/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-11-05 / end

Options:

# Session Start: Thu Nov 05 00:00:00 2009
# Session Ident: #html-wg
# [00:13] * Quits: annevk (opera@72.254.82.30) (Quit: annevk)
# [00:25] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.246.16.195)
# [00:30] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@83.252.236.152)
# [00:33] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.246.16.195) (Quit: mjs)
# [00:38] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.97.4) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [00:40] * Quits: Kai (chatzilla@72.254.84.216) (Ping timeout)
# [00:42] * Quits: tantek (tantek@72.254.104.232) (Quit: tantek)
# [00:51] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.244.25.251)
# [00:54] * Quits: plh (plh@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [01:02] * Quits: jun (jun@72.254.101.123) (Quit: jun)
# [01:03] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.97.4)
# [01:05] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.103.77)
# [01:05] * Joins: Kai (chatzilla@72.254.84.216)
# [01:07] * Joins: annevk (opera@72.254.82.30)
# [01:09] * Joins: jun (jun@72.254.101.123)
# [01:10] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169)
# [01:12] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
# [01:12] * Quits: jun (jun@72.254.101.123) (Quit: jun)
# [01:13] * Joins: tantek (tantek@72.254.104.232)
# [01:13] * Quits: aroben (aroben@71.58.77.15) (Connection reset by peer)
# [01:15] <MikeSmith> .t gsnedders
# [01:15] <phenny> Thu, 05 Nov 2009 00:15:22 GMT
# [01:16] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: That's no Europe/Stockholm
# [01:16] <gsnedders> *not
# [01:17] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: ah, yeah, I forgot you had relocated
# [01:17] * Quits: phenny (phenny@80.68.92.65) (Client exited)
# [01:18] * Joins: phenny (phenny@80.68.92.65)
# [01:19] <MikeSmith> .t gsnedders
# [01:19] <phenny> Thu, 05 Nov 2009 01:19:13 CET
# [01:19] <gsnedders> There we go.
# [01:19] <gsnedders> I really ought to try harder at this whole sleep thing ;P
# [01:19] * Quits: phenny (phenny@80.68.92.65) (Client exited)
# [01:20] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: sleep is for the weak
# [01:20] <gsnedders> :)
# [01:28] * Joins: phenny (phenny@80.68.92.65)
# [01:29] <MikeSmith> .t Linköping
# [01:29] <phenny> MikeSmith: Sorry, I don't know about the 'Linköping' timezone.
# [01:30] * Quits: phenny (phenny@80.68.92.65) (Client exited)
# [01:30] * Joins: phenny (phenny@80.68.92.65)
# [01:30] <MikeSmith> .t Linköping
# [01:30] <phenny> MikeSmith: Sorry, I don't know about the 'Linköping' timezone.
# [01:30] * Quits: phenny (phenny@80.68.92.65) (Client exited)
# [01:31] * Joins: phenny (phenny@80.68.92.65)
# [01:31] <MikeSmith> .t Linköping
# [01:31] <phenny> MikeSmith: Sorry, I don't know about the 'Linköping' timezone.
# [01:31] <MikeSmith> phoo
# [01:40] <Philip> .t LinkÃ¶ping
# [01:40] <phenny> Philip: Sorry, I don't know about the 'LinkÃ¶ping' timezone.
# [01:41] <MikeSmith> python
# [01:41] <MikeSmith> this is an a config file with magic encoding comment to give the encoding as UTF=8
# [01:41] <MikeSmith> UTF-8
# [01:42] <MikeSmith> do I still have to do the u'' thing?
# [01:45] <Philip> Probably
# [01:45] <Philip> (assuming Python 2.x)
# [01:50] * Quits: phenny (phenny@80.68.92.65) (Client exited)
# [01:51] * Joins: phenny (phenny@80.68.92.65)
# [01:51] <MikeSmith> .t Linköping
# [01:51] <phenny> MikeSmith: Sorry, I don't know about the 'Linköping' timezone.
# [01:51] * Quits: phenny (phenny@80.68.92.65) (Client exited)
# [01:51] * Joins: phenny (phenny@80.68.92.65)
# [01:51] <MikeSmith> .t Linköping
# [01:51] <phenny> Thu, 05 Nov 2009 02:51:53 EET
# [01:52] * Philip gets out the party poppers
# [02:00] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.244.25.251) (Quit: mjs)
# [02:14] * Quits: phenny (phenny@80.68.92.65) (Client exited)
# [02:14] * Joins: phenny (phenny@80.68.92.65)
# [02:15] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.203.15.171)
# [02:26] * Joins: jun (jun@72.254.101.123)
# [02:33] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@83.252.236.152) (Quit: gsnedders)
# [02:51] * Quits: w3org (derekr@69.198.205.66) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [02:57] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Quit: tlr)
# [02:58] * Quits: Kai (chatzilla@72.254.84.216) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.4/20091016092926])
# [02:58] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.97.4) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [02:58] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
# [02:59] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@72.254.49.2) (Quit: cardona507)
# [02:59] * Quits: jun (jun@72.254.101.123) (Quit: jun)
# [02:59] * Quits: plh (plh@128.30.52.28) (Quit: always accept cookies)
# [02:59] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.103.77) (Ping timeout)
# [03:00] <MikeSmith> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21288
# [03:00] <pimpbot> Title: Bug 21288 Implement HTML5's sandbox attribute for iframes (at bugs.webkit.org)
# [03:02] * Quits: myakura (myakura@72.254.122.171) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [03:06] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmithX@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.)
