/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-11-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Nov 05 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  23. # [01:15] <MikeSmith> .t gsnedders
  24. # [01:15] <phenny> Thu, 05 Nov 2009 00:15:22 GMT
  25. # [01:16] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: That's no Europe/Stockholm
  26. # [01:16] <gsnedders> *not
  27. # [01:17] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: ah, yeah, I forgot you had relocated
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  30. # [01:19] <MikeSmith> .t gsnedders
  31. # [01:19] <phenny> Thu, 05 Nov 2009 01:19:13 CET
  32. # [01:19] <gsnedders> There we go.
  33. # [01:19] <gsnedders> I really ought to try harder at this whole sleep thing ;P
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  35. # [01:20] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: sleep is for the weak
  36. # [01:20] <gsnedders> :)
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  38. # [01:29] <MikeSmith> .t Linköping
  39. # [01:29] <phenny> MikeSmith: Sorry, I don't know about the 'Linköping' timezone.
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  42. # [01:30] <MikeSmith> .t Linköping
  43. # [01:30] <phenny> MikeSmith: Sorry, I don't know about the 'Linköping' timezone.
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  46. # [01:31] <MikeSmith> .t Linköping
  47. # [01:31] <phenny> MikeSmith: Sorry, I don't know about the 'Linköping' timezone.
  48. # [01:31] <MikeSmith> phoo
  49. # [01:40] <Philip> .t Linköping
  50. # [01:40] <phenny> Philip: Sorry, I don't know about the 'Linköping' timezone.
  51. # [01:41] <MikeSmith> python
  52. # [01:41] <MikeSmith> this is an a config file with magic encoding comment to give the encoding as UTF=8
  53. # [01:41] <MikeSmith> UTF-8
  54. # [01:42] <MikeSmith> do I still have to do the u'' thing?
  55. # [01:45] <Philip> Probably
  56. # [01:45] <Philip> (assuming Python 2.x)
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  59. # [01:51] <MikeSmith> .t Linköping
  60. # [01:51] <phenny> MikeSmith: Sorry, I don't know about the 'Linköping' timezone.
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  63. # [01:51] <MikeSmith> .t Linköping
  64. # [01:51] <phenny> Thu, 05 Nov 2009 02:51:53 EET
  65. # [01:52] * Philip gets out the party poppers
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  81. # [03:00] <MikeSmith> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21288
  82. # [03:00] <pimpbot> Title: Bug 21288 Implement HTML5's sandbox attribute for iframes (at bugs.webkit.org)
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  91. # [03:38] <pimpbot> planet: HTML 5 Doctype? <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1677974/html-5-doctype>
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  117. # [05:57] <battletoads> hi
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  119. # [05:58] <battletoads> hello?
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  135. # [08:19] <Olivers> Hi all.
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  137. # [08:40] <pimpbot> planet: ugly hack for some weird html5lib thing I can't fix right now <http://hg.diveintohtml5.org/hgweb.cgi/rev/8be36ef7c1a47b97e0bc3cda872c7d3e11d91f11>
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  140. # [12:05] * Disconnected
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  143. # [12:06] * Topic is 'Pursuing conformance solutions for the N-body gravitational system known as "the Web", and in general, collectively performing various acts of unparalleled hubris (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/)'
  144. # [12:06] * Set by MikeSmith on Thu Jun 18 06:02:08
  145. # [12:18] <thugbot> [localhost] MikeSmith: I can't reach bugzilla
  146. # [12:22] <hsivonen> it seems to me that Content MathML wants to be Lisp
  147. # [12:23] <jgraham> All W3C technologies keep adding features until they are lisp with angle brackets?
  148. # [12:25] <jgraham> Doesn't really have the same ring to it
  149. # [12:26] * hsivonen can't remember how Scheme deals with namespaces
  150. # [12:27] <hsivonen> that is, I don't remember if symbols are app-global or not
  151. # [12:27] <hsivonen> does Lisp have Namespaces?
  152. # [12:28] <hsivonen> the word "namespace" doesn't appear in the index of SICP
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  157. # [14:39] * Topic is 'Pursuing conformance solutions for the N-body gravitational system known as "the Web", and in general, collectively performing various acts of unparalleled hubris (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/)'
  158. # [14:39] * Set by MikeSmith on Thu Jun 18 06:02:08
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  177. # [17:28] <annevk> anything happening so far? I overslept as well...
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  187. # [17:44] <paulc> Currently 8:43 PT and 20 WG present
  188. # [17:44] <paulc> Awaiting co-chairs and will start soon
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  196. # [17:47] <paulc> Meeting outline is at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Oct/1032.html
  197. # [17:47] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG meeting at TPAC - unconference style from Maciej Stachowiak on 2009-10-28 (public-html@w3.org from October 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  198. # [17:48] * timely wonders if zakim is available
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  214. # [18:02] * manu is uninformed (generally and specifically) - do we have a telecon today?
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  217. # [18:02] <Julian> Manu, no we don't
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  219. # [18:02] <manu> Thanks, Julian. :)
  220. # [18:02] <Julian> Manu, but we'll log things to the IRC channel
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  222. # [18:03] <manu> oh, so the TPAC meeting is being logged to IRC?
  223. # [18:03] <Julian> We are encouraged to self-scribe what we're saying
  224. # [18:03] <Julian> We can also relay back your feedback into the room
  225. # [18:03] <manu> groovy... thanks to the TPAC scribes/relays :)
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  227. # [18:04] <Julian> ...Paul Cotton is explaining the logistics...
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  232. # [18:05] <Julian> ...joint meeting with TAG at 2pm...
  233. # [18:05] * timely thanks scribes
  234. # [18:05] <Julian> ...2 more joint sessions tomorrow...
  235. # [18:06] <Julian> ...W3D consortium 9am...
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  239. # [18:06] <Julian> ....joint meeting with TC39 later on...
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  241. # [18:07] <Julian> ...X3D at 10 pm...
  242. # [18:07] <Julian> am
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  245. # [18:08] <Julian> ...we'll start 9am tomorrow...
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  247. # [18:09] <Julian> ...introductions...
  248. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> Joe Williams
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  253. # [18:13] <Julian> ...collection suggestions for breakout sessions...
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  256. # [18:14] <Julian> Cynthia: HTML semantics vs Aria
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  260. # [18:15] <Julian> Frank: Accessibility and Canvas
  261. # [18:16] <Julian> Sylvia: video accessibility
  262. # [18:16] * Julian Mike, do we need to invite a logger to the channel?
  263. # [18:16] <annevk> RRSAgent is here
  264. # [18:17] <Julian> Mike: testing
  265. # [18:17] * MikeSmith Julian - yeah, being logged already
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  267. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  268. # [18:17] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  269. # [18:18] <Julian> Tony: decentralized extensibility
  270. # [18:18] <Julian> Nikunj: client-controlled caching
  271. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> @bug 8152
  272. # [18:19] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88) (Connection reset by peer)
  273. # [18:19] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8152 contributor@whatwg.org, P3, NEW, Consider removing the <progress> and <meter> fallback magic
  274. # [18:19] <Julian> Ian: progress and meter
  275. # [18:19] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88)
  276. # [18:19] <Julian> Joe: <object>
  277. # [18:20] <Julian> Brian: client-side push
  278. # [18:21] <Julian> ...: lcoal storage concurrency problems, possible solutions
  279. # [18:21] * Joins: JonathanJ (hollobit@72.254.12.13)
  280. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> Julian: profile attribute
  281. # [18:22] <timely> s/lcoal/local/
  282. # [18:22] <Julian> Julian: profile attribute
  283. # [18:23] <Julian> Julian: RDFa vs microdata (what should be in the base spec)
  284. # [18:23] <Julian> Paul points out this may overlap with TAG session
  285. # [18:23] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
  286. # [18:23] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ
  287. # [18:23] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  288. # [18:24] <Julian> Joe: author/UA duties for the two mime types
  289. # [18:24] <Julian> Steve F.: canvas in or out?
  290. # [18:25] <Julian> Tantek: predefined vocabularies and coordination with other standards groups
  291. # [18:25] <Julian> Mike: authoring material
  292. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> or materials aimed at authors
  293. # [18:27] <Julian> Patrick: HTML and MathML together
  294. # [18:28] <Julian> Paul: mentions WG thread on MathML feedback
  295. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> close action-157
  296. # [18:29] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-157.
  297. # [18:29] <trackbot> ACTION-157 Request two smaller rooms (big enough for 10-12 people) for breakout sessions closed
  298. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> action-127?
  299. # [18:29] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-127
  300. # [18:29] <trackbot> ACTION-127 -- Paul Cotton to establish process for "official WG response" to other WG's RFC on LC drafts -- due 2009-10-01 -- OPEN
  301. # [18:29] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/127
  302. # [18:29] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-127 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  303. # [18:30] <Julian> Paul: mentions cross-wg review of other specs
  304. # [18:31] <Julian> Ian: MathML XML entities
  305. # [18:31] <Julian> ...character entities...
  306. # [18:32] * Joins: fantasai (fantasai@66.252.19.122)
  307. # [18:32] <fantasai> Is anyone taking minutes?
  308. # [18:32] <fantasai> ookkay
  309. # [18:32] <fantasai> Proposed topics
  310. # [18:32] * Julian i was but if you want to take over...
  311. # [18:32] <fantasai> 1. Cynthia - HTML vs Aria semantics
  312. # [18:33] <fantasai> 2. Accessibility in Canvas
  313. # [18:33] <fantasai> 3. Accessibility in video (A11y? video?)
  314. # [18:33] <fantasai> 4. Kris - Testing
  315. # [18:33] <fantasai> 5. Tony - DCE
  316. # [18:33] <fantasai> 6. Nicunj - Caching
  317. # [18:33] * Joins: SCain (sally.cain@72.254.84.49)
  318. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> action-130
  319. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> action-130?
  320. # [18:33] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-130
  321. # [18:33] <trackbot> ACTION-130 -- David Singer to review status of video codec positions -- due 2009-11-05 -- OPEN
  322. # [18:33] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/130
  323. # [18:33] <fantasai> 7. Ian - 8152-progress in metering (?)
  324. # [18:33] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-130 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  325. # [18:33] <timely> s/xunj/kunj/
  326. # [18:33] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30)
  327. # [18:33] <timely> s/cunj/kunj/
  328. # [18:33] <fantasai> 8. Joe - Object tag
  329. # [18:33] * Joins: mattmay (mattmay@72.254.12.175)
  330. # [18:33] <fantasai> 9. Connectionless push
  331. # [18:34] <fantasai> 10. Local storage recurrency problems, possible solutions
  332. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> scribe: fantasai
  333. # [18:34] <fantasai> 11. Profile attribute (part of DCE?)
  334. # [18:34] * Quits: w3org (derekr@69.198.205.66) (Quit: Leaving.)
  335. # [18:34] <fantasai> 12. Next steps on RDFa + microdata
  336. # [18:34] <fantasai> 13. Authors vs browser responsibilities
  337. # [18:34] <fantasai> 14. Status on canvas - inout?
  338. # [18:35] <fantasai> 15. Pre-defined microdata vocab (tantek)
  339. # [18:35] <fantasai> 16. Authoring materials (mat. aimed @ authors)
  340. # [18:35] <fantasai> 17. HTML + MathML together
  341. # [18:35] <fantasai> 18. MathML update - XML character entities
  342. # [18:35] <fantasai> 19. Video codecs (ACTION-130)
  343. # [18:35] <fantasai> 20. HTML Media type (Issue-53)
  344. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> i/Proposed topics/scribe: fantasai
  345. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  346. # [18:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  347. # [18:35] <ArtB> ACTION-130?
  348. # [18:35] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-130
  349. # [18:35] <trackbot> ACTION-130 -- David Singer to review status of video codec positions -- due 2009-11-05 -- OPEN
  350. # [18:35] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/130
  351. # [18:35] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  352. # [18:35] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-130 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  353. # [18:36] * Quits: paulc (48fe77fa@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
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  355. # [18:36] * Joins: PIon (chatzilla@72.254.108.83)
  356. # [18:36] <fantasai> The chair notes that the HTMLWG should review Last Call for ??, and that several members have volunteered to review the draft
  357. # [18:37] * ArtB grins DCE==namespace
  358. # [18:37] <fantasai> Suggests that we collect comments and send them, not worry about trying to get consensus on a WG position
  359. # [18:37] <annevk> ISSUE-53 is deferred to after CR
  360. # [18:37] <annevk> "PR blocker"
  361. # [18:37] <fantasai> Suggests that the HTMLWG should remember to review drafts of related WGs, not be too introspective into the work of this WG only
  362. # [18:37] <fantasai> There are 15 open slots
  363. # [18:37] <annevk> maciej enters
  364. # [18:38] <Julian> Anne, but there's a controversy about what to do, and we should talk about that.
