTMLVideoElement <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0235.html> ** [Bug 7383] New: drawImage(video) and createPattern(video) should say that the aspect-ratio-corrected dimensions must be used <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0234.html>
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# [13:31] <Stevef> zcorpan: is http://simon.html5.org/html5-elements up to date?
# [13:31] <pimpbot> Title: HTML5 Elements and Attributes (at simon.html5.org)
# [13:32] <anne2> last updated August 5
# [13:32] <anne2> should be pretty accurate
# [13:33] <Lachy> yeah, it looks accurate. The last elements dropped from HTML5 were datagrid and bb, and they're both gone from the list
# [13:35] <Stevef> ok thanks
# [13:35] <anne2> more up to date than html5-diff
# [13:35] <anne2> should prolly fix that before pubtime
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# [15:43] * Topic is 'Pursuing conformance solutions for the N-body gravitational system known as "the Web", and in general, collectively performing various acts of unparalleled hubris (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/)'
# [15:43] * Set by MikeSmith on Thu Jun 18 07:02:08
# [15:53] <DanC> re "Does the W3C's own pubrules checker violate the caching advice on DTDs?" quite possibly; the advice is newer than the checker. I suggest reporting the problem to spec-prod@w3.org.
# [15:53] <DanC> I seem to recall that Ian Jacobs said the integration with patent policy database stuff means that the offline checker is no longer supported. :-/
# [16:00] <pimpbot> planet: WebSocket for HTML5 <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1253683/websocket-for-html5>
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# [16:13] <DanC> I haven't read the "... text alternatives ..." thread; anybody care to nominate a few messages that summarize the thread?
# [16:16] <hsivonen> DanC: I suggest http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1015.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1046.html
# [16:16] <pimpbot> Title: Re: feedback requested on WAI CG Consensus Resolutions on Text alternatives in HTML 5 document from Maciej Stachowiak on 2009-08-20 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
# [16:19] <DanC> thanks
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# [17:07] <Julian> DanC, +1 (your comment on "valid URL" in HTML5)
# [17:09] <anne2> might make sense if web addresses was actually worked on :/
# [17:09] <DanC> in what way is it not actually worked on?
# [17:09] <Julian> Yes, but I think these issues are orthogonal
# [17:09] <Julian> using the term "URL" in the spec for things that aren't URLs is just confusing
# [17:09] <anne2> DanC, it's been silent over a month with respect to comments Hixie and I left on public-iri
# [17:10] <anne2> not over, sorry, for a month
# [17:10] <DanC> hmm... not even an acknowledgement of the comments? I know larry is working on that draft; he calls me about it from time to time
# [17:10] <anne2> nada
# [17:11] <DanC> :-/
# [17:11] <anne2> haven't received replies to my web linking or whatever it's called today either, but did get an acknowledgment from mnot
# [17:12] * rubys notes that DanC's email finally made it here, so the above conversation finally makes sense :-)
# [17:12] <Julian> Anne, trying to recall: did you raise anything Hixie didn't later on...?
# [17:14] * DanC has managed to not subscribe to public-iri so far... wishes uri-review and public-iri would have not separated from uri@w3.org
# [17:15] <DanC> anne2, is your month old comment this request for diffs? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-iri/2009Jul/0013.html or are there others from you?
# [17:15] <pimpbot> Title: [draft-duerst-iri-bis-06] differences from HTML5 algorithm from Anne van Kesteren on 2009-07-23 (public-iri@w3.org from July 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
# [17:15] <DanC> oh... I see others
# [17:15] <anne2> there's others
# [17:16] <anne2> Julian, no idea
# [17:16] <hsivonen> Julian, DanC: I think the non-silly thing to do would be making Web Addresses update RFC 3986 so that URL would mean the right thing
# [17:17] * DanC mulls that over
# [17:17] <DanC> I wonder what's the process for updating a full IETF standard.
# [17:18] <DanC> it sorta comes down to a question of whether "../xyz" is an appropriate answer to "hurl me an url?"
# [17:18] <Julian> henri, I think it's a terrible idea.
# [17:18] <Julian> DanC, I don't it ever has been done before.
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# [17:18] <hsivonen> Julian: why is making de jure terminology match actual usage a terrible idea?
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# [17:19] <Julian> Henri, it only matches actual usage in some places.
# [17:19] <hsivonen> I think it's normal usage to call "../xyz" a "relative URL"
# [17:19] <Julian> Please stop assuming that it's all about those four browsers.
# [17:19] <DanC> hsivonen, are you sure people call ".../xyz" an URL? It's not at all clear to me.
# [17:20] <Julian> it used to be called relative URI in RFC 2396.
# [17:20] <Julian> But a "relative URI" is not a "URI2
# [17:20] * jgraham thought that other HTTP clients changed their behaviour to match browsers but maybe that was some other case
# [17:20] <DanC> let's see... wikipedia has googlemark on "url" ...
# [17:20] <Julian> Thus RFC 3986 changed to call it a relative reference
# [17:20] <Julian> you can't but IRIs nor whitespace on the wire in HTTP
# [17:21] <Julian> s/but/put/
# [17:21] <hsivonen> Julian: fwiw, I don't mean it's about the four browsers. I mean it's about all the people out there who think they know what a URL is.
# [17:21] <Julian> (IRIs containing non-ASCII characters)
# [17:21] <anne2> Julian, how does terminology usage have anything to do with "those four browsers"?
# [17:22] <DanC> looks like the "experts" have had a little too much influence on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Resource_Locator . that article is full of standards-speak, so doesn't really help
# [17:22] <pimpbot> Title: Uniform Resource Locator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)
# [17:22] <hsivonen> fwiw, Gecko calls it nsIURI
# [17:22] <Julian> do you really think there'll be *less* confusion by changing what URL/URI means?
# [17:22] <hsivonen> which is neither URL nor IRI
# [17:22] <DanC> agreed, "it's about all the people out there who think they know what a URL is."
# [17:22] <anne2> DanC, it does mention "In popular usage and in many technical documents and verbal discussions it is often incorrectly used as a synonym for URI."
# [17:22] <anne2> which would supports hsivonen's point
# [17:23] <DanC> huh? it would support my point, which is that "../xyz" is not a URL
# [17:23] <Julian> URL vs URI isn't significant
# [17:23] <hsivonen> people who can read a "URL" on the side of a bus and type it to an address bar and people who author links with "URLs" far outnumber RFC lawyers
# [17:23] <Julian> URI vs IRI vs "Web Address" is
# [17:23] <Julian> URI and URL share the same syntax
# [17:24] <Julian> but those people do not read the HTML spec
# [17:24] <anne2> DanC, ah, I was assuming that Wikipedia would not be that smart, but maybe it is :)
# [17:24] <hsivonen> you need to munge a URL into a URI in order to hand it off to an ASCII-only protocol
# [17:24] <anne2> DanC, I have never really encountered anyone other than a few standards people that knew that URI only includes absolute URIs
# [17:25] <DanC> I suppose it depends on context, somewhat. If you ask them "what goes in an href attribute?" they'd say sure, "../xyz" is fine, but...
