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- # Session Start: Wed Oct 14 00:00:00 2009
- # Session Ident: #html-wg
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- # [06:43] * Topic is 'Pursuing conformance solutions for the N-body gravitational system known as "the Web", and in general, collectively performing various acts of unparalleled hubris (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/)'
- # [06:43] * Set by MikeSmith on Thu Jun 18 07:02:08
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- # [08:44] * Topic is 'Pursuing conformance solutions for the N-body gravitational system known as "the Web", and in general, collectively performing various acts of unparalleled hubris (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/)'
- # [08:44] * Set by MikeSmith on Thu Jun 18 07:02:08
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- # [10:38] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7843] Please make 'abort', ' loadend' and 'emptied' use "queue a task". Firing them sync is annoying to implement and doesn't seem to solve any problem. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Oct/0187.html>
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- # [10:40] <pimpbot> planet: XML on the Web <http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2009/xml-on-the-web/>
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- # [11:09] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Make changing src='' call load(). (whatwg r4131) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Oct/0057.html>
- # [11:09] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7915] New: “itemref†element is missing, <http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/semantics.html#itemref> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Oct/0189.html> ** [Bug 7834] "If a new element is inserted between the two nodes that define pointer" - s/element/node/ <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Oct/0188.html>
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- # [12:09] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Make media elements not fire progress events, just regular events, since we don't know what to put in their 'loaded' attributes. (whatwg r4133) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Oct/0059.html> ** hixie: <video> and <audio> never fire 'load' anymore. (whatwg r4132) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Oct/0058.html>
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- # [13:09] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Make the microdata DOM API more consistent with other APIs. (camelCase) (whatwg r4139) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Oct/0060.html>
- # [13:16] <Julian> MikeSmith, out of curiosity: what's the status of the RDFa-in-HTML WPWD?
- # [13:17] <Julian> s/WPWD/FPWD/
- # [13:18] <MikeSmith> Julian: will be published tomorrow
- # [13:19] <MikeSmith> btw, it seems I will be attending the HyBi and IRI BOFs at IETF 76
- # [13:21] <Julian> hey, great
- # [13:21] <Julian> (both)
- # [13:31] <Julian> Mike, would you know if we had WG members with ePub format background?
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- # [13:39] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Microdata: Rename .content to .itemValue and make it more useful. (whatwg r4140) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Oct/0061.html>
- # [13:45] <Hixie> Julian: fyi, the IETF actually asked us to move websockets to the IETF. So we already know they want to standardise it.
- # [13:45] <Philip> Maybe they just want to kill it
- # [13:46] <Hixie> they're not going about it very effectively if so :-)
- # [13:53] <Julian> Hixie, but "moving it" implies that the actuall spec development happens in the IETF, not somewhere else.
- # [13:54] <Julian> If you just want to *publish* through the IETF, the answer usually is "use Informational RFC".
- # [13:54] <anne2> isn't it discussed on hybi then?
- # [13:55] <Julian> This was about a mail where Ian told us about feedback he got from people outside the mailing list.
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- # [13:56] <anne2> isn't that always the case?
- # [13:57] <Hixie> Julian: personally i'd like to publish in the w3c
- # [13:57] <Hixie> Julian: it's the IETF who wants us to publish through the IETF
- # [13:58] <Julian> Feedback from outside is ok, as long its handled properly. If this was a WG, and there wasn't consensus for something, the chairs would have a hard time with this.
- # [13:58] <Julian> So if this is supposed to become an IETF thing, the people working on it should have their discussion there.
- # [13:59] <Julian> An IETF WG usually is not a publication mechanism for things developed somewhere else.
- # [13:59] <Julian> It's possible to do so, but then that should be reflected in the charter.
- # [14:00] <Julian> Hixie, "publish through the IETF" can mean many things; an Informational RFC is one of these.
- # [14:00] <Hixie> "Informational RFC" is the same as a W3C Note, right?
- # [14:00] <Hixie> i.e. it's meaningless, normatively?
- # [14:02] <Julian> no, it's not meaningless
- # [14:02] <Julian> It's just not on the IETF standards track
- # [14:02] <Hixie> what's the value of the IETF standards track?
- # [14:02] <Julian> If you choose to implement it, it's normative. If you don't, it isn't. That isn't different from anything else.
- # [14:03] <Hixie> basically, why would i care one way or the other?
- # [14:03] <Julian> More control by the IESG, presumably.
- # [14:03] <Julian> I think for most people, it really doesn't matter.
- # [14:04] <Hixie> then why did you bring it up?
- # [14:04] <Hixie> i'm confused
- # [14:05] <Julian> Because it matters to the IETF, and to the WG-to-be. The point of forming a WG is to produce standards track documents here.