  365. # [18:38] * fantasai is the chair speaking Paul Cotton?
  366. # [18:38] <Julian> yes
  367. # [18:38] <fantasai> Chair asking whether it's worth breaking out
  368. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> s/Chair/Paul
  369. # [18:39] <fantasai> Paul: Shoudl testing be a break-out session?
  370. # [18:39] * Joins: mjs (mjs@72.254.59.20)
  371. # [18:39] <gsnedders|work> s/dl/ld/
  372. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> s/The chair notes/Paul notes
  373. # [18:39] * gsnedders|work is not going to do what he did last year and just spend the entire meeting correcting fantasai's typos :)
  374. # [18:39] <fantasai> some comment about parallelization, free slots might be only 6
  375. # [18:39] <fantasai> Maciej takes over
  376. # [18:40] * Joins: oedipus (4615bbaa@128.30.52.43)
  377. # [18:40] * fantasai doesn't think it's that important, as long as people fix the things that are wrong or missing :)
  378. # [18:40] * ArtB thinks the agenda is: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Oct/1032.html
  379. # [18:40] <fantasai> Maciej: We had space for a total of 15 break-out sessions, there are 20 suggested topics
  380. # [18:40] <fantasai> Maciej: Does anyone think any of these could fit into a half-size time slot (45min)?
  381. # [18:41] <fantasai> Ian suggests 7 and 18
  382. # [18:41] <fantasai> Anne suggests 17
  383. # [18:41] <fantasai> ?: 10 is half-size
  384. # [18:41] <fantasai> ??: 9 as well
  385. # [18:41] <fantasai> Maciej is skeptical
  386. # [18:41] * gsnedders|work can't really do that when he isn't there this time :)
  387. # [18:41] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  388. # [18:41] <fantasai> Tantek: 15
  389. # [18:42] * Joins: prolix (4615bbaa@128.30.52.43)
  390. # [18:42] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  391. # [18:42] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html ArtB
  392. # [18:42] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  393. # [18:42] <pimpbot> planet: Will Visual Studio 2010 support HTML 5? <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1682180/will-visual-studio-2010-support-html-5>
  394. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> meeting: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara
  395. # [18:42] <fantasai> Maciej: So we've got 5 half-slot sessions, that takes away 2 slots
  396. # [18:42] <fantasai> Maciej: that's still 18 / 15
  397. # [18:43] <prolix> q+ is there a phone bridge?
  398. # [18:43] <fantasai> ???: If we can discuss the object topic 8 in context of decentralized extensibility..
  399. # [18:43] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30)
  400. # [18:43] <prolix> q+ to ask if there is a pone bridge
  401. # [18:43] <fantasai> ????, Tantek: 11
  402. # [18:43] <fantasai> Maciej: So 11, 5, 8 all one sesssion
  403. # [18:43] <tantek> fantasai - that was julian
  404. # [18:43] <Eliot_Graff> i do not think there's a phone bridge
  405. # [18:43] <tantek> that mentioned the profile attribute
  406. # [18:44] <fantasai> s/????/Julian/
  407. # [18:44] * fantasai tantek, I'm not going to be cleaning up these minuts, so just replace whatever you think should be replaced
  408. # [18:44] * prolix thanks, elitoGraff
  409. # [18:45] <fantasai> Maciej: We may have some extra time since it seems we might finish early with this session
  410. # [18:45] <fantasai> Maciej: Today we have 7 slots plus 1 slot that is a joint session with the TAG
  411. # [18:46] <fantasai> Maciej draws out the schedule slots
  412. # [18:46] <fantasai> There are 8 slots in two columns on the board right now
  413. # [18:46] <prolix> wil there be a phone bridge or no?
  414. # [18:47] <fantasai> Maciej draws another slot table for Friday
  415. # [18:47] <gsnedders|work> prolix: Not
  416. # [18:48] <prolix> thanks, gseddrs
  417. # [18:48] * fantasai prolix, you don't need a phone bridge, just convince them to time your topic for when I'm available to minute :P
  418. # [18:48] <fantasai> Maciej suggests putting the combination sessions into the longer slots
  419. # [18:48] * gsnedders|work notes fantasai is egoistical :P
  420. # [18:48] * prolix thanks, fantasai <grin>
  421. # [18:49] * fantasai isn't available this afternoon
  422. # [18:49] * fantasai and not tomorrow 9am-10am, will be in transit from SF
  423. # [18:50] * Quits: rubys (rubys@72.254.102.5) (Quit: Leaving.)
  424. # [18:50] <fantasai> Slots for today are 11-12:30, 14-15:30, 16-17, 17-18
  425. # [18:50] * gsnedders|work does however also note that it is true that fantasai is probably the best scribe he knows
  426. # [18:50] * Joins: shelleyp (shelleyp@69.155.29.71)
  427. # [18:51] * gsnedders|work (see, I'm not all mean to you) :P
  428. # [18:51] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
  429. # [18:51] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ
  430. # [18:51] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  431. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
  432. # [18:51] <RRSAgent> ok, MikeSmith; I will not start a new log at midnight
  433. # [18:51] * Quits: SCain (sally.cain@72.254.84.49) (Ping timeout)
  434. # [18:51] <fantasai> Friday slots are 9-10, 10-12, 13:30-15, 15:30-16:30, 16:30-17
  435. # [18:52] <fantasai> TAG is today at 14:00
  436. # [18:52] <fantasai> TC-39 tomorrow at 10
  437. # [18:52] * Julian maybe somebody can put this into an iCal resource?
  438. # [18:53] <fantasai> current proposals: 15+17 tomorrow at 10, 9+10 tomorrow at 13:30, 5+8+11 tomorrow at 13:30
  439. # [18:53] <fantasai> 1 today at 11
  440. # [18:53] <fantasai> 2 at 16:00
  441. # [18:54] <fantasai> Topic 3 has been renamed to Video
  442. # [18:54] <fantasai> Sylvia suggests merging with codecs and putting in a longer slot
  443. # [18:54] * Joins: timeless_mbp (timeless@63.245.220.224)
  444. # [18:55] <fantasai> Tantek: The 5811 session will be one of the hardest sessions that we have. I suggest doing it sooner rather than later while everyone is fresher
  445. # [18:55] * Quits: inimino (inimino@67.207.138.202) (Client exited)
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  447. # [18:55] <fantasai> Tantek: Also many other things might depend on the outcome of that
  448. # [18:55] <fantasai> MikeSmith: We might also want to discuss that before the TAG joint session
  449. # [18:55] * Quits: veosotano (veosotano@89.131.202.114) (Quit: veosotano)
  450. # [18:55] * Joins: inimino (inimino@67.207.138.202)
  451. # [18:55] <fantasai> Tantek: It'd be helpful to have consensus on some things before talking with TAG
  452. # [18:55] <fantasai> 5+8+11 moved to 11am today
  453. # [18:56] * Joins: MichaelC_ (Michael@128.30.52.30)
  454. # [18:56] <fantasai> 4 slotted for 16:00 today
  455. # [18:56] <fantasai> 4 is moving
  456. # [18:56] <fantasai> to ...
  457. # [18:56] <Eliot_Graff> 9 am tomorrow
  458. # [18:57] <fantasai> 15:30 tomorrow
  459. # [18:57] <Eliot_Graff> and then moved to 15:30 tomorrow
  460. # [18:57] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212)
  461. # [18:57] <fantasai> 6 slotted for 16:00 today
  462. # [18:58] <annevk> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Apvkq1IRZaQVdEFieXBXVHVkVWZaWlFNVDJpU1I2eGc&hl=en
  463. # [18:58] <pimpbot> Title: Welcome to Google Docs (at spreadsheets.google.com)
  464. # [18:58] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
  465. # [18:58] * Joins: Stevef (chatzilla@72.254.122.123)
  466. # [18:58] <fantasai> 7+17 assigned 13:30 tomorrow
  467. # [18:59] * Joins: SCain (sally.cain@72.254.84.49)
  468. # [18:59] <fantasai> 12 for 17:00 today
  469. # [18:59] * Joins: krisk (48fe70a0@128.30.52.43)
  470. # [18:59] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  471. # [18:59] * MichaelC_ is now known as MichaelC
  472. # [19:00] <fantasai> Joe: Seems like there's a tipping point between text/html and application/xhtml+xml. The author and browser have different responsibilities
  473. # [19:00] <fantasai> 7+15 at 13:30 tomorrow
  474. # [19:00] <fantasai> opposit 9+10
  475. # [19:01] <fantasai> s/sit/site/
  476. # [19:01] <fantasai> 20 for 16:30
  477. # [19:01] <fantasai> 17+18 for 15:30
  478. # [19:01] <fantasai> open slot at the end of the day friday
  479. # [19:01] <fantasai> Maciej: Anyone forsee any bad conflicts, anything you want moved? We have some slack in the schedule
  480. # [19:02] <fantasai> 14 and X30 for 9am tomorrow
  481. # [19:02] <fantasai> Maciej has scheduled 15+17 twice
  482. # [19:02] <fantasai> open slot at 10am Fri
  483. # [19:02] * Joins: DanC (connolly@72.254.120.7)
  484. # [19:02] <fantasai> 3+19 (Video) placed opposite TC-39 at 10am tomorrow (2hr slot)
  485. # [19:03] <fantasai> Maciej: Any other comments/
  486. # [19:04] <fantasai> 20 moved to 14:00 today
  487. # [19:04] <fantasai> Joe: X3D has a use of canvas that will blow your mind, might be some interest between those parts
  488. # [19:04] <fantasai> Maciej swaps 14 and 12
  489. # [19:05] * Joins: w3org (derekr@69.198.205.66)
  490. # [19:05] <fantasai> 14 at 17 today
  491. # [19:05] <fantasai> 12 at 9am tom
  492. # [19:05] <fantasai> Maceij: Ok, we'll go with this. We can move things around later if necessary
  493. # [19:06] * ArtB thanks AnneVK for the table!
  494. # [19:08] <myakura> do we have a slot for authoring materials?
  495. # [19:09] <fantasai> Tantek proposes less time for 20 - HTML Media Types
  496. # [19:09] <fantasai> it is now swapped with 2
  497. # [19:09] <fantasai> Maciej writes out the schedule
  498. # [19:09] <fantasai> Today:
  499. # [19:09] <fantasai> 11-12:30 AM
  500. # [19:09] <Julian> Anne, you're keeping this up-to-date right?
  501. # [19:10] <fantasai> Session A: HTML vs ARIA semantics
  502. # [19:10] <annevk> Julian, several people are
  503. # [19:10] <fantasai> Session B: DCE , Object , Profile
  504. # [19:10] <Julian> great
  505. # [19:10] <fantasai> 14-15:30 (2 PM)
  506. # [19:10] <fantasai> A: Canvas Accessibility
  507. # [19:10] <fantasai> B: TAG
  508. # [19:10] <fantasai> 16-17 (4 PM)
  509. # [19:11] <fantasai> A: HTML Media Types
  510. # [19:11] <fantasai> B: Caching
  511. # [19:11] <annevk> here is a published version of the schedule that is updated as people make changes: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tAbypWTudUfZZQMT2iSR6xg&output=html
  512. # [19:11] <pimpbot> Title: htmlwg schedule (at spreadsheets.google.com)
  513. # [19:11] <fantasai> 17-18 (5 PM)
  514. # [19:11] <fantasai> A: Canvas Status
  515. # [19:11] <fantasai> B: Author vs Browser Responsibilities
  516. # [19:12] * Quits: manu (chatzilla@206.158.104.51) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceweasel 3.0.12/2009082121])
  517. # [19:12] <fantasai> 16, authoring materials, slotted for 16:30 tomorrow
  518. # [19:13] <fantasai> 2nd track in this room (track with TAG), and 1st track in another room
  519. # [19:13] * Joins: VagnerW3CBrasil (chatzilla@72.254.101.96)
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  521. # [19:13] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88)
  522. # [19:13] <fantasai> other room is called Monterey?
  523. # [19:14] * Quits: shelleyp (shelleyp@69.155.29.71) (Quit: shelleyp)
  524. # [19:15] <fantasai> Maciej starts the break early
  525. # [19:15] <fantasai> since there is nothing left to discuss for the schedule
  526. # [19:16] * fantasai signs off for the moment then
  527. # [19:17] * Quits: weinig (weinig@72.254.105.115) (Quit: weinig)
  528. # [19:17] <fantasai> Monterey sessions will be in #html-wg2
  529. # [19:17] <oedipus> thank you VERY much fantasiai
  530. # [19:17] <oedipus> er, fantasai
  531. # [19:17] * myakura kinda wants to suggest #html2-wg
  532. # [19:18] <fantasai> HTML vs ARIA will be in their own task force channel
  533. # [19:18] <cshelly> HTML + ARIA session will be on IRC channel #aapi at 11 PST (in 42 minutes)
  534. # [19:18] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88) (Quit: Leaving)
  535. # [19:18] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88)
  536. # [19:18] <silvia> we'll have #video for the video discussion
  537. # [19:19] * Quits: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@72.254.89.93) (Quit: Now if you will excuse me, I have a giant ball of oil to throw out my window)
  538. # [19:19] <Lachy> krijnh, can you log #html-wg2 ?
