/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-09-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Sep 29 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  8. # [02:02] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Synchronise with the latest Origin spec rules and semantics. (whatwg r4011) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0262.html>
  9. # [02:02] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7747] New: Attribute language not allowed on element script at this point <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0868.html> ** "[Bug 7599] Either drop the two places that set the "Origin" HTTP header, or update HTML5 to match the Sec-From/Origin I-D (if the latter is stable enough yet)." (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0867.html>
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  12. # [02:32] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Add an example for pushState(). (whatwg r4012) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0263.html>
  13. # [02:32] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7621] editorial: add example for pushState() - it's not clear what to use as the data <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0871.html> ** [Bug 7623] It'd be really nice if you specified if the angle argument to context.rotate accepts degrees, radians, or what. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0870.html> ** [Bug 7621] editorial: add example for pushState() - it's not cle
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  16. # [03:02] <pimpbot> planet: Chris Anderson: CouchDB: Relaxing Offline JavaScript <http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/blogspot/Dcni/~3/lmWbe8AJv6U/chris-anderson-couchdb-relaxing-offline.html>
  17. # [03:02] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Hide margin on 'dd' if in <figure> or <details>. (whatwg r4017) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0268.html> ** hixie: Change how <details> renders by default to use the <dt> and <dd> elements. (whatwg r4016) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0267.html> ** hixie: xref more 'being rendered' (whatwg r4015) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0
  18. # [03:02] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7633] The use of @summary should be encouraged when circumstances warrant <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0881.html> ** [Bug 7629] When the dd element is used inside figure and details it should probably not have margin by default. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0880.html> ** "[Bug 7628] The later 'block' box container should simply map to the first/last dd elem
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  20. # [03:32] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: a.name somehow fell through the cracks (whatwg r4021) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0272.html> ** hixie: remove newlines near <pre> and </pre> tags. (whatwg r4020) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0271.html> ** hixie: Recommend just redesigning tables to not need explanations instead of including complicated descriptions. (whatwg r4019) <http://lists.w3.org/Archi
  21. # [03:32] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7638] editorial: Add a pointer to the supplemental interface behind a class=impl for all interfaces that have a supplemental interface in this spec (in the obsolete section) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0886.html> ** [Bug 7637] Where is HTMLAnchorElement.name defined? I don't see it here nor in the main interface definition <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0885.html
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  23. # [04:02] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Remove '<font pointsize>' altogether. (whatwg r4025) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0276.html> ** hixie: Define isindex as not defined. (whatwg r4024) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0275.html> ** hixie: Bulk cleanup of some XXX markers (mostly obsolete things or ideas that we won't get to this time). (whatwg r4023) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-htm
  24. # [04:02] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 7642] which attribute wins if both pointsize and size are specified?" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0894.html> ** "[Bug 7640] The definition of the "isindex" element here makes such elements' main interface be HTMLElement rather than HTMLUnknownElement. I suppose that's not intended" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0892
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  28. # [04:32] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: clarify example (whatwg r4027) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0278.html> ** hixie: Be less specific about how <details> hides its kids. (whatwg r4026) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0277.html>
  29. # [04:32] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7658] s/the requisite element/the requested element/ <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0903.html> ** [Bug 7657] Redefining dt and dd <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0902.html> ** [Bug 7652] Is it fine for <nav> to link to a bunch of external pages? E.g. your Flickr/Facebook/Twitter/etc. profiles? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/
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  31. # [05:02] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Other applicable specifications definition. (whatwg r4028) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0279.html>
  32. # [05:02] <pimpbot> planet: thoughts on chrome frame <http://shaver.off.net/diary/2009/09/28/thoughts-on-chrome-frame/> ** Want to help build the future of the Web? Join the Mozilla Labs team! <http://labs.mozilla.com/blog/2009/09/join-the-mozilla-labs-team/>
  33. # [05:02] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 7657] Redefining dt and dd" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0907.html> ** "[Bug 7659] Clarify what "other applicable specifications" means to say http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Sep/0045.html" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0905.html>
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  40. # [06:26] <MikeSmith> issue: use of the dt and dd elements in figure and details content models
  41. # [06:26] * trackbot noticed an ISSUE. Trying to create it.