# [03:12] * Joins: jun (jun@72.254.101.123)
# [03:13] * Quits: jun (jun@72.254.101.123) (Quit: jun)
# [03:13] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.88.239) (Quit: dsinger)
# [03:17] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.121.222)
# [03:19] * Quits: tantek (tantek@72.254.104.232) (Quit: tantek)
# [03:27] * Joins: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240)
# [03:38] <pimpbot> planet: HTML 5 Doctype? <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1677974/html-5-doctype>
# [03:39] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.97.4)
# [03:41] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.121.222) (Ping timeout)
# [03:44] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.97.4) (Connection reset by peer)
# [03:44] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.97.4)
# [03:45] * Joins: cardona507_ (carloscard@209.172.114.240)
# [03:46] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240) (Connection reset by peer)
# [03:46] * cardona507_ is now known as cardona507
# [03:49] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240) (Connection reset by peer)
# [03:50] * Joins: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240)
# [03:50] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.97.4) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [04:01] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@17.246.16.195)
# [04:03] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.203.15.171) (Ping timeout)
# [04:03] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@83.252.236.152)
# [04:04] * Quits: mjs_ (mjs@17.246.16.195) (Ping timeout)
# [04:07] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240) (Connection reset by peer)
# [04:08] * Joins: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240)
# [04:11] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240) (Quit: cardona507)
# [04:24] * Quits: annevk (opera@72.254.82.30) (Connection reset by peer)
# [04:59] * Joins: mjs (mjs@69.181.42.237)
# [05:01] * Joins: J_Voracek (irchon@166.205.7.159)
# [05:01] * Quits: J_Voracek (irchon@166.205.7.159) (Client exited)
# [05:27] * Joins: J_Voracek (irchon@166.205.7.166)
# [05:27] * Quits: J_Voracek (irchon@166.205.7.166) (Client exited)
# [05:51] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@83.252.236.152) (Quit: gsnedders)
# [05:56] * Joins: battletoads (4384f110@64.62.228.82)
# [05:57] <battletoads> hi
# [05:57] * Joins: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240)
# [05:58] <battletoads> hello?
# [05:59] * Quits: battletoads (4384f110@64.62.228.82) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
# [06:01] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240) (Connection reset by peer)
# [06:02] * Joins: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240)
# [06:31] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240) (Connection reset by peer)
# [06:32] * Joins: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240)
# [06:39] * Joins: cardona507_ (carloscard@209.172.114.240)
# [06:39] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240) (Connection reset by peer)
# [06:39] * cardona507_ is now known as cardona507
# [06:54] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@68.126.189.44)
# [07:06] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240) (Connection reset by peer)
# [07:06] * Joins: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240)
# [07:07] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240) (Quit: cardona507)
# [07:35] * Quits: gavin (gavin@99.226.207.11) (Ping timeout)
# [07:41] * Joins: gavin (gavin@99.226.207.11)
# [08:14] * Joins: Olivers (Olivers@81.4.161.66)
# [08:19] <Olivers> Hi all.
# [08:35] * Joins: annevk (opera@72.254.82.30)
# [08:40] <pimpbot> planet: ugly hack for some weird html5lib thing I can't fix right now <http://hg.diveintohtml5.org/hgweb.cgi/rev/8be36ef7c1a47b97e0bc3cda872c7d3e11d91f11>
# [09:17] * Quits: laplink (link@213.151.114.60) (Quit: Leaving)
# [09:20] * Quits: annevk (opera@72.254.82.30) (Ping timeout)
# [12:05] * Disconnected
# [12:06] * Attempting to rejoin channel #html-wg
# [12:06] * Rejoined channel #html-wg
# [12:06] * Topic is 'Pursuing conformance solutions for the N-body gravitational system known as "the Web", and in general, collectively performing various acts of unparalleled hubris (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/)'
# [12:06] * Set by MikeSmith on Thu Jun 18 06:02:08
# [12:18] <thugbot> [localhost] MikeSmith: I can't reach bugzilla
# [12:22] <hsivonen> it seems to me that Content MathML wants to be Lisp
# [12:23] <jgraham> All W3C technologies keep adding features until they are lisp with angle brackets?
# [12:25] <jgraham> Doesn't really have the same ring to it
# [12:26] * hsivonen can't remember how Scheme deals with namespaces
# [12:27] <hsivonen> that is, I don't remember if symbols are app-global or not
# [12:27] <hsivonen> does Lisp have Namespaces?
# [12:28] <hsivonen> the word "namespace" doesn't appear in the index of SICP
# [12:35] * Quits: mjs (mjs@69.181.42.237) (Quit: mjs)
# [14:38] * Disconnected
# [14:39] * Attempting to rejoin channel #html-wg
# [14:39] * Rejoined channel #html-wg
# [14:39] * Topic is 'Pursuing conformance solutions for the N-body gravitational system known as "the Web", and in general, collectively performing various acts of unparalleled hubris (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/)'