  539. # [19:19] * Joins: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@72.254.89.93)
  540. # [19:20] * myakura notices that #aapi and #video don't have a namespace prefix. DCE?
  541. # [19:21] <Hixie> myakura: it's a great example of DCE
  542. # [19:21] <Hixie> no central authority to synchronise the names
  543. # [19:21] <Hixie> no conflicts in practice
  544. # [19:21] <Hixie> usable
  545. # [19:21] <Hixie> intuitive
  546. # [19:22] * Quits: ArtB (c0646811@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
  547. # [19:22] * Quits: Stevef (chatzilla@72.254.122.123) (Ping timeout)
  548. # [19:23] * Quits: cshelly (48fe7085@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
  549. # [19:23] <myakura> heh
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  554. # [19:25] <oedipus> anne, could you add the IRC channel to the google spreadsheet?
  555. # [19:25] <oedipus> thanks
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  566. # [19:42] <pimpbot> planet: point to external html5.js script for validation oddity <http://hg.diveintohtml5.org/hgweb.cgi/rev/c1d7d5e7b3e0a0c4956745c8a24d278ea61e90da> ** What are unusual and creative usages of html5 canvas <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1599792/what-are-unusual-and-creative-usages-of-html5-canvas> ** html5 canvas element and svg. <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1650415/html5-canvas-element-and-svg> ** Firefox 3.6 Beta 1 is now
  567. # [19:46] <annevk> the alternate room is not monterey it is room 1243
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  580. # [20:02] <tantek> alternate channel is #html-wg2
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  582. # [20:03] <Julian> starting with overview of extensibility points
  583. # [20:03] <annevk> Topic: Pre-HTML5 approaches
  584. # [20:03] <annevk> Joe Williams: [draws on whiteboard]
  585. # [20:04] * silvia1 wonders which actual room the ARIA discussions are in?
  586. # [20:04] <annevk> <object> was preceded by <embed>
  587. # [20:04] <fantasai> Joe: Then Netscape came up with <embed>
  588. # [20:04] <fantasai> Joe: Adobe working with them were able to get the flash player running with embed
  589. # [20:05] <annevk> #aapi iirc
  590. # [20:05] <fantasai> Joe: Plus being able ot respond to that nested context with some interfaces with the dom
  591. # [20:05] <annevk> silvia1, ^^
  592. # [20:05] <fantasai> Joe: Later <object> Was worked into the spec, MSFT came up with a good impl
  593. # [20:05] * Joins: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@72.254.89.93)
  594. # [20:05] <fantasai> Joe: Shortly thereafter, all browsers
  595. # [20:05] <fantasai> Joe: began recognizing <object>
  596. # [20:05] <fantasai> Joe: To me tha twas one of the great signs that the browser wars were over. All the browsers did <object>
  597. # [20:05] * Joins: Stevef (chatzilla@72.254.122.123)
  598. # [20:05] <fantasai> Joe: That was great for people that wanted to build these nested objects in
  599. # [20:06] <fantasai> Joe: The thing about <object> is the type="mime"
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  602. # [20:06] <fantasai> Joe: The browser looked at that, and then knew how to start up the object
  603. # [20:06] <fantasai> Joe: The second important thing is <param>
  604. # [20:06] <fantasai> Joe: The params give the opportunity.. for one thing, whatever the browser's context is, should have a negotiated live interface
  605. # [20:07] <fantasai> Joe: E.g. if I have a param named src, and the context recognizes it, then I should be able to send the DOM name and the param name and have an active exchange.
  606. # [20:07] <fantasai> Joe: These params should be I/O live
  607. # [20:07] <fantasai> Joe: I can have a running object here
  608. # [20:07] <fantasai> Joe: I can have live I/O, listeners listening to the dom
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  610. # [20:07] <fantasai> Joe: So I have a nested context thing
  611. # [20:07] * Joins: weinig (weinig@72.254.105.115)
  612. # [20:07] <fantasai> Joe: THe second most importan thing here is that <object> has fallback.
  613. # [20:07] * Joins: krisk (48fe70a0@128.30.52.43)
  614. # [20:08] <fantasai> Joe: If it doesn't recognize the mime type, it'll drop into the HTML inside. It could be another <object> tag with another mime type or just some HTML
  615. # [20:08] <fantasai> Joe: A lot of people put <embed>.
  616. # [20:08] <fantasai> Joe: Which really isn't necessary anymore
  617. # [20:08] <fantasai> Joe: Its interface was a long string....
  618. # [20:08] * Joins: shelleyp (shelleyp@69.155.29.71)
  619. # [20:08] <fantasai> Joe: Anyway
  620. # [20:08] * Joins: silvia (Adium@72.254.83.191)
  621. # [20:08] <fantasai> Joe: What happens when a browser encounters an <object> tag is a nother thing that should be consistent.
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  623. # [20:09] <fantasai> Joe: Nowadasy the browser wants to ask about security. It may be in an environment that doesn't look at <object>
  624. # [20:09] <fantasai> Joe: But anyway, how we develop the context here and get the extensibility we need
  625. # [20:09] <fantasai> Joe: We have a virtual engine in there that we can talk to
  626. # [20:09] <fantasai> Tony: You mentioned that you have some existing concerns about existing browser behavior
  627. # [20:09] <fantasai> Tony: Some of it's from the plugin side.
  628. # [20:10] <fantasai> s/Tony/Joe/
  629. # [20:10] <cardona507> thanks for scribing fantasai
  630. # [20:10] <fantasai> Joe: From X3D for example, we have some initialization and runtime inputs that we'll accept. Not all the plugins willa ccept that
  631. # [20:10] <fantasai> Joe: From the other side there's a data attribute, and several other attributes, that will either name a specific runtime
  632. # [20:10] <fantasai> Joe: or ... but data's not a live param
  633. # [20:10] <fantasai> Joe: If you want to change the source file or ? , you have to rewrite your whole object tag
  634. # [20:11] <fantasai> Joe: because of the security that's built up around there,
  635. # [20:11] <fantasai> Joe: data gets checked differently in IE
  636. # [20:11] <fantasai> Joe: There are those kinds of inconsistencies
  637. # [20:11] <tantek> not AFAIK - IE6 does support some object data=
  638. # [20:11] <tantek> as did IE5/Mac
  639. # [20:11] <fantasai> Joe: ... Should be just a friendly consistent cycle that users can depend on
  640. # [20:11] <fantasai> Joe: If SVG is adopted and put in inline, how does the browser recognize that it's calling into another runtime? Or is it built into the browser and the author doesn't really care
  641. # [20:12] <fantasai> ?
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  643. # [20:12] <fantasai> Maciej: A lot of the behavior of the object tag you described, at least in browsers that use NPAPI, the API only has the ability to send params to the plugin when it is started up
  644. # [20:12] <fantasai> Maciej: If you try to resend params, the browser will either ignore it or restart the plugin
  645. # [20:13] <pimpbot> planet: Will Visual Studio 2010 support HTML 5? <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1682180/will-visual-studio-2010-support-html-5> ** A sexy new name for the Open Web Stack? <http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2009/a-sexy-new-name-for-the-open-web-stack/> ** What are the boundaries or scope definitions of HTML5 development? <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1659386/what-are-the-boundaries-or-scope-definitions-of-html5-development> ** HTM
  646. # [20:13] <fantasai> Maciej: I believe all browsers that have NPAPI also have ?? that gives you a real API on teh object itself
  647. # [20:13] <fantasai> maciej: So you don't have to do it through <param>
  648. # [20:13] * MikeSmith to oedipus - can you come over on #html-wg2? and I can skype you in if you want
  649. # [20:13] <fantasai> Maciej: Because of limitations of NPAPI you can't have what your'e asking for
  650. # [20:13] <fantasai> Maciej: It's something that could be revised in future versions of NPAPI
  651. # [20:14] <fantasai> Joe: In the IE API, that is a real live trusted object in the document.
  652. # [20:14] <fantasai> Joe: The Netscape API doesn't quite treat it like that
  653. # [20:14] <fantasai> Joe: It's more like the embed thing, and the IE is more like the <object>
  654. # [20:14] <fantasai> Joe: ...
  655. # [20:14] <fantasai> Joe: What happens if you encouter an X3D link
  656. # [20:14] <fantasai> Joe: or another extensibility link?
  657. # [20:15] <fantasai> Joe: Just something friendly and consistent that we can play with. Thank you.
  658. # [20:15] * Quits: shelleyp (shelleyp@69.155.29.71) (Quit: shelleyp)
  659. # [20:15] <fantasai> Anne: Did you read the spec for <object>? It says that changing the data attr will reinstantiate the object.
  660. # [20:15] <fantasai> Joe: First of all, you want to get the thing running. You want to know when it's ready to accept the context argument. Then you know what you've got
  661. # [20:16] * prolix MikeSmith, prolix is gregory rosmaita (skypeid: oedipusnj)
  662. # [20:16] <fantasai> Joe: ...
  663. # [20:16] <fantasai> ?: The <object> is crippled for ...
  664. # [20:16] <fantasai> Hixie: Why can't we expose an API?
  665. # [20:16] * Joins: JF (chatzilla@72.254.61.214)
  666. # [20:17] <fantasai> Joe: Bring out a context, operate on it in the DOM..
  667. # [20:17] <fantasai> Hixie: You can instatiate a plugin that doesn't have a data. To load a file there, you'd call the API for it
  668. # [20:17] <fantasai> Hixie: The solution is to ...
  669. # [20:17] <fantasai> Maciej: You could expose a load method for example, or you can even expose things that appear as custom JS properties
  670. # [20:17] <fantasai> Maciej: So you could even have.. snce object convenient doesn't have src itself, you could assign src and the plugin then magages that
  671. # [20:18] <fantasai> Joe: In IE I think the plugin passes the bag of params, and they negotiate that
  672. # [20:18] <fantasai> Maciej: That's similar with NPAPI. You initially get a dictionar of the param values
  673. # [20:18] <fantasai> Maciej: But in addition to that you can expose a direct scripting API
  674. # [20:18] <fantasai> Maciej: I'm sure with Activex you can expose a direct scripting API as well
  675. # [20:18] <fantasai> Tony: I don't think there's anything specific as far as HTML5 is concerned.
  676. # [20:18] <fantasai> Joe: I'm continuing to look at the object element description
  677. # [20:19] <fantasai> Joe: Last time I looked the operation with the data paramter was more complete
  678. # [20:19] <fantasai> Joe: also things like what happens when you change the time
  679. # [20:19] <fantasai> s/time/type/
  680. # [20:19] <fantasai> Joe: ... It's just that, a uniform way to do it
  681. # [20:19] <fantasai> Anne: The data attribute is about an external resource. The browser may need to fetch the resource, and in a lot of instances this determines what type of plugin to instantiate, which is why it's reinstantiated
  682. # [20:20] <fantasai> Jeo: Whether or not the browser is the best one to decide whether the file is correct, is a question
  683. # [20:20] <fantasai> Hixie: THe concern is makin sure that given a particular state of DOM, there needs to be consistency with whether you load again the state, ro mutate to that state
  684. # [20:20] <tantek> FYI #html-wg2 is logged at: http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg2-irc
  685. # [20:20] <fantasai> Hixie: Suppose you have a plugin that supported flash and QT
  686. # [20:21] <fantasai> Hixie: ...
  687. # [20:21] <fantasai> Hixie: But hten you go to a user that supports one but and claims to support th eother, but only when changingit
  688. # [20:21] <fantasai> Hixie: ...
  689. # [20:21] <fantasai> Joe: I don't want to nail what object does with x3d or any kind of extension
  690. # [20:21] <fantasai> Joe: It remains a basic part of extensibility
  691. # [20:21] * fantasai didn't get hixie's example very well :(
  692. # [20:21] <fantasai> Tony: Let' smove on
  693. # [20:22] <fantasai> Julian: Profile there are several aspects to that discussion.
  694. # [20:22] <fantasai> Julian: First of all the descriptionin the HTML4 spec was broken wrt multiple profiles
  695. # [20:22] <fantasai> Julian: I spent a few hours to write precise erratum for HTMl4
  696. # [20:22] <fantasai> Julian: I'm not sure what to do with that
  697. # [20:23] <fantasai> Julian: Manual has started work on a separate work that takes advantage of the clause in HTML5 that allows other specs to define things base don profile
  698. # [20:23] <fantasai> ...