# [17:25] <DanC> if they said "hurl me an url" and you replied with "../xyz", they'd look at you funny
# [17:26] <hsivonen> you put an "absolute URL" in the address bar. you can put a "relative URL" in href
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# [17:28] <DanC> meanwhile, there's the question of whether the HTML 5 spec is really meant for joe-on-the-street. It's a standards document, after all, and it's aimed at the same audience as the HTTP and URI specs, so it ought to be reasonably consistent with them.
# [17:28] <hsivonen> it's also aimed at people who write HTML tutorials
# [17:29] <hsivonen> and at enlightened designers
# [17:29] <hsivonen> it's not just for HTTP hackers
# [17:29] <hsivonen> I'd expect the concept to remain visible even if you hide implementation-specific stuff
# [17:30] <anne2> if we could call it IRI I suppose that'd be fine too
# [17:30] <anne2> but I suspect it'd have to be something silly like IRI reference
# [17:30] <hsivonen> I think "Web address" is better than IRI
# [17:30] <hsivonen> URI, IRI and LEIRI are all RFC lawyer terms
# [17:32] <Julian> I still have't given up on making LEIRIs and Web Addresses the same thing. But maybe that's just me.
# [17:32] * gsnedders notes a far greater proportion of web developers read the HTML spec than ever will the HTTP or URI or IRI specs
# [17:33] <hsivonen> trying to kill a wildly successful term like URL (as opposed to updating the spec to match the success)
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# [17:33] <hsivonen> is on terminology level similar to trying to kill a wildly successful format like HTML
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# [17:33] <hsivonen> on the technology level instead of updating it
# [17:33] <DanC> I tried to make that point at the time the URI spec was in development, hsivonen (i.e. "let's just use URL, rather than URI") but I lost.
# [17:33] <anne2> Julian, yeah, makes not too much sense that they're different
# [17:34] <anne2> Julian, especially if the encoding flag is UTF-8 unless explicitly stated otherwise
# [17:34] <DanC> updating the standard definition of URL has some merit; I hope you'll float the idea in mail, hsivonen . it's more work than I want to contemplate, so I'm not interested to advocate it
# [17:34] <Julian> DanC, I don't think we're discussing URL vs URI
# [17:35] <DanC> we're discussing whether "../xyz" is a URL
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# [17:35] <hsivonen> Julian: I want references to LEIRIs to be replaced with references to Web addresses / URLs, too
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# [17:36] <DanC> both wikipedia and the java API docs are inconsistent. They say "every URL starts with scheme:" and then they say "there are also relative URLs"
# [17:36] <DanC> "LEIRI" is... well... I find it hard to take seriously.
# [17:36] <Julian> The Java API docs are written in terms of RFC2396 (or earlier) and should be fixed.
# [17:37] <DanC> 3rd google hit for "URL" says they all start with scheme: http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/U/URL.html
# [17:37] <pimpbot> Title: What is URL? - A Word Definition From the Webopedia Computer Dictionary (at www.webopedia.com)
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# [17:38] * DanC tries searching for "url html tutorial"
# [17:39] <DanC> w3schools doesn't take a hard line either way... http://www.w3schools.com/html/html_url.asp it uses a different term for relative addresses, though
# [17:39] <pimpbot> Title: HTML URL's (at www.w3schools.com)
# [17:40] <Julian> DanC, I think what's being discussed is whether things like "http://example.com/foo/bar/ä ö ü ß" are URLs or URIs. They are not, and never will be.
# [17:40] <DanC> this one clearly says an URL is whatever goes in an href http://www.htmlcodetutorial.com/quicklist.html
# [17:40] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Quick List - HTML Code Tutorial (at www.htmlcodetutorial.com)
# [17:41] <DanC> well, that too, Julian. "never will be"? I don't see how we can be certain of that.
# [17:42] <Julian> DanC, it would break lots of specs that rely on certain qualities of URIs
# [17:42] <Julian> Such as being ASCII only, and not containing whitespace
# [17:42] <DanC> yes, there would be a cost to updating all the relevant specs
# [17:43] <Julian> needless additional confusion
# [17:43] <anne2> I don't think anybody was suggesting to change the definition of URI
# [17:43] <anne2> unless it's broken somehow I suppose
# [17:44] <Julian> I totally agree that people are confused today, but changing what URI or URL means IMHO will make things worse not better
# [17:44] <Julian> So what's the proposal then?
# [17:44] <DanC> this tutorial uses URLs only for things that start with scheme: http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/tut/tut8a.html http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/tut/tut8b.html
# [17:44] <pimpbot> Title: 8a. Linking to Local Files (at www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu)
# [17:44] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7386] New: SharedWorkerGlobalScope <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0236.html>
# [17:46] <DanC> I understood hsivonen's proposal to be: in the new IRI spec, redefine URL to be the same as what it currently calls "web address"
# [17:46] <anne2> Julian, to have URL mean the thing it means in HTML5
# [17:46] <anne2> DanC, me too
# [17:47] <Julian> Anne, URL or valid URL?
# [17:48] <anne2> the latter is a subset, so the former
# [17:49] <Julian> so make it a superset of IRI, but leave URI alone?
# [17:50] <anne2> yes
# [17:50] <Julian> I don#t think that's a good idea.
# [17:51] <anne2> you already said that
# [17:52] <Julian> but last time I said it I was thinking you were proposing something else :-)
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# [17:54] <annevk> fair enough
# [17:54] <annevk> I still think it's a great idea
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# [17:56] * rubys predicts that Roy won't agree with Anne.
# [17:57] <DanC> updating the defintion of URL has some merit, but it's a ton of work to do all the relevant IETF coordination. that's why Roy has said it'll never happen (or words to that effect)
# [17:58] <DanC> standards docs aren't as malleable as street-speak
# [17:58] * Joins: Stevef (chatzilla@82.44.69.8)
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# [17:58] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
# [17:58] <DanC> there's an argument that the IETF did an open call for participation and standardized the term, and now the community is obliged to stick with it.
