/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-09-03 / end

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  18. # [01:46] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7475] Semantics of rel=first and rel=index breaks specs and implementations <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0011.html>
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  34. # [08:47] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7482] New: The maxLength attribute for input elements can be -1, indicating no maxlength attribute present, per DOM Level 2 HTML. HTML 5 has changed that to be "unsigned long", which -1 cannot be. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0012.html>
  35. # [09:48] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7483] New: The footer element desperately needs to be able to contain sectioning content descendents, most importantly "nav". Under the current specification, I will just end up using div class="footer" so my footers can contain sectioning content. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0013.html>
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  39. # [10:18] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7484] New: head/@profile holds a white-space separated list of URIs <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0014.html>
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  42. # [11:08] <hsivonen> I'm having trouble seeing the distinction in the "definition" of <plaintext> and @scheme.
  43. # [11:08] * Joins: anne (annevk@83.85.115.44)
  44. # [11:12] <Lachy> Hixie, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#plaintext - the spec should advise authors to use either text/plain or <pre>
  45. # [11:12] <pimpbot> Title: HTML5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  46. # [11:12] <hsivonen> I'm tempted to go find the media type registration rules, but I have other things to do
  47. # [11:13] <Hixie> Lachy: why would they use <pre>?
  48. # [11:13] <Hixie> <plaintext>'s replacement was text/plain, not <pre>
  49. # [11:13] <Lachy> replace <plaintext>... with <pre>...</pre>
  50. # [11:14] <Lachy> it depends if plaintext is used for an entire document, or if it's just some text at the end of an otherwise normal HTML document
  51. # [11:15] <Lachy> e.g. It would be better to use <pre> in a situation like: <!DOCTYPE html><title>Foo</title><p>Whatever... <plaintext>some plain text content.
  52. # [11:15] <Hixie> <plaintext> only ever to my knowledge existed as a feature to be used at the top of a document, in the days before Content-Type headers.
  53. # [11:17] <Lachy> Is that how it's used in practice?
  54. # [11:18] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7427] When the maxlength attribute is omitted it should return -1 like Opera and Firefox and not 0. (Alternatively it could return the maximum value like Chrome and presumably Safari do, but that seems less nice. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0016.html> ** [Bug 7482] The maxLength attribute for input elements can be -1, indicating no maxlength attribute present, per DOM Level 2 HTML. HTML 5 has changed
  55. # [11:19] <Hixie> Lachy: it's not used in practice.
  56. # [11:19] <hsivonen> Lachy: in practice, it is used for "your sanitizer sucks" demos
  57. # [11:22] <Lachy> did you never come across it in any of your analyses of the web?
  58. # [11:23] <Hixie> not in any significant numbers, afair
  59. # [11:25] <Lachy> yeah, I didn't expect it to be significant, though I expected perhaps a small number, like a few dozen pages total
  60. # [11:26] <hsivonen> I think I've seen a page that used <plaintext> in the pre-HTTP 1.0 way, and the page had actually sat on the file system of a Web server since the earliest days of the Web
  61. # [11:27] <hsivonen> I think it was meeting minutes for one of the clubs at the student union at Helsinki University of Technology
  62. # [11:33] <jgraham> Would browsers agree to drop it?
  63. # [11:34] <hsivonen> there's a use case, though:
  64. # [11:34] <hsivonen> document.writing <plaintext> in order to capture the source code into a JS-based parser
  65. # [11:35] <hsivonen> as in Philip's S-expression parser
  66. # [11:35] <Lachy> how does plaintext help get the source in JS, and more than just reading .innerHTML?
  67. # [11:35] <jgraham> That seems like a marginal use case at best :) and is non-conforming anyway
  68. # [11:36] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Ping timeout)
  69. # [11:37] <hsivonen> Lachy: innerHTML reserializes. <plaintext> allows you to see the original UTF-16 stream
  70. # [11:37] <Lachy> oh
  71. # [11:37] <hsivonen> jgraham: it may not be marginal if we start using it to upgrade the parsers of old browsers using js libs
  72. # [11:37] <jgraham> <script> seems like it would work fine, with the restiction that you couldn't have the literal string </script>
  73. # [11:37] <jgraham> *restriction
  74. # [11:38] <hsivonen> jgraham: that's a pretty severe restriction if you want a drop-in <script src="html5.js"></script> that magically makes SVG and stuff work in legacy browsers
  75. # [11:38] <Lachy> hsivonen, where is Phillip's S-expression parser?
  76. # [11:38] <jgraham> Yeah it wouldn't work for that.
  77. # [11:39] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233)
  78. # [11:39] <jgraham> I'm not convinced that javascript is fast enough to implement HTML in javascript parsers anyway
  79. # [11:39] <hsivonen> Lachy: can't remember. It's usually hard to find Philip's pages after the fact
  80. # [11:39] <jgraham> At least ones that you would deploy on a production site
  81. # [11:40] <hsivonen> jgraham: JS may well be fast enough but the JS-DOM boundary may suck
  82. # [11:41] <jgraham> Yeah that is slow even in relatively fast js-engines
  83. # [11:41] <Lachy> hsivonen, removing plaintext support from newer HTML5 parsers won't affect the ability to use it "to upgrade the parsers of old browsers using js libs", if that's even a feasible thing to do.
  84. # [11:41] <hsivonen> Lachy: it will for HTML6
  85. # [11:41] <jgraham> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/sexp.html
  86. # [11:43] <Lachy> surely there would be more efficient ways to make the necessary changes in the DOM for, e.g. new empty elements introduced in HTML6 that need special parsing requirements
  87. # [11:44] <Lachy> and which wouldn't require implementing an entire HTML6 parser utilising <plaintext> to get the source
  88. # [11:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: regarding profile, shouldn't your argumentation be based on what GRDDL agents do--not on what HTML4 says?
  89. # [11:45] <hsivonen> Lachy: maybe we figure out a way to do XBL2 in text/html despite the apparent issues
  90. # [11:45] <Lachy> gotta go, back soon.
  91. # [11:45] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  92. # [11:46] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'm sure julian would never suggest that we should ignore a spec and pay attention to reality instead. that would be contrary to all his statements to date.
  93. # [11:47] <Julian> Come on. I didn't say ignore it. I said: *read* it, see it's inconsistent, and incorporate an erratum that everybody (maybe except you) seems to agree on.
  94. # [11:48] <anne> hsivonen, has anyone created a polyglot validator mash-up yet?
  95. # [11:48] <hsivonen> anne: not to my knowledge
  96. # [11:49] <Hixie> Julian: what's inconsistent?
  97. # [11:49] * anne is going to figure out how easy that would be
  98. # [11:50] <hsivonen> anne: you can't do it as a mashup with the V.nu Web service if you want to compare document trees
  99. # [11:50] <Julian> If you aren't aware of that, you haven't done your work. Or just read my recent mail. Or the bugzilla entry.
  100. # [11:50] <anne> hsivonen, comparing trees is essential?
  101. # [11:50] * anne forgot about that :/
  102. # [11:51] <Hixie> julian: you didn't quote anything that was inconsistent.
  103. # [11:51] <Hixie> Julian: it's defined as a list, and "this specification only considers the first URI to be significant"
  104. # [11:51] <Philip> Lachy: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/sexp.html
  105. # [11:51] <mjs> I think it's ok to extend HTML4.01's definition of a feature if it better matches existing content and what existing consumers do, even for an obsolete feature
  106. # [11:51] <Philip> Oh, jgraham already found it :-(
  107. # [11:51] <Julian> And that's a well-known bug.
  108. # [11:51] <Hixie> existing content doesn't use profile="".
  109. # [11:52] <Hixie> the well-known bug is the existence of profile="" at all.
  110. # [11:52] <Philip> hsivonen: Usually it's okay that it's hard to find my pages, since they have approximately zero value and it decreases over time
  111. # [11:52] <Julian> That's incorrect.