  699. # [20:23] <fantasai> Julian: The current proposal is to define a linke relation called profile
  700. # [20:23] <MikeSmith> s/Monterey/suite 1243/g
  701. # [20:23] <fantasai> Julian: Has the advantage of not using the profile attribute, but the disadvantage of existing things needitng to be updated not to us eht profile attr
  702. # [20:23] <fantasai> ...
  703. # [20:24] <fantasai> Tantek: There have only been a few efforts that take advantage of the profile attr
  704. # [20:24] <fantasai> Tantek: Dublin Core is one, but hasn't gotten much uptake
  705. # [20:24] <fantasai> tantek: Microformats then started, and they're pretty popular
  706. # [20:24] <fantasai> Tantek: rel value was introduced in HTml2, and now we have a separate microformats
  707. # [20:24] <fantasai> Tantek: People can pick a specific rel vocab with the profile attribute
  708. # [20:25] <fantasai> Tantek: Whatever HTMl5 does with profile, it's a good design .... ...
  709. # [20:25] <fantasai> ...
  710. # [20:25] <fantasai> Tantek: There are 2 different specs.
  711. # [20:25] <fantasai> Julian: ??? Behaviorial spec
  712. # [20:25] <fantasai> Julian: Droppe dversion
  713. # [20:25] <fantasai> Julian: Now only describing profile attr and profile link relation
  714. # [20:26] <fantasai> Julian: So manual's profile only specifies link profile inherit
  715. # [20:26] <fantasai> Julian: There's opportunity to make it work on <a> element as well
  716. # [20:26] <fantasai> Julian: And potentially also on <link>s outside <head>
  717. # [20:26] <fantasai> Tantek: Microformats encourages <a> but allows <link>
  718. # [20:26] <weinig> [Are there links available for the specs being mentioned?]
  719. # [20:27] <fantasai> Tantek: Recommends use of rel="profile" to link to theprofile inline, to better match authoring CMS patterns wher epeople work on different sections of the page
  720. # [20:27] <fantasai> Julian: I think we should continue to discuss that on the mailing list
  721. # [20:27] <fantasai> Julian: Some people wonder about replacing profile with link rel=profile, why are we doing that if the functionality is exactly the same
  722. # [20:27] <fantasai> Julian: If we do so it makes a lot of sense to look into options to make it more useful
  723. # [20:28] <fantasai> Julian: Then there's the quesiton of should it be a separate spec, or should we put back into the main spec
  724. # [20:28] <weinig> [Perhaps http://html5.digitalbazaar.com/specs/html5-epb.html ?]
  725. # [20:28] <annevk> can people put some links into IRC?
  726. # [20:28] <pimpbot> Title: Extended Processing Behavior in HTML5 (at html5.digitalbazaar.com)
  727. # [20:28] <fantasai> Maciej: rel="profile" doesn't need to be in the spec because it uses the rel extension registry
  728. # [20:28] <fantasai> JuliN: That reminds me of a topic we forgot about, where doe the ? for HTMl5 live
  729. # [20:29] <fantasai> Julian: Is this particular attribute something that should live in the base spec
  730. # [20:29] * Quits: prolix (4615bbaa@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
  731. # [20:29] <fantasai> ... wiki page
  732. # [20:29] <fantasai> Tantek: I'm proceeding with the assumption that the current mechnanism in the HTML5 spec is sufficient and using microformats from there
  733. # [20:29] <fantasai> Tantek: There is one impl currently of rel=profile that processes it
  734. # [20:29] <fantasai> Tantek: It processes it either strict mode or ? mode
  735. # [20:29] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212)
  736. # [20:30] <fantasai> Tantek: In strict mode it requries the profile uri string, in loose mode authros are rcommended to use it
  737. # [20:30] <fantasai> Tantek: It's called Cognition
  738. # [20:30] * Joins: DanC (connolly@72.254.120.7)
  739. # [20:30] <Hixie> is toby inkster here?
  740. # [20:30] <fantasai> Hixie: Would be interesting to hear what the authors of that think the use is
  741. # [20:30] <fantasai> Joe: So this is an example of extending by giving a uri
  742. # [20:30] * Quits: SCain (sally.cain@72.254.84.49) (Quit: SCain)
  743. # [20:30] <fantasai> Tantek summarizes the HTML4 definition of profile and its relation to rel
  744. # [20:30] <hsivonen> as I understand it, Cognition doesn't use @profile by default
  745. # [20:30] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169)
  746. # [20:31] <fantasai> Tantek: 2003 I wrote XMDP to create a profile format
  747. # [20:31] <hsivonen> it isn't much of an endorsement-by-implementation to have it off-by-default
  748. # [20:31] <fantasai> Tantek: To date there have been a few processors that use it, but mostly as a validation checking thing.
  749. # [20:31] <fantasai> Tantek: Some use it for transformation to RDF/GRDDL
  750. # [20:31] <fantasai> Julian: .. he said that if there's conensensus that this is the right way he has no problem doing so
  751. # [20:32] <tantek> XMDP: http://gmpg.org/xmdp/description
  752. # [20:32] <fantasai> Julian: Talk if authors are willing to migrate away from that. I can take that to DCH
  753. # [20:32] <pimpbot> Title: XMDP: Introduction and Format Description (at gmpg.org)
  754. # [20:32] <fantasai> Julian: Tantek is here, he knows the right thing for microformats
  755. # [20:32] <tantek> rel-profile: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-profile
  756. # [20:32] <fantasai> Julian: Don't know aht other specs use prifle
  757. # [20:32] <pimpbot> Title: rel profile Microformats Wiki (at microformats.org)
  758. # [20:32] <fantasai> s/prifl/profil/
  759. # [20:32] <fantasai> Maciej: Would our goal be to get these specs updated to use rel=profile?
  760. # [20:32] <fantasai> Tantek: I think so. I'm working with microformats to do that
  761. # [20:33] <fantasai> Joe: These vocabs aren't necessarily related to processing the DOM
  762. # [20:33] <fantasai> Tantek: They don't contribute to the DOM, they are already part of existing attr
  763. # [20:33] <fantasai> Tantek: e.g. class attribute is space-separated tokens. Microformats makes use of that
  764. # [20:33] <fantasai> Tantek: There are some browsers, e.g. ff, that can parse that and create a dom interface out of microformats.
  765. # [20:33] <fantasai> Tantek: but that hasn't been propsoed for standardization
  766. # [20:34] <fantasai> Tantek: Side note, I know tha tbinding things as URIs is not totally agreed on and not often used
  767. # [20:34] * Joins: kawata (kawa@216.9.106.99)
  768. # [20:34] <fantasai> Tantek: There are nontrivial communities that do think it's important and do want that ability
  769. # [20:34] <fantasai> Tantek: Just talking with TIm, it would be helpful with linked data
  770. # [20:34] <fantasai> Tony: Tantek, would you be willing to talk more about how mf take advantage of HTML syntax today?
  771. # [20:35] <fantasai> tantek: MF takes advantage of rel and class
  772. # [20:35] * Joins: shiki (sokasaka@72.254.87.192)
  773. # [20:35] <fantasai> Tantek: HTml spec has language to allow that
  774. # [20:35] <fantasai> Tantke: XFN in 2003 took advantage of that
  775. # [20:35] <fantasai> Tantek: In addition modern web designers have been using class attr for their own uses, e.g. class="header' class="footer"
  776. # [20:36] <fantasai> Tantek: MF takes advantage of that existing pattern of creating semantics with classes,
  777. # [20:36] <fantasai> Tantek: often takes existing vocabs as class names, e.g. with hCard
  778. # [20:36] <fantasai> Julian...
  779. # [20:36] * Parts: kawata (kawa@216.9.106.99)
  780. # [20:36] <fantasai> Julian: Ressurects the Link header from HTTP spec
  781. # [20:36] <fantasai> Julian: It allows exposing link relations in HTTP headers
  782. # [20:36] <fantasai> Julian : useful if you want to declare a link relation isn't HTML
  783. # [20:36] <fantasai> Julian: That spec suggests IANA registry fro shortnames
  784. # [20:37] <fantasai> Julian: Web Linking spec
  785. # [20:37] <fantasai> Julian: That spec passed IETF Last Call
  786. # [20:37] <fantasai> Julian: Mark Nottingham is here today
  787. # [20:37] <fantasai> Julian: might be able to talk to him
  788. # [20:37] <annevk> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-http-link-header
  789. # [20:37] <pimpbot> Title: draft-nottingham-http-link-header-06 - Web Linking (at tools.ietf.org)
  790. # [20:37] <fantasai> Julian: I think also about the media parameter
  791. # [20:37] <hsivonen> what would it mean to use rel=profile on the HTTP level for a non-HTML HTTP response?
  792. # [20:38] <fantasai> Julian: There's a potential conflict between the rel value registry that HTML5 spec currently defines and the IANA registry the IETF is proposing
  793. # [20:38] <fantasai> Julian: Don't know whether we canr esovle that conflict or whether it's significant
  794. # [20:38] * Quits: wendy (chatzilla@72.254.114.205) (Client exited)
  795. # [20:38] <fantasai> Julian: Anything used outside HTML might wind up in both registries
  796. # [20:38] * Parts: kford (chatzilla@72.254.103.138)
  797. # [20:38] <Julian> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-06
  798. # [20:38] <pimpbot> Title: draft-nottingham-http-link-header-06 - Web Linking (at tools.ietf.org)
  799. # [20:38] <fantasai> Tony: In terms of ppl being able to add extneions into HTML, custom attributes is something frameworks tend to make use of
  800. # [20:38] <fantasai> Tony:IF you don't care about validation you could do this in browsers for years
  801. # [20:39] <fantasai> Tony: It's a concern for frameworks whether their declarative markup validats in terms of whether customers are willing to use it
  802. # [20:39] <fantasai> Tony: data- gives us that
  803. # [20:39] <fantasai> Anne: When we added attrs for WF2, it broke some stuff
  804. # [20:39] <fantasai> Hixie: As we extend HTML we run into conflicts with these names
  805. # [20:39] <fantasai> Hixie: We've had to rename some things
  806. # [20:40] <fantasai> Hixie: kind of sad, because w can't use these attrs on form elements for example
  807. # [20:40] <fantasai> Hixie: THere's a distinction between attrs that are site-specific thing to hook into scripts
  808. # [20:40] <fantasai> Hixie: e.g. in HTML5 spec I annotate elements for cross-references
  809. # [20:40] <fantasai> Hixie: that's a closed environment where I'm extending the language in some way
  810. # [20:40] <Julian> s/That spec passed IETF Last Call/That spec is past IETF Last Call/
  811. # [20:40] <fantasai> Hixie: then there are more broad extensions like <canvas> and <marquee>
  812. # [20:40] <Julian> (which means there are still open issues to resolve)
  813. # [20:41] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.11)
  814. # [20:41] <fantasai> Tony: Distinguish extnesions you make for your homepage or JS framework, and ... roundtripping of metadata that we've supported
  815. # [20:41] <fantasai> Tony: For a page author embedding data in their own page data- gives them a safe path forward.
  816. # [20:41] <fantasai> Tony: We don't have to worry about name clashes going forward
  817. # [20:41] <fantasai> Tony: it's not clear whether that's available to frameworks or not
  818. # [20:42] <fantasai> Tony: And what authoring best practices are
  819. # [20:42] <fantasai> Talking about data-svg-?
  820. # [20:42] <fantasai> and SVG library writen in JS
  821. # [20:42] * Quits: mattmay (mattmay@72.254.12.175) (Quit: mattmay)
  822. # [20:43] <fantasai> data-path is too general, likely to conflict
  823. # [20:43] <fantasai> Hixie: If your bunch of content is self-contained, and self-consistent, it's fine
  824. # [20:43] <fantasai> Hixie: It's only aproblem when the content expect something from outside itself, e.g. the browser, to interact with it that we get a problem
  825. # [20:44] <fantasai> Maciej: Frameworks are part of the page, they're just also reusable
  826. # [20:44] <fantasai> Maciej: They don't create a situation where you're using data- to publish information to be consumed by others
  827. # [20:44] <fantasai> Tantek: Once people start using the same data- attributes with the same libraries across sites, you'll start getting de-facto standards
  828. # [20:45] <fantasai> Hixie: ...
  829. # [20:45] <fantasai> Hixie: We should use MF to encode data for wider usage
  830. # [20:45] <fantasai> Tantek: Can we give some guidance in the spec, warning don't go further than this
  831. # [20:45] <fantasai> Tony: Do we want to have a distinction between a single page author's stuff vs. script librarie's stuff?