# [17:59] <annevk> seems Roy doesn't really like what we do anyway so I wouldn't be surprised
# [17:59] * Joins: kliehm (kliehm@80.187.104.227)
# [18:00] <DanC> you could give him the benefit of the doubt that there's more than "I don't like what you do" behind his positions, annevk
# [18:00] <annevk> his style of flaming and not elaborating much might have put me off a little
# [18:01] <DanC> yes, there is that
# [18:02] <Dashiva> DanC: There's also the argument that most of the people using URL haven't even heard of the IETF :)
# [18:02] <DanC> but they depend on the proper working of lots of IETF products
# [18:02] <Dashiva> Working is independent from naming, though
# [18:02] <kliehm> trackbot, status?
# [18:02] * trackbot knows about the following 24 users: Lachlan, Matthew, Larry, Michael(tm), Doug, Gregory, Julian, Laura, Shawn, Henri, Maciej, James, Adrian, Joshue, Richard, Ben, Chris, Sam, Ian, Cynthia, Dan, David, Shelley, Steve
# [18:03] <DanC> not entirely... confusing engineers working with both HTML and HTTP is a recipe for bugs
# [18:03] * Joins: cyns (4c15095d@128.30.52.43)
# [18:03] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
# [18:03] <Zakim> +Sam
# [18:03] * annevk will be five minutes late
# [18:03] * annevk needs a bit of food
# [18:04] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
# [18:04] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
# [18:04] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [18:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
# [18:04] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
# [18:04] <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
# [18:04] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
# [18:04] <trackbot> Date: 20 August 2009
# [18:04] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
# [18:04] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
# [18:04] <Zakim> +Mike
# [18:04] <kliehm> present+ Martin_Kliehm
# [18:05] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-work
# [18:05] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
# [18:05] <Zakim> +DanC
# [18:05] <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
# [18:05] <Zakim> +??P25
# [18:05] * Quits: kliehm (kliehm@80.187.104.227) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://rooms.derflash.de)
# [18:05] <rubys> agenda+ scribe
# [18:05] * Zakim notes agendum 6 added
# [18:05] <rubys> agenda?
# [18:05] * Zakim sees 2 items remaining on the agenda:
# [18:05] * Zakim 5. poll [from rubys]
# [18:05] * Zakim 6. scribe [from rubys]
# [18:05] <DanC> Zakim, clear agenda
# [18:05] <Zakim> agenda cleared
# [18:05] <rubys> agenda+ scribe
# [18:05] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
# [18:05] * Quits: webben (benh@217.12.14.240) (Ping timeout)
# [18:05] <rubys> agenda+ open / pending review action items
# [18:05] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
# [18:05] <Zakim> +??P27
# [18:06] <rubys> agenda+ raised (and nominated for closure) / Maciej Stachowiak
# [18:06] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
# [18:06] <DanC> Zakim, ??P27 is SteveF
# [18:06] <Zakim> +SteveF; got it
# [18:06] <Zakim> +Matt
# [18:06] <rubys> agenda+ creation of an HTML Accessibility Task Force / Michael Cooper
# [18:06] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
# [18:06] <DanC> Zakim, ??P25 is JoeW
# [18:06] <Zakim> +JoeW; got it
# [18:06] <annevk> Zakim, passcode?
# [18:06] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), annevk
# [18:06] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30)
# [18:06] * DanC Zakim, who has the squeaky bird?
# [18:06] * Zakim sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'who'
# [18:06] <Zakim> +Laura
# [18:06] * MichaelC zakim, call cooper-mit
# [18:06] * Zakim ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
# [18:06] <Zakim> +Cooper
# [18:06] * Joins: rob (rob@12.155.161.164)
# [18:06] <Zakim> +??P19
# [18:07] <annevk> Zakim, ??P19 is me
# [18:07] <Zakim> +annevk; got it
# [18:07] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
# [18:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see Sam, Mike, DanC, Cynthia_Shelly, JoeW, SteveF, Matt, Laura, Cooper, annevk
# [18:07] <Zakim> +Julian
# [18:07] <MikeSmith> Zakim, Mike is me
# [18:07] <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
# [18:07] * DanC encourages Sam to welcome callers a bit more vocally ;-)
# [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.510.495.aaaa
# [18:08] <DanC> Zakim, aaaa is RobinW
# [18:08] <Zakim> +RobinW; got it
# [18:08] * DanC wonders if I got that right
# [18:08] <rubys> zakim, pick a scribe
# [18:08] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Sam
# [18:08] <rubys> zakim, pick a scribe
# [18:08] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Cynthia_Shelly
# [18:09] <Zakim> +Radhika_Roy
# [18:09] <Zakim> + +5454558aabb
# [18:09] <cyns> scribe: cyns
# [18:09] <DanC> Zakim, aabb is Shawn
# [18:09] <Zakim> +Shawn; got it
# [18:09] <rubys> Topic: Issue-56/Action-125 urls-webarch / Julian Reschke
# [18:10] <DanC> action-125?
# [18:10] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-125
# [18:10] <trackbot> ACTION-125 -- Julian Reschke to coordinate with LMM and DanC to get an Internet Draft that addresses some HTML 5 href issues -- due 2009-08-13 -- PENDINGREVIEW
# [18:10] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/125
# [18:10] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-125 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [18:10] <MikeSmith> scribenick: cyns
# [18:10] <cyns> julian: it think that can be closed. action is done
# [18:10] <Zakim> +Adrian
# [18:10] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:10] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [18:10] <annevk> Zakim, cynthia_shelly is cyns
# [18:10] <Zakim> +cyns; got it
# [18:11] <cyns> connelly: I have made a proposal.
# [18:11] <rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1052.html
# [18:11] <pimpbot> Title: change "URL" to "web address" throughout the HTML 5 spec (Issue-56 urls-webarch) from Dan Connolly on 2009-08-20 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
# [18:11] <rob> Zakim, 1.510.495.aaaa is me
# [18:11] <Zakim> sorry, rob, I do not recognize a party named '1.510.495.aaaa'
# [18:11] <rubys> zakim, aaaa is rob
# [18:11] <Zakim> sorry, rubys, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
# [18:11] <cyns> sam: how do we want to procede
# [18:12] <cyns> connelly: editorial suggestion. need to hear from the editor. Someone can take an action to ping him. also argument against, but not on list.
# [18:12] <cyns> sam: you could do a bug report. Ian responds to thme.
# [18:12] <cyns> connelly: I sent to list, per charter.
# [18:13] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
# [18:13] <cyns> sam: editor may not take suggestion. Does not close the issue. I will get with Ian offline, leave status as is.