# [14:39] * Set by MikeSmith on Thu Jun 18 06:02:08
# [14:48] * Quits: tH (Rob@82.4.89.172) (Ping timeout)
# [14:58] * Joins: tH (Rob@82.4.89.172)
# [15:21] * Quits: tH (Rob@82.4.89.172) (Connection reset by peer)
# [15:56] * Joins: aroben (aroben@71.58.77.15)
# [16:01] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.62.251)
# [16:22] * Joins: tantek (tantek@72.254.84.166)
# [16:23] * Joins: rubys (rubys@209.172.114.240)
# [16:31] * Joins: timeless_mbp (timeless@24.6.182.21)
# [16:43] * Parts: rubys (rubys@209.172.114.240)
# [16:46] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@68.126.191.59) (Quit: dsinger)
# [16:58] * Joins: mjs (mjs@69.181.42.237)
# [17:15] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
# [17:17] * Quits: mjs (mjs@69.181.42.237) (Quit: mjs)
# [17:20] * Quits: tantek (tantek@72.254.84.166) (Quit: tantek)
# [17:22] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217) (Quit: Laura)
# [17:25] * Quits: timeless_mbp (timeless@24.6.182.21) (Quit: timeless_mbp)
# [17:25] * Joins: BryanSullivan (Bryan@135.214.40.68)
# [17:26] * Joins: annevk (opera@72.254.60.246)
# [17:28] <annevk> anything happening so far? I overslept as well...
# [17:34] * Joins: cardona507 (carloscard@72.254.11.214)
# [17:36] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169)
# [17:38] * Joins: myakura (myakura@72.254.81.150)
# [17:41] * Joins: jun (jun@72.254.101.63)
# [17:41] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.62.251) (Client exited)
# [17:42] * Joins: Stevef (chatzilla@72.254.122.123)
# [17:42] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88)
# [17:43] * Joins: paulc (48fe77fa@128.30.52.43)
# [17:44] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88) (Connection reset by peer)
# [17:44] <paulc> Currently 8:43 PT and 20 WG present
# [17:44] <paulc> Awaiting co-chairs and will start soon
# [17:44] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88)
# [17:44] * Joins: TabAtkins (chatzilla@72.254.112.118)
# [17:45] * Joins: cnilsson (41dab5bd@128.30.52.43)
# [17:46] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88) (Quit: Leaving)
# [17:46] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88)
# [17:46] * Joins: timely (timeless@65.75.195.122)
# [17:47] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30)
# [17:47] <paulc> Meeting outline is at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Oct/1032.html
# [17:47] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG meeting at TPAC - unconference style from Maciej Stachowiak on 2009-10-28 (public-html@w3.org from October 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
# [17:48] * timely wonders if zakim is available
# [17:54] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
# [17:55] * Quits: jun (jun@72.254.101.63) (Quit: jun)
# [17:56] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@72.254.117.7)
# [17:58] * Joins: rubys (rubys@72.254.102.5)
# [17:58] * Joins: pererik (pe@72.254.11.205)
# [17:58] * Joins: jun (jun@72.254.101.63)
# [17:59] * Joins: Vladimir (chatzilla@72.254.121.93)
# [17:59] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.87.163)
# [18:00] * Joins: w3org (derekr@69.198.205.66)
# [18:01] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.11.203)
# [18:01] * Joins: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254)
# [18:01] * Joins: manu (chatzilla@206.158.104.51)
# [18:01] * Joins: cshelly (48fe7085@128.30.52.43)
# [18:02] * Joins: wonsuk (wslee@72.254.12.27)
# [18:02] * Joins: silvia (Adium@72.254.83.191)
# [18:02] * manu is uninformed (generally and specifically) - do we have a telecon today?
# [18:02] * Parts: cardona507 (carloscard@72.254.11.214)
# [18:02] * Joins: JF (chatzilla@72.254.61.214)
# [18:02] <Julian> Manu, no we don't
# [18:02] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmithX@mcclure.w3.org)
# [18:02] <manu> Thanks, Julian. :)
# [18:02] <Julian> Manu, but we'll log things to the IRC channel
# [18:02] * Joins: cardona507 (carloscard@72.254.11.214)
# [18:03] <manu> oh, so the TPAC meeting is being logged to IRC?
# [18:03] <Julian> We are encouraged to self-scribe what we're saying
# [18:03] <Julian> We can also relay back your feedback into the room
# [18:03] <manu> groovy... thanks to the TPAC scribes/relays :)
# [18:04] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
# [18:04] <Julian> ...Paul Cotton is explaining the logistics...
# [18:04] * Quits: w3org (derekr@69.198.205.66) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [18:04] * Joins: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@72.254.89.93)
# [18:04] * Joins: w3org (derekr@69.198.205.66)
# [18:05] * Joins: glenng (48fe68fb@64.62.228.82)
# [18:05] <Julian> ...joint meeting with TAG at 2pm...
# [18:05] * timely thanks scribes
# [18:05] <Julian> ...2 more joint sessions tomorrow...
# [18:06] <Julian> ...W3D consortium 9am...
# [18:06] * Quits: w3org (derekr@69.198.205.66) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [18:06] * Joins: w3org (derekr@69.198.205.66)