  42. # [06:26] <trackbot> Created ISSUE-83 - Use of the dt and dd elements in figure and details content models ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/83/edit .
  43. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> issue-83: escalated from http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7657
  44. # [06:28] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-83.
  45. # [06:28] <trackbot> ISSUE-83 Use of the dt and dd elements in figure and details content models notes added
  46. # [06:28] <pimpbot> 7657: shelleyp@burningbird.net, P2, REOPENED, Redefining dt and dd
  47. # [06:33] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 7657] Redefining dt and dd" (4 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0909.html>
  48. # [06:55] <MikeSmith> issue-32?
  49. # [06:55] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-32
  50. # [06:55] <trackbot> ISSUE-32 -- how to provide a summary of a table, e.g. for unsighted navigation? -- OPEN
  51. # [06:55] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/32
  52. # [06:55] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-32 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  53. # [06:55] <MikeSmith> issue-32: see also http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7633 (The use of @summary should be encouraged when circumstances warrant)
  54. # [06:55] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-32.
  55. # [06:55] <trackbot> ISSUE-32 how to provide a summary of a table, e.g. for unsighted navigation? notes added
  56. # [06:55] <pimpbot> 7633: shelleyp@burningbird.net, P2, RESOLVED WONTFIX, The use of @summary should be encouraged when circumstances warrant
  57. # [07:03] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7644] The first example for footnotes is actually an example of a dialogue. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0914.html> ** [Bug 7642] which attribute wins if both pointsize and size are specified? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0913.html> ** [Bug 7638] editorial: Add a pointer to the supplemental interface behind a class=impl for all interfaces that have a supple
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  59. # [07:33] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7633] The use of @summary should be encouraged when circumstances warrant <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0915.html>
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  61. # [08:03] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Example of <section> use without <article>. (whatwg r4029) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0280.html>
  62. # [08:07] <MikeSmith> heycam: you've made some patches for the Tracker code, right?
  63. # [08:09] <heycam> hi MikeSmith, i have indeed
  64. # [08:12] <MikeSmith> heycam: have you made any that required schema changes? I want to add a new "Related Bugs" field in the Tracker, and figured maybe I should write up a patch for it. rather than waiting.
  65. # [08:13] <heycam> hmm, no i haven't done that
  66. # [08:13] <heycam> it's a bit tricky writing patches for tracker, since i don't have access to the databases (or other dependent php modules)
  67. # [08:13] <heycam> so i just wrote some patches blind and sent them to dom, who fixed up any bugs
  68. # [08:18] <MikeSmith> heycam: OK, I guess I'll just leave it up to dom
  69. # [08:31] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like a lot of bugs get escalatd to Tracker issues :-(
  70. # [08:33] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Explicitly allow <canvas> support to be disabled. (whatwg r4031) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0282.html> ** hixie: Set currentSrc reliably. (whatwg r4030) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0281.html>
  71. # [08:33] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 7662] When images are disabled arguably fallback content of the <canvas> element should be shown." (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0921.html> ** [Bug 7633] The use of @summary should be encouraged when circumstances warrant <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0919.html> ** "[Bug 7660] The resource selection algorithm should set currentSrc in t
  72. # [08:36] <Hixie> there's an inverse correlation between the direction of my graph and the direction of the htmlwg graph, it seems
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  74. # [09:00] <julian> hsivonen, are you surprosed that these things get escalated?
  75. # [09:00] <julian> ....surprised...
  76. # [09:03] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7734] open being an attribute of the section rather than the content area means you can never use this to mark up content which has multiple control/detail areas which are opened or closed independently like tabs or accordion <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0927.html> ** [Bug 7735] perhaps open could be an int rather than boolean, indicating which content area was open to make using this model for tabs e
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  79. # [09:19] <hsivonen> julian: not really. but I think it's probably not productive to have a situation where most escalations are performed by a couple of people whose world view differs from the world view underlying the spec
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  82. # [09:26] <julian> The word view underlying the spec doesn't have consensus in the WG.
  83. # [09:27] <julian> This leads to the situation that discussing with the author doesn't yield any result, and thus these issues are escalated so they are officially tracked by the WG.
  84. # [09:27] <julian> I think that's the process we chose.
