/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-09-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Sep 17 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  5. # [00:36] <Philip> w3.org says: "Forbidden due to abuse. Access to this resource is denied due to abuse from your IP address."
  6. # [00:37] <Philip> which seems odd, because I've not been abusing anything via my IP
  7. # [00:37] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.246.17.210)
  8. # [00:38] <Philip> "Specifically, we received at least 500 requests for the same resource (URI) from your IP address within a ten-minute time interval." - that seems implausible, given that my network connection has received a total of 2703 packets in the past twenty minutes and most of those were IRC and email
  9. # [00:40] <Dashiva> Maybe your IRC client is trying to resolve a namespace
  10. # [00:40] <mjs> they didn't say they served the requests...
  11. # [00:41] <Philip> I only transmitted about 2500 packets in the same period
  12. # [00:42] <Philip> and most of those were presumably acks for receiving emails
  13. # [00:42] <Philip> and IRC keystrokes
  14. # [00:42] <Dashiva> Although they don't say when the 10-minute interval was
  15. # [00:42] <Dashiva> Maybe it was last week
  16. # [00:42] <Philip> True
  17. # [00:43] <Philip> It says "Your IP address has been blocked from accessing our site for 24 hours due to abuse." so I presume it was within the past 24 hours plus ten minutes
  18. # [00:43] <Philip> but it worked fine on this IP with no errors until about ten minutes ago
  19. # [00:44] <Philip> (It's a dynamic IP so someone else could have been using it half an hour ago)
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  21. # [00:57] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Warn about document.domain on shared hosting. (whatwg r3879) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0133.html>
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  36. # [05:00] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7657] Redefining dt and dd <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0371.html> ** [Bug 7657] New: Redefining dt and dd <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0370.html>
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  40. # [08:01] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7629] When the dd element is used inside figure and details it should probably not have margin by default. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0380.html> ** [Bug 7631] Don't invoke resource selection algorithm when inserting <source> if src="" is present <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0379.html> ** [Bug 7633] The use of @summary should be encouraged when circumstanc
  41. # [08:05] <MikeSmith> http://jkemp.net/tag/hybi.html
  42. # [08:05] <pimpbot> Title: Web Sockets and their ilk (at jkemp.net)
  43. # [08:31] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7628] The later 'block' box container should simply map to the first/last dd element. This makes UA implementations easier and script emulation of the feature in contemporary UAs as well. Both can simply toggle the display property between block and none. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0381.html>
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  62. # [12:32] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Update ws: and wss: registration. (whatwg r3880) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0134.html>
  63. # [12:32] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7658] New: s/the requisite element/the requested element/ <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0382.html>
  64. # [12:51] * Joins: laplink (link@193.157.66.7)
  65. # [12:58] <pimpbot> planet: Html5 handsets in the IT and US market <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1437899/html5-handsets-in-the-it-and-us-market>
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  69. # [13:58] <pimpbot> planet: Walking through an HTML5 blog site <http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ajaxian/~3/ceBqSHNStcg/walking-through-an-html5-blog-site>
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  73. # [14:20] <zcorpan> "<html lang="en-US-x-Hixie">" ...
  74. # [14:21] <Dashiva> Yes?
  75. # [14:22] <zcorpan> from the link above
  76. # [14:22] <zcorpan> people will copy-paste it
  77. # [14:23] <Dashiva> The fun starts when they add their own name instead of Hixie
  78. # [14:27] <jgraham> We could measure the popularity of various names by the number of x-Name pages there are for each name
  79. # [14:36] <Philip> jgraham: Given that measure, http://philip.html5.org/data/lang-values.txt indicates the most popular names in the entire world (indeed the *only* names in the entire world) are "strict", "western" and "NONE"
  80. # [14:38] <hsivonen> gb2312 sigh
  81. # [14:39] <hsivonen> hehe. fr-standard
  82. # [14:39] <hsivonen> sad. JavaScript
  83. # [14:40] <hsivonen> Philip: do you have dotbot data locally or do you run your analyses in EC2 or something?
  84. # [14:41] * hsivonen tries to think if there are any cases where document.written data get parsed in a state where the head pointer matters
  85. # [14:42] <Philip> hsivonen: I have it locally
  86. # [14:42] <Philip> It's only 5GB, which is pretty trivial
  87. # [14:43] <Philip> (with compression)
  88. # [14:44] <Philip> It's still pretty slow to process all the pages, so for looking at attributes I just grep a pre-computed 2GB (compressed) XML file of extracted attribute values
  89. # [14:47] <gsnedders> Philip: The current index, which I'm downloading now, is only 2.44GB compressed
  90. # [14:49] <Philip> gsnedders: True, but I've got two copies of it :-p
  91. # [14:49] <Philip> (The original ~2.5GB file, plus a version split into lots of chunks so it can be processed in parallel)
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  93. # [14:59] <pimpbot> planet: September HTML5 spec changes <http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/html5doctor/~3/sbpIFYiPRM0/>
  94. # [15:00] <hsivonen> ooh. controversial. HTML5 Doctor uses .mov in a <video> example
  95. # [15:00] <hsivonen> not .ogg, not .ogv, not even .mp4
  96. # [15:03] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7661] New: status <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0387.html> ** [Bug 7660] The resource selection algorithm should set currentSrc in the sync section before invoking resource fetch instead of being set in the async resource fetch. Otherwise checking currentSrc in onloadstart is not reliable. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0386.html> ** [Bug 7660] New: The resour
  97. # [15:05] * Parts: zcorpan (zcorpan@88.131.66.80)
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  100. # [15:33] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7662] New: When images are disabled arguably fallback content of the <canvas> element should be shown. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0388.html>
  101. # [15:38] <Lachy> mjs, yt?