# [18:06] * Parts: sylvaing (sylvaing@72.254.117.7)
# [18:06] <Julian> ....joint meeting with TC39 later on...
# [18:06] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
# [18:07] <Julian> ...X3D at 10 pm...
# [18:07] <Julian> am
# [18:07] * Joins: ArtB (c0646811@128.30.52.43)
# [18:07] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@72.254.117.7)
# [18:08] <Julian> ...we'll start 9am tomorrow...
# [18:09] * Quits: TabAtkins (chatzilla@72.254.112.118) (Ping timeout)
# [18:09] <Julian> ...introductions...
# [18:10] <MikeSmith> Joe Williams
# [18:10] * Joins: tross (48fe0cc6@128.30.52.43)
# [18:12] * Joins: veosotano (veosotano@89.131.202.114)
# [18:13] * Joins: tantek (tantek@72.254.84.166)
# [18:13] * Joins: weinig (weinig@72.254.105.115)
# [18:13] <Julian> ...collection suggestions for breakout sessions...
# [18:13] * Joins: frankolivier (836b0046@64.62.228.82)
# [18:13] * Joins: TabAtkins (chatzilla@72.254.112.118)
# [18:14] <Julian> Cynthia: HTML semantics vs Aria
# [18:14] * Quits: jun (jun@72.254.101.63) (Quit: jun)
# [18:14] * Joins: mth (opera@72.254.58.170)
# [18:15] * Joins: jallan (jallan@72.254.102.242)
# [18:15] <Julian> Frank: Accessibility and Canvas
# [18:16] <Julian> Sylvia: video accessibility
# [18:16] * Julian Mike, do we need to invite a logger to the channel?
# [18:16] <annevk> RRSAgent is here
# [18:17] <Julian> Mike: testing
# [18:17] * MikeSmith Julian - yeah, being logged already
# [18:17] * Joins: jun (jun@72.254.101.63)
# [18:17] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:17] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [18:18] <Julian> Tony: decentralized extensibility
# [18:18] <Julian> Nikunj: client-controlled caching
# [18:19] <MikeSmith> @bug 8152
# [18:19] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88) (Connection reset by peer)
# [18:19] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8152 contributor@whatwg.org, P3, NEW, Consider removing the <progress> and <meter> fallback magic
# [18:19] <Julian> Ian: progress and meter
# [18:19] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88)
# [18:19] <Julian> Joe: <object>
# [18:20] <Julian> Brian: client-side push
# [18:21] <Julian> ...: lcoal storage concurrency problems, possible solutions
# [18:21] * Joins: JonathanJ (hollobit@72.254.12.13)
# [18:22] <MikeSmith> Julian: profile attribute
# [18:22] <timely> s/lcoal/local/
# [18:22] <Julian> Julian: profile attribute
# [18:23] <Julian> Julian: RDFa vs microdata (what should be in the base spec)
# [18:23] <Julian> Paul points out this may overlap with TAG session
# [18:23] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [18:23] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ
# [18:23] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
# [18:24] <Julian> Joe: author/UA duties for the two mime types
# [18:24] <Julian> Steve F.: canvas in or out?
# [18:25] <Julian> Tantek: predefined vocabularies and coordination with other standards groups
# [18:25] <Julian> Mike: authoring material
# [18:26] <MikeSmith> or materials aimed at authors
# [18:27] <Julian> Patrick: HTML and MathML together
# [18:28] <Julian> Paul: mentions WG thread on MathML feedback
# [18:29] <MikeSmith> close action-157
# [18:29] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-157.
# [18:29] <trackbot> ACTION-157 Request two smaller rooms (big enough for 10-12 people) for breakout sessions closed
# [18:29] <MikeSmith> action-127?
# [18:29] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-127
# [18:29] <trackbot> ACTION-127 -- Paul Cotton to establish process for "official WG response" to other WG's RFC on LC drafts -- due 2009-10-01 -- OPEN
# [18:29] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/127
# [18:29] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-127 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [18:30] <Julian> Paul: mentions cross-wg review of other specs
# [18:31] <Julian> Ian: MathML XML entities
# [18:31] <Julian> ...character entities...
# [18:32] * Joins: fantasai (fantasai@66.252.19.122)
# [18:32] <fantasai> Is anyone taking minutes?
# [18:32] <fantasai> ookkay
# [18:32] <fantasai> Proposed topics
# [18:32] * Julian i was but if you want to take over...
# [18:32] <fantasai> 1. Cynthia - HTML vs Aria semantics
# [18:33] <fantasai> 2. Accessibility in Canvas
# [18:33] <fantasai> 3. Accessibility in video (A11y? video?)
# [18:33] <fantasai> 4. Kris - Testing
# [18:33] <fantasai> 5. Tony - DCE
# [18:33] <fantasai> 6. Nicunj - Caching
# [18:33] * Joins: SCain (sally.cain@72.254.84.49)
# [18:33] <MikeSmith> action-130
# [18:33] <MikeSmith> action-130?
# [18:33] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-130
# [18:33] <trackbot> ACTION-130 -- David Singer to review status of video codec positions -- due 2009-11-05 -- OPEN
# [18:33] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/130
# [18:33] <fantasai> 7. Ian - 8152-progress in metering (?)
# [18:33] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-130 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [18:33] <timely> s/xunj/kunj/
# [18:33] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30)
# [18:33] <timely> s/cunj/kunj/
# [18:33] <fantasai> 8. Joe - Object tag
# [18:33] * Joins: mattmay (mattmay@72.254.12.175)
# [18:33] <fantasai> 9. Connectionless push
# [18:34] <fantasai> 10. Local storage recurrency problems, possible solutions
# [18:34] <MikeSmith> scribe: fantasai
# [18:34] <fantasai> 11. Profile attribute (part of DCE?)
# [18:34] * Quits: w3org (derekr@69.198.205.66) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [18:34] <fantasai> 12. Next steps on RDFa + microdata
# [18:34] <fantasai> 13. Authors vs browser responsibilities
# [18:34] <fantasai> 14. Status on canvas - inout?
# [18:35] <fantasai> 15. Pre-defined microdata vocab (tantek)
# [18:35] <fantasai> 16. Authoring materials (mat. aimed @ authors)
# [18:35] <fantasai> 17. HTML + MathML together
# [18:35] <fantasai> 18. MathML update - XML character entities
# [18:35] <fantasai> 19. Video codecs (ACTION-130)
# [18:35] <fantasai> 20. HTML Media type (Issue-53)
# [18:35] <MikeSmith> i/Proposed topics/scribe: fantasai
# [18:35] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [18:35] <ArtB> ACTION-130?
# [18:35] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-130
# [18:35] <trackbot> ACTION-130 -- David Singer to review status of video codec positions -- due 2009-11-05 -- OPEN
# [18:35] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/130
# [18:35] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
# [18:35] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-130 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [18:36] * Quits: paulc (48fe77fa@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
# [18:36] * Joins: wendy (chatzilla@72.254.114.205)
# [18:36] * Joins: PIon (chatzilla@72.254.108.83)
# [18:36] <fantasai> The chair notes that the HTMLWG should review Last Call for ??, and that several members have volunteered to review the draft
# [18:37] * ArtB grins DCE==namespace
# [18:37] <fantasai> Suggests that we collect comments and send them, not worry about trying to get consensus on a WG position
# [18:37] <annevk> ISSUE-53 is deferred to after CR
# [18:37] <annevk> "PR blocker"
# [18:37] <fantasai> Suggests that the HTMLWG should remember to review drafts of related WGs, not be too introspective into the work of this WG only