  112. # [11:52] <Hixie> no, it's correct everywhere but a tiny portion of some ivory tower set of content that really doesn't matter.
  113. # [11:52] <Julian> It doesn't matter to you.
  114. # [11:52] <Julian> Apparently.
  115. # [11:52] <Hixie> profile="" is a ridiculous feature that i really can't believe i'm spending time talking about.
  116. # [11:53] <anne> wait, if you disagree with profile being obsolete you should argue that
  117. # [11:53] <anne> not the way it is defined
  118. # [11:53] <Julian> So, don't. And let the WG decide on it when we get there.
  119. # [11:53] <Hixie> ok
  120. # [11:53] <Hixie> i shall henceforth stop talking about profile="".
  121. # [11:53] <mjs> if the spec is going to cater to the ivory tower content at all by defining the potential processing requirements of an obsolete feature, it may as well define it in the way the ivory tower content actually wants
  122. # [11:54] <mjs> (I don't know if there's actually any content out there that uses multiple profile URLs or processors that expect that.)
  123. # [11:55] <Julian> There is content out there, becazse it's inevitable once you combine different profiles in a single document; such as hcard (as recommended by microformats), GRDDL, and DC-HTML.
  124. # [11:55] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
  125. # [11:56] <mjs> can you cite any actual documents in the wild that do that, or HTML consumers that handle multiple profile URLs properly?
  126. # [11:56] <Philip> (http://philip.html5.org/data/profile-values-2.txt shows what's written in some content)
  127. # [11:57] <mjs> some multiple URLs are rare-ish but statistically significant
  128. # [11:57] <mjs> s/some/so/
  129. # [11:57] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@84.190.168.147)
  130. # [11:58] <Julian> Allowing multiple URIs is the only way the feature can work, I've produced documents like that myself, I've seen them in the wild, and Philip's statistics show them too.
  131. # [11:58] * Philip doesn't know whether the pages with multiple profile URLs are all from a small handful of sites, or spread out a lot
  132. # [12:02] <mjs> does HTML5 have a defined syntax for a space-separated list of URLs?
  133. # [12:02] <Hixie> it has a defined syntax for space-separated list of tokens, each token of which can be a URL, yes
  134. # [12:03] <Julian> a/@ping has the same syntax
  135. # [12:04] <Julian> (don't take that as agreement that a/@ping should stay in)
  136. # [12:04] <mjs> it seems like the change to allow processing as a space-separated list of tokens, each of which is a list of URLs, would be trivial and would better reflect existing practice (for the admittedly rare case of profile being processed at all) without offending anyone's sensibilities
  137. # [12:05] <mjs> er, space-separated list of tokens, each of which is a URL I mean
  138. # [12:06] <mjs> Julian: can you file a bug in bugzilla that says that and Cc me? (mjs@apple.com)
  139. # [12:06] <mjs> Julian: I need to get some sleep before the telecon
  140. # [12:07] <Julian> I filed it already...
  141. # [12:07] <Hixie> wait, you don't want html5 to define profile="" like html4 did?
  142. # [12:07] <Hixie> i thought the whole point here was to make the text/html registration not change the rules from html4
  143. # [12:08] <Julian> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7484
  144. # [12:08] <pimpbot> 7484: julian.reschke@gmx.de, P2, NEW, head/@profile holds a white-space separated list of URIs
  145. # [12:08] <anne> aaah, pimpbot got coloring? crap
  146. # [12:09] <Julian> I want the definition to be there, and also resolve a known issue in HTML 4.
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  148. # [12:10] <Hixie> but you don't want it to resolve the _other_ "known issue", namely the existence of profile="" at all.
  149. # [12:10] <Hixie> so how can i know which known issues we should be resolving and which we should not?
  150. # [12:11] <mjs> it seems like obsoleting it and making it nonconforming is the most that can be done to address the "existince" issue
  151. # [12:11] <Hixie> no, we could make it do nothing, also
  152. # [12:11] <mjs> well, I suppose you could also say all HTML consumers MUST ignore the value
  153. # [12:12] <Hixie> that's what we used to say
  154. # [12:12] <Hixie> but julian said that wasn't acceptable
  155. # [12:12] <Hixie> whence my confusion, since i thought that meant julian wanted the spec to match html4
  156. # [12:12] * Quits: tH (Rob@82.4.89.172) (Ping timeout)
  157. # [12:12] <Julian> It's in conflict with specs that use it.
  158. # [12:12] <Hixie> but now he says he also wants "known issues" fixed
  159. # [12:12] <Hixie> so why should those specs not be the ones to be fixed?
  160. # [12:13] <Hixie> why do you always think it is html5 that needs to be fixed and not the other specs?
  161. # [12:14] <mjs> it seems to me that if you allow HTML consumers to process the value at all, it's no worse to allow them to process a list of URLs than a URL, and arguably better since it better reflects what the HTML consumers that care about this actually do
  162. # [12:14] <Hixie> sure, but it's even better to have them not process the value at all, so if the goal is technical correctness, then we should do that.
  163. # [12:14] <Hixie> but i thought the goal was making the text/html registration include html4's semantics.
  164. # [12:15] <Hixie> s/correctness/superiority/
  165. # [12:17] <anne> I think that for the profile attribute the legacy case is that UAs need to process it as a space-separated list of URLs and the forward looking case is presumably rel=profile
  166. # [12:18] <mjs> in this case it seems Julian wants to capture the html4 semantics and also extend them (in a compatible way) to better match reality
  167. # [12:18] <Julian> Anne, agreed.
  168. # [12:18] <mjs> whether this is consistent with his other positions or not, it seems like a reasonable position
  169. # [12:18] <anne> I wonder if there's an equivalent somewhere
  170. # [12:18] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7485] New: obsolete permitted DOCTYPEs link is broken in author view <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0017.html>
  171. # [12:19] <Hixie> mjs: reality (99.995% of pages according to Philip's data) is that pages don't have more than one profile="" value.
  172. # [12:19] <Julian> mjs, HTML4 is inconsistent. And as far as I can tell, the main reason why it was never fixed is a W3C process issue, not disagreement about what the fix is.
  173. # [12:19] <Hixie> html4 isn't inconsistent
  174. # [12:20] <mjs> HTML5 doesn't seem to accurately reflect HTML4 on this, whether HTML4 is consistent or not
  175. # [12:20] <Julian> So saying "is is a single URI" *and* "it's a list of URIs" is consistent?
  176. # [12:20] <mjs> the literal-minded way to follow it would be to say the attribute should be processed as a space-separated list of tokens, and then all but the first must be ignored
  177. # [12:21] <Julian> mjs, that's what HTML4 says, but that of course doesn't work in practice. It's a bug in HTML4, as simply as that.
  178. # [12:21] <Hixie> Julian: the spec says that the attribute is a single uri (for authors) and should be trimmed after the first space (for UAs)
  179. # [12:21] <Hixie> Julian: how is that inconsistent?
  180. # [12:23] <Hixie> in HTML5 we don't need to worry about the HTML4-non-conforming case of multiple values, since (a) no conforming document will ever include more than one value, since html4 only allowed one and html5 disallows the attribute, and (b) because 99.995% of pages don't have more than one.
  181. # [12:23] <Julian> "This attribute specifies the location of one or more meta data profiles, separated by white space."
  182. # [12:23] <Hixie> that's a non-normative statement of fact with no normative conformance criteria in it.
  183. # [12:23] <Julian> That describes the semantics of the attribute; it's not specific to consumers or producers.
  184. # [12:23] <Julian> The syntax definition (DTD) is inconsistent with that.
  185. # [12:24] <mjs> none of the text about profile uses any conformance keywords afaict
  186. # [12:24] <Hixie> well then we can ignore the spec and rely on data
  187. # [12:24] <Hixie> which says that 99.995% of pages don't need anything more than one url
  188. # [12:24] <Hixie> or we could ignore the pages and look at UAs
  189. # [12:24] <Hixie> which all ignore the profiles except for a few academic projects
  190. # [12:25] <Julian> You could also listen to the people who actually use profile.