  85. # [09:28] <julian> Besides, many of these have nothing to do with a world view.
  86. # [09:28] <julian> Such as claiming @summary isn't obsolete, but listing it in a section called "obsolete, but conforming".
  87. # [09:33] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: By request, show the bookkeeping stuff to authors. (whatwg r4033) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0284.html> ** hixie: Mention what events are involved in copy/paste. (whatwg r4032) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0283.html>
  88. # [09:33] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7746] <link rel=search> should be used instead of <input type=search> for backwards-compatibility and beacuse the search input type poses no additional input restrictions. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0934.html> ** [Bug 7680] Add an 'angle' element to HTML5 <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0933.html> ** "[Bug 7679] editorial: "The following content attributes m
  89. # [09:39] <hsivonen> julian: consensus != unanimity. When anyone can join the group and people of the world aren't unanimous, one should expect not to get unanimity
  90. # [10:00] * Quits: heycam (cam@66.134.141.179) (Ping timeout)
  91. # [10:00] <julian> hsivonen, yes, but if it's not clear where the consensus is then it's the chairs' job to figure out; and in this case it seems to be clear that there is non consensus
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  93. # [10:03] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Note the idea of <input type=time> having an allowed range crossing midnight. (whatwg r4034) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0285.html>
  94. # [10:03] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7689] Cache-defeating semantics are not defined <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0946.html> ** "[Bug 7688] 'input type=time' forbids legitimate use case" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0945.html> ** [Bug 7686] No need to require user interface in cache update algorithm <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/094
  95. # [10:06] <hsivonen> julian: do tel: and mailto: identify resources? I thought they were just hacks for hooking into navigation without actually identifying a resource.
  96. # [10:07] <julian> of course they do
  97. # [10:08] <Hixie> i think it's clear that "of course" is not an appropriate part of that response, given how many people disagree with you here
  98. # [10:08] <hsivonen> julian: do those resources come with a representation in any situation?
  99. # [10:08] <julian> no
  100. # [10:08] <Hixie> (or at least, how many people don't immediately agree, if not disagree)
  101. # [10:10] * Joins: heycam (cam@66.134.141.179)
  102. # [10:10] <julian> "A resource is not necessarily accessible via the Internet; e.g., human beings, corporations, and bound books in a library can also be resources. Likewise, abstract concepts can be resources, such as the operators and operands of a mathematical equation, the types of a relationship (e.g., "parent" or "employee"), or numeric values (e.g., zero, one, and...
  103. # [10:10] <julian> ...infinity)." - RFC3986
  104. # [10:11] <julian> "The World Wide Web (WWW, or simply Web) is an information space in which the items of interest, referred to as resources, are identified by global identifiers called Uniform Resource Identifiers (URI)." -- WEBARCH
  105. # [10:12] <Hixie> i like how you didn't quote the bit before that
  106. # [10:12] <Hixie> Resource
  107. # [10:12] <Hixie> This specification does not limit the scope of what might be a
  108. # [10:12] <Hixie> resource; rather, the term "resource" is used in a general sense
  109. # [10:12] <Hixie> for whatever might be identified by a URI. Familiar examples
  110. # [10:12] <Hixie> include an electronic document, an image, a source of information
  111. # [10:12] <Hixie> with a consistent purpose (e.g., "today's weather report for Los
  112. # [10:12] <Hixie> Angeles"), a service (e.g., an HTTP-to-SMS gateway), and a
  113. # [10:12] <julian> Nobody claims that every resource has a bag-of-bits representation.
  114. # [10:12] <Hixie> collection of other resources.
  115. # [10:12] <Hixie> nor does html5
  116. # [10:12] <Hixie> (i do, but the spec doesn't)
  117. # [10:12] <julian> I was answering to Henri.
  118. # [10:13] <Hixie> actually, even i don't to be honest. I just think that they usually do.
  119. # [10:13] <Hixie> CPU is a resource, and it doesn't have a bag of bits.
  120. # [10:13] <julian> I left the first part out as it didn't appear relevant; do you think it contains anything that is in conflict with my point of view?
  121. # [10:14] <julian> So how can you the say "a resource *is* a bag-of-bits", when you just said what you said ("CPU is a resource, and it doesn't have a bag of bits.")