# [18:13] <DanC> close action-125
# [18:13] <cyns> close julian's action.
# [18:13] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-125.
# [18:13] <trackbot> ACTION-125 Coordinate with LMM and DanC to get an Internet Draft that addresses some HTML 5 href issues closed
# [18:13] <MikeSmith> Zakim, aaaa is really RobEnnals
# [18:13] <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
# [18:13] <MikeSmith> Zakim, RobinW is really RobEnnals
# [18:13] <Zakim> +RobEnnals; got it
# [18:14] <rubys> Topic: Issue-4/Action-108 html-versioning / Larry Masinter
# [18:14] <cyns> sam: Larry is not on the call. I will get with him to get a new date.
# [18:14] <rubys> Topic: Issue-13/Action-86 handling-http-401-status / Julian Reschke
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# [18:14] * Joins: webben (benh@217.12.14.241)
# [18:14] <cyns> sam: Julian, are you ok with closing?
# [18:14] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7387] New: small element should have same content model as a, ins, del <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0237.html>
# [18:15] <MikeSmith> kemp
# [18:15] <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1053.html
# [18:15] <pimpbot> Title: Re: ISSUE-13: suggest closing from John Kemp on 2009-08-20 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
# [18:15] <cyns> Julian: I just got mail from John Kent, he was against closing. haven't read it yet. want to leave open a few days.
# [18:15] <rubys> s/Kent/Kemp/
# [18:16] * shepazu Zakim, call shepazu
# [18:16] * Zakim ok, shepazu; the call is being made
# [18:16] <Zakim> +Shepazu
# [18:16] <rubys> Topic: Issue-32/Action-128 table-summary / Cynthia Shelly
# [18:16] <rubys> http://dev.w3.org/html5/pf-summary/spec.html
# [18:16] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at dev.w3.org)
# [18:16] <DanC> (folks that want drafts discussed in telcons will please mail pointers a day or 2 in advance)
# [18:17] <rubys> cyns: I created a draft which puts back the summary text from HTML 4, and to add examples from Matt May's book, and to add some suggestions
# [18:18] <rubys> cyns: I think this is a reasonable compromise, but I'm certain that there are others that don't, but I would appreciate feedback.
# [18:18] <rubys> joe: I think it is a good compromise
# [18:18] <rubys> danc: people will want to know why
# [18:19] * Joins: kliehm (kliehm@80.187.104.227)
# [18:19] <rubys> action: cynthia to send draft to the list, due in three weeks
# [18:19] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:19] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [18:19] <trackbot> Created ACTION-136 - Send draft to the list, due in three weeks [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2009-08-27].
# [18:20] <DanC> ACTION-136: draft regarding summary, in particular
# [18:20] * trackbot attempting to add comment notes to ACTION-136.
# [18:20] <trackbot> ACTION-136 Send draft to the list, due in three weeks notes added
# [18:21] <rubys> note: action 136 is to be assigned to Matt May
# [18:21] <rubys> Topic: Issue-35/Action-114 aria-processing / Cynthia Shelly
# [18:21] * DanC fixed 136->Matt May
# [18:22] <kliehm> present+ Martin_Kliehm
# [18:22] <cyns> Steve Faulkner: taking it to PF for further discussion on Monday.
# [18:22] <Zakim> -JoeW
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# [18:22] <rubys> action: stevenf to produce a matrix based on Henri's work, due: 2 weeks
# [18:22] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:22] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - stevenf
# [18:22] * RRSAgent records action 3
# [18:22] <cyns> Steve Faulkner: action is to produce a matrix based (loosely) on what Henri has done.
# [18:23] <rubys> Topic: Issue-54/Action-103 doctype-legacy-compat / Julian Reschke
# [18:23] <DanC> action-103?
# [18:23] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-103
# [18:23] <trackbot> ACTION-103 -- Julian Reschke to register about: URI scheme -- due 2009-08-20 -- OPEN
# [18:23] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/103
# [18:23] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-103 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [18:23] <cyns> Julian: pinged [name]. He published a new draft for URI scheme a few days ago. On track to be finished.
# [18:24] <cyns> there are no technical changes, correct? No test cases you expect to change from pass to fail?
# [18:24] <rubys> s/[name]/J. Holsten/
# [18:24] <cyns> Julian: no, but there is a reference to the HTML 5 spec.
# [18:24] <cyns> connelly: maybe we should make this 'pending review' since we're waiting for people?
# [18:25] <cyns> sam: ok with that with new date.
# [18:25] <cyns> Julian: 2 weeks.
# [18:25] <DanC> s/connelly/connolly/g
# [18:26] <rubys> Topic: Issue-74/Action-133 canvas-accessibility / Richard Schwerdtfeger
# [18:26] <cyns> (sorry dan)
# [18:26] <DanC> np
# [18:26] <DanC> just use DanC if it's easier
# [18:26] <Stevef> cyns:meeting set up for friday, tomorrow
# [18:26] <Stevef> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AddedElementCanvas#head-a3a47c8de8c3207a1a646382ae8e4e131768e6dd
# [18:26] <pimpbot> Title: HTML/AddedElementCanvas - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
# [18:26] <Stevef> Expanding on the DOM concept with ARIA and support for Platform Accessibility APIs
# [18:26] <cyns> richard is actively seeking volunteers
# [18:26] <rubys> Topic: Issue-41/Action-97 decentralized-extensibility / Chris Wilson
# [18:27] <Laura> Canvas on PF HTML Caucus Agenda, 14:00Z Friday 21 August http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2009Aug/0180.html
# [18:27] <pimpbot> Title: PF HTML Caucus Agenda, 14:00Z Friday 21 August from Janina Sajka on 2009-08-19 (wai-xtech@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