  191. # [12:25] <mjs> I think in the days of HTML4.01, the informal language was taken to establish conformance criteria, and in this case it does seem facially inconsistent
  192. # [12:26] <anne> Hixie, so?
  193. # [12:26] <mjs> it also seems like it would take less effort to change this than to argue about it, and I don't think the change would cause any harm, nor do I think anyone would object to it
  194. # [12:26] <anne> Hixie, if processing it as a space-separated list of URLs is more compatible, why not do it that way?
  195. # [12:27] <Hixie> i don't have a problem with processing it as a space-separated list of URLs, i have a problem with the way julian's position keeps changing such that i have no idea what on earth he wants
  196. # [12:27] <Hixie> one day he wants the spec to match html4 for text/html registration purposes
  197. # [12:28] <Hixie> one day he wants "known issues" to be fixed
  198. # [12:28] <Hixie> despite this contradicting the earlier request
  199. # [12:28] <Hixie> then he wants "meaning" to be defined, but can't say what that is
  200. # [12:28] <mjs> I think he asked for this one specific issue to be fixed, as an amendment to his general request
  201. # [12:28] <anne> where did he wanted it to match HTML4?
  202. # [12:28] * Joins: myakura (myakura@114.163.207.14)
  203. # [12:28] <anne> that cannot be done anyway
  204. # [12:28] <Hixie> anne: mailing list, a few days ago
  205. # [12:29] <anne> was it meant literally?
  206. # [12:29] <Julian> Hixie, my position with respect to this hasn't changed a single time.
  207. # [12:29] <mjs> the "meaning" part seems like a separate issue that doesn't affect the processing rules for the profile attribute's value
  208. # [12:29] <Julian> don't put words in my mouth
  209. # [12:29] <mjs> anyway, I'm off to get some token amount of sleep
  210. # [12:29] <Hixie> nn mjs
  211. # [12:30] <Hixie> Julian: then you have not been very good at articulating your position
  212. # [12:30] <Hixie> Julian: because from where i sit, it's felt like every time i make a change, you change what you want.
  213. # [12:30] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@84.190.168.147) (Ping timeout)
  214. # [12:30] <Hixie> Julian: and half the time i don't even understand your objections.
  215. # [12:31] <Hixie> (which leads me to doubt that i am actually understanding any of them)
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  218. # [12:33] <hsivonen> Julian: can you point to an RFC trail that connects the bug you raised about @profile to the IANA/IETF media type registration rules?
  219. # [12:33] <anne> there are no suchrules
  220. # [12:33] <anne> it's "obvious"
  221. # [12:34] <hsivonen> anne: comparing trees (or black-box equivalent behavior) is essential for establishing that a document is polyglot and not merely valid HTML5 and XHTML5 but with different meaning
  222. # [12:34] <hsivonen> anne: of course, it's *impossible* to contruct a perfect (X)HTML5 polyglot document due to xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
  223. # [12:35] <hsivonen> anne: so if one wants a polyglot checker that isn't simply
  224. # [12:35] <hsivonen> print "FAIL!"
  225. # [12:35] <Lachy> hsivonen, if we have to compare trees, then all polyglot documents would have to include <tbody>, or else the <table><tr>... case would differ
  226. # [12:35] <hsivonen> one must ignore the no-namespace attribute with local name xmlns in certain cases
  227. # [12:35] <jgraham> Lachy: Yes
  228. # [12:35] <hsivonen> Lachy: correct
  229. # [12:36] <jgraham> Lachy: The people who want "polyglot" documents generally don't
  230. # [12:36] <Julian> Henri, the bug that I raised (if you're referring to @proflie) has nothing to do with the media type registration. We're only discussing this now as the text was recently added *because* of the media type reg issue, and I'd like it to be accurate.
  231. # [12:36] <hsivonen> Julian: I see
  232. # [12:36] <Lachy> jgraham, generally don't do what?
  233. # [12:37] <jgraham> Lachy: Want polyglot documents. They want a few extra syntactic restrictions on top of HTML some of which are sane "always quote attribute values" some of which are stupid "void elements have a trailing slash"
  234. # [12:38] <anne> I can't believe tantek used the argument about consistently closing btw
  235. # [12:38] <anne> I mean, it makes sense for non-void elements
  236. # [12:38] <anne> but void elements cannot be consistently closed by definition
  237. # [12:38] <anne> they're special
  238. # [12:39] <anne> hsivonen, mkay
  239. # [12:39] <Lachy> jgraham, right, which is why I expressed concern over the requirement to use <tbody> in HTML for a polyglot document checker
  240. # [12:39] <hsivonen> anne: what argument did tantek use and where?
  241. # [12:39] <jgraham> Lachy: If they say they want a polyglot document checker, they should get one. After all for a few use cases it makes sense
  242. # [12:40] <jgraham> If they just want a lint tool with a million options that they con use to enforce their prefered coding style that is fine too. But then they should ask for that and not the other thing
  243. # [12:40] <Lachy> jgraham, so it depends if people want a real polyglot document checker, or just one that verifies the syntactic correctness without doing a complete tree comparison
  244. # [12:41] <anne> Julian, I wasn't even replying to you
  245. # [12:41] <anne> -_-
  246. # [12:41] <hsivonen> jgraham: do you expect the Super Friends (as opposed to rubys and Jacques Distler) to actually want a true polyglot checker?
  247. # [12:41] <jgraham> Lachy: You can already verify syntatic correctness simply by revalidating in XHTML mode
  248. # [12:41] <Julian> OK, I need a break from this discussion :-)
  249. # [12:41] <anne> hsivonen, somewhere in the #whatwg IRC archives
  250. # [12:41] <jgraham> hsivonen: I doubt it.
  251. # [12:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: speaking of archives, in the real world markup doesn't become before appearance
  252. # [12:42] <Lachy> jgraham, the request I saw from zeldman was that they want an option in the validator to be able to do it all in one step
  253. # [12:42] <Hixie> hsivonen: indeed
  254. # [12:42] <Hixie> hsivonen: but it should :-)
  255. # [12:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: in the real world, a designer hands you a .psd file with lipsum before there's even content for replacing the lipsum with!
  256. # [12:43] <jgraham> Lachy: Revalidating as XHTML is strictly useless though. You can construct a document that means something entirely different when processed as XHTML and HTML yet is valid in either
  257. # [12:43] <Philip> jgraham: Why does the ability to subvert the validator in such a way make the validator useless?
  258. # [12:44] <hsivonen> Philip: <script><!-- ... --></script> makes subversion accidental
  259. # [12:44] <Lachy> jgraham, I know that's possible. But I'm not the one making the request for the feature. Just trying to analyse the issues with what has been requested and the proposed solutions
  260. # [12:44] <jgraham> Philip: In practice there is afaict no actual desire to serve XHTML
  261. # [12:44] <Philip> Ah, if it's an easy accident then I guess that makes validation less useful
  262. # [12:45] <jgraham> So the whole excercise seems pointless
  263. # [12:48] <jgraham> My (but I guess not hsivonen's) preferred way of approaching this would be to add a large number of optional switches to the validator; e.g. "check attributes are quoted" and then define a "Polyglot Profile" corresponding to various options
  264. # [12:48] <Lachy> jgraham, trying to find a way to address authors needs and desires isn't pointless. People have requested a way to have the validator check additional syntactic requirements with constraints similar to XHTML, and the issue is whether a full polyglot document checker addresses their need adequately, or whether it would have unexpected consequences
  265. # [12:48] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7484] head/@profile holds a white-space separated list of URIs <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0018.html>
  266. # [12:49] <karl> [06:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: speaking of archives, in the real world markup doesn't become before appearance
  267. # [12:49] <jgraham> My "many options" approach would also allow _me_ to check that I didn't accidentially use a trailing slash, for example
  268. # [12:50] <jgraham> Lachy: I haven't understood what the "need" is here apart from in tiny number of cases where people actually want to use XHTML
  269. # [12:51] <karl> yes and no :) indeed the designer hands a psd to be sliced by the Web integrator for icons and images, but most of the time, the web integrator will incorporate this in a CMS which means a mix of programming language, templating languages and autogenerated markup already here.