  122. # [10:14] <Hixie> well it explicitly says that bags of bits ("an image") are resources, and it explicitly says that it doesn't limit the definition of the word at all
  123. # [10:14] <julian> of course bags-of-bits are resources, as, by definition, you can assign a URI to them
  124. # [10:14] <Hixie> julian: it might be more helpful to argue in concrete terms of what the spec says that you don't like, rather than in terms of what my vague opinions should be
  125. # [10:14] <julian> for instance a data: URI
  126. # [10:15] <julian> That's true; ajnd it appears Nikunj has started doing that.
  127. # [10:19] <hsivonen> I think it's not useful to debate the resourceness of the referents of URIs that cannot be dereferenced/triggered as part of navigation in software that uses URIs for navigation
  128. # [10:20] <hsivonen> so unless a URI to CPU can be used somewhere as part of navigation or fetching, I think it's not useful to debate it as a hypothetical
  129. # [10:20] <julian> triggering a tel URI can invoke a telephony API
  130. # [10:20] <julian> triggering a mailt URI usually invokes a MUA
  131. # [10:20] <hsivonen> julian: indeed. debating the nature of tel: is more useful than debating a hypothetical CPU
  132. # [10:20] <julian> both do not have representations though
  133. # [10:21] <julian> I didn't bring up "CPU"
  134. # [10:21] <hsivonen> julian: do you see tel: and mailto: having the same nature as http: or ftp: URLs or do you see them as browser hacks?
  135. # [10:21] <hsivonen> (or something else if that's a false dichotomy)
  136. # [10:21] <julian> neither :-)
  137. # [10:21] <julian> I don't see them as browser hacks
  138. # [10:22] <julian> But they are in a different class then FTP or HTTP
  139. # [10:22] <hsivonen> julian: what are the resources they identify?
  140. # [10:22] <julian> a tel URI identifies a telephone numner, a mailto URI a mailbox
  141. # [10:23] * hsivonen observes that deferencing mailto doesn't return the contents of the mailbox
  142. # [10:23] <hsivonen> instead they address sending
  143. # [10:23] <hsivonen> but http sending (PUT/POST) can't be so addressed without out-of-band data indicating sending
  144. # [10:24] <hsivonen> no conclusion, just saying
  145. # [10:24] <julian> yes
  146. # [10:24] <Hixie> it seems odd to say that mailto:test@example.com?subject=foo identifies a mailbox
  147. # [10:25] <hsivonen> it seems to me mailto is for triggering email sending UI
  148. # [10:25] <julian> Agreed
  149. # [10:25] <hsivonen> and not for identifying anything
  150. # [10:25] <julian> Well, it doesn't send.
  151. # [10:25] <Hixie> in fact mailto:?subject=test seems to work also, which makes the mailbox argument seem wrong
  152. # [10:25] <julian> It gets you somewhere from where you can send
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  154. # [10:26] <julian> It still can be phrased in a resource-like way.
  155. # [10:27] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38)
  156. # [10:28] * Philip wonders if there is anything in the world that cannot be considered a resource
  157. # [10:33] <hsivonen> julian: there's a difference with being able to phrase anything in terms of "resource" if you try hard enough and "resource/representation" being an appropriate abstraction for all URIs
  158. # [10:34] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Define when reset event fires. (whatwg r4037) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0288.html> ** hixie: typo (whatwg r4036) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0287.html> ** hixie: Try to make this note about what happens with clashes in the manifest cover more cases. (whatwg r4035) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0286.html>
  159. # [10:34] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 7699] define reset event" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0953.html> ** [Bug 7691] each of which 'has', not 'have' <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0951.html> ** [Bug 7694] object@classid is missing from list of Content attributes, even though it is essential <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0950.html>
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  161. # [11:04] <pimpbot> planet: mimesniff, an implementation of the HTML5 content sniffing algorithm: http://code.google.com/p/mimesniff/ <http://twitter.com/diveintomark/statuses/4465325063> ** mimesniff - Project Hosting on Google Code <http://code.google.com/p/mimesniff/>
  162. # [11:04] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Define 'abort' event half-heartedly. Any improvement suggestions welcome. (whatwg r4039) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0290.html> ** hixie: tiny editorial fixes (whatwg r4038) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0289.html>
  163. # [11:04] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7748] New: Does it have to be an absolute path or can it be a relative one, too? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0956.html> ** "[Bug 7700] define abort event" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0955.html>
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  168. # [11:34] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: grammar fix (whatwg r4043) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0294.html> ** hixie: Block cross-origin PUT and DELETE from <form>s for now. (whatwg r4042) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0293.html> ** hixie: mention <time pubdate> from <article> (whatwg r4041) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0292.html> ** hixie: Handle the case wher
  169. # [11:34] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7711] The "strong native semantics" are worded very similarly -- but not quite the same -- for input type=Number, input type=range, and progressbar. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0971.html> ** [Bug 7710] "Any byte or sequences of bytes [...] that is misinterpreted [...]" - s/sequences/sequence/ <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0970.html> ** [Bug 7709] Prevent PU
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  172. # [11:38] <julian> "This library implements the content sniffing algorithm described in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-abarth-mime-sniff-01, which will eventually become a normative reference in HTML5."
