/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-09-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Sep 09 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:05] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7547] New: on .drawImage() negative widths or heights should flip/mirror the image. There's no easy way of fliping images in canvas <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0102.html>
  4. # [00:07] <Philip> Isn't .scale(-1, 1) an easy of flipping?
  5. # [00:07] <Philip> (NB: I am aware that this is the wrong medium in which to respond to a bug title)
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  11. # [00:35] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Update publication bits (whatwg r3770) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0026.html>
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  37. # [04:06] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7508] <dialog> needs a way to add non-speech related information <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0103.html>
  38. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> issue: meta/@name=keywords should be specified (and made conforming)
  39. # [04:20] * trackbot noticed an ISSUE. Trying to create it.
  40. # [04:20] <trackbot> Created ISSUE-79 - Meta/@name=keywords should be specified (and made conforming) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/79/edit .
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  43. # [04:36] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 7546] "HTML 5" Editor's draft misnamed and suboptimal for HTML content authors unless refactored into HTML (main) and DOM API (appendix)." (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0114.html> ** [Bug 7543] Consensus on ietf-http-wg was that repetition of relations is meaningless and we should rather use numbering (e.g. "up2"), names (e.g. "great-grandparent") or an attribute (e.g. level="3"
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  45. # [05:00] <MikeSmith> issue-60?
  46. # [05:00] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-60
  47. # [05:00] <trackbot> ISSUE-60 -- Reuse of 1999 XHTML namespace is potentially misleading/wrong -- CLOSED
  48. # [05:00] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/60
  49. # [05:00] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-60 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  50. # [05:06] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7547] on .drawImage() negative widths or heights should flip/mirror the image. There's no easy way of fliping images in canvas <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0115.html>
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  52. # [05:29] <MikeSmith> http://code.google.com/p/pywebsocket/
  53. # [05:29] <pimpbot> Title: pywebsocket - Project Hosting on Google Code (at code.google.com)
  54. # [05:36] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7546] "HTML 5" Editor's draft misnamed and suboptimal for HTML content authors unless refactored into HTML (main) and DOM API (appendix). <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0116.html>
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  58. # [06:06] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7059] Forking XPath <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0117.html>
  59. # [06:36] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7062] replace terms "CDATA element" and "RCDATA element" with... something better <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0118.html>
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  62. # [07:37] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Make the accesskey attribute work when tabindex is set also. (bug 7190) (whatwg r3771) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0027.html>
  63. # [07:37] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7190] Since all "specially focusable" elements have an activation behaviour, the Action of accesskey-laden commands is to _not_ focus them if they are focusable. Instead, such elements should probably always be focused if focusable, then be activated. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0119.html>
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  70. # [08:37] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 7211] define "positive integer" and use it consistently, instead of "non-negative integer greater than zero"" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0121.html>
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  73. # [09:07] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Move the character encoding stuff down to the HTML syntax section since we don't want to override XML here. (whatwg r3772) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0028.html>
  74. # [09:07] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7215] character encodings and XML <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0123.html> ** "[Bug 7211] define "positive integer" and use it consistently, instead of "non-negative integer greater than zero"" (3 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0122.html>
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  77. # [10:07] <pimpbot> changes: mike: fixed typo <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0031.html> ** mike: made minor wording and formatting changes to dl and dialog and dt and dd sections <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0030.html> ** hixie: Add a worthless <keygen> example. (whatwg r3773) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0029.html>
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  80. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> mjs: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-September/022576.html
  81. # [10:35] <pimpbot> Title: [whatwg] A tag for measurements / quantity? (at lists.whatwg.org)
  82. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> Jonas's looks at existing pages to see if people are abusing lists to mark up dialogs
  83. # [10:37] <mjs> neat
  84. # [10:38] <mjs> MikeSmith: I think a possibly more interesting investigation would be to take a random sample of pages using <dl> and see if any are dialogs
  85. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> mjs: I'd expect that would probably end up being like looking for a needle in a haystack
  86. # [10:39] <mjs> MikeSmith: it would probably demonstrate that <dl> is hardly ever used to mark up dialogs, thus the rationale of abuse prevention is dubious
  87. # [10:40] <mjs> I do think <dialog> would be considerably more interesting if in addition to <dt> and <dd> it had some element to represent non-speech events (like Ian's suggested <ds>)
  88. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> mjs: yeah, it certainly seems of very limited usefulness without something like that
  89. # [10:42] <mjs> there also needs to be a way to have auxiliary content (such as a timestamp) before the speaker or after the speech - not sure the hypothetical <ds> element would suit
  90. # [10:43] <Hixie> the spec actually says something about timestamps already
  91. # [10:43] <Hixie> iirc
  92. # [10:44] <mjs> I see, in the <dt> definition
  93. # [10:45] <mjs> AIM logs tend to have timestamps not associated with a specific utterance, I guess another potential use case for <ds>
  94. # [10:45] <Hixie> yeah i definitely think we'd want a <ds> if we do keep <dialog>
  95. # [10:46] <Hixie> maybe we can just drop <dialog> for now though, if people don't think there's enough of a use case
  96. # [10:46] <Hixie> though personally i think jonas' e-mail is a pretty good indication that there's demand for this use case :-)
  97. # [10:46] <Lachy> what does <ds> stand for?
