/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-10-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 01 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  7. # [00:43] <pimpbot> planet: Canvas Tutorial / Reference <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1334216/canvas-tutorial-reference>
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  26. # [05:44] <pimpbot> planet: Recently <http://diveintomark.org/archives/2009/09/30/recently>
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  30. # [07:45] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7779] Missing task source for application cache events <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Oct/0000.html>
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  42. # [09:15] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7766] Fallback namespace overlap/repetition ignored <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Oct/0001.html>
  43. # [09:22] * Joins: marcin (marcin@82.207.140.22)
  44. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> issue-41: initial proposal from Tony Ross is at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/att-1216/MicrosoftDistributedExtensibilitySubmission.htm
  45. # [09:25] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-41.
  46. # [09:25] <trackbot> ISSUE-41 Decentralized extensibility notes added
  47. # [09:25] <pimpbot> Title: Distributed Extensibility Proposal (at lists.w3.org)
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  51. # [09:45] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7764] Since the online whitelist entries are namespaces it should not use a prefix match but instead something more complicated as is defined for fallback entries in 6.9.5. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Oct/0003.html> ** [Bug 7767] Atomic update of application cache is not well-defined <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Oct/0002.html>
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  65. # [11:56] <julian> Henri, yes I do. A lot. (http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20091001#l-308)
  66. # [11:56] <pimpbot> Title: IRC logs: freenode / #whatwg / 20091001 (at krijnhoetmer.nl)
  67. # [11:58] <Philip> You like the experience a lot?
  68. # [11:59] <julian> Yes.
  69. # [11:59] <julian> You need the proper environment (such as XSLT), or the proper convenience libraries (when dealing with the DOM)
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  72. # [12:13] <jgraham> I think a problem for which XSLT is the solution is a good type of problem not to have
  73. # [12:14] <julian> because...?
  74. # [12:16] <jgraham> XSLT is no fun
  75. # [12:17] <julian> yes, it is.
  76. # [12:17] <julian> This leads nowhere.
  77. # [12:17] <anne> what are you talking about? recursive XSLT templates are lots of fun :)
  78. # [12:17] * anne enjoyed playing with that
  79. # [12:18] <julian> see? :-)
  80. # [12:23] <Philip> XSLT is fun when you break it
  81. # [12:24] <Philip> (e.g. applying to http://www.rddl.org/rddl2rdf.xsl to http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace)
  82. # [12:24] <pimpbot> Title: The "xml:" Namespace (at www.w3.org)
  83. # [12:24] <Philip> I've never managed to actually write any myself, though
  84. # [12:36] <hsivonen> julian: OK. maybe Tantek could document you as a counter data point
  85. # [12:56] <julian> Henri, that might be a good idea. He should include the WebDAV and JCR communities also.
  86. # [13:00] <hsivonen> julian: how does WebDAV use XML Namespaces?
  87. # [13:03] <julian> extensibility for property names, report names and condition codes
  88. # [13:15] <hsivonen> julian: when the SVN UI has svn:foo stuff, does svn expand to an XML namespace in the wire protocol?
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  90. # [13:46] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 7765] Maybe progress should be named fetchcachefile or some such" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Oct/0005.html>
  91. # [13:46] <pimpbot> planet: ChemDoodle Web Components <http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ajaxian/~3/tXwnL_CrAxU/chemdoodle-web-components>
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  100. # [15:16] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7782] New: "select an application cache" is vague <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Oct/0009.html> ** [Bug 7781] forbid duplicate online whitelist namespaces <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Oct/0008.html> ** [Bug 7781] New: forbid duplicate online whitelist namespaces <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Oct/0007.html> ** [Bug 7780] New: si
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  104. # [15:47] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7783] appcache download events <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Oct/0011.html> ** [Bug 7783] New: appcache download events <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Oct/0010.html>
  105. # [15:47] <pimpbot> planet: Microsoft's Proposed Namespace Distributed Extensibility in HTML5 <http://realtech.burningbird.net/semantic-web/rdf-and-rdfa/microsofts-proposed-namespace-distributed-extensibility-html5>
  106. # [15:49] <hsivonen> Interesting that the above blog post is filed under rdf-and-rdfa
  107. # [15:51] <Philip> If Shelley is reading this: The post has a typo in <a hre="...">
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  109. # [16:00] <julian> Henri, if you're referring to SVN properties: yes; although the SVN designers copied a design error from WebDAV anno 1999, inventing a new URI scheme for that purpose (the WebDAV designers are somewhat excused, as the WebDAV drafts actually predate XMLNS)
  110. # [16:01] <hsivonen> julian: ok.