- # [14:05] <Hixie> why does it matter to the WG-to-be?
- # [14:05] <Hixie> and why does it matter to the IETF?
- # [14:07] <Julian> If a WG is formed in order to define a bidirectional protocol, then the assumption is that it'll be developed according to the IETF process rules. If it isn't then this should be called out in the charter beforehand.
- # [14:07] <Julian> And, of course, one of the reasons why process *does* matter is IPR.
- # [14:08] <Hixie> and the IETF process rules prevent people from having conversations with a spec's editor outside the list?
- # [14:08] <Julian> No
- # [14:09] <Julian> But just because they do not prevent it doesn't mean it's a good thing when people of significance to the spec development do that outside the process
- # [14:09] <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Remove 'loadend' event from media elements. (whatwg r4142) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Oct/0063.html> ** hixie: Fix scripted examples for microdata (whatwg r4141) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Oct/0062.html>
- # [14:09] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7917] New: document.close() should attempt to tokenize <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Oct/0190.html>
- # [14:10] <Hixie> and that would be a reason for the WG to not work on that spec?
- # [14:10] <Hixie> it seems weird that you would suggest that the WG would want to _not_ work on the spec that is getting implementor feedback, even if that feedback is off-list
- # [14:12] <Julian> what I said is that if people who are important for the contents of the spec do not want to do that on the WG's mailing list, that will be a problem.
- # [14:12] <Julian> the simplest way to fix this is to encourage them to join the mailing list.
- # [14:12] <Hixie> you went further than that, you said it would be grounds to not maket it a WG deliverable
- # [14:12] <Julian> I think that's pretty easy to grasp, so I'm not sure how else to explain it
- # [14:13] <Julian> If the spec is known to be developed somewhere else, it would be a reason not to treat it as if developed by the WG, and then it would be harder to put it onto the standards track.
- # [14:15] <Julian> how about addressing the issue, by agreeing that, *if* there'll be a WG, and *if* that WG wants to work on that spec, discussion should move to the WG's mailing list?
- # [14:15] <Julian> is there a problem with that?
- # [14:16] <Hixie> discussion will happen where discussion happens
- # [14:16] <Hixie> i'm not going to ignore people talking to me
- # [14:17] <Julian> so how do you deal with the IPR issue?
- # [14:17] <Hixie> what IPR issue?
- # [14:18] <Julian> http://www.ietf.org/about/note-well.html
- # [14:18] <pimpbot> Title: Note Well (at www.ietf.org)
- # [14:18] <Julian> there's a problem if you take input that hasn't been submitted according to these rules
- # [14:18] <Hixie> could you be more precise? that page doesn't have any rules on it, and links to 37 pages' worth of rules
- # [14:19] <Hixie> don't be silly, the IETF doesn't require that we ignore feedback from outside the IETF
- # [14:19] <Hixie> that would be ridiculous
- # [14:19] <Julian> I didn't say that
- # [14:19] <Julian> I was talking about contributions
- # [14:20] <Hixie> i write every word of the spec
- # [14:20] <Hixie> does that address the IPR concern?
- # [14:20] <Julian> that doesn't make you the owner of the IPR
- # [14:21] <Julian> anyway, this is something you'll need to discuss with the WG chairs and area directors, not me
- # [14:22] <Hixie> well, you brought it up :-)
- # [14:22] <Hixie> i don't know what you mean by "contributions"
- # [14:22] <Hixie> if feedback doesn't count
- # [14:22] <Hixie> and text isn't it
- # [14:22] <Hixie> but i'm happy to not discuss it, i was only doing so because you mentioned it
- # [14:22] <anne2> it's features prolly
- # [14:23] <anne2> just like at W3C
- # [14:23] <Hixie> feedback contains features, so that can't be it
- # [14:23] <anne2> maybe Julian makes some distinction there
- # [14:31] <hsivonen> do the other people on HyBi still want to do reverse HTTP instead of WebSocket?
- # [14:39] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7902] ijhugytfdsdfgdsd <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Oct/0192.html> ** [Bug 7894] what is <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Oct/0191.html>
- # [14:41] <pimpbot> planet: View Source Tutorial: Sticky Notes With HTML5 and CSS3 <http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ajaxian/~3/rq8ioDc5ASg/view-source-tutorial-sticky-notes-with-html5-and-css3>
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- # [15:36] <anne2> hsivonen, it's not really clear
- # [15:36] <anne2> some people seem to want multiplexing
- # [15:36] <anne2> haven't seen anything else recently
- # [15:42] <pimpbot> planet: Why designers should care about HTML5 <http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/html5doctor/~3/uQY2U7vtRtg/>
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- # [16:16] * Ralph zakim, this is html
- # [16:16] * Zakim ok, Ralph; that matches IA_XHTML2()9:45AM
- # [16:16] * Ralph zakim, who's on the call?