  832. # [20:45] <hsivonen> the author controls which libraries to include
  833. # [20:46] <hsivonen> so in that sense, the author is in control of the libs, too
  834. # [20:46] <fantasai> Hixie: There's a difference between what I use on my page and Dojo, but these are opposite ends of a spectrum. It is a spectrum.
  835. # [20:46] <fantasai> Hixie: things will migrate across the spectrum
  836. # [20:46] <fantasai> Hixie: and there's no clear transition pointt
  837. # [20:46] <fantasai> Maciej: If you use data- attrs, you should use some kind of prefix
  838. # [20:47] <fantasai> Maciej: While data- stops clases with future standardds or browsers, might be useful to give some guidance over avoiding clashes amongst themselves.
  839. # [20:47] <fantasai> Maciej: don't want Dojo and JQuery fighting over attr names
  840. # [20:47] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
  841. # [20:47] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ
  842. # [20:47] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  843. # [20:47] <fantasai> Anne: x- usually means experimental
  844. # [20:47] <fantasai> Joe: Or extensible
  845. # [20:48] <fantasai> Tony: Perhaps something else, but would that be worthwile. Do I want data-jquer-* for all my widgets?
  846. # [20:48] <fantasai> Maciej: Well ? are already unbelievably long
  847. # [20:48] * Quits: jun (jun@72.254.101.63) (Quit: jun)
  848. # [20:48] <fantasai> Hixie: We don't have any control over this. We can just give advice
  849. # [20:48] <fantasai> Hixie: If i write a page that uses one attribute and only I use it, I'm not going to write data-x-hixie-foo
  850. # [20:48] <hsivonen> IIRC, dojo already puts "dojo" into its custom attributes that predate data-*
  851. # [20:49] <fantasai> Hixie: We can and should give guidance for framworks etc
  852. # [20:49] <gsnedders|work> It's not actually "dojo", but rather "d".
  853. # [20:49] <fantasai> Tony: For the people sitting on that edge, we're hitting into very long attr names
  854. # [20:49] * Quits: TabAtkins (chatzilla@72.254.112.118) (Ping timeout)
  855. # [20:49] <fantasai> ...
  856. # [20:49] * Quits: krisk (48fe70a0@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
  857. # [20:50] <fantasai> Tony: The longer the names are the less chance of name collisions, but also they become more unweildy
  858. # [20:50] <fantasai> s/ei/ie/
  859. # [20:50] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@72.254.117.7) (Ping timeout)
  860. # [20:50] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work, I see dojoType at http://dojocampus.org/explorer/#Dojox_Widgets_Color%20Picker_Customized
  861. # [20:50] <fantasai> Tantek: I think we should go with Maciej's proposal to add prefixes if you're writing a library, and if there's pushback, deal with it then
  862. # [20:50] <pimpbot> Title: Dojo Campus - Feature Explorer (at dojocampus.org)
  863. # [20:50] <fantasai> Tony: One other use case was metadata for non-browsers UAs in terms fo roundtripping
  864. # [20:50] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: Then I guess it uses a mixture
  865. # [20:50] <fantasai> Tony: I think microdata was intended for that purpose
  866. # [20:51] <hsivonen> (it's a very bad idea to use a capital 'T' in dojoType, though)
  867. # [20:51] <fantasai> Tony: I was wondering what the consensus is on whether it's sufficient
  868. # [20:51] <fantasai> Hixie: I'd be surprised if we had consensus that it's insfuficient, it's basically RDF model
  869. # [20:51] <fantasai> Maciej: ...
  870. # [20:51] <fantasai> Julian: Is it sufficient, I think it is. There's an open discussion on typing
  871. # [20:51] <fantasai> Julian: More interesting question is whether we want microdata to be part of the HTML5 spec
  872. # [20:52] <fantasai> Tony prefers to hold that one off for other session
  873. # [20:52] <fantasai> Tantek: 9am tom
  874. # [20:52] * Joins: wendy (chatzilla@72.254.114.205)
  875. # [20:52] <fantasai> Tantek: One thing that would help with q of what should editors do, is more documentaiton on the use cases
  876. # [20:52] <fantasai> Tantek: More documentation for editors on decentralized extensibility use cases
  877. # [20:52] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: Also uses djConfig
  878. # [20:53] <fantasai> ACTION Tony: write that on the wiki (decentralized extensibility use cases for editors)
  879. # [20:53] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  880. # [20:53] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Tony
  881. # [20:53] * RRSAgent records action 5
  882. # [20:53] <hsivonen> it's not clear that it's good for editors to dump a lot of product-specific stuff into files
  883. # [20:53] <fantasai> Tony: Knowing that a lot of frameworks and MF use class names to perform typing, is there value in letting them have their own elements.
  884. # [20:53] <hsivonen> Dreamweaver even has a feature for "cleaning up" Word HTML
  885. # [20:53] <fantasai> Tantek: don't understand what you mean
  886. # [20:53] <fantasai> Tony: Adding semantics so that it's more than just a div
  887. # [20:53] <fantasai> Hixie: use case?
  888. # [20:54] <fantasai> Tony: Do you feel there's value in being able to have a more concise syntax such as an element name
  889. # [20:54] <fantasai> Tantek: I see anti-value
  890. # [20:54] <fantasai> Hixie: big problems with new element is that UAs that don't understand it is that you fall back to the semantics of nothing.
  891. # [20:54] <fantasai> Hixie; With class, if you have a subclass of paragraph, you at least fall back to paragraph
  892. # [20:55] <fantasai> Tony: I'm talking about context of page author or script library, the opt-in mechanism of the script library or author adding semantics
  893. # [20:55] <fantasai> Hixie: Adding meaning is fine, this isn't that
  894. # [20:55] <hsivonen> see also http://intertwingly.net/blog/2006/11/15/Open-Source-Duke#c1163662129 in the context of Illustrator SVG output
  895. # [20:55] <pimpbot> Title: Sam Ruby: Open Source Duke (at intertwingly.net)
  896. # [20:55] * Quits: timeless_mbp (timeless@63.245.220.224) (Quit: timeless_mbp)
  897. # [20:55] <fantasai> Tantek: space-separated class names allows MF to layer multiple semantics onto a single element: very concise, rich semantics
  898. # [20:55] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
  899. # [20:56] <fantasai> Tantek: If they were elements, it'd be weird, bloated, and you'd get weird tree problems
  900. # [20:56] <fantasai> Maciej: The tree format choices are a problem. It's hard to add semantics without affecting the DOM, scripts, styling, etc.
  901. # [20:56] <fantasai> Maciej: Also things that are extensions right now might become standards later
  902. # [20:56] <fantasai> Maciej: It's easy to put two dfferent attrs on an element,
  903. # [20:57] <fantasai> Maciej: but you can't combine elements
  904. # [20:57] <fantasai> Tantek: Elements are bad because they make it more difficult ot overlay semantics
  905. # [20:57] <fantasai> Tantek: Lose fallback semantics
  906. # [20:57] <hsivonen> the downside is that classes can't affect the DOM interface of the element for "extensions" that later become native
  907. # [20:57] <fantasai> Tantek: Make migration to standards more difficult
  908. # [20:57] <fantasai> [3 reasons]
  909. # [20:58] <fantasai> Hixie; If apple inventing invented d-apple-canvas, and mozilla did d-moz-canvas, then you could put them both on the same div
  910. # [20:58] <fantasai> Maciej: and once standardized, you could put both on <canvas> element
  911. # [20:59] <fantasai> Maciej: UA etensions tend not to migrate to standards, but other names do
  912. # [20:59] <fantasai> Maciej: Script libraries it's harder to have the script library turn itself off when it's not needed (..?)
  913. # [20:59] * DanC anybody mind if I do 'make minutes' so I can read a nicer formatting of the log?
  914. # [21:00] <fantasai> Tony: We wouldn't want to standardize on the extended syntax anyway, bc it's reserved for extension
  915. # [21:00] <fantasai> Tony: i see that for most common cases attrs would be more usefl
  916. # [21:00] * Quits: glenng (48fe68fb@64.62.228.82) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  917. # [21:00] <fantasai> Tony: I dont think we need to talk much about prefixing anymore
  918. # [21:00] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@72.254.90.149)
  919. # [21:00] * DanC RRSAgent, make minutes
  920. # [21:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html DanC
  921. # [21:00] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  922. # [21:00] * Joins: satoshi (satoshi_fu@72.254.92.146)
  923. # [21:00] <fantasai> Tony: One of my biggest ocncerns here isn't about name collisions, it's about consistency
  924. # [21:00] <fantasai> Tony: GOing to HTML5 as it exists today, doesn't jive for me
  925. # [21:01] <fantasai> tony: Namespaces are all over the place. used to describe so much of what HTML5 is and what it does
  926. # [21:01] <fantasai> Tony: but it's all implicit, I can't access it
  927. # [21:01] <fantasai> Hixie: I'd like to remove it all
  928. # [21:01] <fantasai> Hixie: namespaces are hidden as much as possible, but unfortunately not complete possible.
  929. # [21:01] * DanC darn... no TOC
  930. # [21:01] <fantasai> Tony: rolled SVG and MathML specs
  931. # [21:02] <fantasai> Hixie: We def don't want arbitrary vocabs to be included in HTML
  932. # [21:02] <fantasai> Tony: Have to wait for HTMl6?
  933. # [21:02] <cardona507> html6 next year?
  934. # [21:02] * annevk DanC it's a long session on one subject
  935. # [21:02] <fantasai> Hixie: It's happened twice in 19 years?
  936. # [21:02] <fantasai> Hixie: HTML6 starts next year anyway
  937. # [21:02] <fantasai> Tony: ... same tag name across different name spaces. If I reshuffle these in the DOM, I can't reserialize anything
  938. # [21:02] * DanC wonders if the subject is "Pre-HTML5 approaches" as the TOC suggests
  939. # [21:02] <fantasai> Hixie: You can reserialize anything that is conforming
  940. # [21:03] <fantasai> Hixie: I agree it's a probelm having all this namespace stuff in HTML
  941. # [21:03] * DanC pre-HTML5 approaches to what? oh... maybe this is about backward compatibility and such. ok.
  942. # [21:03] <fantasai> Hixie: e.g. you want to XHR an XHTML document and just import those nodes... I think it'll be a nonstarter to as SVG to remvoe their namespaces
  943. # [21:03] <fantasai> Hixie: It's unfortunate, but we're past the point where we can chagne it
  944. # [21:03] * annevk DanC it's actually distributed extensibility
  945. # [21:03] <fantasai> Julian: THe opposite, to actually allow prefixed names in HTML, would be worse
  946. # [21:04] * DanC ah
  947. # [21:04] * annevk it started with pre-html5 approaches
  948. # [21:04] <fantasai> Tony: Why do you feel that way?
  949. # [21:04] * annevk but then nobody changed the topic i guess
  950. # [21:04] <fantasai> Hixie: There are different aspects of namespaces, different types of disasters. ANy particular ones I should talk about?
  951. # [21:04] <fantasai> Hixie: A lot of them are prefix-specific.
  952. # [21:04] <fantasai> Hixie: If we remove those and have names being tuples
  953. # [21:05] <fantasai> Hixie: We have the same name that means different things. And people don't typically use the full long names, they use the short ones.
  954. # [21:05] <fantasai> Hixie: ppl find namespaces very confusing
  955. # [21:05] <fantasai> Maciej: People use prefixes without namespace decl
  956. # [21:06] <fantasai> Maciej: and you end up with this mechanism where theoretically you have these URIs but in reality you're tied to these prefixes
  957. # [21:06] <fantasai> Hixie: ? made interesting observation after writing book on XForms
  958. # [21:06] <fantasai> Hixie: 80% of the emails he received were asking him on namespaces
  959. # [21:06] <fantasai> Hixie: this is a book on xforms, not even about namespaces
  960. # [21:06] <fantasai> Maciej: XForms isn't namespace heavy
  961. # [21:07] <fantasai> Hixie: And yet of the whole of XForms, which is a massively complicaed language, 80% of questions were about namespaces
  962. # [21:07] <fantasai> Julian: Many ppl have bad experiences with namespaces, maybe some have good experiences
  963. # [21:07] <fantasai> Hixie: I doubt it. I guarantee there are namespace problems in the WebDAV space as well
  964. # [21:07] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Quit: tlr)
  965. # [21:08] <fantasai> Hixie: I've been involved with ppl invovled with the design of WebDAV that dont' get it
  966. # [21:08] <fantasai> Maciej: It's not just that some people have problem understanding namespaces
  967. # [21:08] <fantasai> Maciej: it's also that some people haveing trouble with it throws off everything else
  968. # [21:08] <fantasai> Maciej: If they start using namespaces wrong then we start a dependency cycle where processors and authors use namespaces wrong
  969. # [21:09] <fantasai> Maciej: If ppl just got confused and caused themselves problems, that'd be bad, but if they get confused and cause other people problems, that's worse
  970. # [21:09] <fantasai> Tony: ..