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  112. # [16:01] <hsivonen> I'm rather suprised if the whole WebDAV community indeed like namespaces
  113. # [16:02] <Philip> hsivonen: I suggest joining the WebDAV community
  114. # [16:02] <hsivonen> since other communities exposed to namespaces don't all-round like them
  115. # [16:02] <Philip> and then it will be clearly true that not the whole community likes them
  116. # [16:02] <hsivonen> Philip: cunning plan
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  119. # [16:17] <jgraham> julian: Have you worked with any of the APIs that use clarke notation for namespaces? My experience with lxml is that it is not at all fun since you end up doing string concatenations everywhere
  120. # [16:18] <julian> I've used it internally successfully. It's also used in JCR 2.0.
  121. # [16:18] <Philip> jgraham: Isn't the idea that namespaceURI+localName is just an opaque identifier?
  122. # [16:18] <julian> Usually you just define the constants you need once for all, and no concatenation is needed at all.
  123. # [16:18] <julian> Philip, exactly.
  124. # [16:18] <Philip> and you should only do string manipulation if you're implementing a parser
  125. # [16:18] <Philip> or a serialiser
  126. # [16:18] <Philip> or a DOM-like API
  127. # [16:18] <Philip> and most people are simply writing applications and not doing any of those things
  128. # [16:19] <julian> An alternative is to wrap this into an object/interface, so the internal state becomes simply an implementation detail.
  129. # [16:19] <jgraham> Uh, so if you are writing an application that wants to search for a particular {namespace}tagName string you have to have to do string concatention at some level
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  131. # [16:20] <Philip> jgraham: No you don't
  132. # [16:20] <julian> James, why? Where does the identifier come from in the first place?
  133. # [16:20] <Philip> "{http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml}img"
  134. # [16:20] <Philip> I didn't have to do any string concatenation there :-p
  135. # [16:21] <jgraham> Well OK, but assuming that you don't want to type out the namespace URI every time you use it
  136. # [16:21] <Philip> var xhtml_img = "{http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml}img";
  137. # [16:21] <jgraham> which seems like an unreasonable burden (and extremely error-prone)
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  139. # [16:22] <jgraham> Philip: You still have to do that once per element you care about
  140. # [16:22] <jgraham> So instead you probably end up writing a function that takes some form of prefix and a localName and returns the full name
  141. # [16:23] <Philip> jgraham: Yes, so you just copy-and-paste to get a big block of global variables at the top of your program and then never worry about it again
  142. # [16:23] <jgraham> so you are back at the position where you have to deal with (prefix, localName) tuples
  143. # [16:23] <Philip> Most languages don't have a crazy number of elements like HTML, anyway
  144. # [16:24] <jgraham> Philip: I don't think copy and paste of dozens of elements is a sensible design
  145. # [16:25] <julian> James, using string constants is not a sensible design?
  146. # [16:25] <julian> Sounds like "if it involves URIs it is bad, no matter what"
  147. # [16:25] <jgraham> julian: Using dozens of very similar string constants that you generate via copy-and-paste seems like bad design to me, yes
  148. # [16:26] <julian> I don't think it matters how they are generated.
  149. # [16:26] <julian> That being said, I'm generating them by concatenation with the NSURI string constant, once at compile time.
  150. # [16:27] <jgraham> So how do you actually access these string constants in your scheme?
  151. # [16:29] <julian> by name?
  152. # [16:30] <jgraham> So you end up with global variables called xhtml_img, svg_foreignContent and so on, or something?
  153. # [16:30] <julian> Not global variables. I guess that depends on the programming language that you're in.
  154. # [16:32] <hsivonen> julian: declaring string constants is an annoying level of indirection compared to using string literals provided by the programming language
  155. # [16:33] <julian> Henri, that's a matter of taste. Using named string constants allows the compiler to check for typos.