  102. # [15:53] <Lachy> mjs, see public-html. I mailed about ACTION-103
  103. # [15:53] <Lachy> and I changed the due date in the tracker
  104. # [16:03] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7663] New: search <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0390.html> ** [Bug 7661] status <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0389.html>
  105. # [16:14] <hsivonen> not that EOF zaps partial tags, it's a bit annoying that partial comments and doctypes aren't also zapped
  106. # [16:14] <hsivonen> s/not/now/
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  109. # [16:36] <zcorpan> hsivonen: file a spec bug :)
  110. # [16:41] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I think I'll just bite the bullet and code around it
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  112. # [16:43] <hsivonen> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/rest-discuss/message/13266
  113. # [16:43] <pimpbot> Title: Yahoo! Groups (at tech.groups.yahoo.com)
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  117. # [16:54] <Philip> It's fun when people insult projects that you're not personally involved in
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  122. # [17:33] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7664] New: The in-memory representation is known as "DOM HTML", or "the DOM" for short. This specification defines version 5 of DOM HTML, known as "DOM5 HTML". <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0391.html>
  123. # [17:41] <anne> hsivonen, so it was not a joke? o_O
  124. # [17:42] <hsivonen> anne: I guess it wasn't.
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  127. # [18:03] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7664] The in-memory representation is known as "DOM HTML", or "the DOM" for short. This specification defines version 5 of DOM HTML, known as "DOM5 HTML". <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0392.html>
  128. # [18:04] <msporny> zakim, code?
  129. # [18:04] <msporny> woops :)
  130. # [18:05] <rubys1> trackbot, start meeting
  131. # [18:05] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  132. # [18:05] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  133. # [18:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  134. # [18:05] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  135. # [18:05] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
  136. # [18:05] <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
  137. # [18:05] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
  138. # [18:05] <trackbot> Date: 17 September 2009
  139. # [18:05] <ChrisWilson> zakim, who is on the phone?
  140. # [18:05] <Zakim> On the phone I see Sam, [Microsoft]
  141. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Masinter
  142. # [18:05] <ChrisWilson> zakim, microsoft is me
  143. # [18:05] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
  144. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P7
  145. # [18:06] <msporny> zakim, I am ??P7
  146. # [18:06] <Zakim> +msporny; got it
  147. # [18:06] <msporny> zakim, who is on the call?
  148. # [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see Sam, ChrisWilson, Masinter, msporny
  149. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Matt
  150. # [18:07] * Joins: paulc (ad0a79c1@128.30.52.43)
  151. # [18:07] <rubys1> agenda+ pick a scribe
  152. # [18:07] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
  153. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.715.718.aaaa
  154. # [18:07] <rubys1> agenda+ open / pending review action items
  155. # [18:07] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
  156. # [18:08] * Joins: adrianba (adrianba@131.107.0.102)
  157. # [18:08] <Zakim> + +1.831.454.aabb
  158. # [18:08] <rubys1> Topic: ISSUE-55 (head-profile) ACTION-99 on Chris Wilson
  159. # [18:08] <rubys1> zakim, aaaa is laura
  160. # [18:08] <Zakim> +laura; got it
  161. # [18:08] <Zakim> +Julian
  162. # [18:08] * Joins: masinter (user@192.150.10.200)
  163. # [18:08] <rubys1> zakim, aabb is carlos
  164. # [18:08] <Zakim> +carlos; got it
  165. # [18:08] <cardona507> hello
  166. # [18:08] <Zakim> + +1.425.214.aacc
  167. # [18:08] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmithX@mcclure.w3.org)
  168. # [18:08] <rubys1> agenda+ creation of an HTML Accessibility Task Force / Mike Cooper
  169. # [18:08] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
  170. # [18:09] <rubys1> agenda+ creation of an Testing Task Force / Jason Upton
  171. # [18:09] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
  172. # [18:09] <msporny> Mike(tm) Smith, now with extra feedback :)
  173. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
  174. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  175. # [18:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  176. # [18:09] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  177. # [18:09] <adrianba> zakim, [Microsoft] is adrianba
  178. # [18:09] <Zakim> +adrianba; got it
  179. # [18:09] <rubys1> next agendum
  180. # [18:09] * Zakim thinks agendum 1. "pick a scribe" taken up [from rubys1]
  181. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
  182. # [18:09] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  183. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Mike
  184. # [18:10] <rubys1> zakim, pick a scribe
  185. # [18:10] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Masinter
  186. # [18:10] <rubys1> zakim, pick a scribe
  187. # [18:10] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose adrianba
  188. # [18:10] <DanC> regrets+ DanC
  189. # [18:10] <msporny> scribenick: msporny
  190. # [18:10] * MikeSmith can clean up the minutes after
  191. # [18:10] <msporny> rrsagent, make logs public
  192. # [18:10] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, msporny
  193. # [18:10] * MikeSmith says cheers to Manu
  194. # [18:10] <rubys1> next agendum
  195. # [18:10] * Zakim thinks agendum 2. "open / pending review action items" taken up [from rubys1]
  196. # [18:11] <rubys1> Topic: ISSUE-55 (head-profile) ACTION-99 on Chris Wilson
  197. # [18:11] * Lachy waves. Ping me if you need me for anything
  198. # [18:11] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  199. # [18:11] <msporny> sam: Chris has said that he's not interested in pursuing this issue any further.