  98. # [10:46] <Hixie> could be <dx> where x is anything but l, t, or d
  99. # [10:46] <Hixie> s could be "stage direction"
  100. # [10:47] <Hixie> or "side comment"
  101. # [10:47] <Hixie> or whatever
  102. # [10:47] <Hixie> doesn't really matter
  103. # [10:47] <mjs> could be da for "annotation" or de for "event"
  104. # [10:47] <mjs> or allow <aside> inside <dialog> ;-)
  105. # [10:47] <Lachy> why not just allow <p> to be used for that?
  106. # [10:47] <Lachy> or <div> or any other element?
  107. # [10:47] <Hixie> mjs: allowing other elements is suboptimal because it would interact poorly in the parser
  108. # [10:48] <Lachy> how so?
  109. # [10:48] <Hixie> <dl> <dt> x <dd> <p> hello </dl>
  110. # [10:48] <Hixie> <dialog> <dt> x <dd> <p> hello </dialog>
  111. # [10:48] <Hixie> what should the parse trees be?
  112. # [10:48] <Lachy> oh, yeah, if you want the new element to implicitly close the <dt> and <dd> elements
  113. # [10:51] <mjs> allowing any element besides <dt> or <dd> would increase the implementation cost
  114. # [10:52] <Hixie> not really
  115. # [10:52] <mjs> (since you can't just reuse the exact implementation of <dd>)
  116. # [10:52] <Hixie> it'd increase the adoption cost
  117. # [10:52] <mjs> er, of <dl>
  118. # [10:52] <Hixie> but not the implementation cost
  119. # [10:52] <Hixie> we'd just make <ds> work in <dl> as well, parser-wise
  120. # [10:52] <Hixie> the parser doesn't actually check to see what the parent is right now when doing <dd>/<dt>
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  122. # [10:55] <mjs> actually dl is much more trivial than I thought
  123. # [10:55] <mjs> I was worried about rendering
  124. # [10:55] <Hixie> dl, or dialog?
  125. # [10:55] <Hixie> they're basically the same, as far as browsers go
  126. # [10:55] <mjs> they are
  127. # [10:56] <mjs> what I meant is, I didn't realize that <dl> is just a vanilla block with block children
  128. # [10:56] <mjs> thus I thought modifying its implementation for <dialog> to support anything but <dt> or <dd> children would be extra work, but I was wrong
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  130. # [10:58] <Hixie> ah
  131. # [10:58] <Hixie> yeah
  132. # [11:01] <Lachy> Hixie, what's the benefit of keeping <dialog> instead of just allowing <dl> to be used?
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  134. # [11:02] <Hixie> the same as the benefit of using <header> instead of <footer>
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  137. # [11:08] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7246] Add examples for <keygen> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0124.html>
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  142. # [11:38] <pimpbot> changes: mike: output a "NEW" indicate on the TOC next to elements that are newly added in HTML5 <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0032.html>
  143. # [11:38] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7548] New: replace <dialog> with advice <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0128.html> ** [Bug 7253] Media elements should provide a "next" property to gaplessly play back another media object after it has finished. This woud allow proper playback of gapless albums and an in-browser implementation of HTTP Adaptive Bitrate Streaming. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0127.ht
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  152. # [12:08] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Merge redundant notes. (whatwg r3778) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0038.html> ** hixie: Example typo. (whatwg r3777) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0037.html> ** mike: output a "CHANGED" indicator on the TOC next to elements whose semantics have changed in HTML5 <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0036.html> ** hixie: grammar fi
  153. # [12:08] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7266] Section states twice in green that other specs can define other event loops, can remove one of those <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0134.html> ** [Bug 7263] this thing really heavy, tried solution: switch to user mode css, after all rendered, return to author mode, scrolling is heavy though,,, try open panel & add info, heavy too.. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009S
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  156. # [12:38] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: cross-ref to the aforementioned example (whatwg r3782) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0042.html> ** hixie: minor readability issue (whatwg r3781) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0041.html> ** hixie: Example wasn't consistent with the rest of itself. (whatwg r3780) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0040.html> ** hixie: Try to redu
  157. # [12:38] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7277] """(This is only a "SHOULD" and not a "MUST" requirement because it has been proven to be impossible.""" There has to be better wording than 'should do the impossible'. Should attempt to verify? Impossible in some cases? JimJJewett@gmail <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0144.html> ** [Bug 7276] "tree order" -- is this a section that can assume formal compsci training, or should a short (4 nodes?) ex
  158. # [12:46] <annevk> does anyone have a pointer to IETF consensus?