# [18:27] <cyns> Sam: agreed on current status. any comments?
# [18:27] <rubys> next agendum
# [18:27] * Zakim thinks agendum 1. "scribe" taken up [from rubys]
# [18:27] <rubys> next agendum
# [18:27] * Zakim thinks agendum 1 was just opened
# [18:27] <cyns> Adrian: trying to put together a proposal, looking at compat with what we have in IE.
# [18:27] <DanC> Zakim, close item 1
# [18:27] <Zakim> agendum 1, scribe, closed
# [18:27] <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
# [18:27] <Zakim> 2. open / pending review action items [from rubys]
# [18:28] <rubys> next agendum
# [18:28] * Zakim thinks agendum 2. "open / pending review action items" taken up [from rubys]
# [18:28] <DanC> Zakim, close item 2
# [18:28] <Zakim> agendum 2, open / pending review action items, closed
# [18:28] <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
# [18:28] <Zakim> 3. raised (and nominated for closure) / Maciej Stachowiak [from rubys]
# [18:28] <DanC> Zakim, next item
# [18:28] <Zakim> agendum 3. "raised (and nominated for closure) / Maciej Stachowiak" taken up [from rubys]
# [18:28] <cyns> Sam: list of issues proposed for closure.
# [18:28] <cyns> Sam: I heard 10, 11, 13 to be left open?
# [18:29] <cyns> Sam: 10 is HTML 5 integration, 11 is default encoding, 13 is HB 401 status
# [18:30] <cyns> Sean: Want to keep open 9, haven't looked at 6
# [18:30] <DanC> (do we have actions for 10, 11, and 13? that would be handy, though I suppose not critical)
# [18:30] <cyns> Doug: 6 is about syntax?
# [18:30] <cyns> Dan: 6 is about whether we do video and audio at all
# [18:30] <cyns> Doug: close it then
# [18:30] <mjs> Julian said he is ok with closing 13
# [18:30] <annevk> ?ISSUE-10
# [18:30] <DanC> (I don't see "integration" in issue 10; that seems to be about syntax)
# [18:30] <DanC> issue-10?
# [18:30] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-10
# [18:30] <trackbot> ISSUE-10 -- how similar should SMIL and <video> attribute names be? -- OPEN
# [18:30] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/10
# [18:30] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-10 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [18:31] <Julian> mjs, there's new mail from John Kemp we need to digest
# [18:31] * annevk thanks DanC; I was looking for a link :)
# [18:31] <cyns> Doug: 10 is about SMIL, Dick Bolterman wants to follow up on 9
# [18:31] <mjs> ISSUE-10, the action is for the SMIL WG to review
# [18:31] * annevk who is talking?
# [18:31] * DanC doesn't recognize this speaker
# [18:31] <cyns> Sean: object supports param, which SMIL needs, video and audio don't have
# [18:32] <cyns> why does SMIL need param
# [18:32] <mjs> Julian: do you understand what his comments enough to propose a spec change?
# [18:32] <mjs> er, sorry, s/:/,/
# [18:33] <Julian> mjs, the mail just came in, so I didn't have time to process it; will do later today
# [18:33] <cyns> Sean: SMIL has extensibility like object, needed for codecs, different codecs need different attributes
# [18:33] <cyns> [speaker] the way we expect it to work is that the browser does the mapping.
# [18:34] <cyns> Sean: API isn't robust enough. For example, no way to switch captions on and off
# [18:34] <cyns> [speaker] right, browser should do that
# [18:34] <DanC> s/[speaker]/annevk/
# [18:34] <rubys> s/[speaker]/anne/g
# [18:34] <shepazu> s/[speaker]/anne:/
# [18:34] <cyns> Sean: If you want author to be able to do it from script, need param
# [18:35] <MikeSmith> this sounds like a discussion that also needs to get documented on the list
# [18:35] <cyns> Sean: another example would be multiple audio streams
# [18:35] <cyns> Anne: API is intentionallly small. Send to list for discussion?
# [18:35] <cyns> Sean: ok
# [18:35] <cyns> Doug: is this issue 10?
# [18:36] <MikeSmith> Zakim, Shawn is really SeanHayes
# [18:36] <Zakim> +SeanHayes; got it
# [18:36] * Quits: webben (benh@217.12.14.241) (Ping timeout)
# [18:36] <cyns> Sean: keep 6, 9 and 10 open until some SMIL people are on the call.
# [18:36] <MikeSmith> action-135?
# [18:36] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-135
# [18:36] <trackbot> ACTION-135 -- Michael(tm) Smith to seek review from Dick Bulterman -- due 2009-08-27 -- OPEN
# [18:36] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/135
# [18:36] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-135 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [18:37] <cyns> Doug: bring Dave Bolterman, SMIL chair, onto call after he's back from vacation.
# [18:37] <mjs> SMIL people didn't object to closing 6 or 9
# [18:37] <cyns> Sean: yes, he'd know how it's supposed to work.
# [18:37] <mjs> they only asked to keep 10 open pending their review
# [18:37] <shepazu> s/Dave Bolterman/Dick Bulterman/
# [18:38] <cyns> Connolly: agree about 6 but maybe not 9
# [18:38] <DanC> I agree about 6, mjs, but not so sure about 9... heard some sentiment for keeping it open too
# [18:38] * shepazu thinks...
# [18:38] * Joins: webben (benh@217.12.14.240)
# [18:38] <mjs> DanC, I don't see any replies to my email about issue-9
# [18:38] <shepazu> ISSUE-37 - html-svg-mathml
# [18:38] <mjs> DanC, did I miss something?
# [18:38] <DanC> yes, you missed discussion in this telcon
# [18:39] <rubys> people have asked to keep 6, 9, 11, 13, 37 open
# [18:39] <rubys> 10 too
# [18:39] <annevk> maybe we should not bothering closing issues
# [18:39] <annevk> seems to just cause a bunch of overhead...
# [18:39] <shepazu> SVG WG would like to keep open ISSUE-37 - html-svg-mathml, since there are open questions beyond just parsing
# [18:39] <Zakim> +Rich
# [18:39] <mjs> could you ask the people who object to closing issue-6 or issue-9 to send email please, or do so on their behalf?
# [18:40] <DanC> 6?
# [18:40] * Joins: richardschwerdtfe (RichS@99.39.114.91)
# [18:40] <annevk> issue-6?
# [18:40] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-6
# [18:40] <trackbot> ISSUE-6 -- Pros and cons of keeping video and audio in the scope of the HTML working group -- RAISED
# [18:40] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/6
# [18:40] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-6 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [18:40] <mjs> I saw the objections on 10, 11, 13, and 37
# [18:41] <cyns> Dan: why 6?
# [18:41] <cyns> Sean: title is about whether to do it at all, but there's a bunch of stuff about whether to use object, which is still open.
# [18:41] <cyns> Doug: rename?
# [18:41] <cyns> Sam: make new one?
# [18:42] <cyns> Doug: has lots of links and stuff, difficult to reproduce. I'll remane it.
# [18:42] <cyns> Anne: are you suggesting using object instead?
# [18:42] <mjs> is anyone going to make a concrete proposal to remove <video> and <audio> in favor of <object>?
# [18:42] <cyns> Sean: use same data model as object
# [18:42] <annevk> mjs, are you dialed in?
# [18:42] <mjs> no
# [18:43] <cyns> Doug: remane to issue: content model of video?
# [18:43] <mjs> I can dial in if necessary
# [18:43] <kliehm> s/remane/rename/
# [18:43] <annevk> mjs, what I'm hearing is changing the content model of <video> and <audio> to <object> so that it has <param> and can do SMIL like stuff