  200. # [18:11] <paulc> PaulC just joined.
  201. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> issue-65?
  202. # [18:11] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-65
  203. # [18:11] <trackbot> ISSUE-65 -- HTML 5 spec update after 10 June 2008 -- CLOSED
  204. # [18:11] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/65
  205. # [18:11] <msporny> sam: Anybody else interested in pursuing this further?
  206. # [18:11] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-65 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  207. # [18:11] <ChrisWilson> zakim, microsoft is PaulC
  208. # [18:11] <Zakim> +PaulC; got it
  209. # [18:11] <mjs> Lachy: thanks
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  211. # [18:12] <julian> q+
  212. # [18:12] * Zakim sees julian on the speaker queue
  213. # [18:12] <msporny> sam: propose that we close the action and promote the issue to raised, any objections?
  214. # [18:12] <rubys1> ack next
  215. # [18:12] * Zakim sees julian at the head of the speaker queue
  216. # [18:12] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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  218. # [18:12] <msporny> julian: Trying to understand the process here
  219. # [18:12] <msporny> julian: I think it's clear what needs to be done, we just need the spec to be changed.
  220. # [18:13] <Zakim> + +1.613.998.aadd
  221. # [18:13] <msporny> sam: Should this be marked up as a separate spec?
  222. # [18:13] <msporny> julian: This should be specified separate of RDFa.
  223. # [18:13] <msporny> julian: What's needed is a separate spec.
  224. # [18:13] <msporny> Sam: Right, somebody needs to do that.
  225. # [18:14] <Zakim> +mjs
  226. # [18:15] <msporny> Manu: I can propose some text for @profile, since we're working on that.
  227. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> q+ to say that it's not necessarily clear at all that the HTML5 spec itself needs to include @profile, and as TimBL has said, a spec can be as small as one page
  228. # [18:15] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  229. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> close action-99
  230. # [18:15] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-99.
  231. # [18:15] <trackbot> ACTION-99 Propose head/@profile/microdata solution closed
  232. # [18:16] <rubys1> action manu to produce a separate spec for profile attribute due in 3 weeks
  233. # [18:16] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  234. # [18:16] <trackbot> Created ACTION-144 - Produce a separate spec for profile attribute due in 3 weeks [on Manu Sporny - due 2009-09-24].
  235. # [18:16] <rubys1> ack next
  236. # [18:16] * Zakim sees MikeSmith at the head of the speaker queue
  237. # [18:16] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say that it's not necessarily clear at all that the HTML5 spec itself needs to include @profile, and as TimBL has said, a spec can be as small as one page
  238. # [18:16] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  239. # [18:16] * masinter is really confused about what we're talking about
  240. # [18:16] <msporny> mike: As far as the W3C director is concerned, there is no physical limits on how small a specification can be
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  242. # [18:16] <msporny> mike: Specifically for this, it could be documented as a separate specification.
  243. # [18:16] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
  244. # [18:16] <annevk> Zakim, passcode?
  245. # [18:16] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), annevk
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  248. # [18:17] <Zakim> +??P44
  249. # [18:17] <msporny> mike: it's not clear that this should be included in the core of HTML5 itself.
  250. # [18:17] <annevk> Zakim, ??P44 is me
  251. # [18:17] <Zakim> +annevk; got it
  252. # [18:17] <julian> (the proposed RDFa+HTML spec currently defines head/@profile and link/@rel=profile...
  253. # [18:17] <msporny> mike: It's not clear that @profile meets the criteria that it's broadly useful to web authors.
  254. # [18:18] <julian> ...moving it into a separate spec, untangling it from RDFa can help resolving the profile issue)
  255. # [18:18] <msporny> mike: That's not to say that it's not useful, but it's not broadly useful to authors. So it makes sense to place it into another document.
  256. # [18:18] <masinter`> issue-55?
  257. # [18:18] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-55
  258. # [18:18] <trackbot> ISSUE-55 -- head/@profile missing, but used in other specifications/formats -- OPEN
  259. # [18:18] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/55
  260. # [18:18] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-55 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  261. # [18:18] <msporny> mike: Sounds like Manu is going to go ahead and do that, so we have a clear way forward with this.
  262. # [18:18] <msporny> Sam: Anybody else have input? I think we have a plan forward.
  263. # [18:18] * masinter` got confused by the issue-65 query, we're talking aboug 55
  264. # [18:18] <rubys1> Topic: ISSUE-32 (table-summary) ACTION-136 on Matthew May
  265. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> action-144?
  266. # [18:19] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-144
  267. # [18:19] <trackbot> ACTION-144 -- Manu Sporny to produce a separate spec for profile attribute due in 3 weeks -- due 2009-09-24 -- OPEN
  268. # [18:19] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/144
  269. # [18:19] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-144 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  270. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> action-136?
  271. # [18:19] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-136
  272. # [18:19] <trackbot> ACTION-136 -- Matthew May to send draft to the list, due in three weeks -- due 2009-09-17 -- OPEN
  273. # [18:19] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/136
  274. # [18:19] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-136 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  275. # [18:19] <Laura> Summary Spec Text Drafted
  276. # [18:19] <msporny> sam: We have got a document from Cynthia, what are the next steps?