  173. # [11:38] <pimpbot> Title: draft-abarth-mime-sniff-01 - Content-Type Processing Model (at tools.ietf.org)
  174. # [11:39] <julian> It would really be good if people would be more careful in talking about the actual requirement in HTML5.
  175. # [11:39] <anne> sounds like wishful thinking to me
  176. # [11:40] <Hixie> it'd be really good if all specs defined error handling and were written to be implementable, too, but we don't all get what we want :-)
  177. # [11:40] * hsivonen wonders if the I-D license these days allows copying I-D text into BSD source code
  178. # [11:40] <Hixie> s/were written to be implementable/were written to be implementable even in the face of market forces requiring compatibility with legacy content/
  179. # [11:44] <julian> Henri, ID text as in "tables"? "Code"?
  180. # [11:44] <hsivonen> julian: as in spec text
  181. # [11:44] <julian> As far as I can tell, authors can now (as of Sep 2009, see <http://trustee.ietf.org/docs/IETF-Trust-License-Policy.pdf>) mark parts of the spec to be "code components", and let them fall under the BSD license.
  182. # [11:45] <hsivonen> julian: mpilgrim's implementation has lot of the spec text inline
  183. # [11:45] <julian> I think copying excerpts was always ok, as long as the source was mentioned. But then, I'm not a layer.
  184. # [11:45] <julian> i c
  185. # [11:46] * Quits: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.85) (Ping timeout)
  186. # [11:47] <Hixie> hm, i guess i can make the websocket rfc claim to be entirely consisting of code components
  187. # [11:48] <julian> in this case the spec author should clarify which part of the spec falls under <http://trustee.ietf.org/docs/IETF-Trust-License-Policy.pdf>, Section 4; and the user of that text would then need to follow Section 4d.
  188. # [11:49] <anne> Hixie, the source of web sockets is still under a liberal license right?
  189. # [11:49] <Hixie> yeah
  190. # [11:49] <anne> then all is good
  191. # [11:49] <Hixie> i don't think it's all that clear to people that the source is available
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  196. # [11:54] <julian> The "source" as in "the source of the spec"?
  197. # [11:55] <julian> All what the readers of the ID see is:
  198. # [11:55] <julian> "Copyright Notice Copyright (c) 2009 IETF Trust and the persons identified as the document authors. All rights reserved. This document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF Trust's Legal Provisions Relating to IETF Documents in effect on the date of publication of this document (http://trustee.ietf.org/license-info). Please review these documents carefully, as they describe...
  199. # [11:55] <pimpbot> Title: Trust Legal Provisions (TLP) (at trustee.ietf.org)
  200. # [11:55] <julian> ...your rights and restrictions with respect to this document."
  201. # [11:57] <anne> yes
  202. # [12:02] <julian> So if the IPR for the ID != the default IETF IPR, the ID shouldn't pretend it is (I can assist with the xml2rfc mechanics for that)
  203. # [12:03] <Hixie> is there a way to make hte IPR for the RFC be MIT-licensed or better?