# [18:43] <annevk> mjs, apparently in SMIL you have to do some kind of per-codec API
# [18:43] <mjs> annevk, that would seem to be in scope of issue-10
# [18:43] <cyns> Dan: that looses the orig issue
# [18:44] <mjs> annevk, issue-6 is about whether to have <video>/<audio> at all
# [18:44] <cyns> Sam: create new issue for content model (missing params) with link to 6
# [18:44] <annevk> mjs, I just mentioned your comments
# [18:44] <cyns> Anne: is content model covered under 10?
# [18:44] <cyns> Dan: yes, like that idea
# [18:44] <cyns> Sam: close 6?
# [18:45] <DanC> +1 close 6, track object stuff under 10
# [18:45] <cyns> Sean: no objection, as long as we capture under 10
# [18:45] <DanC> issue-10: note discussion 20 Aug of <object param> interaction
# [18:45] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-10.
# [18:45] <trackbot> ISSUE-10 how similar should SMIL and <video> attribute names be? notes added
# [18:45] <annevk> mjs, yay, one issue less
# [18:45] <rubys> keep 9, 10, 11, 13, 37 open?
# [18:45] <cyns> Sam: close all other issues?
# [18:46] <cyns> Sam: no objections. close all other issues from Maceij's list.
# [18:46] <rubys> next agendum
# [18:46] * Zakim thinks agendum 4. "creation of an HTML Accessibility Task Force / Michael Cooper" taken up [from rubys]
# [18:46] <cyns> Sam: if you find an error, bring it up on the list.
# [18:46] <cyns> Sam: Michael Cooper on the call?
# [18:46] <mjs> (I'd still like to hear the actual objection on issue-9 at some point)
# [18:46] <mjs> (yay less issues)
# [18:46] <MichaelC> HTML task force: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html-task-force
# [18:46] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Accessibility Task Force (at www.w3.org)
# [18:46] <cyns> Michael: main concern last week was setting up yet another channel for communication.
# [18:47] <annevk> mjs, I guess 9/10 is the same thing
# [18:47] <rubys> annevk: i thought 9 was captions, and 10 was params
# [18:47] <cyns> Michael: goal to have a place for focused discussion, joint place for discussion.
# [18:47] <mjs> 9 isn't about captions, at least that wasn't the original intent
# [18:47] <annevk> rubys, 9 says it is about synchronization
# [18:47] <mjs> 9 is about syncing 2 videos so they play in lockstep, and stuff like that
# [18:47] <cyns> Michale: use HTML list with [a11y] prefix in subject
# [18:48] <DanC> close ISSUE-5: button-type-radio ISSUE-12: test-case-file-names ISSUE-16: offline-applications-sql ISSUE-17: media-queries-tab-preprocessing ISSUE-20: table-headers ISSUE-26: accessibility/usability of HTML5 and W3C default stylesheets ISSUE-28: http-mime-override ISSUE-34: commonality ISSUE-36 - client-side-storage-sql ISSUE-38 - style-attr-syntax ISSUE-43: client-side image maps <- I'm pretty sure that's (mjs's suggestions - 9, 10, 11, 13, 37)
# [18:48] <mjs> that was why cwilso originally raised it
# [18:48] <cyns> Michael: on IRC use [???]
# [18:48] <MichaelC> s/[???]/#pf-html
# [18:48] <annevk> s/[???]/#pf-html/
# [18:49] <mjs> DanC, looks right to me
# [18:50] <cyns> cyns: concern about using public HTML list. It's intimidating for many people to post there, so some communication is happening on private channels.
# [18:50] <Laura> Current W3C HTML WG Email Lists: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/EmailLists
# [18:50] <pimpbot> Title: HTML/EmailLists - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
# [18:50] <cyns> Doug: Having specialized sub lists can reduce traffic, make people feel safer to post.
# [18:51] <richardschwerdtfe> q?
# [18:51] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:51] <cyns> Anne: I don't like overhead of having to know which list to pick.
# [18:51] * Quits: kliehm (kliehm@80.187.104.227) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://rooms.derflash.de)
# [18:52] <cyns> Doug: Anne, I understand why you say this, but you're a person who is doing this full time. For you, not an issue to sort through all the mails. For people who are jsut trying to participate in a very part time way (15-20% of their time, or less), its easier to manage, and worth the overhead.
# [18:52] <cyns> Anne: not really convinced.
# [18:52] <cyns> Doug: I've heard 5 other people chime in.
# [18:52] <Laura> wai-xtech mailing list is for ensuring accessibility considerations are taken into account in all specifications produced by the W3C
# [18:52] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/EmailLists#head-54b24a97d673114ab597cae2d049a31f8c0c28cc
# [18:52] <pimpbot> Title: HTML/EmailLists - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
# [18:52] <cyns> Anne: I heard some desire for another list for PF, and ... I don't know.
# [18:53] * DanC wonders if that's Shawn
# [18:53] <cyns> Rich: I follow several other lists. but, I have 1500 posts over the last week from HTML. A separate list will make it easier for me.
# [18:53] * rubys that was RichardS
# [18:53] <hober> Most mail clients allow you to filter mail with [a11y] separately, so it shouldn't be an issue to have it all on public-html
# [18:53] <cyns> Anne: is it really needed? I ahven't seen the private lists. I don't think it's a good idea, but if there are more people who think it is, ok, do it.
# [18:54] <Laura> Why not use both wai-xtech and public-html ?
# [18:54] <cyns> Anne: assume most of the "bad idea" people are not on the call.
# [18:54] <cyns> Sam: take to the list. Though that's a problem, since the people asking for this are not able to keep up with that list.
# [18:55] <cyns> [speaker] why not do a poll?
# [18:55] <cyns> Sam: objections to a poll?
# [18:55] <cyns> Sam: no objections. I'll set up a poll.
# [18:55] <hober> is the poll "should we have this TF at all?" or "we're having this TF, where should it conduct its business?"
# [18:55] <cyns> Michael: could we approve the task force now, and work out the communication channel later?
# [18:56] <cyns> Dan: we're supposed to not make decisions without giving people time to partcipate asynchronously (in HTML)
# [18:56] <cyns> [speaker} can the task force work it out for themselves?
# [18:57] <annevk> s/[speaker}/anne:/
# [18:57] <cyns> Michael: start by using html or xtech, and figure out what list to use there.
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# [18:57] <cyns> Sam: We've had a proposal to create HTML Accessiblity Task Force. Only objections we've heard were to the communications channel. Those issues resolved.
# [18:58] <Zakim> -Rich
# [18:58] <cyns> Dan: Dave Singer objected to the whole idea last week.
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# [18:58] <cyns> Sam: anyone remember his objection?
# [18:58] <mjs> I also objected to the whole idea last week
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# [18:58] <cyns> Dan: IP and...