  277. # [18:19] <Laura> http://dev.w3.org/html5/pf-summary/Overview.html#the-table-element
  278. # [18:19] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/0553.html
  279. # [18:19] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at dev.w3.org)
  280. # [18:19] <msporny> Cynthia: I think we have a document and we now need feedback.
  281. # [18:19] <pimpbot> Title: FW: [html] Summary draft from Cynthia Shelly on 2009-09-14 (public-html@w3.org from September 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  282. # [18:19] <msporny> Dan: Shelley added a bug to that as well.
  283. # [18:19] <Laura> The definition of a closed issue is: "CLOSED = The chairs believe either the WG has resolved the issue (via spec editing) or the issue has been withdrawn."
  284. # [18:20] <msporny> Sam: I don't think the issue is closed. There is active forward progress.
  285. # [18:20] <msporny> Cynthia: We need to have a deadline for a decision.
  286. # [18:20] <msporny> Sam: A deadline on what?
  287. # [18:20] <msporny> Sam: The next step would be to update the draft in two weeks.
  288. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> close action-136
  289. # [18:20] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-136.
  290. # [18:20] <trackbot> ACTION-136 Send draft to the list, due in three weeks closed
  291. # [18:21] <rubys1> action cynthia update table summary draft due in 2 weeks
  292. # [18:21] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  293. # [18:21] <trackbot> Created ACTION-145 - Update table summary draft due in 2 weeks [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2009-09-24].
  294. # [18:21] <rubys1> topic: ISSUE-56 (urls-webarch) ACTION-137 on Larry Masinter
  295. # [18:21] <Zakim> -Matt
  296. # [18:21] <msporny> Sam: Larry had recently posted something, do you want to comment on that?
  297. # [18:22] * MikeSmith wakes up at mention of Vint Cerf
  298. # [18:22] <msporny> Larry: The chair of IDNA workgroup has agreed to meet with Ian to talk about these issues.
  299. # [18:23] <rubys1> action-137?
  300. # [18:23] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-137
  301. # [18:23] <trackbot> ACTION-137 -- Larry Masinter to update IRI spec based on comments to Public-IRI (Including those from HTML-WG members), -- due 2009-09-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  302. # [18:23] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/137
  303. # [18:23] <masinter`> action-137?
  304. # [18:23] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-137
  305. # [18:23] <trackbot> ACTION-137 -- Larry Masinter to update IRI spec based on comments to Public-IRI (Including those from HTML-WG members), -- due 2009-09-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  306. # [18:23] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-137 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  307. # [18:23] <msporny> Larry: We're trying to resolve the conflict between what web browsers want and what other specs need. We're going to start work at IETF to address this issue.
  308. # [18:23] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/137
  309. # [18:23] <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
  310. # [18:23] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-html-wg-minutes.html msporny
  311. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> q+ to ask Larry for his thoughts on use of the term "URL" in the IRIbis draft
  312. # [18:23] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  313. # [18:23] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 17 Sep 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  314. # [18:23] <msporny> Larry: The feedback from Martin Duerst is that we need to change the IRI spec to match what the HTML5 document proposes.
  315. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> +1 to drastic change in IRI document being necessary
  316. # [18:24] * Quits: pimpbot (pimpbot@80.68.92.65) (Client exited)
  317. # [18:24] <msporny> Larry: John Clemson, editor of IDNA documents, says we need to avoid paths where percent-encoded addresses are presented to DNS.
  318. # [18:24] <julian> s/Clenson/Klensin/
  319. # [18:25] <mjs> q+
  320. # [18:25] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, mjs on the speaker queue
  321. # [18:25] <msporny> s/Clemson/Klensin/
  322. # [18:26] <msporny> Larry: We need to figure out how to deal with percent-encoded values in the authority field.
  323. # [18:26] <julian> q+ to state that IRIbis is not going to be ready in time for HTML5 LC
  324. # [18:26] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, mjs, julian on the speaker queue
  325. # [18:26] <rubys1> ack next
  326. # [18:26] * Zakim sees MikeSmith at the head of the speaker queue
  327. # [18:26] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to ask Larry for his thoughts on use of the term "URL" in the IRIbis draft
  328. # [18:26] <msporny> Larry: The goal of this exercise is to define URIs and IRIs in IETF in a way that HTML5 can make a normative reference to those documents.
  329. # [18:26] * Zakim sees mjs, julian on the speaker queue
  330. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> julian, it doesn't necessarily need to be ready in time for LC
  331. # [18:27] <msporny> Larry: Getting all of these people on the same mailing list would be good.
  332. # [18:27] <julian> MikeSmith, so an internet draft would be sufficient for now?
  333. # [18:27] * rubys1 asks larry to pause for a breath
  334. # [18:27] <julian> q-
  335. # [18:27] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  336. # [18:27] <msporny> Larry: The IETF will proceed in generating IETF documents as quickly as they can, and the chair of the IDNA workgroup has said that he'd talk with Ian and come up with a process that is effective.
  337. # [18:28] <msporny> Mike: Larry, from the notes I've seen and the messages that you've sent - we don't need to be that concerned about the schedule. We just want an indication that it's headed in the right direction.