  270. # [12:52] <jgraham> Lachy: And I'm not sure why the desire to use something that looks a bit like XHTML but isn't actually exists. On the other hand I can see why a desire to quote all attributes exists
  271. # [12:52] <karl> The big issue we have in Web agencies with Web integrators caring for Markup are the CMS tools generating crap markup.
  272. # [12:53] <karl> and even worse the fact that CMS have usually no mechanisms for maintaining or at least warning about quality issues before publishing.
  273. # [12:54] <Lachy> jgraham, the request is here http://www.zeldman.com/superfriends/guide/#validation with some addtional followup in the comments here http://www.zeldman.com/2009/08/31/loving-html5/#comment-47966 (including that one and others in the page)
  274. # [12:54] <pimpbot> Title: HTML5 Super Friends Technical Details (at www.zeldman.com)
  275. # [12:54] <jgraham> On a different topic: am I the only one who doesn't make the correction between the english word "aside" and "website sidebar"? Can someone who does make that connection explain it to me?
  276. # [12:56] <jgraham> Lachy: I read most of that already (I will read it again) and I _still_ don't understand the desire to couple the concept of coding style to the concept of "XHTML Syntax"
  277. # [12:56] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@84.190.179.130) (Quit: gsnedders)
  278. # [12:57] <jgraham> The reasons given for wanting "XHTML Syntax" don't apply to e.g. <img/> vs <img>
  279. # [12:59] <jgraham> (unless you are serving a true polyglot document, in which case you want to know about <tbody> and &nbsp; too)
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  281. # [13:01] <Lachy> jgraham, I get the impression that somehow we may be talking past each other. My initial point was that I didn't think most authors would be interested in knowing about the <tbody> issue, which would be flagged by a polyglot document checker that does tree comparisions
  282. # [13:02] <karl> jgraham: aside for me sounds cognitively a bit like "on the side" (add your French crazy brain), so indeed it is closer of sidebar than textnote or annotation
  283. # [13:03] <gsnedders> à côte de "side"
  284. # [13:06] <Lachy> so it may be that, despite people like Zeldman and Tantek claiming:
  285. # [13:06] <Lachy> "All of the above syntax checking (and more) is currently provided by the W3C Validator when validating XHTML 1.0 DOCTYPE documents served as text/html. We want the option for the same (or better?) level of XHTML syntax checking when validating HTML5 documents as text/html."
  286. # [13:06] <Lachy> They actually only want a more limited XHTML-style syntactic convention checker.
  287. # [13:06] <jgraham> Lachy: So they don't actually want an XHTML Syntax checker at all.
  288. # [13:07] <Lachy> yeah, that's my take on the situation
  289. # [13:08] <jgraham> To be brutally honest it sounds like they want a validator option that they can point to as "HTML-Strict" so they don't have to retract all the stuff they wrote over the past decade about "<img/>" being 'better' than "<img>"
  290. # [13:12] <Lachy> I'm also assuming they don't want scripts and stylesheets checked for true XHTML compatibility either (something which, I believe, is impossible to check in a validator anyway)
  291. # [13:13] <gsnedders> Stylesheets can be
  292. # [13:14] <gsnedders> I can't imagine it being technically simple to implement, though
  293. # [13:17] <Lachy> gsnedders, it would have to be aware of implied HTML elements and be able to catch things like table>tr, and checking for case sensitivity might be a little difficult in cases like matching HTML's <textarea> vs. SVG's <textArea>
  294. # [13:18] <gsnedders> Lachy: None of that is impossible, though
  295. # [13:18] <gsnedders> Lachy: Scripting is impossible because o the halting problem
  296. # [13:18] <Lachy> yeah
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  300. # [13:22] <Lachy> gsnedders, it's still impossible to do anything but issue warnings about a limited subset of things that require manual checking, since you never know if one selector was explicitly written as an HTML specific or XHTML specific rule
  301. # [13:23] <gsnedders> Lachy: You can throw the error that it won't work for both
  302. # [13:23] * hsivonen wonders how to nuke a directory written over NFS using NFS when sudoed rm gives permission denied
  303. # [13:23] <hsivonen> NFS should leave permission enforcement to client computer, right?
  304. # [13:23] <Hixie> "should"?
  305. # [13:23] <gsnedders> Depends on the server. :)
  306. # [13:24] <Lachy> anyway, it doesn't matter too much. Thankfully, I'm yet to see an actual request for such a feature, and we can always reject the idea if and when it ever comes up for real
  307. # [13:24] <gsnedders> So we now reject ideas without even looking at why the person is asking for it?
  308. # [13:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: isn't NFS a dumb daemon that just reflects the permissions and contents to client without enforcing anything other than what IP gets to connect in the first place?
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  311. # [13:27] <Lachy> hsivonen, my guess is that it's the server that has to enforce the permissions, not the client, since otherwise an evil client could do whatever they wanted
  312. # [13:28] <Lachy> NFS presumably just informs the client about what permissions will be enforced
  313. # [13:28] <hsivonen> Lachy: I thought NFS only makes sense on wired networks and evil client can do bad stuff
  314. # [13:28] <hsivonen> Lachy: dunno how NFS security works in the world of MAC address cloning at universities, though
  315. # [13:28] <hsivonen> maybe I'm wrong
  316. # [13:29] <hsivonen> but every guide I've ever read has warned against turning on NFS without a firewall between it and the wider Internet
  317. # [13:29] <Lachy> I'm not sure. I don't use NFS, and only have experience with using SMB and AFP
  318. # [13:29] <hsivonen> SMB and AFP are radically different from NFS
  319. # [13:29] <Lachy> yeah, I know
  320. # [13:30] <Lachy> but they're the only file system protocols I've used on a network
  321. # [13:32] <Hixie> hsivonen: if so, that sounds like a security nightmare
  322. # [13:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: at least my NFS server doesn't ask for any kind of credential beyond the client computer's IP address
  323. # [13:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: there isn't even anything I could configure beyond that
  324. # [13:35] <Hixie> scary
  325. # [13:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: whereas the SMB and AFP configs require usernames and passwords
  326. # [13:35] <Hixie> that puts a faith in the network that i have never been able to have
  327. # [13:36] <hsivonen> I don't think it's much different to put faith in you router box not routing NFS to the outside compared to putting faith in your NAS box to enforce passwords
  328. # [13:37] <hsivonen> in any case, I'm not normally using NFS, because AFP works better
  329. # [13:37] <hsivonen> but due to these radical differences, I can't nuke NFS-created files over AFP even to the extent I could start attempting to nuke them over NFS
  330. # [13:39] <Hixie> well my router box accepts untrusted connections
  331. # [13:40] <Hixie> as do most people's, if they ever host a party, even if they have encrypted wifi
  332. # [13:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: NFS and wifi don't go well together even in an office that isn't used for hosting parties
  333. # [13:42] <hsivonen> but I do wonder how universities deal with passers-by plugging in MAC-cloned devices to Ethernet
  334. # [13:45] <hsivonen> maybe universities have a stonger authentication of the connecting *computers* than my NAS
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  336. # [13:48] <Dashiva> My university solves it by using SMB
  337. # [13:49] <Hixie> hsivonen: i have to assume that is the case. I doubt corporations would use NFS as widely as they do if that was not the case.
  338. # [13:49] <Dashiva> I don't know enough about the protocol to say if it's a solution or not
  339. # [13:49] <Hixie> i think kerberos authentication is used usually for NFS in WAN environments.