# [18:37] <fantasai> There are 15 open slots
# [18:37] <annevk> maciej enters
# [18:38] <Julian> Anne, but there's a controversy about what to do, and we should talk about that.
# [18:38] * fantasai is the chair speaking Paul Cotton?
# [18:38] <Julian> yes
# [18:38] <fantasai> Chair asking whether it's worth breaking out
# [18:39] <MikeSmith> s/Chair/Paul
# [18:39] <fantasai> Paul: Shoudl testing be a break-out session?
# [18:39] * Joins: mjs (mjs@72.254.59.20)
# [18:39] <gsnedders|work> s/dl/ld/
# [18:39] <MikeSmith> s/The chair notes/Paul notes
# [18:39] * gsnedders|work is not going to do what he did last year and just spend the entire meeting correcting fantasai's typos :)
# [18:39] <fantasai> some comment about parallelization, free slots might be only 6
# [18:39] <fantasai> Maciej takes over
# [18:40] * Joins: oedipus (4615bbaa@128.30.52.43)
# [18:40] * fantasai doesn't think it's that important, as long as people fix the things that are wrong or missing :)
# [18:40] * ArtB thinks the agenda is: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Oct/1032.html
# [18:40] <fantasai> Maciej: We had space for a total of 15 break-out sessions, there are 20 suggested topics
# [18:40] <fantasai> Maciej: Does anyone think any of these could fit into a half-size time slot (45min)?
# [18:41] <fantasai> Ian suggests 7 and 18
# [18:41] <fantasai> Anne suggests 17
# [18:41] <fantasai> ?: 10 is half-size
# [18:41] <fantasai> ??: 9 as well
# [18:41] <fantasai> Maciej is skeptical
# [18:41] * gsnedders|work can't really do that when he isn't there this time :)
# [18:41] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
# [18:41] <fantasai> Tantek: 15
# [18:42] * Joins: prolix (4615bbaa@128.30.52.43)
# [18:42] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:42] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html ArtB
# [18:42] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
# [18:42] <pimpbot> planet: Will Visual Studio 2010 support HTML 5? <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1682180/will-visual-studio-2010-support-html-5>
# [18:42] <MikeSmith> meeting: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara
# [18:42] <fantasai> Maciej: So we've got 5 half-slot sessions, that takes away 2 slots
# [18:42] <fantasai> Maciej: that's still 18 / 15
# [18:43] <prolix> q+ is there a phone bridge?
# [18:43] <fantasai> ???: If we can discuss the object topic 8 in context of decentralized extensibility..
# [18:43] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30)
# [18:43] <prolix> q+ to ask if there is a pone bridge
# [18:43] <fantasai> ????, Tantek: 11
# [18:43] <fantasai> Maciej: So 11, 5, 8 all one sesssion
# [18:43] <tantek> fantasai - that was julian
# [18:43] <Eliot_Graff> i do not think there's a phone bridge
# [18:43] <tantek> that mentioned the profile attribute
# [18:44] <fantasai> s/????/Julian/
# [18:44] * fantasai tantek, I'm not going to be cleaning up these minuts, so just replace whatever you think should be replaced
# [18:44] * prolix thanks, elitoGraff
# [18:45] <fantasai> Maciej: We may have some extra time since it seems we might finish early with this session
# [18:45] <fantasai> Maciej: Today we have 7 slots plus 1 slot that is a joint session with the TAG
# [18:46] <fantasai> Maciej draws out the schedule slots
# [18:46] <fantasai> There are 8 slots in two columns on the board right now
# [18:46] <prolix> wil there be a phone bridge or no?
# [18:47] <fantasai> Maciej draws another slot table for Friday
# [18:47] <gsnedders|work> prolix: Not
# [18:48] <prolix> thanks, gseddrs
# [18:48] * fantasai prolix, you don't need a phone bridge, just convince them to time your topic for when I'm available to minute :P
# [18:48] <fantasai> Maciej suggests putting the combination sessions into the longer slots
# [18:48] * gsnedders|work notes fantasai is egoistical :P
# [18:48] * prolix thanks, fantasai <grin>
# [18:49] * fantasai isn't available this afternoon
# [18:49] * fantasai and not tomorrow 9am-10am, will be in transit from SF
# [18:50] * Quits: rubys (rubys@72.254.102.5) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [18:50] <fantasai> Slots for today are 11-12:30, 14-15:30, 16-17, 17-18
# [18:50] * gsnedders|work does however also note that it is true that fantasai is probably the best scribe he knows
# [18:50] * Joins: shelleyp (shelleyp@69.155.29.71)
# [18:51] * gsnedders|work (see, I'm not all mean to you) :P
# [18:51] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [18:51] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ
