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- # Session Start: Wed Sep 02 00:00:00 2009
- # Session Ident: #html-wg
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- # [02:10] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7389] Shouldn't "formnoValidate" be "formNoValidate"? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0004.html>
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- # [09:12] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7479] New: The content attribute should be all-lowercase: formnovalidate <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0005.html>
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- # [14:13] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7480] use of keygen should trigger a warning. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0007.html> ** [Bug 7480] New: use of keygen should trigger a warning. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0006.html>
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- # [14:52] <rubys> hsivonen: you around?
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- # [15:00] <hsivonen> rubys: yes
- # [15:01] <rubys> thoughts on how to proceed with the zeldman/tantek request? I'm willing to do the coding if tantek or others provide the test cases...
- # [15:01] <hsivonen> rubys: I commented this morning, but my comment got stuck in the moderation queue
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- # [15:02] <Lachy> what's the zeldman/tantek request?
- # [15:02] <hsivonen> rubys: currently, the way I'm trying to proceed is to discover what the Super Friends really want
- # [15:02] <rubys> hsivonen: hence my request for test cases
- # [15:02] <Lachy> (can we please not call them the "super friends". That's such a pretentious name.
- # [15:02] <hsivonen> rubys: as opposed to implementing something that I can point to and say "see. you didn't want *this* did you"
- # [15:03] <rubys> again, wouldn't asking them to provide test cases solve this?
- # [15:03] <hsivonen> rubys: I was thinking that writing a few sample documents and asking if they *really* want them to be invalid would be the next step for me
- # [15:03] <hsivonen> rubys: but asking tantek or zeldman to write test cases is another possible next step
- # [15:04] <rubys> first, I don't think invalid is the right word... at most a warning.
- # [15:04] <rubys> second, I do believe that shifting the burden of work for writing test cases is the right path.
- # [15:04] <rubys> it isn't even much burden: produce a HTML document and state what warning should (or should not) appear given that document.
- # [15:05] <rubys> Lachy: the request is to make the validator have a mode that identifies things like unclosed tags, but we don't know for sure what the request is just that it be "more XHTML" like.
- # [15:06] <hsivonen> rubys: my comment in the moderation queue: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/669362
- # [15:06] <pimpbot> Title: Mozilla Pastebin - collaborative debugging tool (at pastebin.mozilla.org)
- # [15:09] <rubys> key part of your message is "esoteric". I run into people that are asking for what Zeldman and Tantek are asking for all the time. Trying to talk them out of it is a fools errand.
- # [15:10] <rubys> Ultimately, they are either right or wrong. If the former, this should be implemented. If the latter, implementing it and letting them come to their own conclusion is the right path.
- # [15:11] <hsivonen> rubys: I guess you are right.
- # [15:11] <rubys> I'm willing to do the coding *IFF* they produce the test cases.
- # [15:11] <hsivonen> rubys: seems like a plan
- # [15:12] <rubys> so... can we talk about how to expose and implement the option?
- # [15:13] <hsivonen> rubys: Do you want a quick demo or do you want a proper implementation whose non-silly parts can stay later?
- # [15:13] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 7480] use of keygen should trigger a warning." (3 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0009.html>
- # [15:13] <Lachy> right, like some kind of an Appendix C checker, but for HTML5 and using some undefined subset of XHTML syntax
- # [15:13] <rubys> I want a proper implementation, but am quite willing to annotate it so that it can be all be quickly yanked should it turn out to be a dead end.
- # [15:14] <hsivonen> rubys: OK
- # [15:14] <rubys> Lachy: exactly... now we simply need to convert undefined to defined. I want to make that Tantek's/Zeldman's problem.
- # [15:15] <hsivonen> rubys: the way I was planning on implementing the implied tag messages was having a subclass of SAXParseException for denoting informational messages and then pass those to warning() on ErrorHandler
- # [15:15] <hsivonen> rubys: to avoid extending ErrorHandler in the parser
- # [15:15] <Lachy> maybe they want a polyglot document checker, which is at least possible to derive requirements for
- # [15:16] <hsivonen> rubys: and then on the validator side, do an instanceof on the subclass and dispatch those to the usual info code path
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- # [15:16] <hsivonen> rubys: since this way, the messages degrade gracefully to warnings in plain ErrorHandler consumers
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- # [15:17] <rubys> hsivonen: can we walk through a concrete example? Look at the Tokenizer diff in http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/07/19/Humpty-Dumpty
- # [15:17] <pimpbot> Title: Sam Ruby: Humpty Dumpty (at intertwingly.net)
- # [15:18] <hsivonen> rubys: instead of warn(), I'd introduce a new method info()
- # [15:18] <hsivonen> that would look like warn() except it would create an instance of a subclass of SAXParseException instead of a plain SAXParseException
- # [15:19] <karl> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/NOTE-powder-primer-20090901/#publish
- # [15:19] <pimpbot> Title: Protocol for Web Description Resources (POWDER): Primer (at www.w3.org)
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- # [15:20] <karl> "When using HTML link elements in this way, authors should also refer to POWDER's profile document as shown below, if using an HTML version that supports it."
- # [15:20] <hsivonen> rubys: maybe there should be a toggle in the parser for emitting these infos at all
- # [15:20] <karl> "This may be used, for example, in XHTML documents annotated with RDFa as described in section 4.1.3 of the Description Resources document [DR]. One important benefit of using RDFa to link to POWDER documents is that it allows you to point to a description of the destination of a hyperlink."