# [18:58] <hober> I'm not crazy about the idea
# [18:58] <DanC> "dsinger: and which IPR realm would it work under? [not sure I scribed that right]" -- http://www.w3.org/2009/08/13-html-wg-minutes.html#item05
# [18:58] <annevk> mjs, what's the objection?
# [18:58] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 13 Aug 2009 (at www.w3.org)
# [18:58] <Laura> Maybe a question on the poll to ask people if they are interested in participation? (6 to 8 hours per month)
# [18:58] <DanC> "dsinger: there are also governance issues... would the TF be advisory? it couldn't make binding decisions because it's not the actual WG"
# [18:58] <Laura> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html-task-force#participation
# [18:58] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Accessibility Task Force (at www.w3.org)
# [18:58] <cyns> Michael: I don't remember him saying that, but it's covered under charters for respective groups
# [18:59] <rubys> next agendum
# [18:59] * Zakim does not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items
# [18:59] <cyns> Sam: will follow up with people objecting, to make sure we've ok.
# [18:59] <mjs> and I don't think it's been proposed on public-html at all, so we don't know if non-phone participants have objections
# [18:59] * annevk have to go
# [18:59] <cyns> Sam: need to follow up, no decision on task force.
# [18:59] <Zakim> +Rich
# [19:00] <cyns> Sam: will follow up with Maceij. It has been in two meeting notices on the announce list.
# [19:00] <mjs> annevk, same as Dave Singer's + need to make sure information gets back to the full HTML WG (using public-html would address the last of these)
# [19:00] <cyns> Michael: Sorry I didn't think to send it to HTML Public list, not just announce list.
# [19:00] <Zakim> -annevk
# [19:00] <cyns> Michael: communication style list.
# [19:01] <cyns> Sam: minutes go to public list.
# [19:01] <cyns> Sam: at the end of agenda. other issues?
# [19:01] <mjs> I think the suggestion should go to public-html with a clearly identifiable subject line (much as DanC and rubys suggested for closing issues)
# [19:02] <cyns> Doug: Since I'm on the phone... What's the best way to coordinate on SVG issues. What does the HTML group need SVG group to do? What can I take back to SVG? What should we be doing to drive integration issues.
# [19:02] <mjs> Doug, see my reply to Cameron - SVG WG should decide what things are specific issues, on top of what I already filed as bugs
# [19:03] <cyns> Doug: For example, foreign object allows use of HTML content. Deliberately left it vaugue, because we didn't think it our place to describe what HTML should do. While we don't want to step on toes, we don't want it to fall through the cracks.
# [19:03] <mjs> Doug, and decide whether bugzilla bugs or ISSUEs should be filed
# [19:03] <cyns> Sam: So, you have cross-group issues that haven't been sent to list?
# [19:03] <cyns> Sam: mailing list, bug reports, or spec text
# [19:03] <mjs> shepazu, I think what HTML does in foreignObject is mainly a CSS/SVG integration issue
# [19:03] <cyns> Doug: don't know if these issues should be handled by SVG or HTML
# [19:03] <mjs> (same as what <svg> in HTML does layout-wise)
# [19:03] <cyns> Sam: send to list.
# [19:04] <Zakim> -Rich
# [19:04] <Zakim> -Radhika_Roy
# [19:04] <Zakim> -Sam
# [19:04] <Zakim> -SteveF
# [19:04] <Zakim> -Cooper
# [19:04] <Zakim> -Matt
# [19:04] <Zakim> -RobEnnals
# [19:04] <Zakim> -Julian
# [19:04] <cyns> Sam: meeting ajourned.
# [19:04] <Zakim> -SeanHayes
# [19:04] <Zakim> -Shepazu
# [19:04] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [19:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [19:04] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 20 Aug 2009 (at www.w3.org)
# [19:04] <Zakim> -Adrian
# [19:04] * rubys thanks cyns
# [19:04] <Zakim> -Laura
# [19:04] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
# [19:04] <Zakim> MikeSmith is being disconnected
# [19:04] <Zakim> -MikeSmith
# [19:04] <Zakim> -cyns
# [19:04] <DanC> RRSAgent, make logs world-access
# [19:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, DanC
# [19:05] <Zakim> -DanC
# [19:05] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
# [19:05] <Zakim> Attendees were Sam, DanC, SteveF, Matt, JoeW, Laura, Cooper, annevk, Julian, MikeSmith, +1.510.495.aaaa, Radhika_Roy, +5454558aabb, Adrian, cyns, RobEnnals, Shepazu, SeanHayes,
# [19:05] <Zakim> ... Rich
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# [19:05] <shepazu> mjs: will do
# [19:06] <mjs> shepazu: I'm expecting Cameron will follow up but you should feel free to do so as well
# [19:06] <shepazu> k
# [19:06] <mjs> shepazu: I agree that layout and hit testing integration should be defined, in both directions, but I think it's a CSS issue
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# [19:06] <kliehm> present+Martin_Kliehm
# [19:07] <mjs> shepazu: HTML layout and hit testing is essentially defined by CSS, and is the same as for generic XML styled with CSS
# [19:07] <DanC> action-86 due next week
# [19:07] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-86.
# [19:07] <trackbot> ACTION-86 Review Thomas Broyer's IETF ID to see if we can postpone ISSUE-13 due date now next week
# [19:07] <kliehm> present +Martin_Kliehm
# [19:07] <shepazu> mjs: yes, agreed, it's an issue for HTML, SVG, and CSS WGs... which makes it thorny to coordinate on
# [19:08] <mjs> shepazu: I don't think HTML WG needs to be involved at all
# [19:08] <mjs> (except maybe in advisory capacity)
# [19:08] <DanC> ACTION-136 due 10 Sep
# [19:08] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-136.
# [19:08] <trackbot> ACTION-136 Send draft to the list, due in three weeks due date now 10 Sep
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# [19:09] <shepazu> mjs: so, you think the HTML WG would be cool with the SVG making specific wording in our specs to fill in cracks (subject to public review, of course)?
# [19:10] <mjs> shepazu: either SVG WG or CSS WG should do it, preferably in coordination
# [19:10] <mjs> it's not specifically about HTML, it's about anything subject to CSS layout
# [19:11] * DanC leaves the rest of the tracker updates to others
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# [19:11] <mjs> I will close the issues to be closed when I get to the office
# [19:12] <shepazu> I suspect there will be things related to HTML and not to layout... I guess we'll address them on a case-by-case basis
# [19:12] * Parts: richardschwerdtfe (RichS@99.39.114.91)
# [19:12] <mjs> that's totally possible - those should be SVG/HTML issues
# [19:13] <mjs> however, layout of <svg> inside HTML content, HTML inside <svg:foreignObject>, and hit testing of mixed HTML/SVG are all really SVG/CSS issues
# [19:14] <mjs> because CSS is the place that defines HTML layout and hit testing (and the issues are the same for any other language using CSS layout, even generic XML styled with CSS)
# [19:15] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7386] SharedWorkerGlobalScope <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0239.html> ** [Bug 7387] small element should have same content model as a, ins, del <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0238.html>
# [19:16] <shepazu> mjs: what about HTML being zoomed to fill the viewport, when used in a <foreignObject> in an SVG with a smallish viewBox... currently, it looks pretty ugly, especially form controls... would that also be a layout/presentation thing?