- # [16:16] * Zakim sees on the phone: McCarron, +0468645aaaa, +04670602aabb, Steven, +95247aacc
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- # [16:17] <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has been moved to #xhtml by Steven
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- # [16:53] <gsnedders|work> Do we have a charter for the testing TF yet?
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- # [17:39] <anne2> how do I extend the not yet standardized Link header with an additional link-param that Mark refuses to add?
- # [17:40] <anne2> if nobody comes up with something I'll ask him
- # [17:43] <Julian> which param?
- # [17:44] <anne2> media
- # [17:44] <pimpbot> planet: CSSOM: New Beginning <http://annevankesteren.nl/2009/10/cssom-new-beginning>
- # [17:44] <anne2> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#requirements-on-user-agents-implementing0 says how it ought to work
- # [17:44] <pimpbot> Title: CSSOM (at dev.w3.org)
- # [17:45] <anne2> but I suppose I should register it or something to make it "official"
- # [17:47] <Julian> the spec on title* won't work, unless there's some other place in the spec that deals with the encoding
- # [17:47] <anne2> doesn't his spec do that?
- # [17:47] <anne2> or whatever his spec references
- # [17:48] <Julian> yes, but you simply say "Let title be the value of the first of all the title and title* parameters. If there are no such parameters it is the empty string. "
- # [17:49] <anne2> would "decoded value" work?
- # [17:49] <Julian> it appears that the media parameter is specific to the stylesheet link relation
- # [17:49] <anne2> not really
- # [17:49] <Julian> yes, "decoded per ...."
- # [17:49] <anne2> can you please fill in the dots?
- # [17:50] <Julian> as per RFC 2231
- # [17:50] <Julian> or, if you can wait a bit
- # [17:50] <Julian> http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-reschke-rfc2231-in-http-latest.html
- # [17:50] <anne2> maybe I should ask for a concept that defines the collection of titles
- # [17:50] <pimpbot> Title: Application of RFC 2231 Encoding to Hypertext Transfer Protocol (HTTP) Headers (at greenbytes.de)
- # [17:50] <anne2> of which I can then pick the first
- # [17:51] <anne2> because if each link relation spec needs to define this that'd be madness
- # [17:51] <anne2> anyway, media applies to all relation types
- # [17:51] <Julian> so what's the semantics of media, if not specific to stylesheets?
- # [17:51] <anne2> e.g. <link rel=alternate media=print href=...>
- # [17:54] <Julian> i agree that it applies to alternate as well, but I'm not convinced it's generic.
- # [17:54] <Julian> the fact that HTML's link element has it though supports you view
- # [17:56] <anne2> any kind of relation could have a document in another media afaict
- # [17:56] <anne2> just like it can be in a different type
- # [17:58] <Julian> rel=author href="mailto:x@x.com"
- # [17:58] <Julian> where's the media aspect here?
- # [17:59] <Julian> but of course it's not necessary that any param applies to all link types
- # [17:59] <anne2> where's the type aspect there?
- # [18:00] <anne2> none of this really answers my question though
- # [18:00] <Julian> I would recommend to send a proposal, or to send a reminder with a link to the initial proposal
- # [18:01] <anne2> it was already rejected
- # [18:01] <anne2> anyway, thanks
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- # [18:02] <Julian> one issue is what shoud Mark's spec reference for this? HTML 4.01 link/@media?
- # [18:02] <anne2> Media Queries?
- # [18:03] <anne2> anyway, he doesn't want it, so I'm wondering how to register an extension
- # [18:03] <Julian> that's an editor's draft. For a proposed standard you'd need something else
- # [18:03] <gsnedders|work> Julian: It's a CR
- # [18:04] <gsnedders|work> Julian: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/
- # [18:04] <pimpbot> Title: Media Queries (at www.w3.org)
- # [18:04] <Julian> oh, i followed the link from the HML5 spec which leads somewhere else
- # [18:05] <Julian> it leads to dev.w3.org/csswg which is the editor's draft
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- # [18:10] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 6606] generic 3rd-party <mark>, Smart Tags, and Accelerators prevention <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Oct/0195.html> ** [Bug 7920] New: media queries ref <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Oct/0194.html> ** [Bug 7918] New: prefetching: allow site to deny <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Oct/0193.html>
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- # [18:15] <anne2> it's pretty close to REC
- # [18:15] <anne2> just need to sort out the test suite
- # [18:15] <anne2> need to find some volunteer for that or do it myself I suppose
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The end :)