  338. # [18:29] <msporny> Mike: the biggest concern that we have is that there was originally some spec text in HTML5 that got dropped on the floor when migrating it into IRIbis
  339. # [18:29] <msporny> Larry: Those issues are not closed, there are some things that are still open. It seems like there was no place to put them until we got this reorganization resolved.
  340. # [18:30] <msporny> Mike: at some point, we have to consider doing some audits on what was needed is still there in the new documents.
  341. # [18:30] <msporny> Larry: yes, that is still an action item for me.
  342. # [18:30] <msporny> Larry: I wanted to make sure that there was a path for this document.
  343. # [18:31] <msporny> Mike: So the other thing, Larry, from some of your notes it seems like the term "URL" in the HTML5 draft is problematic.
  344. # [18:31] <msporny> Mike: What you're proposing is that URL, as used, it's consistent with the HTML5 draft
  345. # [18:32] <msporny> Mike: We don't want to have a discussion on that right now...
  346. # [18:32] <msporny> Larry: The term "URL" has a current widespread usage that is somewhat ambiguous.
  347. # [18:32] <msporny> Larry: So, using a term that is ambiguous in a formal specification by giving it a precise definition is problematic.
  348. # [18:33] <msporny> Larry: If IETF defines what that term means, then HTML5 can use that term.
  349. # [18:33] <msporny> Larry: The reason that HTML5 needed to define a new term is because there was no good technical normative reference for URL.
  350. # [18:33] <msporny> Larry: Let's fix the technical normative reference issue.
  351. # [18:33] <rubys1> ack next
  352. # [18:33] * Zakim sees mjs at the head of the speaker queue
  353. # [18:33] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  354. # [18:34] <msporny> Maciej: Larry, I asked his in an e-mail in response to this new effort.
  355. # [18:34] <msporny> Maciej: Once concern I have is that HTML5 is referencing a spec that isn't moving forward. It can't reference IRIbis because there are some important algorithm definitions that are not good.
  356. # [18:35] <msporny> Maciej: This sounds like a good way forward, but getting a new working group going is a problem.
  357. # [18:35] <msporny> Maciej: What could we do in the interim to not block HTML5's progress.
  358. # [18:36] <msporny> Larry: I understand the timing issues, and I don't think we're proposing holding up the HTML5 spec in any way.
  359. # [18:36] * MikeSmith feels a twinge of nostalgia at the "when did you stop beating your wife?" mention
  360. # [18:36] <julian> q+ to state that [IRIbis] can not replace [WebAddress], as the latter has HTML/XML specific bits in it (in the "resolve URL" algorithm)
  361. # [18:36] * Zakim sees julian on the speaker queue
  362. # [18:36] <msporny> Larry: We're just trying to get people together to talk about this issue.
  363. # [18:37] <msporny> Sam: When is the new date for updating the IRI spec?
  364. # [18:37] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@88.131.66.80) (Quit: zcorpan)
  365. # [18:37] <msporny> Larry: I can incorporate the questions in the document in the next week.
  366. # [18:37] <msporny> Larry: I want to make sure Maciej's question was answered.
  367. # [18:37] <msporny> Maciej: Willing to take the question offline, let's move on.
  368. # [18:37] <rubys1> topic: ISSUE-76 (Microdata/RDFa) on Manu Sporny
  369. # [18:37] <julian> q-
  370. # [18:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  371. # [18:38] <msporny> julian: I checked the WEBADDRESS draft, there are some things that would never be in IRIbis that are HTML specific
  372. # [18:38] <msporny> julian: There need to be deeper edits.
  373. # [18:39] <rubys1> issue-76?
  374. # [18:39] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-76
  375. # [18:39] <trackbot> ISSUE-76 -- Concerns about Microdata section and inclusion/exclusion of RDFa -- OPEN
  376. # [18:39] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/76
  377. # [18:39] <rubys1> action-139?
  378. # [18:39] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-139
  379. # [18:39] <trackbot> ACTION-139 -- Manu Sporny to produce 3 separate HTML5 drafts and the external Microdata draft -- due 2009-09-18 -- OPEN
  380. # [18:39] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/139
  381. # [18:39] <julian> msporny: there are four new drafts, one of which is RDFa+HTML, to be published as FPWD
  382. # [18:40] <julian> msporny: 2 remaining issues, raised by Henri
  383. # [18:40] <mjs> q+
  384. # [18:40] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  385. # [18:40] <julian> msporny: disagreement whether these are spec or implementation issues
  386. # [18:40] <rubys1> ack next
  387. # [18:40] * Zakim sees mjs at the head of the speaker queue
  388. # [18:40] <masinter`> s/Clemson/Klensin/
  389. # [18:40] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  390. # [18:41] * Philip posted some comments about the RDFa+HTML draft some minutes ago, which might raise new issues
  391. # [18:42] <masinter`> s/The feedback from Martin Duerst is that w/W/
  392. # [18:42] * shepazu zakim, call shepazu
  393. # [18:42] * Zakim ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  394. # [18:42] <Zakim> +Shepazu
  395. # [18:42] <masinter`> s/there was no place/there was no good place/
  396. # [18:43] <masinter`> s/If IETF defines what that term means/If IETF defines a term HTML5 can use/
  397. # [18:44] <paulc> q+
  398. # [18:44] * Zakim sees paulc on the speaker queue
  399. # [18:44] <rubys1> ack next
  400. # [18:44] * Zakim sees paulc at the head of the speaker queue
  401. # [18:44] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  402. # [18:44] <msporny> WebApps!!!!