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  157. # [16:35] <hsivonen> julian: of course, you can make a type in the constant declaration
  158. # [16:35] <hsivonen> julian: I had a typo in my Typinator macro for the XLink namespace
  159. # [16:36] <julian> Henri, true, but you'll likely notice that sooner.
  160. # [16:36] <Philip> You'll only have one opportunity to make the typo
  161. # [16:36] <julian> Henri, if the constant is only used once, the likelyhood of a typo being undetected is the same; it get's lower with each additional use.
  162. # [16:36] <Philip> which is better than having n opportunities, when you use the same constant n times
  163. # [16:37] <hsivonen> true
  164. # [16:37] <julian> in particular if the constants are part of the API you use
  165. # [16:37] <hsivonen> anyway, I found that if you are writing modular software, you end up declaring the constants many times
  166. # [16:37] <hsivonen> because you don't want inter-module deps just for NS constants
  167. # [16:37] <hsivonen> so you end up pasting it all many, many times
  168. # [16:38] <Philip> I wonder if you could teach your IDE's spell-checker to check namespace URI literals
  169. # [16:38] <hsivonen> so many that I now use Typinator exclusively for writing NS URIs!
  170. # [16:38] <Philip> You could write a single namespace constant module, and include that everywhere
  171. # [16:38] <Philip> That'd still be modular
  172. # [16:40] <hsivonen> Philip: would you consider it appropriate if the V.nu HTML parser required you to install an NS decl jar from somewhere else first?
  173. # [16:40] <hsivonen> so that we could all be using Apache Jakarta Commons XML Namespace Declarations
  174. # [16:41] <Philip> If it was handled automatically like most of the other dependencies, that'd be fine
  175. # [16:48] <rubys> s/Apache Jakarta Commons/Apache Commons/
  176. # [16:53] <julian> BTW: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/index.html?javax/xml/XMLConstants.html
  177. # [16:53] <pimpbot> Title: Java 2 Platform SE 5.0 (at java.sun.com)
  178. # [16:53] <julian> sorry
  179. # [16:53] <julian> http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/javax/xml/namespace/QName.html
  180. # [16:53] <pimpbot> Title: QName (Java 2 Platform SE 5.0) (at java.sun.com)
  181. # [16:53] <julian> we should make frames non-conformant
  182. # [16:55] <anne> they are
  183. # [16:57] <Philip> hsivonen: I think I'm warming to your suggestion
  184. # [16:57] <Philip> All you'd have to do is start your program with a hundred lines like:
  185. # [16:57] <Philip> import org.apache.commons.namespaces.constants.notation.clark.xhtml.XHTML_IMG_NS;
  186. # [16:58] <Philip> and Eclipse can auto-insert them all for you
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  188. # [16:59] <hsivonen> actually, javadocs are a rather reasonable use case for frames
  189. # [17:00] <hsivonen> how should one implement javadocs in HTML5?
  190. # [17:01] <Philip> iframes!
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  194. # [17:29] <mjs> good morning
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  199. # [17:57] <anne-elsewhere> telcon in 3?
  200. # [17:57] <mjs> yep
  201. # [17:58] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  202. # [17:58] * Joins: masinter (user@76.102.104.162)
  203. # [17:59] <Philip> According to the latest email, it is going to be a week ago
  204. # [17:59] <Zakim> +laura
  205. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
  206. # [17:59] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  207. # [17:59] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  208. # [17:59] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/10/01-html-wg-irc
  209. # [17:59] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  210. # [17:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  211. # [17:59] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
  212. # [17:59] <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
  213. # [17:59] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
  214. # [17:59] <trackbot> Date: 01 October 2009
  215. # [17:59] <Zakim> +carlos
  216. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
  217. # [17:59] <Zakim> + +49.251.8.aaaa
  218. # [17:59] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  219. # [17:59] <Zakim> +Mike
  220. # [17:59] <julian> Zakim, +49.251.8.aaaa is me
  221. # [17:59] <Zakim> +julian; got it
  222. # [17:59] <Zakim> +mjs
  223. # [17:59] <julian> Zakim, mute me
  224. # [17:59] <Zakim> julian should now be muted
  225. # [17:59] * rubys has no access to a phone, but will follow along on IRC
  226. # [18:00] <mjs> I recommend opening the agenda email to follow along: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JulSep/0048.html
  227. # [18:00] <anne-elsewhere> Zakim, passcode?