# [18:51] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
# [18:51] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
# [18:51] <RRSAgent> ok, MikeSmith; I will not start a new log at midnight
# [18:51] * Quits: SCain (sally.cain@72.254.84.49) (Ping timeout)
# [18:51] <fantasai> Friday slots are 9-10, 10-12, 13:30-15, 15:30-16:30, 16:30-17
# [18:52] <fantasai> TAG is today at 14:00
# [18:52] <fantasai> TC-39 tomorrow at 10
# [18:52] * Julian maybe somebody can put this into an iCal resource?
# [18:53] <fantasai> current proposals: 15+17 tomorrow at 10, 9+10 tomorrow at 13:30, 5+8+11 tomorrow at 13:30
# [18:53] <fantasai> 1 today at 11
# [18:53] <fantasai> 2 at 16:00
# [18:54] <fantasai> Topic 3 has been renamed to Video
# [18:54] <fantasai> Sylvia suggests merging with codecs and putting in a longer slot
# [18:54] * Joins: timeless_mbp (timeless@63.245.220.224)
# [18:55] <fantasai> Tantek: The 5811 session will be one of the hardest sessions that we have. I suggest doing it sooner rather than later while everyone is fresher
# [18:55] * Quits: inimino (inimino@67.207.138.202) (Client exited)
# [18:55] * Quits: Stevef (chatzilla@72.254.122.123) (Ping timeout)
# [18:55] <fantasai> Tantek: Also many other things might depend on the outcome of that
# [18:55] <fantasai> MikeSmith: We might also want to discuss that before the TAG joint session
# [18:55] * Quits: veosotano (veosotano@89.131.202.114) (Quit: veosotano)
# [18:55] * Joins: inimino (inimino@67.207.138.202)
# [18:55] <fantasai> Tantek: It'd be helpful to have consensus on some things before talking with TAG
# [18:55] <fantasai> 5+8+11 moved to 11am today
# [18:56] * Joins: MichaelC_ (Michael@128.30.52.30)
# [18:56] <fantasai> 4 slotted for 16:00 today
# [18:56] <fantasai> 4 is moving
# [18:56] <fantasai> to ...
# [18:56] <Eliot_Graff> 9 am tomorrow
# [18:57] <fantasai> 15:30 tomorrow
# [18:57] <Eliot_Graff> and then moved to 15:30 tomorrow
# [18:57] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212)
# [18:57] <fantasai> 6 slotted for 16:00 today
# [18:58] <annevk> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Apvkq1IRZaQVdEFieXBXVHVkVWZaWlFNVDJpU1I2eGc&hl=en
# [18:58] <pimpbot> Title: Welcome to Google Docs (at spreadsheets.google.com)
# [18:58] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
# [18:58] * Joins: Stevef (chatzilla@72.254.122.123)
# [18:58] <fantasai> 7+17 assigned 13:30 tomorrow
# [18:59] * Joins: SCain (sally.cain@72.254.84.49)
# [18:59] <fantasai> 12 for 17:00 today
# [18:59] * Joins: krisk (48fe70a0@128.30.52.43)
# [18:59] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
# [18:59] * MichaelC_ is now known as MichaelC
# [19:00] <fantasai> Joe: Seems like there's a tipping point between text/html and application/xhtml+xml. The author and browser have different responsibilities
# [19:00] <fantasai> 7+15 at 13:30 tomorrow
# [19:00] <fantasai> opposit 9+10
# [19:01] <fantasai> s/sit/site/
# [19:01] <fantasai> 20 for 16:30
# [19:01] <fantasai> 17+18 for 15:30
# [19:01] <fantasai> open slot at the end of the day friday
# [19:01] <fantasai> Maciej: Anyone forsee any bad conflicts, anything you want moved? We have some slack in the schedule
# [19:02] <fantasai> 14 and X30 for 9am tomorrow
# [19:02] <fantasai> Maciej has scheduled 15+17 twice
# [19:02] <fantasai> open slot at 10am Fri
# [19:02] * Joins: DanC (connolly@72.254.120.7)
# [19:02] <fantasai> 3+19 (Video) placed opposite TC-39 at 10am tomorrow (2hr slot)
# [19:03] <fantasai> Maciej: Any other comments/
# [19:04] <fantasai> 20 moved to 14:00 today
# [19:04] <fantasai> Joe: X3D has a use of canvas that will blow your mind, might be some interest between those parts
# [19:04] <fantasai> Maciej swaps 14 and 12
# [19:05] * Joins: w3org (derekr@69.198.205.66)
# [19:05] <fantasai> 14 at 17 today
# [19:05] <fantasai> 12 at 9am tom
# [19:05] <fantasai> Maceij: Ok, we'll go with this. We can move things around later if necessary
# [19:06] * ArtB thanks AnneVK for the table!
# [19:08] <myakura> do we have a slot for authoring materials?
# [19:09] <fantasai> Tantek proposes less time for 20 - HTML Media Types
# [19:09] <fantasai> it is now swapped with 2
# [19:09] <fantasai> Maciej writes out the schedule
# [19:09] <fantasai> Today:
# [19:09] <fantasai> 11-12:30 AM
# [19:09] <Julian> Anne, you're keeping this up-to-date right?
# [19:10] <fantasai> Session A: HTML vs ARIA semantics
# [19:10] <annevk> Julian, several people are
# [19:10] <fantasai> Session B: DCE , Object , Profile
# [19:10] <Julian> great
# [19:10] <fantasai> 14-15:30 (2 PM)
# [19:10] <fantasai> A: Canvas Accessibility
# [19:10] <fantasai> B: TAG
# [19:10] <fantasai> 16-17 (4 PM)
# [19:11] <fantasai> A: HTML Media Types
# [19:11] <fantasai> B: Caching
# [19:11] <annevk> here is a published version of the schedule that is updated as people make changes: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tAbypWTudUfZZQMT2iSR6xg&output=html
# [19:11] <pimpbot> Title: htmlwg schedule (at spreadsheets.google.com)
# [19:11] <fantasai> 17-18 (5 PM)
# [19:11] <fantasai> A: Canvas Status
# [19:11] <fantasai> B: Author vs Browser Responsibilities
# [19:12] * Quits: manu (chatzilla@206.158.104.51) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceweasel 3.0.12/2009082121])