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  344. # [14:00] * Philip isn't allowed root access on his work computer, because (it is claimed) of security issues with NFS
  345. # [14:00] <Philip> (which would apparently be fixed by upgrading to a newer version of NFS)
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  349. # [14:01] <Philip> (Wireless is on a separate, less-trusted VLAN)
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  354. # [14:31] <markjames> Hi folks. I'm looking into the correct way to mark up a quotation, attributing it to the name of the person. In HTML4 it seems you can do it as per http://gist.github.com/180269, but HTML5 prohibits citing names.
  355. # [14:31] <pimpbot> Title: Gist - GitHub (at gist.github.com)
  356. # [14:32] <markjames> Is this the right place to enquire as to the reasoning behind this, and what the suggested replacement is?
  357. # [14:32] <anne> there's no suggested replacement
  358. # [14:32] <Hixie> markjames: this is the recommended markup:
  359. # [14:33] <Hixie> <p>"Hello, world!" said James.</p>
  360. # [14:33] <Hixie> markjames: or: <blockquote><p>Hello, world!</blockquote><p>&mdash; James</p>
  361. # [14:36] <markjames> k, cheers. Whats the reason for specifically requiring a body of work? Can't see that most devs would see a differentiation between citing a body of work and citing a person.
  362. # [14:36] <Hixie> names of works typically get italicised
  363. # [14:36] <Hixie> names of people don't
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  376. # [15:19] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7484] head/@profile holds a white-space separated list of URIs <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0020.html> ** [Bug 7483] The footer element desperately needs to be able to contain sectioning content descendents, most importantly "nav". Under the current specification, I will just end up using div class="footer" so my footers can contain sectioning content. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ht
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  391. # [16:49] <pimpbot> changes: annevk: spelling <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0002.html> ** "annevk: add previous versions including one that was missing" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0001.html>
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  398. # [17:10] <MikeSmith> http://crypto.stanford.edu/seclab/
  399. # [17:10] <pimpbot> Title: Stanford Security Laboratory (at crypto.stanford.edu)
  400. # [17:12] <MikeSmith> http://blog.sidstamm.com/
  401. # [17:12] <pimpbot> Title: extreme geekboy (at blog.sidstamm.com)
  402. # [17:13] <MikeSmith> http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~sstamm/
  403. # [17:13] <pimpbot> Title: Sid Stamm (at www.cs.indiana.edu)
  404. # [17:13] <MikeSmith> http://www.indiana.edu/~phishing/
  405. # [17:13] <pimpbot> Title: Stop-Phishing.com (Indiana University) (at www.indiana.edu)
  406. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> http://www2.parc.com/csl/members/mjakobss/markus-jakobsson.htm
  407. # [17:15] <pimpbot> Title: Untitled Document (at www2.parc.com)
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  409. # [17:19] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7491] New: Unspecified: quotation punctuation in the blockquote element <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0028.html> ** [Bug 7483] The footer element desperately needs to be able to contain sectioning content descendents, most importantly "nav". Under the current specification, I will just end up using div class="footer" so my footers can contain sectioning content. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/
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  414. # [17:50] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7491] Unspecified: quotation punctuation in the blockquote element <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0029.html>
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  418. # [17:58] <mjs> hi everyone!
  419. # [17:58] * DanC tends to a plumbing situation... hopes MikeSmith can cover for me this week
  420. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> DanC: yeah, I'm hear
  421. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> *here
  422. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> mjs: hej
  423. # [17:59] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  424. # [17:59] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  425. # [18:00] <Eliot_Graff> Microsoft is Eliot Graff
  426. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
  427. # [18:00] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  428. # [18:00] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  429. # [18:00] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-html-wg-irc
  430. # [18:00] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  431. # [18:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  432. # [18:00] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
  433. # [18:00] <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
  434. # [18:00] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
  435. # [18:00] <trackbot> Date: 03 September 2009
  436. # [18:02] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  437. # [18:02] <ChrisWilson> zakim, microsoft.a is me
  438. # [18:02] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
  439. # [18:02] * Quits: kliehm (kliehm@217.86.146.74) (Connection reset by peer)
  440. # [18:02] <Eliot_Graff> zakim, microsoft is eliot graff
  441. # [18:02] <Zakim> I don't understand 'microsoft is eliot graff', Eliot_Graff
  442. # [18:03] <Eliot_Graff> zakim, microsoft is Eliot_Graff
  443. # [18:03] <Zakim> +Eliot_Graff; got it
  444. # [18:03] * Joins: rob (rob@98.207.253.61)
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  446. # [18:04] * rubys1 is now known as rubys
  447. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P11
  448. # [18:04] <rob> Zakim, P11 is me
  449. # [18:04] <Zakim> sorry, rob, I do not recognize a party named 'P11'
  450. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  451. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Jerry
  452. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Sam
  453. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Julian
  454. # [18:05] <paulc> Zakim, +[Microsoft] is me
  455. # [18:05] <Zakim> sorry, paulc, I do not recognize a party named '+[Microsoft]'
  456. # [18:05] <rubys> Zakim, [Microsoft] is paulc
  457. # [18:05] <Zakim> +paulc; got it
  458. # [18:05] <paulc> Zakim, microsoft is me
  459. # [18:05] <Zakim> sorry, paulc, I do not recognize a party named 'microsoft'
  460. # [18:06] * rubys notes "+" means "joined"
  461. # [18:06] <paulc> Zakim, Microsoft is me
  462. # [18:06] <Zakim> sorry, paulc, I do not recognize a party named 'Microsoft'
  463. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.218.340.aaaa
  464. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Matt
  465. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
  466. # [18:06] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  467. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Mike
  468. # [18:06] <rob> Zakim, ??P11 is me
  469. # [18:06] <Zakim> +rob; got it
  470. # [18:06] * Joins: maddiin (mc@87.185.219.115)
  471. # [18:06] <Zakim> +mjs
  472. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> Zakim, Mike is me
  473. # [18:06] <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
  474. # [18:06] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30)
  475. # [18:07] * MichaelC zakim, call cooper-mit
  476. # [18:07] * Zakim ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
  477. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Cooper
  478. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> chair: Maciej
  479. # [18:07] <annevk> Zakim, passcode?
  480. # [18:07] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), annevk
  481. # [18:07] <rubys> zakim, who is on the call
  482. # [18:07] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', rubys
  483. # [18:07] <rubys> zakim, who is on the phone?
  484. # [18:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see Eliot_Graff, ChrisWilson, rob, paulc, Jerry, Julian, Sam, +1.218.340.aaaa, Matt, MikeSmith, mjs, Cooper
  485. # [18:08] <rubys> zakim, pick a scribe
  486. # [18:08] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Matt
  487. # [18:08] <Zakim> +??P19
  488. # [18:08] <annevk> Zakim, ??P19 is me
  489. # [18:08] <Zakim> +annevk; got it
  490. # [18:08] <rubys> who is on from the 218 area code?
  491. # [18:08] <mjs> Matt, are you ok with scribing?
  492. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Rich
  493. # [18:09] <Zakim> +cyns
  494. # [18:10] <mjs> zakim, pick a scribe
  495. # [18:10] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose MikeSmith
  496. # [18:10] * Joins: kliehm (kliehm@217.86.146.74)
  497. # [18:11] <mjs> Lachy, are you around on IRC?
  498. # [18:11] <Lachy> mjs, yes
  499. # [18:11] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  500. # [18:12] * Joins: Stevef (chatzilla@82.44.69.8)
  501. # [18:12] <adrianba> zakim, [Microsoft] is adrianba
  502. # [18:12] <Zakim> +adrianba; got it
  503. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> OK, ready
  504. # [18:12] <mjs> Lachy, can you give me a due date for the about: URI registration action?
  505. # [18:12] <Zakim> +kliehm
  506. # [18:12] <Lachy> do you want a due date for completion, or just a due date for the next status update?