  228. # [18:00] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne-elsewhere
  229. # [18:00] * Parts: sbublava (sbublava@77.117.150.177)
  230. # [18:00] * julian is "here"
  231. # [18:00] <mjs> any volunteers to scribe while we wait for people to dial?
  232. # [18:00] <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
  233. # [18:00] * julian hasn't got a speakphone today
  234. # [18:00] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
  235. # [18:01] * julian hasn't got a speakerphone today
  236. # [18:01] <Zakim> +??P27
  237. # [18:01] * johndrinkwater is following on IRC
  238. # [18:01] <plh> zakim, passcode?
  239. # [18:01] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), plh
  240. # [18:01] <anne-elsewhere> Zakim, ??p27 is me
  241. # [18:01] <Zakim> +anne-elsewhere; got it
  242. # [18:01] <mjs> can someone remind me how to get Zakim to nominate a scribe?
  243. # [18:01] * anne-elsewhere is now known as anne2
  244. # [18:01] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  245. # [18:02] <anne2> Zakim, nominate scribe
  246. # [18:02] <Zakim> I don't understand 'nominate scribe', anne2
  247. # [18:02] <julian> Zakim, pick a scribe
  248. # [18:02] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose laura
  249. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Philippe
  250. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Masinter
  251. # [18:02] <mjs> Zakim, pick a scribe
  252. # [18:02] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose carlos
  253. # [18:02] * julian is now known as carlos
  254. # [18:02] * Joins: paulc (4a0d1126@128.30.52.43)
  255. # [18:02] * carlos is now known as Julian
  256. # [18:03] <mjs> Zakim, pick a scribe
  257. # [18:03] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose anne-elsewhere
  258. # [18:03] * MikeSmith can scribe
  259. # [18:03] * Joins: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@67.102.173.65)
  260. # [18:03] <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith
  261. # [18:04] <mjs> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JulSep/0048.html
  262. # [18:04] * plh zakim, who is making noise?
  263. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JulSep/0048.html
  264. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> Topic: Review of due and overdue action items
  265. # [18:04] * Zakim plh, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: laura (4%), mjs (74%)
  266. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  267. # [18:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/01-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  268. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> issue-41?
  269. # [18:05] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-41
  270. # [18:05] <trackbot> ISSUE-41 -- Decentralized extensibility -- RAISED
  271. # [18:05] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/41
  272. # [18:05] * plh zakim, who is making noise?
  273. # [18:05] * Zakim plh, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Masinter (12%), mjs (5%), carlos (58%), Mike (32%)
  274. # [18:05] <paulc> I have having a hard time hearing the speaker.
  275. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Eliot_Graff
  276. # [18:06] * plh zakim, who is making noise?
  277. # [18:06] <paulc> Carlos: Can you mute?
  278. # [18:06] * Zakim plh, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: mjs (15%), Philippe (5%)
  279. # [18:06] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30)
  280. # [18:06] * plh zakim, mute me
  281. # [18:06] * Zakim sorry, plh, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
  282. # [18:06] * plh zakim, who is on the phone?
  283. # [18:06] * Zakim sees on the phone: laura, carlos, julian (muted), Mike, mjs, Cynthia_Shelly, anne-elsewhere, [Microsoft], Philippe, Masinter, Eliot_Graff
  284. # [18:06] <plh> zakim, mute Philippe
  285. # [18:06] <Zakim> Philippe should now be muted
  286. # [18:06] * masinter 's phone is muted
  287. # [18:07] * Joins: kliehm (kliehm@88.68.91.125)
  288. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> mjs: continue the e-mail discussion on issue 41, close the action item
  289. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> mjs: any comments?
  290. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> action-97: adrian posted proposal
  291. # [18:07] * trackbot attempting to add comment notes to ACTION-97.
  292. # [18:07] <trackbot> ACTION-97 Following SVG-in-HTML thread, propose decentralized extensibility strategy for HTML5 notes added
  293. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> close action-97
  294. # [18:07] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-97.