  403. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> q?
  404. # [18:44] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  405. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> WebApps!!!
  406. # [18:44] <masinter`> s/just trying to get/getting/
  407. # [18:45] <masinter`> s/incorporate the questions in/incorporate changes (or leave questions) in/
  408. # [18:45] <msporny> Paul: Somebody needs to take an action to notify W3C about publishing as FPWD.
  409. # [18:46] <msporny> Sam: When should we talk about these other drafts? Two weeks from now?
  410. # [18:46] <rubys1> topic: ACTION-127 (review of other WG's specs) on Paul Cotton
  411. # [18:46] <msporny> scribenick: msporny
  412. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> action-127?
  413. # [18:46] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-127
  414. # [18:46] <trackbot> ACTION-127 -- Paul Cotton to establish process for "official WG response" to other WG's RFC on LC drafts -- due 2009-09-15 -- OPEN
  415. # [18:46] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/127
  416. # [18:46] <msporny> manu: Sounds good.
  417. # [18:46] <msporny> paul: I went back over the last nine months and looked at all of the LC requests.
  418. # [18:46] <rubys1> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/0702.html
  419. # [18:47] * julian wonders why tracker didn't link to that mail
  420. # [18:47] <msporny> paul: The request to review the ARIA spec is the only thing that should be reviewed by HTML WG.
  421. # [18:47] <msporny> paul: We should ask which documents people expect us to review.
  422. # [18:47] <shepazu> (you should definitely review DOM3 Events, which should be going to LC soon)
  423. # [18:47] <msporny> paul: Once I've figured that out, I can figure out what kind of process we'd like to have in place.
  424. # [18:47] <rubys1> topic: ACTION-134 (WG test suite) on Doug Schepers
  425. # [18:48] <msporny> Doug: You should definitely review DOM3 Events... it's going to LC within the next month or two.
  426. # [18:49] <msporny> Doug: Several of us went up to Boston, we started to build a testing infrastructure.
  427. # [18:49] <msporny> Doug: it does two things:
  428. # [18:49] <msporny> Doug: It does automated testing in all the major browsers.
  429. # [18:49] <msporny> Doug: It has a crowd-sourcing aspect that allows people to submit, review, comment on, and review tests.
  430. # [18:50] <msporny> Doug: Anybody can tie into this system... all these tests are going to be focused on Web-focused technologies.
  431. # [18:50] <msporny> Doug: CSS, Geolocation, HTML, etc.
  432. # [18:50] <msporny> Doug: The idea is that if we crowd-source the review of these tests, it'll be much faster and more effective than if we do it as a group.
  433. # [18:50] <paulc> W3C Chairs minutes (member only): http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-chairs-minutes
  434. # [18:50] <msporny> Doug: We should be rolling that out pretty soon.
  435. # [18:50] <msporny> Sam: Would you like a new date on the action?
  436. # [18:50] <paulc> q+
  437. # [18:50] * Zakim sees paulc on the speaker queue
  438. # [18:51] <msporny> Doug: We should close the action. I'll send out progress as it happens.
  439. # [18:51] <rubys1> ack next
  440. # [18:51] * Zakim sees paulc at the head of the speaker queue
  441. # [18:51] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  442. # [18:51] <msporny> Paul: This item was publicized only this week. It would be good if we could extract the information we talked about in the chairs meeting and make it more public.
  443. # [18:51] <msporny> Paul: We would like a written description so far.
  444. # [18:52] <msporny> Doug: I'd like to keep it a bit under wraps for now, there's a bit of documentation online:
  445. # [18:52] <msporny> Doug: I'll post the link later.
  446. # [18:52] <shepazu> http://omocha.w3.org/wiki/
  447. # [18:52] <msporny> Doug: I'll see what we can do about HCG.
  448. # [18:52] <rubys1> topic: ACTION-103 on Lachlan Hunt: Register about: URI scheme
  449. # [18:52] * Quits: taf2 (taf2@38.99.201.242) (Quit: taf2)
  450. # [18:52] <rubys1> pef http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/0684.html
  451. # [18:52] <rubys1> s/pef/per/
  452. # [18:52] <rubys1> Topic: ISSUE-59 (normative-language-reference) on Mike Smith
  453. # [18:53] <msporny> Sam: I moved it back a week to give us an update...
  454. # [18:53] <msporny> Sam: Mike?
  455. # [18:53] <msporny> Mike: I don't have any specific updates and no promise about it.
  456. # [18:53] <msporny> Mike: we can close this issue, I think.
  457. # [18:53] <msporny> s/Dan:/Mike:/
  458. # [18:53] <msporny> Mike: I will try to get this issue closed before the next meeting.
  459. # [18:53] <rubys1> Topic: ISSUE-63 (origin-req-scope) Origin header
  460. # [18:54] <msporny> Sam: Anybody have any comments on this?
  461. # [18:54] <msporny> Mike: There is a bugzilla issue for this, but I don't have it offhand.
  462. # [18:54] <msporny> Mike: I'll try to post it if I can find it in the next couple of minutes
  463. # [18:54] <masinter`> q+
  464. # [18:54] * Zakim sees masinter` on the speaker queue
  465. # [18:54] <rubys1> ack next
  466. # [18:54] * Zakim sees masinter` at the head of the speaker queue
  467. # [18:54] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  468. # [18:55] <msporny> Larry: My personal opinion is that the HTML document should not contain network protocol additions.