  971. # [21:09] <fantasai> Tony: If youre content just didn't display, you'd know there's a problem
  972. # [21:09] <fantasai> Maciej: People don't publish content with problems if the browser doesn't behave as they expect
  973. # [21:10] <fantasai> as often
  974. # [21:10] <fantasai> Tantek: People tend to fall into 2 camps. 1. They see namespaces, it looks confusing, and run away
  975. # [21:10] <hsivonen> (the XForms book author Hixie referred to is Micah Dubinko)
  976. # [21:10] <fantasai> Tantek: 2. Or they think they understand it, use copy&paste, and have trouble with it
  977. # [21:10] <fantasai> Tantek: Unless you live and breathe namespaces, you're like to get it wrong
  978. # [21:10] * annevk is reminded of http://annevankesteren.nl/2005/11/draconian
  979. # [21:11] <fantasai> Tantek: We see this problem even at w3c
  980. # [21:11] * annevk (not really namespaces)
  981. # [21:11] <fantasai> ...
  982. # [21:11] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  983. # [21:12] * Dashiva is reminded of RDFa's solution to namespaces being "use namespace-unaware methods"
  984. # [21:12] <fantasai> ?: Some of the criticism of namespaces while still allowing ...
  985. # [21:12] <fantasai> s/?/Rob/
  986. # [21:13] <fantasai> Rob likes Liam Q's unobtrusive namespaces
  987. # [21:13] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
  988. # [21:13] <fantasai> Tony: I don't know all the syntax he's looking for, but the intend and what he was trying to achieve.
  989. # [21:13] <hsivonen> more than once on W3C-related occasions, I have had to explain Namespaces to people who work on specs that purport to build on Namespaces
  990. # [21:13] <fantasai> Tony: There was the idea of having external file that auto-binds element names
  991. # [21:14] * Quits: JonathanJ (hollobit@72.254.12.13) (Quit: JonathanJ)
  992. # [21:14] <hsivonen> Namespaces are too hard even for people who work on specs at the W3C
  993. # [21:14] <fantasai> Tony: and can have switches for descendent elements
  994. # [21:14] <fantasai> Tony: Basically generalizing what HTML5 does
  995. # [21:14] <fantasai> Tony: ...
  996. # [21:14] <fantasai> Tony: So you can write different files, mix in something new either osmething broadly standardized or something local that only you use
  997. # [21:15] <fantasai> Tony: You can have HTML processing, don't have explicit namespaces in your document
  998. # [21:15] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
  999. # [21:15] <fantasai> Rob: Let's say someone wants ot add a new feature, then if that gets adopted it becomes part of HTMl6
  1000. # [21:15] * Quits: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254) (Ping timeout)
  1001. # [21:15] <fantasai> Rob: Fixes some of the migration issues
  1002. # [21:16] <fantasai> Julian: Problem with that is that then the semantics of your page depend on this external file
  1003. # [21:16] <fantasai> JuliaN: you have this external resource, you have something similar to the DTD fetching problem
  1004. # [21:16] * Dashiva - isn't that what profile does already?
  1005. # [21:16] * jgraham this seems more fundamental
  1006. # [21:16] <fantasai> Julian: Also we're saying already that the indirection of namespaces is too complicated, and we're making it even more indirect
  1007. # [21:16] * jgraham was wondering about the same thing
  1008. # [21:17] <fantasai> Tony: I don't know that it's indirection. What it allows is for authors to to think about just the element.s
  1009. # [21:17] <fantasai> Tony: Authors can reap the advantages of mashupws without being exposed to their complexities
  1010. # [21:17] <fantasai> ...
  1011. # [21:18] <fantasai> Tony: createElementNS and createElement is already a problem
  1012. # [21:18] * Dashiva Under the hood it adds more indirection, but above the hood is basically removes the original indirection
  1013. # [21:18] <fantasai> Maciej: No reason we can't extend createElement to handle this the same way as the parser
  1014. # [21:18] * Quits: BryanSullivan (Bryan@135.214.40.68) (Client exited)
  1015. # [21:18] <fantasai> Maciej: Classic XML namespaces bind a prefix to a namespace URI. THat's a level of indirection, and that also has certain nesting rules.
  1016. # [21:18] <fantasai> Maciej: This would bind namespaces to an actual tag name.
  1017. # [21:19] <fantasai> Maciej: There's definitely potential for confusion there, where if you communicate with someone that's not using the same predefined namespace file
  1018. # [21:19] <fantasai> Maciej: But you don't have the problem of having an arbitrary token used just for indirection
  1019. # [21:19] <fantasai> Julian: But it's na external file. can we put this in the head somehow?
  1020. # [21:20] <fantasai> Maciej: would be too long
  1021. # [21:20] * Joins: TL (48fe78b2@128.30.52.43)
  1022. # [21:20] * Dashiva Part of the idea seemed to be that most users wouldn't handle the files at all, they'd just use browser built-ins
  1023. # [21:20] <fantasai> Tony: ... [not really b/c of nestign bhavior]
  1024. # [21:20] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58)
  1025. # [21:20] <fantasai> Maciej: It's different in the sense that authors could themselves use the same behavior for their own vocabularies
  1026. # [21:20] <fantasai> Maciej: and in the future could be ...
  1027. # [21:21] * annevk ... notices a huge amount of macs
  1028. # [21:21] <fantasai> maciej: If the logical model is that there's a predefined model, doesn't mean the UA has to fetch it each time.
  1029. # [21:21] <fantasai> Maciej: If you wanted to do it for custom elements, then you'd have tlink it and read it
  1030. # [21:21] <fantasai> Tantek: That sound isomorphic to DTDs. I don't see the difference.
  1031. # [21:22] <fantasai> Anne: Having a file you have to load to parse it is not a good idea.
  1032. # [21:22] <fantasai> Julian: Well, you could parse it, but not do anything beyond that
  1033. # [21:22] <fantasai> Julian: I think we should consider that we may be able to come up with a clever way to use namespaces, but it will be a different way from XML
  1034. # [21:23] <fantasai> Julian: I'm skeptical that we can make it friend or that it will be less confusing. I think by creating a second way to do the same thing we're adding to the confusion
  1035. # [21:23] <fantasai> s/friend/friendly/
  1036. # [21:23] <fantasai> ...
  1037. # [21:24] <Hixie> http://www.greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/webdav-redirector-list.html#issue-namespace-handling
  1038. # [21:24] <fantasai> Lachy: I don't think we should be develping a solution for adding namespaces to HTML if XHTML will work fine in the future (once we have support in IE)
  1039. # [21:24] <pimpbot> Title: WebDAV Mini-Redirector (MRXDAV.SYS) Versions and Issues List (at www.greenbytes.de)
  1040. # [21:24] <fantasai> Carlos: It seemed like Tim was pretty passionate about this. Anyone have an idea what exactly?
  1041. # [21:24] <fantasai> Maciej: He loves namespaces
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  1043. # [21:24] <fantasai> Joe: Aren't we saying that..
  1044. # [21:24] <fantasai> Joe: I see this as two sides, the text/html side
  1045. # [21:25] <fantasai> Joe: and then there's the XHTML side
  1046. # [21:25] <Julian> notes that this is a problem of a client that properly handles prefixes, just not default namespaces
  1047. # [21:25] <fantasai> Joe: And on the HTML side the browser is covering my but
  1048. # [21:25] <fantasai> t
  1049. # [21:25] * annevk I think I have to leave in a couple of minutes
  1050. # [21:25] * annevk ... security BOF
  1051. # [21:25] <fantasai> Joe: It's not a validating parser, it's got fixups, it's got makeups, ituses tables, doesn't care about dtd. Just cares about what it has hard-coded
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  1053. # [21:26] <fantasai> Joe: In XHTML the browser is stupid, it doesn't know anything at all. I tell it what it's got to do. It learns in an entirely different way than in text/html
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  1055. # [21:27] <fantasai> Joe: I'm saying that to have text/html be extensible, I've got to change
  1056. # [21:27] <fantasai> Joe: In XHTML I just give it a new namespace, and a new schema
  1057. # [21:27] <fantasai> Joe: It's easy to extend XHTML, hard to extend HTML
  1058. # [21:27] <fantasai> Joe: On one side I deal with the browser's built-ins, on the other I have extensibility
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  1060. # [21:28] <fantasai> Tantek: it sounds like there are multiple proposals for adding some form of namespaces to HTML
  1061. # [21:28] * fantasai likes Joe's point
  1062. # [21:29] <fantasai> Anne: The basic idea of XML5 is to add some of the error-recovery ideas of HTML to XML. It would still have extensibility and namespaces and stuff. Authors could then use that
  1063. # [21:30] <fantasai> Maciej: The idea is to have a second way of handling application/xml that handled conforming documents the same, but for nonconforming documents handled errors in a well-defined manner that didn't catch fire
  1064. # [21:30] <hsivonen> about the Microsoft proposal: would MS implement it across all modes of IE (including the IE 5.5 mode) if it were adopted into a W3C spec?
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  1068. # [21:30] <fantasai> Maciej: THe interesting thing about htis proposal is it would provide the people that want xml namespaces with athe ability to have lenient error-handling
  1069. # [21:30] <hsivonen> that is, does Microsoft believe it's compatible enough with existing content to be implemented across all modes?
  1070. # [21:31] <fantasai> Maciej: The disadvantage si that the people that want the draconian error handling can't get that anymore
  1071. # [21:31] * tlr notes that the security BOF in Monterey is about to start
  1072. # [21:31] <hsivonen> I think doing XML5 would be more sensible than bending text/html into the requirements of the XML community
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  1074. # [21:32] <fantasai> My personal opinion is that XML parsers in browsers shouldn't bail on the whole document on errors, they should just close all tags and then abort
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  1076. # [21:32] <fantasai> obvious error, but you get at least something usable
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  1078. # [21:32] <fantasai> if you're just a reader
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  1081. # [21:32] <fantasai> Meeting closed
  1082. # [21:33] <MikeSmith> action: Steve to bring question to group: Do we want changing of element handler and role semantics via attributes to be deprecated?
  1083. # [21:33] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  1084. # [21:33] * RRSAgent records action 6
  1085. # [21:33] <trackbot> Created ACTION-158 - Bring question to group: Do we want changing of element handler and role semantics via attributes to be deprecated? [on Steve Faulkner - due 2009-11-12].
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  1088. # [21:33] <fantasai> MikeSmith: I can't minute TAG
  1089. # [21:34] <fantasai> MikeSmith: It's in the afternoon, I'm not available this afternoon
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  1092. # [21:34] <MikeSmith> fantasai, OK
  1093. # [21:34] * hsivonen thanks fantasai for minuting
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  1096. # [21:34] * fantasai welcome
  1097. # [21:35] <tantek> lunch
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  1108. # [21:43] <pimpbot> planet: Distributed Extensibility <http://dbaron.org/log/20091105-distributed-extensibility>
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  1110. # [21:44] <Laura> rrsagent, draft minutes
  1111. # [21:44] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html Laura
  1112. # [21:44] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
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  1153. # [22:49] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8207] Change definition of URL to normative reference to IRIBIS <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0052.html> ** [Bug 8207] New: Change definition of URL to normative reference to IRIBIS <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0051.html>
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  1171. # [22:57] <rubys> hsivonen: ping?
  1172. # [22:58] <annevk> we're still somewhat stuck in the security room
  1173. # [22:58] <annevk> hopefully this is rounded up within 5 minutes
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  1176. # [22:58] <annevk> (not hsivonen btw, he's at home :) )
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  1178. # [22:59] <gsnedders> annevk: security room?
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  1182. # [22:59] <MikeSmith> I suspect hsivonen may be sleeping by now
  1183. # [23:00] <annevk> yeah, because of the fire earlier
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  1185. # [23:00] <MikeSmith> .t hsivonen
  1186. # [23:00] <phenny> Fri, 06 Nov 2009 00:00:07 EET
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  1188. # [23:00] <gsnedders> annevk: fire? what?