  159. # [12:47] <annevk> nm
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  163. # [13:05] <annevk> mjs, I remember you asking about collected implementor feedback; it seems like Opera will continue to provide HTML5 feedback as it has done since circa 2003 or so, on an individual basis; at least for now
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  165. # [13:05] <annevk> fun
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  167. # [13:06] <annevk> mjs, I remember you asking about collected implementor feedback; it seems like Opera will continue to provide HTML5 feedback as it has done since circa 2003 or so, on an individual basis; at least for now
  168. # [13:08] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Add the dummy validation API stuff to <object> since it can be in .elements too. (whatwg r3783) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0043.html>
  169. # [13:08] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7282] add dummy willValidate() and company to object <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0146.html> ** [Bug 7278] numbers seem ignorant of i18n - is <meter>10,3</meter> taken as 10? requirements for number may expand to include, i.e.: U+002C COMMA for European รขโ€žโ€“ <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0145.html>
  170. # [13:12] <mjs> annevk: sounds fine to me
  171. # [13:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: how about killing the <progress> and <meter> textContent stuff already?
  172. # [13:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: it's pretty inevitable that if the feature stays, we end up going down the i18n rathole before CR
  173. # [13:14] <Hixie> how do you mean, the i18n rathole?
  174. # [13:14] <annevk> it's fallback for legacy UAs, doesn't have to be perfect
  175. # [13:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7278 getting REOPENED, escalated to tracker, etc. until you either make it not parse textContent or make the parsing more complex
  176. # [13:14] <pimpbot> 7278: contributor@whatwg.org, P3, RESOLVED WONTFIX, numbers seem ignorant of i18n - is <meter>10,3</meter> taken as 10? requirements for number may expand to include, i.e.: U+002C COMMA for European โ„–
  177. # [13:15] <hsivonen> annevk: I'd buy the argument if the string weren't parsed in new UAs
  178. # [13:15] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'm certainly not making the parsing more complex
  179. # [13:15] <annevk> hsivonen, that's only to ensure that the fallback is somewhat accurate
  180. # [13:15] <Hixie> hsivonen: but if we don't parse the values, the fallback sucks
  181. # [13:15] <hsivonen> annevk: well, it fails
  182. # [13:16] <hsivonen> annevk: consider doing QA in the en-US locale and it failing in the fr-FR locale
  183. # [13:17] <mjs> I think the fallback has to be script (or maybe a premade <img>) to be useful
  184. # [13:17] <mjs> I don't think any web app developer would want a progress bar with text as the fallback
  185. # [13:18] <mjs> especially if that text might not reflect the current state of the progress bar, if you used the API to update it
  186. # [13:19] <Hixie> if we don't want fallback at all, it might make more sense to make it a void element
  187. # [13:19] <Hixie> same with <meter>
  188. # [13:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: void elements suck, too
  189. # [13:20] <mjs> (and a static progress bar that you never update would not be a progress bar and shouldn't be treated as one)
  190. # [13:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: I suggest keeping the element content but purely for legacy UAs
  191. # [13:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: basically, the <video> thing
  192. # [13:21] <mjs> for <meter> I can imagine use cases where the state is static and therefore fallback is plausible, but you might well want an image as the fallback
  193. # [13:38] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: <html> example (whatwg r3784) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0044.html>
  194. # [13:38] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7283] add examples here <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0147.html>
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  196. # [14:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: in case there's any doubt, I think for http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7059 I can live with or without this rev http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=3764&to=3765 but those are the only two acceptable ways this can work
  197. # [14:03] <pimpbot> 7059: jonathan.robie@redhat.com, P2, REOPENED, Forking XPath
  198. # [14:03] <Hixie> that got reopened again?