- # [15:21] <hsivonen> rubys: and the safest way to expose the toggle is through SAX get/setFeature
- # [15:21] <hsivonen> rubys: to avoid introducing API surface for other users of the parser
- # [15:22] <hsivonen> rubys: the instanceof-based dispatch from SAX warning into real SAX warning and into V.nu info would go to /validator/src/nu/validator/messages/MessageEmitterAdapter.java
- # [15:22] <rubys> hsivonen: how about this: info can have an additional parameter which is an enum which indicates which subset of the language it is checking for. Unless checking for that that subset is enabled, no further processing is done. If enabled, a standard warning is produced.
- # [15:23] <rubys> and your conversion to C for gecko can omit these calls entirely.
- # [15:24] <hsivonen> rubys: would plain SAX ErrorHandler consumers get all infos unconditionally through warning()?
- # [15:24] <hsivonen> rubys: I'd like to make this opt-in for plain SAX ErrorHandler consumers
- # [15:25] <rubys> What I thought I described (apparently unsuccessfully) was that calls to info would have zero effect by default, and would only do anything if that subset was enabled, through SAX setFeature.
- # [15:25] <hsivonen> rubys: ok
- # [15:26] <rubys> hsivonen: cool. the subclass of SAXParseException could still be done, but I wouldn't expect most consumers to care.
- # [15:26] <rubys> ... as they would only be getting the warnings that they asked for.
- # [15:27] <hsivonen> rubys: I expect the V.nu front end consumer to care but others not to care
- # [15:28] <hsivonen> rubys: basically, I think that zcorpan's idea (IIRC) of not even calling these warnings but putting these on the "info" level in the UI makes sense
- # [15:28] <J_Voracek> My apologies, but I must leave to fix an issue
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- # [15:29] <rubys> ok. Initial implementation will be a subclass of SAXParseException, but I won't initially tackle the UI changes.
- # [15:30] <hsivonen> rubys: ok
- # [15:30] <rubys> Subclass instances could even contain the enum value I mentioned above.
- # [15:30] <hsivonen> makes sense
- # [15:39] <rubys> hsivonen: one last thing... if I start getting in test cases (in the form of HTML fragment, expected informational text), where should I put them? I haven't looked into the V.nu test suite, so any pointers would be appreciated.
- # [15:42] <hsivonen> rubys: I suggest creating a tests/ directory next to the test-harness/ directory in the "validator" repo
- # [15:43] <rubys> how does one run the current harness?
- # [15:44] <hsivonen> the tests need to go live on an HTTP server somewhere
- # [15:44] <hsivonen> then, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_validator-tester.py
- # [15:44] <pimpbot> Title: Validator.nu validator-tester.py - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org)
- # [15:44] <hsivonen> rubys: you'll find there are next to no tests, because the interest in a test suite pretty much died out after TPAC 2007
- # [15:45] <rubys> cool. That should be enough to get me started.
- # [15:45] <rubys> For my part, I will insist on tests being provided, and I only intend to fix things for which there are tests.
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- # [15:46] <rubys> the current tests pass?
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- # [15:46] <hsivonen> rubys: I'm not sure. I have been too Firefox-focused lately.
- # [15:47] <hsivonen> in fact, I should get around to doing another round of V.nu deployment with all the recent goodness Mike has checked in
- # [15:48] <hsivonen> I have an appointment, so I have to leave now. I'll be back tomorrow.
- # [15:48] <rubys> I'll probably not get around to this until next week at the earliest myself. If I find tests that fail, I'll let you know. Worst case, we'll comment those specific tests out for now.
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- # [16:26] <karl> http://broadcast.oreilly.com/print/37844.html
- # [16:26] <pimpbot> Title: Jotting on parsers for SGML-family document languages: SGML, HTML, XML - O'Reilly Broadcast (at broadcast.oreilly.com)
- # [16:27] <karl> "Also, I have been impressed by the HTML 5 WG's efforts w.r.t. syntax, and I wanted to sort out what I think about syntax better. So I thought I'd make some little diagrams roughly scoping a basic machine for SGML family parsers."
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- # [16:37] <rubys> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/09/02/Polyglot-Validation
- # [16:37] <pimpbot> Title: Sam Ruby: Polyglot Validation (at intertwingly.net)
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- # [16:51] <karl> http://josephscott.org/archives/2009/08/xmlhttprequest-xhr-uses-multiple-packets-for-http-post/
- # [16:51] <pimpbot> Title: XMLHttpRequest (XHR) Uses Multiple Packets for HTTP POST? || Joseph Scott (at josephscott.org)
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- # [18:04] <MikeSmith> http://www.bitsandbuzz.com/article/silverlight-good-for-adobe-bad-for-microsoft/
- # [18:04] <pimpbot> Title: Silverlight: Good for Adobe, Bad for Microsoft | Bits And Buzz, by Jeremy Chone (at www.bitsandbuzz.com)
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- # [18:07] <MikeSmith> maybe dude can be encouraged to write an update
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- # [20:44] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7481] New: The Form submission algorithm section states "If the submitter is anything but a form element...", yet this section states "validate the constraints of form element form". <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0010.html>
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The end :)