  469. # [18:55] <msporny> Larry: They should be separated out into an other document so other specs could reference the protocol without having to reference HTML5.
  470. # [18:55] <mjs> q+
  471. # [18:55] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  472. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> that's the case currently with this particular header, so no problem
  473. # [18:55] <rubys1> ack next
  474. # [18:55] * Zakim sees mjs at the head of the speaker queue
  475. # [18:55] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  476. # [18:56] <msporny> Maciej: From conversations with Ian, the plan for this is to either replace Origin header with another header, or drop the item entirely.
  477. # [18:56] <msporny> Maciej: We should re-review when that is done to see if everyone is satisfied.
  478. # [18:56] <paulc> q+
  479. # [18:56] * Zakim sees paulc on the speaker queue
  480. # [18:56] <mjs> (the other header is Sec-From, which is defined in its own internet-draft)
  481. # [18:56] <rubys1> ack next
  482. # [18:56] * Zakim sees paulc at the head of the speaker queue
  483. # [18:56] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  484. # [18:56] * Parts: Viper23 (Viper23@80.153.21.122)
  485. # [18:57] <msporny> Paul: So, it sounds like what Maciej is saying is that we have an implicit or explicit dependency on the editor to do something.
  486. # [18:57] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7599
  487. # [18:57] <MikeSmith> issue-63: related bugzilla bug - http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7599
  488. # [18:57] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-63.
  489. # [18:57] <trackbot> ISSUE-63 Origin header: in scope? required for this release? notes added
  490. # [18:58] * Joins: pimpbot (pimpbot@80.68.92.65)
  491. # [18:58] <msporny> Sam: Sounds like there is forward progress being made, status is no different from next week.
  492. # [18:58] <rubys1> next agendum
  493. # [18:58] * Zakim thinks agendum 3. "creation of an HTML Accessibility Task Force / Mike Cooper" taken up [from rubys1]
  494. # [18:58] <msporny> s/next week/last week/
  495. # [18:58] <Laura> Janina's email regarding the Accessibility Task Force:
  496. # [18:58] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/0649.html
  497. # [18:58] <pimpbot> Title: Re: Accessibility Task Force from Janina Sajka on 2009-09-16 (public-html@w3.org from September 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  498. # [18:58] <msporny> Sam: As a Work Group we've done everything that we can do.
  499. # [18:58] <msporny> Sam: Anybody object to PLH and (somebody else) to move this forward?
  500. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> no objection from me.. latest message for Janina seems to indicate we have resolution
  501. # [18:59] <msporny> Paul: So, we'll follow this forward to next weeks meeting.
  502. # [18:59] <rubys1> next agendum
  503. # [18:59] * Zakim thinks agendum 4. "creation of an Testing Task Force / Jason Upton" taken up [from rubys1]
  504. # [18:59] <msporny> Sam: Sounds like they're making progress.
  505. # [19:00] <msporny> Sam: I don't think there are any major issues with the Testing Task Force.
  506. # [19:00] <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/0687.html
  507. # [19:00] <pimpbot> Title: RE: HTML WG Testing Task Force from Paul Cotton on 2009-09-17 (public-html@w3.org from September 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  508. # [19:00] <msporny> Paul: It's in the style of the previous proposal for the accessibility task force.
  509. # [19:00] <msporny> Paul: Maybe we should just let people respond to this.
  510. # [19:00] <msporny> Paul: It's very possible that testing people might not want to get the main HTML WG e-mail feed.
  511. # [19:01] <msporny> Paul: We need to figure out a way to protect them from the deluge of HTML WG e-mails, but still make them members of the HTML WG.
  512. # [19:01] <MikeSmith> MikeSmith notes that Paul noted the problem of how to handle testsuite contributors from volume of e-mail on the public-html list
  513. # [19:01] <msporny> Paul: The last time we put something like this forward, it created some discussion.
  514. # [19:02] <hober> I find that most email clients have some kind of filtering feature; can't TF people just filter public-html to /dev/null if they find it overwhelming?
  515. # [19:02] <msporny> Paul: Registration period for TPAC for $50/day fee goes up next week.
  516. # [19:02] <msporny> Paul: You need to register before the 21st of September to get the $50/day fee.
  517. # [19:02] <msporny> Paul: When we were discussing TPAC, the hotel is under room pressure
  518. # [19:03] <msporny> Paul: By early October, they might be out of rooms.
  519. # [19:03] <msporny> Sam: Anything else?
  520. # [19:03] <msporny> Paul: One of the TPAC panels is going to be on HTML extensibility.
  521. # [19:03] <msporny> Paul: The best technical plenaries are the ones with blood on the floor :)
  522. # [19:03] * shepazu fight! fight! fight!!!
  523. # [19:03] <msporny> Paul: They're thinking of instead of a panel discussion that it should be a debate.
  524. # [19:04] * julian is now tempted to attend.