  204. # [12:03] <anne> public domain would be neat
  205. # [12:03] <julian> you can suppress the default boilerplate, and then put there whatever you want
  206. # [12:04] <julian> of course this will need to be addressed somehow when you want to publish as RFC
  207. # [12:04] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Include explicit text about how swapCache() doesn't change anything but the active cache. (whatwg r4048) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0299.html> ** hixie: first first -> first five (whatwg r4047) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0298.html> ** hixie: resolve a conflicting requirement (whatwg r4046) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/02
  208. # [12:04] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 7725] It should be made more clear that only the "disk representation" is changed, not the "memory representation". I.e. images are not suddenly reloaded etc." (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0988.html> ** "[Bug 7723] duplicate word ("first first") should be "first five"" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0986.html> **
  209. # [12:04] <julian> actually, suppressing may not work of things published as ID
  210. # [12:04] <Hixie> my question is, does "this will need to be addressed somehow" mean "the IETF will only let you publish as an RFC if you use their copyright" or does it mean "it's fine"
  211. # [12:05] <julian> it means that if you want to publish as RFC, you will have to grant the IETF Trust certain rights.
  212. # [12:05] <Hixie> or something in between, as with the w3c, who are apparently fine with it, but only if they are provided with the opportunity to debate it for a year
  213. # [12:05] <julian> Actually, you already did by submitting the ID
  214. # [12:05] <Hixie> it's not the IETF Trust i am worried about having rights, it's everyone else
  215. # [12:05] <julian> I'm not sure what you need to do if you want to grant *additional* rights to other parties.
  216. # [12:06] <Hixie> are the rights they ask for exclusive?
  217. # [12:06] <Hixie> ok
  218. # [12:07] <julian> I really don't know.
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  220. # [12:18] <mjs> I don't think the IETF asks for exclusive copyright assignment
  221. # [12:19] <mjs> the process RFC makes this clear
  222. # [12:22] <mjs> "... the contributor, the organization he represents (if any) and the owners of any proprietary rights in the contribution, grant an unlimited perpetual, non-exclusive, royalty-free, world-wide right and license to the ISOC and the IETF under any copyrights in the contribution."
  223. # [12:32] <hsivonen> julian: is your interest in the profile/version draft only profile or do you want version, too?
  224. # [12:33] <mjs> it seems to me like if we have a version attribute at all, it should be a flat numeric version like for SVG
  225. # [12:33] <mjs> not some weird text encoding of a set of profiles
  226. # [12:34] <mjs> (not that I think it should have one, but it is lame to pre-empt the possibility)
  227. # [12:34] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Removing an event handler content attribute needs to clear out the event handler. (whatwg r4050) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0301.html> ** hixie: sleep is for the weak (whatwg r4049) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0300.html>
  228. # [12:34] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 7626] Spec says: "Note: Removing an event handler content attribute does not reset the corresponding event handler attribute.". In fact browsers will remove or "deactivate" the listener when you remove the HTML attribute. Some browsers reset it to null or undef" (5 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0993.html>
  229. # [12:35] * Joins: MarcoAchury (Marco@206.49.165.28)
  230. # [12:45] <julian> Henri, I'm actually only interested in having something that properly defines @profile.
  231. # [12:45] <julian> (will be off-line for most of the afternoon)
  232. # [12:49] <MarcoAchury> On my case I have found that the best solution to share files is to save as pdf
  233. # [12:54] <hsivonen> julian: ok. thanks
  234. # [12:56] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmithX@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.)
  235. # [13:04] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Add an ID. (also, add a missing word) (whatwg r4053) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0304.html> ** hixie: Authoring-side change for the previous checkin. (whatwg r4052) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0303.html> ** hixie: Report parse error for missing spaces in DOCTYPEs. (whatwg r4051) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0302.html>
  236. # [13:04] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7741] First set of examples of alternative stylesheets have stylesheet titles marked up with href attributes rather than title attributes <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/1009.html> ** "[Bug 7739] Add ids to author notes to allow direct linking" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/1008.html> ** [Bug 7736] add tooltip attribute & keep title for o
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  243. # [13:34] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Cleanup some more XXX issues that I decided to punt on. (whatwg r4056) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0307.html> ** hixie: Cleanup some more XXX issues that I decided to punt on. (whatwg r4055) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0306.html> ** hixie: fix markup errors in example (whatwg r4054) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0305.html>
  244. # [13:34] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7726] legacy doctype syntax allows <!DOCTYPE HTML SYSTEM"about:legacy-compat"> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/1015.html> ** [Bug 7638] editorial: Add a pointer to the supplemental interface behind a class=impl for all interfaces that have a supplemental interface in this spec (in the obsolete section) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/1014.html> ** [Bug 7748] Does
  245. # [13:39] <mjs> Hixie: what's the point of separating the "obsolete" parts of the IDL interface anyway? Just to make them less visible to authors reading the spec?