# [19:17] <mjs> shepazu: mostly it's a layout thing, form control appearance (including when zoomed) is sort of not specified anywhere though
# [19:17] <mjs> shepazu: so if form controls look ugly when zoomed, it's basically a quality-of-implementation bug
# [19:17] <mjs> shepazu: FWIW we plan to fix it in Safari so zoomed form controls look good - besides SVG we need to do it for CSS transforms and for our full-page zoom feature
# [19:18] <mjs> we know they can look broken in some cases right now
# [19:19] <shepazu> mjs: you think it would be reasonable for the SVG spec to say something along the lines of "to preserve the appearance of foreign content when zoomed, implementations should rasterize the presentations at a later stage than determining the viewport" or something advisory like that?
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# [19:20] <mjs> shepazu: I'm not really sure what that means exactly
# [19:21] <shepazu> mjs: actually, WebKit does a pretty good job, though there are serious issues with where you place the search-string highlights and input cursor and such... Opera (surprisingly) is the one that needs the most work right now, I think
# [19:21] <shepazu> mjs: I'll work up some real text and run it by you sometime
# [19:21] <mjs> shepazu: I think it basically comes down to quality-of-implementation bugs, but if CSS Transforms imposes any specific requirements, then it should probably say CSS content affected by an SVG transform should behave the same
# [19:22] <mjs> that or SVG could contain matching requirements
# [19:22] <shepazu> right
# [19:22] <shepazu> CSS Transforms spec seems to be stalled a bit, last I checked... any progress there?
# [19:23] <mjs> I don't know of there being any problems with it
# [19:24] <mjs> I think the bottom line on form controls is this: as far as the specs are concerned (for now anyway), rendering of form controls is completely 100% up to the implementation, so that makes it hard to define a "don't look ugly when zoomed" requirement
# [19:24] <shepazu> maybe I just need to track it better
# [19:24] <shepazu> heh
# [19:25] <mjs> Gecko and WebKit have experimental implementations of 2D transforms and WebKit now also has 3D transforms
# [19:26] <shepazu> mjs: yup... but the spec isn't moving forward
# [19:26] <mjs> I don't know what you mean by "moving forward" in this case
# [19:26] <mjs> like, going to Last Call?
# [19:26] <mjs> (I don't think it needs a lot of material changes)
# [19:26] <shepazu> I heard a complaint about that recently on some mailing list outside w3c
# [19:27] <shepazu> mjs: yeah, like moving on the Rec Track
# [19:27] <shepazu> I guess I should bug the CSS WG about this
# [19:27] <mjs> I can ask the folks at Apple involved in it
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# [19:45] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7389] New: Shouldn't "formnoValidate" be "formNoValidate"? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0240.html>
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# [19:53] * rubys1 wonders how many people actually read my annoucements (e.g., http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JulSep/0025.html) and how many simply go directly to the tracker (http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda)
# [19:53] <pimpbot> Title: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2009-08-20 from Sam Ruby on 2009-08-19 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from July to September 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
# [20:01] <pimpbot> planet: HTML 5: what’s hot, what’s not <http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2009/html-5-whats-hot-whats-not/>
# [20:04] <mjs> rubys1: I think it would help if you put highlights in the subject line or at the top of the email
# [20:05] <mjs> rubys1: like an executive summary version of the agenda before the standard "how to dial in" template
# [20:06] <mjs> rubys1: as it is, when I look at that message, I have to scroll way down before I see content that isn't just identical every week
# [20:07] * smedero has to admit that, while he reads rubys1's email, generally leans towards the http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda view as that is what most people seem to follow
# [20:07] <pimpbot> Title: Input for Agenda Planning for the HTML Weekly - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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# [20:12] <mjs> the tracker agenda view doesn't seem to match the email agenda very well
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# [23:02] <rubys> hsivonen and/or Hixie: why is my page not validating? http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http://intertwingly.net/blog/
# [23:02] <pimpbot> Title: (X)HTML5 validation results for http://intertwingly.net/blog/ (at html5.validator.nu)
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# [23:11] <mjs_> rubys: the error seems clear - presumably either a genuine SVG issue or a bug in the validator schema
# [23:11] * mjs_ is now known as mjs
# [23:15] <rubys> duh, I can read the message. But it is a valid use of xlink that actually does something useful that either the spec or the validator doesn't support.
# [23:16] <rubys> Interesting: chrome doesn't do anything with the title, but firefox does.
# [23:17] <mjs> I don't think WebKit knows about xlink:title
# [23:17] <rubys> mjs, since you are here; my blog is affected by https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14240
# [23:17] <pimpbot> Title: Bug 14240 Opacity affects clipping of circles (at bugs.webkit.org)
# [23:18] <mjs> Gecko has a full XLink implementation which they had to hack up a little to work with the different SVG semantics for some xlink attributes
# [23:18] <rubys> the intertwingly knot in the lower right is meant to be opacity: 0.3, but when I do that with webkit based browsers, it gets clipped oddly.
# [23:20] <rubys> xlink:title is mentioned in the HTML5 draft, so my thoughts at the moment are on validator bug.
# [23:20] <mjs> rubys: I think xlink:title is only allowed on <a> in SVG, per the schema
# [23:20] * rubys wonders where sheppers is when you need him
# [23:22] <mjs> actually, that's slightly wrong, I think anything in SVG that allows xlink:href also allows xlink:title, but <path> does not allow any of the XLink attributes
# [23:22] <mjs> relevant SVG schema chunk here: http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/paths.html#PathElement
# [23:22] <pimpbot> Title: Paths - SVG 1.1 - 20030114 (at www.w3.org)
# [23:26] <mjs> rubys: what I'm seeing currently on your blog page is that the watermark is present but not faded in Safari
# [23:26] <mjs> rubys: did you add a workaround?
# [23:26] <rubys> opacity: 0.3; -webkit-opacity: 1; /* https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14240 */
# [23:26] <pimpbot> Title: Bug 14240 Opacity affects clipping of circles (at bugs.webkit.org)
# [23:26] <rubys> that's in http://intertwingly.net/css/blogx.css
# [23:28] <mjs> rubys: would you mind posting a test case somewhere that doesn't have a WebKit workaround?
# [23:31] <mjs> at the moment I don't see the bug if I hack the opacity back to 0.3 with the Web Inspector
# [23:32] <mjs> rubys: it may have been fixed since you commented in the bug
# [23:33] <rubys> just a sec, I'll simply undo the hack
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# [23:45] <rubys> sorry, had a phone call. Removed the hack, and it now works with Chrome 3.0.198.1 on Ubuntu with no clipping issues.
# [23:47] <mjs> seems to work on Safari 4.0.3 as well
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# Session Close: Fri Aug 21 00:00:00 2009

The end :)