  295. # [18:07] <trackbot> ACTION-97 Following SVG-in-HTML thread, propose decentralized extensibility strategy for HTML5 closed
  296. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> issue-7?
  297. # [18:08] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-7
  298. # [18:08] <trackbot> ISSUE-7 -- codec support and the <video> element -- OPEN
  299. # [18:08] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/7
  300. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> action-130?
  301. # [18:08] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-130
  302. # [18:08] <trackbot> ACTION-130 -- David Singer to review status of video codec positions -- due 2009-10-01 -- OPEN
  303. # [18:08] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/130
  304. # [18:08] <mjs> http://www.w3.org/2009/09/acc-media-html-gathering.html
  305. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> mjs: there will be an accessible media workshop prior to TPAC
  306. # [18:08] <Zakim> + +2134037aabb
  307. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> mjs: objections pot postponing the date on the action?
  308. # [18:09] * kliehm zakim, aabb is me
  309. # [18:09] * Zakim +kliehm; got it
  310. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> action 130 due 2009-10-15
  311. # [18:09] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  312. # [18:09] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 130
  313. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> action-130 due 2009-10-15
  314. # [18:09] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-130.
  315. # [18:09] <trackbot> ACTION-130 Review status of video codec positions due date now 2009-10-15
  316. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> issue-76?
  317. # [18:09] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-76
  318. # [18:09] <trackbot> ISSUE-76 -- Concerns about Microdata section and inclusion/exclusion of RDFa -- OPEN
  319. # [18:09] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/76
  320. # [18:09] * masinter wonders if there's a link between media accessibility and media metadata that should be considered
  321. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> mjs: Manu not here this week, we can have him give an update next wee
  322. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> s/next wee/next week/
  323. # [18:10] * plh knows that the media metadata are interesting in the gathering, so yes, some do think there is a link
  324. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> ... and figure out what the next steps are
  325. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> action-141?
  326. # [18:10] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-141
  327. # [18:10] <trackbot> ACTION-141 -- Maciej Stachowiak to document Last Call comment process -- due 2009-09-30 -- OPEN
  328. # [18:10] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/141
  329. # [18:10] * MichaelC zakim, call cooper-mit
  330. # [18:10] * Zakim ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
  331. # [18:10] <Zakim> +Cooper
  332. # [18:10] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169)
  333. # [18:10] <masinter> link issue 76 with distributed extensibility issue?
  334. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> mjs: chairs believe it's important to document our process for dealing with LC comments
  335. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> mjs: we are going to have a lot of LC comments, more than most other W3C specs in recent memory
  336. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> ... we want to be able to have a process to try to deal with most issues very quickly
  337. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> mjs: we believe we can start using the process now
  338. # [18:11] * kliehm zakim, who is on the phone?
  339. # [18:11] * Zakim sees on the phone: laura, carlos, julian (muted), Mike, mjs, Cynthia_Shelly, anne-elsewhere, [Microsoft], Philippe (muted), Masinter, Eliot_Graff, kliehm, Cooper
  340. # [18:11] <masinter> +1 for documenting process for handling WG members pre-LC comments
  341. # [18:12] * paulc test
  342. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> mjs: a need a few more days for chairs to complete the discussion
  343. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> mjs: questions or comments on this?
  344. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> masinter: I think the process for WG comments and handling also be formal
  345. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> ... start the process now, whether or not we're in LC yet
  346. # [18:12] * paulc I imagine the [Microsoft] entry from Zakim might be me (Paulc)
  347. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> action-141 due 2009-10-8
  348. # [18:13] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-141.
  349. # [18:13] <trackbot> ACTION-141 Document Last Call comment process due date now 2009-10-8
  350. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> issue-32?
  351. # [18:13] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-32
  352. # [18:13] <trackbot> ISSUE-32 -- how to provide a summary of a table, e.g. for unsighted navigation? -- OPEN
  353. # [18:13] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/32
  354. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> action-145 due 2009-10-15
  355. # [18:13] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-145.
  356. # [18:13] <trackbot> ACTION-145 Update table summary draft due date now 2009-10-15
  357. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> action-146?