  246. # [13:40] <Hixie> yes
  247. # [13:41] <mjs> perhaps that outweighs the slight extra difficulty for implementors (I have gotten confused by it myself)
  248. # [13:42] <Hixie> really?
  249. # [13:42] <Hixie> how so?
  250. # [13:42] <Philip> Maybe the non-obsolete IDL blocks should have a comment linking to the obsoleted part, so implementors can easily find the whole definition
  251. # [13:43] <Hixie> i just wontfixed a bug with that suggestion
  252. # [13:43] <Philip> Oh
  253. # [13:43] * Philip rarely bothers reading pimpbot's spam in here
  254. # [13:47] * Quits: MarcoAchury (Marco@206.49.165.28) (Ping timeout)
  255. # [13:49] <mjs> at times I've read the main IDL interface, been confused that something was missing, and only later remembered to check the supplemental interface
  256. # [13:51] <Hixie> ah
  257. # [13:53] <mjs> I guess I can see how it would be confusing for authors if IDL attributes that reflect nonconforming content attributes were listed in the main descriptions
  258. # [13:55] <mjs> that seems to be most of it, except the slight oddity of HTMLScriptElement
  259. # [13:55] <mjs> I guess you want to effectively make it nonconforming to implement <script for>?
  260. # [13:56] <Hixie> i want the browsers to all do the same thing
  261. # [13:56] <Hixie> i don't really care as much exactly what that is
  262. # [13:56] <Hixie> (not just browsers, either)
  263. # [13:56] <Hixie> anyway gotta sleep
  264. # [13:56] <Hixie> ttyl
  265. # [13:58] <mjs> ah, those were "reserved" in DOM Level 1
  266. # [14:04] <pimpbot> planet: Google Chrome Frame <http://www.glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?post/2009/09/29/Google-Chrome-Frame>
  267. # [14:04] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: First woefully inadequate cut at <applet>. Please file bugs if you know better... (whatwg r4057) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0308.html>
  268. # [14:35] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7751] New: "the user agent instantiate a Java Language runtime plugin" misses a SHOULD-level requirement after "user agent". <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/1016.html>
  269. # [15:05] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7752] New: Please use "URL character encoding" instead of just "character encoding" for clarity <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/1017.html>
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  274. # [15:35] <pimpbot> planet: The Footer Element Update <http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/html5doctor/~3/dLAFQ5cxGDg/>
  275. # [15:35] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7711] The "strong native semantics" are worded very similarly -- but not quite the same -- for input type=Number, input type=range, and progressbar. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/1018.html>
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  277. # [16:05] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7753] New: The order of section headers and data lines should be aligned. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/1019.html>
  278. # [16:35] <pimpbot> planet: Is "localStorage" in Firefox only working when the page is online? <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1492942/is-localstorage-in-firefox-only-working-when-the-page-is-online> ** Challenge deadlines, WebGL, Theora, Firefox, Snowl, Open Web, Drumbeat, Mozilla Catalyst, and more… <http://blog.mozilla.com/about_mozilla/2009/09/29/challenge-deadlines-webgl-theora-firefox-snowl-open-web-drumbeat-mozilla-catalyst-and-more/>
  279. # [16:35] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7755] New: Rename online whitelist URLs to online whitelist namespaces <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/1021.html> ** [Bug 7754] New: Make it clear that the URLs entered for online whitelist sections are in fact namespaces as well. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/1020.html>
  280. # [17:05] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7735] perhaps open could be an int rather than boolean, indicating which content area was open to make using this model for tabs easier <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/1022.html>
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The end :)