# [19:12] <fantasai> 16, authoring materials, slotted for 16:30 tomorrow
# [19:13] <fantasai> 2nd track in this room (track with TAG), and 1st track in another room
# [19:13] * Joins: VagnerW3CBrasil (chatzilla@72.254.101.96)
# [19:13] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88) (Connection reset by peer)
# [19:13] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88)
# [19:13] <fantasai> other room is called Monterey?
# [19:14] * Quits: shelleyp (shelleyp@69.155.29.71) (Quit: shelleyp)
# [19:15] <fantasai> Maciej starts the break early
# [19:15] <fantasai> since there is nothing left to discuss for the schedule
# [19:16] * fantasai signs off for the moment then
# [19:17] * Quits: weinig (weinig@72.254.105.115) (Quit: weinig)
# [19:17] <fantasai> Monterey sessions will be in #html-wg2
# [19:17] <oedipus> thank you VERY much fantasiai
# [19:17] <oedipus> er, fantasai
# [19:17] * myakura kinda wants to suggest #html2-wg
# [19:18] <fantasai> HTML vs ARIA will be in their own task force channel
# [19:18] <cshelly> HTML + ARIA session will be on IRC channel #aapi at 11 PST (in 42 minutes)
# [19:18] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88) (Quit: Leaving)
# [19:18] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88)
# [19:18] <silvia> we'll have #video for the video discussion
# [19:19] * Quits: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@72.254.89.93) (Quit: Now if you will excuse me, I have a giant ball of oil to throw out my window)
# [19:19] <Lachy> krijnh, can you log #html-wg2 ?
# [19:19] * Joins: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@72.254.89.93)
# [19:20] * myakura notices that #aapi and #video don't have a namespace prefix. DCE?
# [19:21] <Hixie> myakura: it's a great example of DCE
# [19:21] <Hixie> no central authority to synchronise the names
# [19:21] <Hixie> no conflicts in practice
# [19:21] <Hixie> usable
# [19:21] <Hixie> intuitive
# [19:22] * Quits: ArtB (c0646811@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
# [19:22] * Quits: Stevef (chatzilla@72.254.122.123) (Ping timeout)
# [19:23] * Quits: cshelly (48fe7085@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
# [19:23] <myakura> heh
# [19:23] * Quits: pererik (pe@72.254.11.205) (Ping timeout)
# [19:24] * Quits: myakura (myakura@72.254.81.150) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [19:25] * Quits: Vladimir (chatzilla@72.254.121.93) (Ping timeout)
# [19:25] * Quits: tross (48fe0cc6@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
# [19:25] <oedipus> anne, could you add the IRC channel to the google spreadsheet?
# [19:25] <oedipus> thanks
# [19:25] * Quits: krisk (48fe70a0@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
# [19:26] * Quits: gavin (gavin@99.226.207.11) (Ping timeout)
# [19:27] * Quits: JF (chatzilla@72.254.61.214) (Ping timeout)
# [19:27] * Joins: gavin (gavin@99.226.207.11)
# [19:28] * Quits: wendy (chatzilla@72.254.114.205) (Ping timeout)
# [19:31] * Joins: weinig (weinig@72.254.105.115)
# [19:31] * Quits: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@72.254.89.93) (Ping timeout)
# [19:34] * Quits: weinig (weinig@72.254.105.115) (Quit: weinig)
# [19:35] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Quit: tlr)
# [19:37] * Quits: cnilsson (41dab5bd@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
# [19:42] <pimpbot> planet: point to external html5.js script for validation oddity <http://hg.diveintohtml5.org/hgweb.cgi/rev/c1d7d5e7b3e0a0c4956745c8a24d278ea61e90da> ** What are unusual and creative usages of html5 canvas <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1599792/what-are-unusual-and-creative-usages-of-html5-canvas> ** html5 canvas element and svg. <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1650415/html5-canvas-element-and-svg> ** Firefox 3.6 Beta 1 is now
# [19:46] <annevk> the alternate room is not monterey it is room 1243
# [19:47] * Joins: Stevef (chatzilla@72.254.122.123)
# [19:51] * Quits: Stevef (chatzilla@72.254.122.123) (Ping timeout)
# [19:51] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.11.203) (Quit: eric_carlson)
# [19:52] * Joins: kford (chatzilla@72.254.103.138)
# [19:52] * Quits: mattmay (mattmay@72.254.12.175) (Ping timeout)
# [19:53] * Quits: silvia (Adium@72.254.83.191) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [19:55] * Joins: mattmay (mattmay@72.254.12.175)
# [19:56] * Joins: myakura (myakura@72.254.81.150)
# [19:58] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212) (Quit: dsinger)
# [19:58] * Quits: DanC (connolly@72.254.120.7) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [19:58] * Quits: frankolivier (836b0046@64.62.228.82) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
# [20:02] * Quits: w3org (derekr@69.198.205.66) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [20:02] <tantek> alternate channel is #html-wg2
# [20:02] * Joins: silvia1 (Adium@72.254.83.191)
# [20:03] <Julian> starting with overview of extensibility points
# [20:03] <annevk> Topic: Pre-HTML5 approaches
# [20:03] <annevk> Joe Williams: [draws on whiteboard]
# [20:04] * silvia1 wonders which actual room the ARIA discussions are in?
# [20:04] <annevk> <object> was preceded by <embed>
# [20:04] <fantasai> Joe: Then Netscape came up with <embed>
# [20:04] <fantasai> Joe: Adobe working with them were able to get the flash player running with embed
# [20:05] <annevk> #aapi iirc
# [20:05] <fantasai> Joe: Plus being able ot respond to that nested context with some interfaces with the dom
# [20:05] <annevk> silvia1, ^^
# [20:05] <fantasai> Joe: Later <object> Was worked into the spec, MSFT came up with a good impl
# [20:05] * Joins: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@72.254.89.93)
# [20:05] <fantasai> Joe: Shortly thereafter, all browsers
# [20:05] <fantasai> Joe: began recognizing <object>
# [20:05] <fantasai> Joe: To me tha twas one of the great signs that the browser wars were over. All the browsers did <object>
# [20:05] * Joins: Stevef (chatzilla@72.254.122.123)
# [20:05] <fantasai> Joe: That was great for people that wanted to build these nested objects in
# [20:06] <fantasai> Joe: The thing about <object> is the type="mime"
# [20:06] * Quits: plh (plh@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [20:06] * Joins: wendy (chatzilla@72.254.114.205)
# [20:06] <fantasai> Joe: The browser looked at that, and then knew how to start up the object
# [20:06] <fantasai> Joe: The second important thing is <param>
# [20:06] <fantasai> Joe: The params give the opportunity.. for one thing, whatever the browser's context is, should have a negotiated live interface
# [20:07] <fantasai> Joe: E.g. if I have a param named src, and the context recognizes it, then I should be able to send the DOM name and the param name and have an active exchange.