  358. # [18:14] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-146
  359. # [18:14] <trackbot> ACTION-146 -- Paul Cotton to ask for a volunteer to run the testing Task Force -- due 2009-10-08 -- OPEN
  360. # [18:14] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/146
  361. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> action-148?
  362. # [18:14] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-148
  363. # [18:14] <trackbot> ACTION-148 -- Paul Cotton to recruit a Task Force facilitator for the HTML WG -- due 2009-10-08 -- OPEN
  364. # [18:14] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/148
  365. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> action-146: Paul sent email to the list
  366. # [18:14] * trackbot attempting to add comment notes to ACTION-146.
  367. # [18:14] <trackbot> ACTION-146 Ask for a volunteer to run the testing Task Force notes added
  368. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> action-148: paulc sent email to the list
  369. # [18:14] * trackbot attempting to add comment notes to ACTION-148.
  370. # [18:14] <trackbot> ACTION-148 Recruit a Task Force facilitator for the HTML WG notes added
  371. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> close action-146
  372. # [18:14] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-146.
  373. # [18:14] <trackbot> ACTION-146 Ask for a volunteer to run the testing Task Force closed
  374. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> close action-148
  375. # [18:14] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-148.
  376. # [18:14] <trackbot> ACTION-148 Recruit a Task Force facilitator for the HTML WG closed
  377. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> paulc: I have not completed yet the action that requires some discussion with Manu
  378. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> issue-54?
  379. # [18:15] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-54
  380. # [18:15] <trackbot> ISSUE-54 -- tools that can't generate <!DOCTYPE html> -- CLOSED
  381. # [18:15] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/54
  382. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> action-103?
  383. # [18:15] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-103
  384. # [18:15] <trackbot> ACTION-103 -- Lachlan Hunt to register about: URI scheme -- due 2009-09-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  385. # [18:15] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/103
  386. # [18:15] <MikeSmith> mjs: we should file an issue in the HTML5 CR component
  387. # [18:16] <paulc> BTW Action-147 from Paul is still outstanding (http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/147
  388. # [18:16] * Julian notes that Lachlan is one of the authors
  389. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> masinter: there comments on this that the author hasn't responded to
  390. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> mjs: any volunteers to report on it?
  391. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> mjs: otherwise, I am OK with closing the action
  392. # [18:17] <paulc> I changed due date on ACTION-147 to next week.
  393. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> mjs: the action came about because we added about:legacy-compat as a part of the "legacy" doctype for XSLT engines to generate
  394. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> masinter: but the draft of the about: scheme registration didn't even mention about:legacy-compat
  395. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> masinter: is there a way to track this differently?
  396. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> anne2: we have a bunch of similar cases of scheme registrations that we will need to deal with, this is not unique
  397. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> mjs: yeah, we don't need to track this separately, so seems like we can close this action
  398. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> masinter: point is to check the normative references and see if they have progressed
  399. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  400. # [18:20] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/01-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  401. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> masinter: even of the URI documents are not approved, still want to be able to track -- just asking
  402. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> mjs: part of what we need to do before PR transition is check all the normative references ourselves
  403. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> masinter: just trying to figure out how we plan to keep track of the technical dependencies
  404. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> close action-103
  405. # [18:21] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-103.
  406. # [18:21] <trackbot> ACTION-103 Register about: URI scheme closed
  407. # [18:21] <paulc> I expect we will get LC comments on the exact references and their status.
  408. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> mjs: any other comments?
  409. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> Topic: New issues this week
  410. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> issue-81?
  411. # [18:22] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-81
  412. # [18:22] <trackbot> ISSUE-81 -- Offline Web Applications section should use the term "representation" instead of "resource" -- RAISED
  413. # [18:22] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/81
  414. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> mjs: bunch of discussion on the list, mostly a matter of word choice
  415. # [18:23] <anne2> paulc, yeah, we just need to check it every now and then, but it goes for a lot of the references
  416. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> ... anybody have anything to say on this issue?