  507. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JulSep/0038.html
  508. # [18:12] <pimpbot> Title: Agenda for HTML WG telcon 2009-08-20 - Accessibility TF, HTML5 Test Suite, etc from Maciej Stachowiak on 2009-09-02 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from July to September 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  509. # [18:12] <rubys> who is on from the 218 area code?
  510. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> Topic: review of action items
  511. # [18:13] * Joins: masinter (user@76.102.104.162)
  512. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith
  513. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> action-86?
  514. # [18:13] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-86
  515. # [18:13] <trackbot> ACTION-86 -- Julian Reschke to review Thomas Broyer's IETF ID to see if we can postpone ISSUE-13 -- due 2009-08-27 -- OPEN
  516. # [18:13] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/86
  517. # [18:13] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-86 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  518. # [18:13] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
  519. # [18:13] * kliehm zakim, mute me
  520. # [18:13] * Zakim kliehm should now be muted
  521. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> mjs: propose to close this. any objections?
  522. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> close action-86
  523. # [18:14] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-86.
  524. # [18:14] <trackbot> ACTION-86 Review Thomas Broyer's IETF ID to see if we can postpone ISSUE-13 closed
  525. # [18:14] <Zakim> +Masinter
  526. # [18:14] <mjs> Lachy, due date for next update is fine
  527. # [18:14] <Lachy> mjs, 2 weeks from now
  528. # [18:14] <rubys> close issue-31
  529. # [18:14] * trackbot attempting to close ISSUE-31.
  530. # [18:14] <trackbot> ISSUE-31 What to do when a reasonable text equivalent is unknown/unavailable? closed
  531. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> action-103?
  532. # [18:14] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-103
  533. # [18:14] <trackbot> ACTION-103 -- Julian Reschke to register about: URI scheme -- due 2009-09-03 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  534. # [18:14] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/103
  535. # [18:14] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-103 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  536. # [18:14] <Zakim> +Radhika_Roy
  537. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> mjs: Lachy agreed to do this within two weeks
  538. # [18:14] * kliehm zakim, who is on the phone?
  539. # [18:14] * Zakim sees on the phone: Eliot_Graff, ChrisWilson, rob, paulc, Jerry, Julian, Sam, +1.218.340.aaaa, Matt, MikeSmith, mjs, Cooper, annevk, Rich, cyns, adrianba, kliehm (muted), Masinter,
  540. # [18:14] * Zakim ... Radhika_Roy
  541. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> mjs: action 103 should be re-assigned to Lachy
  542. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> action-140?
  543. # [18:15] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-140
  544. # [18:15] <trackbot> ACTION-140 -- Cynthia Shelly to follow up with sean hayes -- due 2009-09-03 -- OPEN
  545. # [18:15] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/140
  546. # [18:15] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-140 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  547. # [18:15] * rubys has updated 103 with new owner and date
  548. # [18:15] <Laura> Zakim, aaaa is me
  549. # [18:15] <Zakim> +Laura; got it
  550. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> cythia: OK to close this, have discussed with Sean Hayes
  551. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> close action-140
  552. # [18:16] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-140.
  553. # [18:16] <trackbot> ACTION-140 Follow up with sean hayes closed
  554. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> Topic: Review of issues proposed to be closed
  555. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  556. # [18:16] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  557. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> issue-48?
  558. # [18:16] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-48
  559. # [18:16] <trackbot> ISSUE-48 -- Should user-agents generate quotes for the q element -- RAISED
  560. # [18:16] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/48
  561. # [18:16] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-48 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  562. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> mjs: bugs have been filed on this, so believe this has been closed
  563. # [18:17] <rubys> should issue 9 be closed?
  564. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> s/has been/can be/
  565. # [18:17] <paulc> q+
  566. # [18:17] * Zakim sees paulc on the speaker queue
  567. # [18:17] <mjs> rubys, no, issue 9 should not be closed yet, as we have a separate interest in it from SYMM WG
  568. # [18:17] * Joins: LHSilli (chatzilla@84.208.110.159)
  569. # [18:17] <rubys> ack
  570. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> paulc: so what's the actual resolution on issue 48?
  571. # [18:18] <kliehm> We agreed last week on closing Issue-48 since bug reports are filed.
  572. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> mjs: the resolution is that UAs do generate quotes
  573. # [18:18] <rubys> ack paulc
  574. # [18:18] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  575. # [18:19] <annevk> (which agrees with what the issue asks for)
  576. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> close issue-48
  577. # [18:19] * trackbot attempting to close ISSUE-48.
  578. # [18:19] <trackbot> ISSUE-48 Should user-agents generate quotes for the q element closed
  579. # [18:19] * annevk should we log these with RESOLUTION: as well?
  580. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> issue-51?
  581. # [18:19] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-51
  582. # [18:19] <trackbot> ISSUE-51 -- WAI-ARIA dependency on Role Attribute Module, which takes Curie values. problem for implementations? -- RAISED
  583. # [18:19] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/51
  584. # [18:19] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-51 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  585. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> mjs: this is no longer an issue with the current ARIA draft
  586. # [18:19] <hober> IIRC ARIA's role="" isn't the same attribute as the Role Attribute Module's role=""
  587. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> mjs: any objections?
  588. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> annevk: the current ARIA draft does reference the role attribute
  589. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> mjs: but as defined there, does not include CURIEs
  590. # [18:20] <mjs> hober, yes, I believe that is true now
  591. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> close issue-51
  592. # [18:20] * trackbot attempting to close ISSUE-51.
  593. # [18:20] <trackbot> ISSUE-51 WAI-ARIA dependency on Role Attribute Module, which takes Curie values. problem for implementations? closed
  594. # [18:20] * annevk thinks WAI-ARIA should not reference it then, but that's orthogonal
  595. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> issue-54?
  596. # [18:21] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-54
  597. # [18:21] <trackbot> ISSUE-54 -- tools that can't generate <!DOCTYPE html> -- RAISED
  598. # [18:21] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/54
  599. # [18:21] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-54 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  600. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> mjs: additional doctype form that uses "about:" URI scheme was added.. so we need to register that scheme, and Lachy will be doing that
  601. # [18:22] <Zakim> -Masinter
  602. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> mjs: any objections to closing this?
  603. # [18:22] <annevk> Zakim, who is making noise?
  604. # [18:22] * Quits: masinter (user@76.102.104.162) (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs))
  605. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute Mike
  606. # [18:22] <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
  607. # [18:22] <Zakim> annevk, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
  608. # [18:22] * annevk Zakim is useless
  609. # [18:23] <mjs> issue-60?
  610. # [18:23] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-60
  611. # [18:23] <trackbot> ISSUE-60 -- Reuse of 1999 XHTML namespace is potentially misleading/wrong -- RAISED
  612. # [18:23] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/60
  613. # [18:23] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-60 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  614. # [18:23] * Julian famous last words from Mike
  615. # [18:23] * MikeSmith :)
  616. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> close issue-51
  617. # [18:23] * trackbot attempting to close ISSUE-51.
  618. # [18:23] <trackbot> ISSUE-51 WAI-ARIA dependency on Role Attribute Module, which takes Curie values. problem for implementations? closed
  619. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> close issue-54
  620. # [18:23] * trackbot attempting to close ISSUE-54.
  621. # [18:23] <trackbot> ISSUE-54 tools that can't generate <!DOCTYPE html> closed
  622. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> issue-60?
  623. # [18:23] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-60
  624. # [18:23] <trackbot> ISSUE-60 -- Reuse of 1999 XHTML namespace is potentially misleading/wrong -- RAISED
  625. # [18:23] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/60
  626. # [18:23] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-60 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  627. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> mjs: [issue 60 overtaken by events] any objections to closing?
  628. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> close issue-60
  629. # [18:24] * trackbot attempting to close ISSUE-60.
  630. # [18:24] <trackbot> ISSUE-60 Reuse of 1999 XHTML namespace is potentially misleading/wrong closed
  631. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> issue-61?