  525. # [19:04] <msporny> Sam: Cage match! :)
  526. # [19:04] * shepazu 5 specs enter, 1 spec leaves
  527. # [19:04] <Zakim> - +1.425.214.aacc
  528. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
  529. # [19:04] <Zakim> -adrianba
  530. # [19:04] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
  531. # [19:04] * Quits: Bryan (Bryan@135.214.42.68) (Quit: Leaving)
  532. # [19:04] <Zakim> - +1.613.998.aadd
  533. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> +1 to Paul's comment about "blood on the floor" discussions being the most interesting
  534. # [19:04] <Zakim> -carlos
  535. # [19:04] * Quits: paulc (ad0a79c1@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC 0.5.9 (2006/06/06))
  536. # [19:05] <Zakim> -mjs
  537. # [19:05] <msporny> rrsagent, generate minutes
  538. # [19:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-html-wg-minutes.html msporny
  539. # [19:05] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 17 Sep 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  540. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Julian
  541. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Sam
  542. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Mike
  543. # [19:05] <Zakim> -PaulC
  544. # [19:05] <Zakim> -laura
  545. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Shepazu
  546. # [19:05] <msporny> Chair: Sam_Ruby
  547. # [19:06] * Quits: adrianba (adrianba@131.107.0.102) (Ping timeout)
  548. # [19:06] <msporny> Present: Manu_Sporny, Julian_Reschke, Sam_Ruby, Paul_Cotton, Laura_Carlson, Doug_Schepers
  549. # [19:06] <msporny> Present+ Maciej_Stachowiak
  550. # [19:06] <msporny> zakim, who is on the call?
  551. # [19:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see Masinter, msporny, annevk
  552. # [19:06] * Parts: annevk (opera@83.85.115.44)
  553. # [19:06] * masinter` doesn't see any message from Maciej about IRIs
  554. # [19:07] <msporny> Present+ Larry_Masinter
  555. # [19:07] <Zakim> -annevk
  556. # [19:07] <msporny> Present+ AnneVanKesteren
  557. # [19:07] <msporny> Regrets+ Dan_Connolly
  558. # [19:07] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217) (Quit: Laura)
  559. # [19:08] <msporny> rrsagent, generate minutes
  560. # [19:08] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-html-wg-minutes.html msporny
  561. # [19:08] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 17 Sep 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  562. # [19:08] * Joins: Chris_Wilson (cwilso@131.107.0.69)
  563. # [19:08] <mjs> masinter`: I replied to your public-iri email last night
  564. # [19:09] * Joins: annevk (opera@83.85.115.44)
  565. # [19:09] <masinter`> ah ok, was looking for it on public-html
  566. # [19:09] * Quits: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.85) (Ping timeout)
  567. # [19:09] <mjs> masinter`: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-iri/2009Sep/0063.html on process questions
  568. # [19:09] <pimpbot> Title: Re: IDNA, IRI, HTML5 coordination from Maciej Stachowiak on 2009-09-17 (public-iri@w3.org from September 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  569. # [19:10] <mjs> (also had a separate email with some minor technical comments)
  570. # [19:11] <Zakim> -Masinter
  571. # [19:12] <msporny> zakim, who is on the call?
  572. # [19:12] <Zakim> On the phone I see msporny
  573. # [19:12] <msporny> Regrets- DanC
  574. # [19:12] <msporny> rrsagent, generate minutes
  575. # [19:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-html-wg-minutes.html msporny
  576. # [19:12] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 17 Sep 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  577. # [19:12] <DanC> regrets+ DanC
  578. # [19:13] <shepazu> I would like for the HCG minutes to be public... I still don't understand why that can't be done
  579. # [19:14] <Zakim> -msporny
  580. # [19:14] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  581. # [19:14] <Zakim> Attendees were Sam, Masinter, ChrisWilson, msporny, Matt, +1.715.718.aaaa, +1.831.454.aabb, laura, Julian, carlos, +1.425.214.aacc, Cynthia_Shelly, adrianba, Mike, PaulC,
  582. # [19:14] <Zakim> ... +1.613.998.aadd, mjs, annevk, Shepazu
  583. # [19:14] <msporny> rrsagent, generate minutes
  584. # [19:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-html-wg-minutes.html msporny
  585. # [19:14] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 17 Sep 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  586. # [19:15] <msporny> rrsagent, bye
  587. # [19:15] <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-html-wg-actions.rdf :
  588. # [19:15] <RRSAgent> ACTION: plh look into some questions we have about how the W3C Patent Policy obligations would apply to a joint TF. [1]
  589. # [19:15] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-html-wg-irc#T16-36-28
  590. # [19:15] <RRSAgent> ACTION: paulc to get co-chairs to bring forward a concrete proposal for a testing task force (including scope) [2]
  591. # [19:15] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-html-wg-irc#T16-47-40
  592. # [19:15] <RRSAgent> ACTION: paul to get co-chairs to bring forward a concrete proposal for a testing task force (including scope) [3]
  593. # [19:15] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-html-wg-irc#T16-48-21
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  626. # [22:36] * Parts: masinter (masinter@76.102.104.162)
  627. # [22:42] * drunknbass_wor is now known as drunknbass_work|a
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  630. # [22:58] <pimpbot> planet: Re: Dive Into Python 3 -- Mark Pilgrim has completed his Creative Commons licensed book about Python 3 <http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9lhvp/dive_into_python_3_mark_pilgrim_has_completed_his/c0da1bx>
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  639. # [23:59] <pimpbot> planet: Which is better and why? RaphaelJS or HTML5 Canvas? <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1441427/which-is-better-and-why-raphaeljs-or-html5-canvas>
  640. # Session Close: Fri Sep 18 00:00:00 2009

The end :)