  417. # [18:24] <Julian> zakim, unmute me
  418. # [18:24] <Zakim> julian should no longer be muted
  419. # [18:24] <Julian> q+ to say that it's also about the spec being inconsistent in itself
  420. # [18:24] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  421. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> masinter: I think I'll comment on the list -- there's the URL terminology but this is separate... issue really is -- if you consider it an issue -- about whether it's a problem to have the same terms used differently in this document as compared to existing documents
  422. # [18:25] <mjs> ack Julian
  423. # [18:25] <Zakim> Julian, you wanted to say that it's also about the spec being inconsistent in itself
  424. # [18:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  425. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> masinter: and confused use of resource vs representation can lead to problems in discussion of, e.g., conneg
  426. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> Julian: it's also a problem in that use of the term "resource" is internally inconsistent in the spec itself
  427. # [18:25] <Julian> zakim, mute me
  428. # [18:25] <Zakim> julian should now be muted
  429. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> mjs: other comments?
  430. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> issue-82?
  431. # [18:26] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-82
  432. # [18:26] <trackbot> ISSUE-82 -- Suggested replacement for head/@profile does not provide for disambiguation -- RAISED
  433. # [18:26] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/82
  434. # [18:26] * anne2 thought it was clear from the context?
  435. # [18:26] * anne2 hasn't found issues with that in the offline webapps section; plenty of other issues though
  436. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> mjs: this is about details of the UA processing requirements for head/@profile
  437. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> issue-83?
  438. # [18:26] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-83
  439. # [18:26] <trackbot> ISSUE-83 -- Use of the dt and dd elements in figure and details content models -- RAISED
  440. # [18:26] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/83
  441. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> mjs: this is capturing the objection that this reuse of dt and dd extends their semantics
  442. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> mjs: any comments?
  443. # [18:28] <MikeSmith> issue-84?
  444. # [18:28] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-84
  445. # [18:28] <trackbot> ISSUE-84 -- Should spec discourage use of "legacy" doctypes? -- RAISED
  446. # [18:28] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/84
  447. # [18:28] * Quits: myakura (myakura@123.224.118.12) (Quit: Leaving...)
  448. # [18:28] <MikeSmith> mjs: we discussed the about:legacy form of the doctype
  449. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> q+ to ask for clarification
  450. # [18:29] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  451. # [18:29] <Julian> zakim, unmute me
  452. # [18:29] <Zakim> julian should no longer be muted
  453. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> Julian, is this about about:legacy doctype or about the XHTML 1.0 and HTML 4.01 doctypes?
  454. # [18:30] <mjs> End of section 9.1.1
  455. # [18:30] <anne2> "The DOCTYPE legacy string should not be used unless the document is generated from a system that cannot output the shorter string.
  456. # [18:30] <anne2> "
  457. # [18:30] <Julian> Mike, originally the former
  458. # [18:30] <anne2> -- http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#doctype-legacy-string
  459. # [18:31] <MikeSmith> Julian: I raised it because of the about:legacy doctype, but in discussion about this on IRC, the point was made that it doesn't make sense to discourage any conforming doctypes that trigger standards mode
  460. # [18:32] * anne2 agrees with mjs
  461. # [18:32] <Julian> zakim, mute me
  462. # [18:32] <Zakim> julian should now be muted
  463. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> Topic: Status of Call For Consensus emails
  464. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> mjs: I sent a CfC: Create Testing Task Force message
  465. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> mjs: so if you have objections or comments, follow up to that e-mail
  466. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> mjs: any questions or comments now?
  467. # [18:34] * masinter wonders if consensus is needed for procedural issues like asking people to work offline to produce something for WG to consider
  468. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> mjs: I also sent a CfC: Create HTML Accessibility Task Force message
  469. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> ... but I did not cite the actual work statement
  470. # [18:34] * Quits: deltab (deltab@82.36.30.34) (Ping timeout)
  471. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> ... paulc followed up by posting a link to the actual work statement
  472. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> ... and I will follow up to make clear that everybody should review the actual work statement
  473. # [18:34] * Joins: deltab (deltab@82.36.30.34)
  474. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> ... my mistake..
  475. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> mjs: questions or comments?
  476. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> Topic: Scribe for next meeting
  477. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> mjs: I think rubys will be chairing
  478. # [18:35] * plh will only scribe if he gets cookies
  479. # [18:35] * plh zakim, unmute me
  480. # [18:35] * Zakim sorry, plh, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
  481. # [18:36] <MikeSmith> mjs: I you volunteer to scribe, you will receive many brownie points
  482. # [18:36] * anne2 is tempted now
  483. # [18:36] * paulc is plh trying to volunteer to scribe?