  199. # [14:03] <hsivonen> that is, I'm OK with what the spec said at rev 3764 and what the spec said at rev 3765 but I'm not OK with anything that isn't technically indistinguishable from those two revs
  200. # [14:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: yeah
  201. # [14:04] <hsivonen> s/those two/either of those two/
  202. # [14:04] <Hixie> well we'll see what he says
  203. # [14:05] <Hixie> but if they want something that breaks back compat, that's pretty much a non-starter
  204. # [14:05] <Hixie> btw i'm getting too much w3 bugzilla mail now to read it all
  205. # [14:05] <Hixie> and i only look at open bugs and bugs marked LATER or REMIND
  206. # [14:06] <Hixie> so if anyone spots a bug that should be reopened, just reopen it
  207. # [14:06] <Hixie> now i shall sleep
  208. # [14:06] <Hixie> nn
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  210. # [14:08] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 7059] Forking XPath" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0153.html> ** [Bug 7508] <dialog> needs a way to add non-speech related information <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0151.html> ** [Bug 7059] Forking XPath <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0150.html> ** [Bug 7550] The invalid event does have a defa
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  213. # [14:38] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 7059] Forking XPath" (3 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0154.html>
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  217. # [15:08] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7551] New: People are using <section> incorrectly <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0156.html> ** "[Bug 7059] Forking XPath" (4 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0155.html>
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  220. # [15:39] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7552] Add <article> examples illustrating how to use the element, without an unnecessary <section> wrapper inside. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0158.html> ** [Bug 7552] New: Add <article> examples illustrating how to use the element, without an unnecessary <section> wrapper inside. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0157.html>
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  235. # [19:33] <cardona507> hello- I just got an email regarding tomorrow nights telcon - Can I attend over irc?
  236. # [19:36] <anne> yeah, though generally minutes quality is crappy and people are opposed to making raw audio available
  237. # [19:39] <jgraham> cardona507: Yeah, like anne says when one "attends" via irc one generally has no idea what is going on except in a very general sense
  238. # [19:39] * jgraham has never actually dialed in to a telecon
  239. # [19:39] <jgraham> But I assume if I did they would make somewhat more sense :)
  240. # [19:40] <cardona507> I joined the the working group 6 days ago and I am not up to speed on most of the topics being discussed yet. Will I be able to mostly listen in?
  241. # [19:41] <anne> yeah, usually it's just a big issue/action number shuffle
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  243. # [19:43] <cardona507> good - thanks anne and jgraham
  244. # [19:44] <jgraham> cardona507: There is not necessarily a strong correlation between the topics discussed at telecons and the topics being discussed on the list
  245. # [19:48] <hober> or the areas of the spec being actively worked on
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  256. # [20:40] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7556] New: Where is it defined that only the first <base> element is to be taken into account? Surely that should not be part of iri-bis. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0160.html> ** [Bug 7555] New: "The scope of this specification does not include documenting every HTML or DOM feature supported by Web browsers. ... For example, the blink element ..." -- but blink is documented in this specification <
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  260. # [21:10] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7558] New: "MIME type" not xreffed in "and any MIME type ending ..." <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0163.html> ** [Bug 7557] add "type" attribute to <nav> distinguish between primary and secondary navigation <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0162.html> ** [Bug 7557] New: add "type" attribute to <nav> distinguish between primary and secondary navigation <http://
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  265. # [22:10] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7557] add "type" attribute to <nav> to distinguish between primary and secondary navigation <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0164.html>
  266. # [22:40] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7373] Need to fix "If a Document or image was returned by the XMLHttpRequest API" now that the document pointer concept is gone. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0165.html>
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  269. # [23:10] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7469] Is it really necessary to have sections on what HTML5 does not cover? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0177.html> ** [Bug 7466] This section forbids exposing rel=feed but not exposing e.g. rel=copyright. I think that is wrong. The specification should not dictate UI for this. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0176.html> ** [Bug 7456] Ogg vorbis realy should be
  270. # [23:41] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7507] Firefox 3.5 does NOT clear a canvas if its width is set to itself <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0182.html> ** [Bug 7505] interface HTMLIFrameElement : HTMLElement { attribute DOMString src; attribute DOMString name; attribute DOMString sandbox; attribute boolean seamless; attribute DOMString width; attribute <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0181.html> ** [
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The end :)