  632. # [18:24] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-61
  633. # [18:24] <trackbot> ISSUE-61 -- Conformance depends on author's intent -- RAISED
  634. # [18:24] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/61
  635. # [18:24] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-61 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  636. # [18:24] * Julian thinks we should push that to next week as DanC is not here
  637. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> mjs: iirc, basic issue is that some conf. requirements in spec are subjective and not machine-checkable
  638. # [18:25] <DanC> no, I'm out of the critical path for issue 61
  639. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> ... e.g., "all elements and attributes must be used in conformance with their requirements"
  640. # [18:25] <DanC> I said so in mail to public-html and in last week's telcon.
  641. # [18:25] <paulc> Is there an agreed upon set of "author's intents"?
  642. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: this is separate from the doc I'm working on
  643. # [18:26] <hober> Hasn't this always been the case though? <h1>something that the author just wanted to be big</h1> was never acceptable...
  644. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> s/their requirements/their defined semantics/
  645. # [18:26] <DanC> hober, HTML 4 didn't make that non-conforming.
  646. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> mjs: any questions or comments or objections?
  647. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> paulc: was the purpose to collect requirements based on what the author's intent was?
  648. # [18:27] <hober> DanC: sounds like a bug in HTML 4 then...
  649. # [18:27] <Laura> Agree with Julian. Think we should push that to next week as DanC is not here.
  650. # [18:27] <DanC> push what back? not issue 61 (for the Nth time)
  651. # [18:27] <Julian> DanC, so do you want it closed?
  652. # [18:27] <mjs> Laura, DanC is here on IRC and he doesn't think it needs to be pushed back
  653. # [18:27] <DanC> yes.
  654. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> mjs: specific concern is whether we should have conformance requirements of this kind at all, since they are subjective
  655. # [18:27] <Laura> okay
  656. # [18:28] <MikeSmith> close issue-61
  657. # [18:28] * trackbot attempting to close ISSUE-61.
  658. # [18:28] <trackbot> ISSUE-61 Conformance depends on author's intent closed
  659. # [18:28] <MikeSmith> issue-64?
  660. # [18:28] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-64
  661. # [18:28] <trackbot> ISSUE-64 -- Web Sockets API: in scope? requirement? coordination -- RAISED
  662. # [18:28] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/64
  663. # [18:28] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-64 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  664. # [18:28] <Julian> q+
  665. # [18:28] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  666. # [18:28] <MikeSmith> mjs: this goes back to when Web Sockets API and protocol were in the HTML5 spec
  667. # [18:29] * Joins: aroben_ (aroben@71.58.77.15)
  668. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> ... but now the API spec is in the W3C WebApps group, and the protocol spec is at the IETF as in Internet Draft
  669. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> ... so this issue is now obsolete
  670. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> mjs: any objections to closing?
  671. # [18:29] <paulc> Does the current charter reflect this change in venue for this work?
  672. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> Julian: currently is not an IETF WG working on this
  673. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> ... no HyBi WG exists yet
  674. # [18:30] <DanC> well, let's record a decision that sockets is out of scope for HTML 5, let's not just withdraw the issue (cuz that would leave open the option for the editor to put it back in)
  675. # [18:30] <paulc> +1
  676. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> ... at this point, it is just an individual submission, and how/where this Internet Draft will ever lead to RFC is unclear
  677. # [18:30] * Quits: aroben (aroben@71.58.77.15) (Ping timeout)
  678. # [18:31] <Julian> +1 to DanC's proposal
  679. # [18:31] <MikeSmith> mjs: Julian, all true, but at least for HTML WG at this point, it is not an issue
  680. # [18:31] <hober> I didn't think the WG could make decisions synchronously
  681. # [18:31] <jgraham> I thought decisions had to be made by email?
  682. # [18:31] <ChrisWilson> "The WG must enable asynchronous participation"
  683. # [18:31] <mjs> hober, I just said on the phone that to record a decision, we should post it by email and give a week for lazy consensus
  684. # [18:31] <DanC> the proposal to close this issue has been in email for a couple weeks. if my take on it is considered non-trivially different, we can re-start the clock
  685. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> mjs: so, everybody OK with announcing on public-html that we plan to close this, give 2 weeks to object?
  686. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> paulc: let's do that
  687. # [18:32] * rubys suggests doing it on announce
  688. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> mjs: so in general, convention can be starting subject of "requst for lazy consensus" messages on the list with some particular string
  689. # [18:34] * Joins: aroben__ (aroben@71.58.77.15)
  690. # [18:34] * Quits: aroben_ (aroben@71.58.77.15) (Connection reset by peer)
  691. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> everybody in the group is also on the announce list, automatically.. it's populated from the DB
  692. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> issue-75?
  693. # [18:34] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-75
  694. # [18:34] <trackbot> ISSUE-75 -- Microsoft Review of HTML5 -- CLOSED
  695. # [18:34] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/75
  696. # [18:34] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-75 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  697. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> mjs: originally raised by Sam, we have since gotten lots of great feedback
  698. # [18:35] <DanC> (re issue-61 on author's intent, "want" is a little strong; I'd abstain if this WG did that sort of thing. I withdrew my objection in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1118.html )
  699. # [18:35] <pimpbot> Title: Re: ISSUE-61: conformance-language - suggest closing on 2009-09-03 from Dan Connolly on 2009-08-21 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  700. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> mjs: anybody think this should not have been closed?
  701. # [18:35] <paulc> Re: Recommendation: close ISSUE-54; file now post-Last-Call issue for about: scheme registration.
  702. # [18:35] <Zakim> -Rich
  703. # [18:35] * Quits: pimpbot (pimpbot@80.68.92.65) (Client exited)
  704. # [18:36] * Joins: JasonU (836b004a@128.30.52.43)
  705. # [18:36] <MikeSmith> paulc: why would we not do the scheme registration while we are in LC (instead of after)?
  706. # [18:37] <MikeSmith> mjs: we would not want to block LC if IETF mechanics are not in place by the time we need to transition
  707. # [18:37] <MikeSmith> paulc: OK, so it's about finalization of the scheme registration
  708. # [18:37] <annevk> paulc, not sure if I misunderstood you just now on the phone, but maybe it helps if I tell you that the scheme is called "about"
  709. # [18:37] <MikeSmith> mjs: any comments about the other issues we have proposed to close or closed?
  710. # [18:38] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  711. # [18:38] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  712. # [18:38] <MikeSmith> cynthia: perhaps we need a bug [or issue] for captioning, specifically
  713. # [18:38] <MikeSmith> mjs: we should have a specific issue for video accessibility, if we don't already
  714. # [18:39] <annevk> issue-9?
  715. # [18:39] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-9
  716. # [18:39] <trackbot> ISSUE-9 -- how synchronization works for <video> is unclear -- RAISED
  717. # [18:39] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/9
  718. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> mjs: I will make sure that one gets filed, if there is not one already
  719. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> ... we need a specific issue for it
  720. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> ... I will check after the call
  721. # [18:39] <DanC> +1 separate issue for video captioning
  722. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> any other questions about issues under agenda item #2?
  723. # [18:39] * annevk doesn't think there's an issue open on captioning
  724. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> Topic: Discuss Accessibility Task Force
  725. # [18:40] <paulc> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html-task-force
  726. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> mjs: chairs will be together face-to-face tomorrow, and this can be among what we discuss
  727. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> mjs: anybody have comments to make about this on the call today?
  728. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> mjs: not seeing any comments, propose we move to next agenda item
  729. # [18:42] <paulc> E-mail discussion takes place on the html mailing list [html archives]. Please add the prefix "[a11y]" to your messages to separate threads from other topics on the list.
  730. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> paulc: I put in a link to the draft proposal ...
  731. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> paulc: why would there be a problem with participation if all discussion takes place on the public-html mailing list anyway?
  732. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> cynthia: I don't know that we have consensus [in PFWG] that we want to do discussion on public-html instead of a separate mailing list
  733. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> paulc: discussion in the past about opt-in vs. opt-out?