  1189. # [23:00] <Philip> gsnedders: It's the room with all the CCTV displays so they can snoop on the other attendees
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  1195. # [23:03] <rubys> For hsivonen to ponder at some later point: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/11/05/Web3D#c1257458545
  1196. # [23:03] <pimpbot> Title: Sam Ruby: Web3D (at intertwingly.net)
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  1201. # [23:04] <paulc> TAG and HTML WG joint session: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Nov/0161.html
  1202. # [23:04] <pimpbot> Title: TAG and HTML WG joint meeting discussion topics from Paul Cotton on 2009-11-05 (public-html@w3.org from November 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
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  1213. # [23:13] <annevk> Topic: joint meeting with TAG
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  1216. # [23:14] <annevk> Paul Cotton is giving an intro
  1217. # [23:14] <annevk> note to TAG members on IRC: scribing is adhoc
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  1219. # [23:14] <annevk> anarchy-like
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  1221. # [23:14] <DanC> ok... i.e. if you want it recorded, record it
  1222. # [23:15] <annevk> yup
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  1224. # [23:15] <paulc> noah giving an intro to the TAG
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  1226. # [23:16] <paulc> TAG charter: http://www.w3.org/2001/07/19-tag
  1227. # [23:16] <pimpbot> Title: Technical Architecture Group (TAG) Charter (at www.w3.org)
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  1229. # [23:17] <paulc> Starting discussion with http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Nov/0161.html
  1230. # [23:17] <pimpbot> Title: TAG and HTML WG joint meeting discussion topics from Paul Cotton on 2009-11-05 (public-html@w3.org from November 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
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  1233. # [23:21] <paulc> Possible topics:
  1234. # [23:21] <paulc> a) text/html media type
  1235. # [23:21] <DanC> maybe we could skip the (rest of) the read-thru and start discussion?
  1236. # [23:22] <paulc> b) URI/IRI/WebAddr
  1237. # [23:22] <DanC> my mental stack is about full
  1238. # [23:23] <tantek> Noah is summarizing the Discussion Topics
  1239. # [23:23] <paulc> c) Embedding data in HTML Documents
  1240. # [23:23] <paulc> d) Language reference/authoring specification
  1241. # [23:23] <DanC> scribe: DanC
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  1243. # [23:24] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1244. # [23:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  1245. # [23:24] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
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  1248. # [23:25] <DanC> Topic: text/html media type
  1249. # [23:25] <annevk> (Larry was in the security BOF; thought he would come here.)
  1250. # [23:25] <MikeSmith> s/MikeSmith:/MikeSmith,
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  1252. # [23:26] <DanC> PaulC: do you have proposed text re polyglot documents?
  1253. # [23:26] <timbl> q?
  1254. # [23:26] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1255. # [23:26] <timbl> q+
  1256. # [23:26] * Zakim sees timbl on the speaker queue
  1257. # [23:26] <paulc> ack tim
  1258. # [23:26] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1259. # [23:26] <MikeSmith> q+ to ask about current wording of definition of "XHTML" in the spec
  1260. # [23:26] <annevk> ack timbl
  1261. # [23:26] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  1262. # [23:26] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  1263. # [23:26] <ht> q+ to check 'tiny sliver'
  1264. # [23:26] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, ht on the speaker queue
  1265. # [23:26] <DanC> Hixie: not yet; the bug came in yesterday or so...
  1266. # [23:27] <mjs> q+
  1267. # [23:27] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, ht, mjs on the speaker queue
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  1269. # [23:27] <ht> q- ht
  1270. # [23:27] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, mjs on the speaker queue
  1271. # [23:27] <DanC> ... the intent was to [sorry, missed]; there's a small intersection between HTML and XML, called polyglot documents...
  1272. # [23:27] <Julian> q+
  1273. # [23:27] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, mjs, Julian on the speaker queue
  1274. # [23:27] <DanC> ... the text [did something wrong in that case]; I expect to fix that.
  1275. # [23:27] <Julian> q-
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  1278. # [23:28] <DanC> TimBL: perhaps the intersection is small by count of strings, but it's a valuable language with a community of practice around it
  1279. # [23:28] <annevk> q+
  1280. # [23:28] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, mjs, annevk on the speaker queue
  1281. # [23:28] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212)
  1282. # [23:28] <paulc> ack Mike
  1283. # [23:28] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to ask about current wording of definition of "XHTML" in the spec
  1284. # [23:28] <DanC> Hixie: so I hear; could you elaborate on why you value it?
  1285. # [23:28] * Zakim sees mjs, annevk on the speaker queue
  1286. # [23:29] <noahm> q+ to ask whether we don't already have a good resolution
  1287. # [23:29] * Zakim sees mjs, annevk, noahm on the speaker queue
  1288. # [23:29] <DanC> TimBL: if you use XML tools, [it's nice]
  1289. # [23:29] <Hixie> q+ to mention you need a special outputter anyway to do this
  1290. # [23:29] * Zakim sees mjs, annevk, noahm, Hixie on the speaker queue
  1291. # [23:29] <annevk> q- to let Hixie say it so I don't have to
  1292. # [23:29] * Zakim sees mjs, noahm, Hixie on the speaker queue
  1293. # [23:29] <ht> q+ to mention cocoon, XProc, docman tooling in general
  1294. # [23:29] * Zakim sees mjs, noahm, Hixie, ht on the speaker queue
  1295. # [23:29] <DanC> MikeSmith: meanwhile, HTML5 parsers are being slotted in where XML processors have been, e.g. on the front of XSLT engines.
  1296. # [23:29] <DanC> [some example; help?]
  1297. # [23:29] * Quits: silvia (Adium@72.254.83.191) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1298. # [23:30] <ht> s/[some example; help?]/HTMLXSLT, from Henri Sivonen/
  1299. # [23:30] <DanC> MikeSmith: another point: the definition of XHTML... at some point, the spec defined it as "a document served with an XML media type"... I lost track of where it is now...
  1300. # [23:31] <DanC> ... people objected to it; people don't want to be told that the document they call XHTML can't be served as text/html. I have some empathy [sympathy?] for this position.
  1301. # [23:31] <DanC> Hixie: yes, if you constrain yourself to the intersection...
  1302. # [23:31] <Kai> q+ to ask, naively, what this would mean for our XHTML pages, served as text/html, our hundreds of partner companies and basically the whole structure of an XHTML based world of portals
  1303. # [23:31] * Zakim sees mjs, noahm, Hixie, ht, Kai on the speaker queue
  1304. # [23:32] <paulc> q?
  1305. # [23:32] * Zakim sees mjs, noahm, Hixie, ht, Kai on the speaker queue
  1306. # [23:32] <paulc> Ack mjs
  1307. # [23:32] * Zakim sees noahm, Hixie, ht, Kai on the speaker queue
  1308. # [23:32] * DanC is a couple speakers behind and not winning in trying to catch up
  1309. # [23:32] <DanC> q+
  1310. # [23:32] * Zakim sees noahm, Hixie, ht, Kai, DanC on the speaker queue
  1311. # [23:32] * Joins: drunknbass_work (aaron@71.107.253.243)
  1312. # [23:32] <ht> +1 to mjs
  1313. # [23:32] <paulc> ack noahm
  1314. # [23:32] <Zakim> noahm, you wanted to ask whether we don't already have a good resolution
  1315. # [23:32] * Zakim sees Hixie, ht, Kai, DanC on the speaker queue
  1316. # [23:32] <DanC> Maciej: I observe the difference in opinion between TimBL and Hixie about whether polyglot documents are valuable/good; I suggest the spec remain neutral on this.
  1317. # [23:33] <DanC> Hixie: yes, text that editorialized on this has been removed... or will/should be
  1318. # [23:33] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212) (Quit: dsinger)
  1319. # [23:33] * Joins: Bert (bbos@mcclure.w3.org)
  1320. # [23:33] <tantek> Noah: perhaps a problem is the use of the phrase "XML document" without hyperlinking it.
  1321. # [23:34] <DanC> Noah: a general suggestion that bears on this case... the term "XML document" is used in a what that's not clear; a hyperlink would likely clarify...
  1322. # [23:34] <MikeSmith> q+ to note that the case of drop-in HTML5 parsers in XML toolchains doesn't work for documents that need to be signed (because we have an XML document signing mechanism but not an HTML document signing mechanism)
  1323. # [23:34] * Zakim sees Hixie, ht, Kai, DanC, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  1324. # [23:34] <DanC> ... perhaps a parallel effort could audit the spec for hyperlinks to add
  1325. # [23:34] <timbl> q?
  1326. # [23:34] * Zakim sees Hixie, ht, Kai, DanC, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  1327. # [23:34] <DanC> q+ TVR
  1328. # [23:34] * Zakim sees Hixie, ht, Kai, DanC, MikeSmith, TVR on the speaker queue
  1329. # [23:34] <paulc> ack hixie
  1330. # [23:34] <Zakim> Hixie, you wanted to mention you need a special outputter anyway to do this
  1331. # [23:34] * Zakim sees ht, Kai, DanC, MikeSmith, TVR on the speaker queue
  1332. # [23:34] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Quit: tlr)
  1333. # [23:35] <DanC> Hixie: in the case where you're outputting an XML document that you want to ship as text/html, you do need a special serialzer; e.g. to avoid <div />
  1334. # [23:35] <paulc> ack ht
  1335. # [23:35] <Zakim> ht, you wanted to mention cocoon, XProc, docman tooling in general
  1336. # [23:35] * Zakim sees Kai, DanC, MikeSmith, TVR on the speaker queue
  1337. # [23:35] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212)
  1338. # [23:35] <annevk> other examples are <br></br> turning into <br/><br/> at the DOM level
  1339. # [23:35] <DanC> HT: there's a community of practice, esp in document management, that switched to all XML ~4 years ago...
  1340. # [23:35] <Philip> MikeSmith, can't you sign HTML documents exactly like you'd sign any arbitrary stream of bytes?
  1341. # [23:35] <annevk> and <p><table></table></p> becoming <p/><table/><p/> at the DOM level, etc.
  1342. # [23:35] <DanC> ... e.g. spec-prod [?]
  1343. # [23:36] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@83.252.226.0)
  1344. # [23:36] * Joins: webspinner (ws@70.177.162.26)
  1345. # [23:36] <DanC> HT: we don't use a special serializer; we've just learned to be careful
  1346. # [23:36] <paulc> ack kai
  1347. # [23:36] <Zakim> Kai, you wanted to ask, naively, what this would mean for our XHTML pages, served as text/html, our hundreds of partner companies and basically the whole structure of an XHTML
  1348. # [23:36] <DanC> Hixie: wouldn't it be better for the tools to do that?
  1349. # [23:36] <Zakim> ... based world of portals
  1350. # [23:36] * Zakim sees DanC, MikeSmith, TVR on the speaker queue
  1351. # [23:36] <timbl> q+ to mention tidy and to protest against a doubling the toolsets
  1352. # [23:36] * Zakim sees DanC, MikeSmith, TVR, timbl on the speaker queue
  1353. # [23:36] <DanC> HT: I don't think so
  1354. # [23:36] <DanC> [ETOOFAST]
  1355. # [23:36] * Joins: silvia (Adium@72.254.83.191)
  1356. # [23:37] <ht> s/think so/think so, in particular because we want to continue to process the output with generic XML tools/
  1357. # [23:37] <tantek> Kai: all we have is XHTML that we serve as text/html
  1358. # [23:37] * MikeSmith volunteer to scribe DanC's comments for him when his time on the queue comes up
  1359. # [23:37] <paulc> ack danc
  1360. # [23:37] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, TVR, timbl on the speaker queue
  1361. # [23:37] <DanC> Kai: all we [who?] have is text/html... could someone explain the issue at a high level?
  1362. # [23:37] <DanC> ack me
  1363. # [23:37] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, TVR, timbl on the speaker queue
  1364. # [23:37] <paulc> q+
  1365. # [23:37] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, TVR, timbl, paulc on the speaker queue
  1366. # [23:37] <rubys> q+
  1367. # [23:37] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, TVR, timbl, paulc, rubys on the speaker queue
  1368. # [23:38] <ht> s/[who?]/at Deutsche Telekom/
  1369. # [23:38] <annevk> there is http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML_vs._XHTML
  1370. # [23:38] <pimpbot> Title: HTML vs. XHTML - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org)
  1371. # [23:38] <Lachy> q+
  1372. # [23:38] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, TVR, timbl, paulc, rubys, Lachy on the speaker queue
  1373. # [23:38] <Lachy> q+ to answer DanC's question
  1374. # [23:38] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, TVR, timbl, paulc, rubys, Lachy on the speaker queue
  1375. # [23:38] <annevk> mostly written by people outside the polyglot community, but it should be accurate
  1376. # [23:39] <annevk> DanC, ^^
  1377. # [23:39] <MikeSmith> DanC: any volunteers, among in the community of people who want to write polyglot documents, who volunteer to write a document describing how to do this correctly?
  1378. # [23:39] <MikeSmith> karl, URL for your draft about polyglot documents?
  1379. # [23:39] <tantek> Maciej: definition of the sliver matters
  1380. # [23:39] <paulc> q?