  484. # [18:36] <MikeSmith> plh, you volunteering?
  485. # [18:36] <plh> yes, I volunteered
  486. # [18:36] <anne2> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  487. # [18:36] <Zakim> On the phone I see laura, carlos, julian (muted), Mike, mjs, Cynthia_Shelly, anne-elsewhere, [Microsoft], Philippe (muted), Masinter, Eliot_Graff, kliehm, Cooper
  488. # [18:36] * Quits: jmb (jmb@152.78.68.189) (Ping timeout)
  489. # [18:36] * plh weird, I'm muted somehow
  490. # [18:37] <plh> zakim, who's muted?
  491. # [18:37] <Zakim> I see julian, Philippe muted
  492. # [18:37] <MikeSmith> scribe will be plh
  493. # [18:37] <anne2> Zakim, unmute philippe
  494. # [18:37] <Zakim> Philippe should no longer be muted
  495. # [18:37] * rubys thanks plh
  496. # [18:37] <MikeSmith> mjs: any final questions or comments before we adjourn?
  497. # [18:37] <MikeSmith> masinter: there will be an IETF meeting the week after the TPAC
  498. # [18:37] <paulc> special hotel rate for TPAC expires on Oct 12.
  499. # [18:38] <MikeSmith> masinter: anybody else planning to be at the IETF meeting?
  500. # [18:38] <masinter> i'll email it
  501. # [18:38] <masinter> it's in Japan, MikeSmith
  502. # [18:38] <Julian> http://www.ietf.org/meeting/76/
  503. # [18:38] <MikeSmith> mjs: yeah, we should highlight that to the group
  504. # [18:38] * anne2 is already looking forward to the travel planning fun for TPAC
  505. # [18:38] <MikeSmith> masinter, I will probably still be in the US that week
  506. # [18:38] <masinter> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki
  507. # [18:38] <Julian> IETF 76 - Hiroshima, Japan November 8-13 2009
  508. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> [adjourned]
  509. # [18:39] <Zakim> -julian
  510. # [18:39] <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
  511. # [18:39] <Zakim> -Masinter
  512. # [18:39] <Zakim> -Philippe
  513. # [18:39] <cardona507> thanks
  514. # [18:39] <Zakim> -anne-elsewhere
  515. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  516. # [18:40] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/01-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  517. # [18:40] <Zakim> -Cooper
  518. # [18:40] <Zakim> -carlos
  519. # [18:40] <Zakim> -Eliot_Graff
  520. # [18:40] <Zakim> -kliehm
  521. # [18:40] * Parts: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30)
  522. # [18:40] <Zakim> -laura
  523. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
  524. # [18:40] <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
  525. # [18:40] <Zakim> -Mike
  526. # [18:40] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@67.180.160.250) (Quit: cardona507)
  527. # [18:40] * Quits: kliehm (kliehm@88.68.91.125) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458])
  528. # [18:40] <Zakim> -mjs
  529. # [18:40] * Quits: paulc (4a0d1126@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC 0.5.9 (2006/06/06))
  530. # [18:40] * anne2 is now known as lachy_
  531. # [18:40] * Quits: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@67.102.173.65) (Quit: When the chips are down, well, the buffalo is empty)
  532. # [18:41] * Quits: lachy_ (Lachy@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Leaving)
  533. # [18:41] * Joins: pimpbot (pimpbot@80.68.92.65)
  534. # [18:49] * Quits: mjs (mjs@69.181.42.237) (Quit: mjs)
  535. # [18:58] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@217.44.35.222) (Client exited)
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  540. # [19:30] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  541. # [19:30] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  542. # [19:30] <Zakim> Attendees were laura, carlos, Mike, julian, mjs, Cynthia_Shelly, anne-elsewhere, [Microsoft], Philippe, Masinter, Eliot_Graff, +2134037aabb, kliehm, Cooper
  543. # [19:31] * Quits: deltab (deltab@82.36.30.34) (Ping timeout)
  544. # [19:33] <plh> zakim, bye
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  580. # Session Close: Fri Oct 02 00:00:01 2009

The end :)