  734. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> mjs: opt-in
  735. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> mjs: question is, if some approval is required, or if anybody can join
  736. # [18:45] <MikeSmith> paulc: in my experience, having a separate list helps to keep a task-force focused on its work
  737. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> mjs: yeah, there are definite advantages to having a separate list
  738. # [18:46] <paulc> Chairs will discuss this more on Friday
  739. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> paulc: OK, agree that this is something the chairs need to discuss tomorrow
  740. # [18:47] <MikeSmith> cythia: 7am US/West PFWG meeting tomorrow, will get you some info after that
  741. # [18:47] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  742. # [18:47] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  743. # [18:47] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  744. # [18:47] <MikeSmith> Topic: Starting the HTML5 Test Suite and possible Testing Task Force
  745. # [18:47] <kliehm> The question in PFWG was if members would be required to join HTML WG in order to wave patent rights, but the chairs are looking into a solution.
  746. # [18:47] * MikeSmith wonders if shepazu can comment about this issue during the call
  747. # [18:48] <MikeSmith> mjs: exit criteria requires that we have two interoperable implementations of each feature in the spec, and test suite to check whether we have interoperable implementations
  748. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> ... so we will need to do work to build the test suite, and need people to do it
  749. # [18:49] <JasonU> Actually, I'm here
  750. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> ... some indication that we have people from Microsoft who can contribute to this
  751. # [18:49] <DanC> note http://esw.w3.org/topic/HtmlTestMaterials (which I just happened to be browsing for other reasons)
  752. # [18:50] <paulc> here is an example of a W3C test suite built by a TF of a WG: http://www.w3.org/XML/Query/test-suite/
  753. # [18:50] <MikeSmith> JasonU: I'm interested in getting a cross-vendor task force together
  754. # [18:50] <MikeSmith> ... versioning system, whether we wanted to adopt the CSS naming system for tests
  755. # [18:50] <paulc> q+
  756. # [18:50] * Zakim sees Julian, paulc on the speaker queue
  757. # [18:50] <Julian> q-
  758. # [18:50] <mjs> ack
  759. # [18:50] * Zakim sees paulc on the speaker queue
  760. # [18:51] <mjs> ack
  761. # [18:51] <mjs> ack paulc
  762. # [18:51] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  763. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> ... and get other decisions made about [test infrastructure] in addition to just the writing of the actual tests
  764. # [18:51] * Julian do not recall why I was on the queue
  765. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> paulc: see the link above for XQuery test suite
  766. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> ... it worked really well, separately off the work
  767. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> ... we have a "Convener" for that TF
  768. # [18:52] <kliehm> A test suite would be great to test mapping of elements to MSAA, too.
  769. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> ... who would report back to the WG regularly
  770. # [18:52] <DanC> anybody know where gsnedders's number syntax tests went? the link from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/0650.html seems to be hosed
  771. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> ... that test suite had over 15,000 tests
  772. # [18:53] <MikeSmith> paulc: lots of decisions to be made around, e.g., if/how people can submit their results
  773. # [18:53] <JasonU> I suspect that a full HTML5 per-feature suite would be on-par with this 15k
  774. # [18:53] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  775. # [18:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  776. # [18:53] <MikeSmith> paulc: if you abstract from that page, I think it can help you see lots of the important issues you'll need to deal with
  777. # [18:53] <MikeSmith> mjs: recommend that next step should be e-mail discussion
  778. # [18:54] <MikeSmith> ... I'm sure there are lots of people on the list who are very interested in testing
  779. # [18:54] <MikeSmith> ... would be best to get input from the list on the general parameters of what the test suite would be like, and get volunteers
  780. # [18:54] <MikeSmith> JasonU: I would be happy to put together an e-mail message to the list to help get this started
  781. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> mjs: so that's the end of the agenda we had for today
  782. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> mjs: anything else we need to discuss today?
  783. # [18:55] <paulc> Great job to the Chair!
  784. # [18:55] <rubys> good job Maciej!
  785. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> mjs: or any comments at all?
  786. # [18:55] <mjs> *blush*
  787. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
  788. # [18:55] <Zakim> MikeSmith should no longer be muted
  789. # [18:56] <Zakim> -cyns
  790. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> [adjourned]
  791. # [18:56] <annevk> bye
  792. # [18:56] <Zakim> -Jerry
  793. # [18:56] <Zakim> -Julian
  794. # [18:56] <Zakim> -Cooper
  795. # [18:56] <Zakim> -Sam
  796. # [18:56] <Zakim> -Eliot_Graff
  797. # [18:56] * Quits: Stevef (chatzilla@82.44.69.8) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5/20090624025744])
  798. # [18:56] <Zakim> -annevk
  799. # [18:56] <Zakim> -Matt
  800. # [18:56] <JasonU> Nice job, thank you!
  801. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  802. # [18:56] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  803. # [18:56] <Zakim> -paulc
  804. # [18:56] <Zakim> -kliehm
  805. # [18:56] * Quits: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@131.107.0.75) (Quit: If you think nobody cares, try missing a few payments)
  806. # [18:56] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
  807. # [18:56] <Zakim> -mjs
  808. # [18:56] <Zakim> -Laura
  809. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
  810. # [18:56] <Zakim> -adrianba
  811. # [18:56] <Zakim> MikeSmith is being disconnected
  812. # [18:56] <Zakim> -MikeSmith
  813. # [18:56] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  814. # [18:56] <Zakim> -rob
  815. # [18:56] * Quits: rob (rob@98.207.253.61) (Quit: rob)
  816. # [18:56] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217) (Quit: Laura)
  817. # [18:56] <Zakim> -Radhika_Roy
  818. # [18:56] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  819. # [18:56] <Zakim> Attendees were ChrisWilson, Eliot_Graff, Jerry, Sam, Julian, paulc, +1.218.340.aaaa, Matt, rob, mjs, MikeSmith, Cooper, annevk, Rich, cyns, adrianba, kliehm, Masinter, Radhika_Roy,
  820. # [18:57] <Zakim> ... Laura, [Microsoft]
  821. # [18:57] <MikeSmith> if anybody has corrections they want to make to the minutes, please do them with s// within the next 15 minutes.
  822. # [18:58] * Quits: kliehm (kliehm@217.86.146.74) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.2/20090729225027])
  823. # [18:58] <JasonU> Mike - I'm JasonU@microsoft.com if you want to get in touch with me directly
  824. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> JasonU, OK -- thanks
  825. # [18:59] <annevk> and here I thought Jason was from Apple :)
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  827. # [19:00] <JasonU> Sorry, I'm more of a Zune guy. ;-)
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  829. # [19:05] <annevk> heh
  830. # [19:07] * Quits: adrianba (adrianba@131.107.0.85) (Ping timeout)
  831. # [19:16] <DanC> anybody know where gsnedders's number syntax tests went? the link from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/0650.html seems to be hosed
  832. # [19:16] <pimpbot> Title: Implementation + Test Cases Available For Numbers Subsection of Common Microsyntaxes from Geoffrey Sneddon on 2007-07-12 (public-html@w3.org from July 2007) (at lists.w3.org)
  833. # [19:18] <Philip> DanC: http://hg.gsnedders.com/php-html-5-direct/file/tip/tests/numbersTest
  834. # [19:18] <pimpbot> Title: php-html-5-direct: tests/numbersTest@8c27462f5f41 (at hg.gsnedders.com)
  835. # [19:19] <Philip> DanC: (linked from http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Testsuite)
  836. # [19:19] <pimpbot> Title: Testsuite - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org)
  837. # [19:19] <Philip> DanC: (though actually I found it via Google instead)
  838. # [19:19] <DanC> tx, Philip
  839. # [19:19] <DanC> I tried googling and such. my skillz are rusty, I guess
  840. # [19:20] <Philip> http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=php-html-5-direct
  841. # [19:20] <pimpbot> Title: php-html-5-direct - Google Search (at www.google.co.uk)
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The end :)