  1381. # [23:39] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, TVR, timbl, paulc, rubys, Lachy on the speaker queue
  1382. # [23:39] * Kai thanks annevk
  1383. # [23:39] <paulc> q-
  1384. # [23:39] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, TVR, timbl, rubys, Lachy on the speaker queue
  1385. # [23:39] <DanC> Maciej: it's not enough to just match both syntaxes; you have to avoid things that cause unexpected results...
  1386. # [23:40] <tantek> some just say conforming to both syntaxes
  1387. # [23:40] <tantek> others also want same tree (e.g no implied tags)
  1388. # [23:40] <Lachy> DanC, my HTML5 Reference also covers writing polyglot documents. There's a whole section devoted to it.
  1389. # [23:40] <DanC> ... so one challenge to [writing this up] is explaining the motivation for it [?]
  1390. # [23:40] <DanC> oh. I guess I forgot that, Lachy
  1391. # [23:40] <Lachy> q-
  1392. # [23:40] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, TVR, timbl, rubys on the speaker queue
  1393. # [23:40] <timbl> q+ timbl_ to talk about defining (a) a polyglot set of constrains and (b) the properties they have
  1394. # [23:40] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, TVR, timbl, rubys, timbl_ on the speaker queue
  1395. # [23:40] <DanC> Zakim, close the queue
  1396. # [23:40] <Zakim> ok, DanC, the speaker queue is closed
  1397. # [23:41] <paulc> ack Mike
  1398. # [23:41] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to note that the case of drop-in HTML5 parsers in XML toolchains doesn't work for documents that need to be signed (because we have an XML document signing
  1399. # [23:41] <Zakim> ... mechanism but not an HTML document signing mechanism)
  1400. # [23:41] * Zakim sees TVR, timbl, rubys, timbl_ on the speaker queue
  1401. # [23:41] <paulc> ack tvr
  1402. # [23:41] * Zakim sees timbl, rubys, timbl_ on the speaker queue
  1403. # [23:41] <annevk> (Pure polyglot fails with the first tag by the way. <html xmlns=...> ends up differently in the DOM.)
  1404. # [23:41] <DanC> MikeSmith: if you're using signed documents, you're not going to be able to [missed; help, Mike?]
  1405. # [23:41] <ht> Without going on the queue, can someone confirm that e.g. <div>Hello world is not legitimately servable as text/html ?
  1406. # [23:41] <MikeSmith> http://www.la-grange.net/2009/07/05/html5-xhtml5/ <- HTML 5 and XHTML 5 - one vocabulary, two serializations
  1407. # [23:41] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 and XHTML 5 - one vocabulary, two serializations (at www.la-grange.net)
  1408. # [23:42] <paulc> ack timbl
  1409. # [23:42] <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to mention tidy and to protest against a doubling the toolsets
  1410. # [23:42] <karl> MikeSmith, you have been quicker than me
  1411. # [23:42] * Zakim sees rubys, timbl_ on the speaker queue
  1412. # [23:42] <annevk> ht, yes, <!doctype html><title></title><div>Hellow world</div> would be needed
  1413. # [23:42] <DanC> TVR: years ago when work on XHTML started, there was an expectation of smooth evolution toward cleaner markup; we can engineer HTML 5 to make it grow or shrink
  1414. # [23:42] <paulc> q?
  1415. # [23:42] * Zakim sees rubys, timbl_ on the speaker queue
  1416. # [23:42] <noahm> q?
  1417. # [23:42] * Zakim sees rubys, timbl_ on the speaker queue
  1418. # [23:42] * Joins: masinter (user@72.254.91.11)
  1419. # [23:42] <annevk> ht, you need a DOCTYPE and the title element is also still required
  1420. # [23:42] <ht> Thanks anne, that's fine
  1421. # [23:42] <DanC> Hixie: we're trying to make it grow; with HTML 4, it was empty. HTML 5 makes it significantly larger
  1422. # [23:42] <MikeSmith> s/[missed; help, Mike?]/process them with HTML5 parser frontend on an XML toolchain
  1423. # [23:43] <DanC> TimBL: I use tidy to make XML... making an empty <blockquote /> or <div /> isn't something I do as a matter of course...
  1424. # [23:43] <ht> I was just checking that expected error recovery "doesn't count" as far as legitimate use of the media types is concerned
  1425. # [23:43] <MikeSmith> Larry has arrived
  1426. # [23:43] <Lachy> q+
  1427. # [23:43] * Zakim whispers to Lachy that the speaker queue has been closed
  1428. # [23:43] <DanC> ... and the insertion of <thead> between <table> and <tr> doesn't bother me because I'm not doing scripting/xpaths.
  1429. # [23:43] * Quits: Kangchan (Kangchan@72.254.12.64) (Ping timeout)
  1430. # [23:44] <DanC> ... so for lots of ordinary documents, it [polydocument document] is fine
  1431. # [23:44] * tantek notes that insertion of tbody may affect style rules (CSS) as well as the DOM/scripting/xpaths.
  1432. # [23:44] * Quits: plh (plh@128.30.52.28) (Quit: always accept cookies)
  1433. # [23:44] <DanC> TimBL: some shops have all sorts of content management with XML doing lots of things, one of which is the web site.
  1434. # [23:45] <paulc> ack rubys
  1435. # [23:45] * Zakim sees timbl_ on the speaker queue
  1436. # [23:45] <DanC> ... so I wouldn't want them to have to double their toolset [i.e. adding HTML 5 parsers] just to parse, e.g. HTML descriptions of people in HR systems
  1437. # [23:45] <rubys> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/infrastructure.html#extensibility => http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/11/05/Web3D
  1438. # [23:45] <pimpbot> Title: 2 Common infrastructure HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
  1439. # [23:46] <paulc> ack timbl
  1440. # [23:46] <Zakim> timbl_, you wanted to talk about defining (a) a polyglot set of constrains and (b) the properties they have
  1441. # [23:46] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1442. # [23:46] <Lachy> q+
  1443. # [23:46] * Zakim whispers to Lachy that the speaker queue has been closed
  1444. # [23:46] <DanC> SR: with years of practice in this space, it's [remarkably difficult] and the tools I develop show that people [mess it up in an amazing variety of ways]
  1445. # [23:46] * masinter wonders if the charter can be read as requiring an update to http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#guidelines
  1446. # [23:46] <pimpbot> Title: XHTML 1.0: The Extensible HyperText Markup Language (Second Edition) (at www.w3.org)
  1447. # [23:47] * DanC suddenly wonders how to open the q back up :-/
  1448. # [23:47] * annevk wonders if someone has ever tried to DOS the queue with that technique
  1449. # [23:47] <DanC> PaulC: the point about staying neutral makes sense, as does the request for somebody to write up how to write polyglot documents
  1450. # [23:47] <Lachy> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/
  1451. # [23:47] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 Reference (at dev.w3.org)
  1452. # [23:48] <DanC> Lachlan: a draft I'm working on has a section on how to write polyglot documents
  1453. # [23:48] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.34.46)
  1454. # [23:49] <DanC> Topic: text/html media type registration and IETF compatibility guidelines
  1455. # [23:49] <Julian> it's related to http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/53
  1456. # [23:49] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-53 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  1457. # [23:49] <DanC> q+
  1458. # [23:49] * Zakim whispers to DanC that the speaker queue has been closed
  1459. # [23:49] <MikeSmith> note that karl's document uses the term "versatile documents" instead of "polyglot documents"
  1460. # [23:49] <DanC> Zakim, open the queue
  1461. # [23:49] <Zakim> ok, DanC, the speaker queue is open
  1462. # [23:49] <Julian> q+
  1463. # [23:49] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  1464. # [23:49] <Lachy> These documents are also useful for understanding polyglot documents http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML_vs._XHTML http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_Useful_Warning_Requests#Polyglot_Document_Checking
  1465. # [23:49] <DanC> +1 "versatile"
  1466. # [23:49] <pimpbot> Title: HTML vs. XHTML - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org)
  1467. # [23:49] <DanC> PaulC: where are we on this?
  1468. # [23:49] <DanC> SR: lots of discussion; little in the way of concrete proposals
  1469. # [23:49] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8209] New: The term "XML document" needs xreffing throughout. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0054.html> ** [Bug 8208] New: The data-* attributes need to be clearer about their applicability to JS libraries, and in particular should have some suggestions about using unambiguous attribute names like data-dojo-range or data-jq-selector or whatever. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzil
  1470. # [23:50] <Julian> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2854
  1471. # [23:50] <noahm> FWIW, my comment was that "XML document" was an example of what may be many terms that would benefit from hyperlinks leading to definitions or clarifications.
  1472. # [23:50] <DanC> Mainter: [missed some]... IETF media type guidelines prohibit changing a media type registration so as to invalidate content that was previously valid
  1473. # [23:50] <DanC> s/Mainter/Masinter/
  1474. # [23:51] <ht> s/on this/on the text.html media type registration/
  1475. # [23:51] <annevk> specifically: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4288#section-9
  1476. # [23:51] <pimpbot> Title: RFC 4288 - Media Type Specifications and Registration Procedures (at tools.ietf.org)
  1477. # [23:51] <annevk> "When review is required, a change request may be denied if it renders entities that were valid under the previous definition invalid under the new definition"
  1478. # [23:51] <DanC> LMM: When Dan C. and I worked on the text/html media type RFC, we noted practice such as writing to specific implementations, with plugins, etc. ....
  1479. # [23:52] <DanC> ... that seems valuable text to keep
  1480. # [23:52] <DanC> LMM: [something about which version of HTML features were introduced in.] This history is useful.
  1481. # [23:52] <annevk> q+
  1482. # [23:52] * Zakim sees Julian, annevk on the speaker queue
  1483. # [23:53] <Hixie> q+
  1484. # [23:53] * Zakim sees Julian, annevk, Hixie on the speaker queue
  1485. # [23:53] * noahm I'd like to ask a point of information: do folks from the HTML WG understand what Larry is asking for?
  1486. # [23:53] <Hixie> q-
  1487. # [23:53] * Zakim sees Julian, annevk on the speaker queue
  1488. # [23:53] * tantek does not understand Larry's request/proposal.
  1489. # [23:53] <DanC> LMM: updating a media type registration requires going thru the same process that created the original. [scribe is losing the thread]
  1490. # [23:53] <Hixie> q+ to point to section 1.4
  1491. # [23:53] * Zakim sees Julian, annevk, Hixie on the speaker queue
  1492. # [23:54] * noahm Suggestion: chair ask LMM for two sentence definition of what he wants
  1493. # [23:54] * tantek seconds noahm's suggestion.
  1494. # [23:54] <Julian> q-
  1495. # [23:54] * Zakim sees annevk, Hixie on the speaker queue
  1496. # [23:54] <DanC> LMM: a document that says "there were these versions of HTML; now there's a new one: HTML 5"
  1497. # [23:54] <DanC> ... would be good.
  1498. # [23:55] <DanC> Paul: I hear you saying (a) there's historical material in the text/html media type spec that shouldn't be removed
  1499. # [23:55] <DanC> [scribe missed (b)]
  1500. # [23:55] <DanC> annevk: "When review is required, a change request may be denied if it renders entities that were valid under the previous definition invalid under the new definition" -- RFC 4288
  1501. # [23:56] <DanC> LMM: it's not only that old valid content should stay valid, but that old specifications as a whole are still relevant.
  1502. # [23:56] <noahm> q?
  1503. # [23:56] * Zakim sees annevk, Hixie on the speaker queue
  1504. # [23:56] <annevk> q-
  1505. # [23:56] * Zakim sees Hixie on the speaker queue
  1506. # [23:57] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.34.46) (Ping timeout)
  1507. # [23:57] <DanC> PaulC: so your suggestion is...?
  1508. # [23:57] <Hixie> ack
  1509. # [23:57] <Hixie> Zakim: ack
  1510. # [23:57] <annevk> lets play HTML5 the movie
  1511. # [23:58] <DanC> LMM: I asked that the media type registration be taken out and handled [later? after PR?]
  1512. # [23:58] <DanC> ack Hixie
  1513. # [23:58] <Zakim> Hixie, you wanted to point to section 1.4
  1514. # [23:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1515. # [23:58] <DanC> Hixie: I think section 1.4 of the current HTML 5 spec subsumes the history from the registration
  1516. # [23:59] * annevk ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRG5VNNUq_E
  1517. # [23:59] <pimpbot> Title: YouTube - HTML5 trailer - Find your Hero (at www.youtube.com)
  1518. # [23:59] <DanC> TimBL: as Director, I point out that mime type registration should be *inside* the spec, not separate, to prevent inconsistencies.
  1519. # [23:59] <DanC> PaulC: noted.
  1520. # Session Close: Fri Nov 06 00:00:00 2009

The end :)