# [20:07] <fantasai> Joe: These params should be I/O live
# [20:07] <fantasai> Joe: I can have a running object here
# [20:07] <fantasai> Joe: I can have live I/O, listeners listening to the dom
# [20:07] * Quits: silvia1 (Adium@72.254.83.191) (Ping timeout)
# [20:07] <fantasai> Joe: So I have a nested context thing
# [20:07] * Joins: weinig (weinig@72.254.105.115)
# [20:07] <fantasai> Joe: THe second most importan thing here is that <object> has fallback.
# [20:07] * Joins: krisk (48fe70a0@128.30.52.43)
# [20:08] <fantasai> Joe: If it doesn't recognize the mime type, it'll drop into the HTML inside. It could be another <object> tag with another mime type or just some HTML
# [20:08] <fantasai> Joe: A lot of people put <embed>.
# [20:08] <fantasai> Joe: Which really isn't necessary anymore
# [20:08] <fantasai> Joe: Its interface was a long string....
# [20:08] * Joins: shelleyp (shelleyp@69.155.29.71)
# [20:08] <fantasai> Joe: Anyway
# [20:08] * Joins: silvia (Adium@72.254.83.191)
# [20:08] <fantasai> Joe: What happens when a browser encounters an <object> tag is a nother thing that should be consistent.
# [20:08] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.11.203)
# [20:09] <fantasai> Joe: Nowadasy the browser wants to ask about security. It may be in an environment that doesn't look at <object>
# [20:09] <fantasai> Joe: But anyway, how we develop the context here and get the extensibility we need
# [20:09] <fantasai> Joe: We have a virtual engine in there that we can talk to
# [20:09] <fantasai> Tony: You mentioned that you have some existing concerns about existing browser behavior
# [20:09] <fantasai> Tony: Some of it's from the plugin side.
# [20:10] <fantasai> s/Tony/Joe/
# [20:10] <cardona507> thanks for scribing fantasai
# [20:10] <fantasai> Joe: From X3D for example, we have some initialization and runtime inputs that we'll accept. Not all the plugins willa ccept that
# [20:10] <fantasai> Joe: From the other side there's a data attribute, and several other attributes, that will either name a specific runtime
# [20:10] <fantasai> Joe: or ... but data's not a live param
# [20:10] <fantasai> Joe: If you want to change the source file or ? , you have to rewrite your whole object tag
# [20:11] <fantasai> Joe: because of the security that's built up around there,
# [20:11] <fantasai> Joe: data gets checked differently in IE
# [20:11] <fantasai> Joe: There are those kinds of inconsistencies
# [20:11] <tantek> not AFAIK - IE6 does support some object data=
# [20:11] <tantek> as did IE5/Mac
# [20:11] <fantasai> Joe: ... Should be just a friendly consistent cycle that users can depend on
# [20:11] <fantasai> Joe: If SVG is adopted and put in inline, how does the browser recognize that it's calling into another runtime? Or is it built into the browser and the author doesn't really care
# [20:12] <fantasai> ?
# [20:12] * Joins: tross (48fe0cc6@128.30.52.43)
# [20:12] <fantasai> Maciej: A lot of the behavior of the object tag you described, at least in browsers that use NPAPI, the API only has the ability to send params to the plugin when it is started up
# [20:12] <fantasai> Maciej: If you try to resend params, the browser will either ignore it or restart the plugin
# [20:13] <pimpbot> planet: Will Visual Studio 2010 support HTML 5? <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1682180/will-visual-studio-2010-support-html-5> ** A sexy new name for the Open Web Stack? <http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2009/a-sexy-new-name-for-the-open-web-stack/> ** What are the boundaries or scope definitions of HTML5 development? <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1659386/what-are-the-boundaries-or-scope-definitions-of-html5-development> ** HTM
# [20:13] <fantasai> Maciej: I believe all browsers that have NPAPI also have ?? that gives you a real API on teh object itself
# [20:13] <fantasai> maciej: So you don't have to do it through <param>
# [20:13] * MikeSmith to oedipus - can you come over on #html-wg2? and I can skype you in if you want
# [20:13] <fantasai> Maciej: Because of limitations of NPAPI you can't have what your'e asking for
# [20:13] <fantasai> Maciej: It's something that could be revised in future versions of NPAPI
# [20:14] <fantasai> Joe: In the IE API, that is a real live trusted object in the document.
# [20:14] <fantasai> Joe: The Netscape API doesn't quite treat it like that
# [20:14] <fantasai> Joe: It's more like the embed thing, and the IE is more like the <object>
# [20:14] <fantasai> Joe: ...
# [20:14] <fantasai> Joe: What happens if you encouter an X3D link
# [20:14] <fantasai> Joe: or another extensibility link?
# [20:15] <fantasai> Joe: Just something friendly and consistent that we can play with. Thank you.
# [20:15] * Quits: shelleyp (shelleyp@69.155.29.71) (Quit: shelleyp)
# [20:15] <fantasai> Anne: Did you read the spec for <object>? It says that changing the data attr will reinstantiate the object.
# [20:15] <fantasai> Joe: First of all, you want to get the thing running. You want to know when it's ready to accept the context argument. Then you know what you've got
# [20:16] * prolix MikeSmith, prolix is gregory rosmaita (skypeid: oedipusnj)
# [20:16] <fantasai> Joe: ...
# [20:16] <fantasai> ?: The <object> is crippled for ...
# [20:16] <fantasai> Hixie: Why can't we expose an API?
# [20:16] * Joins: JF (chatzilla@72.254.61.214)
# [20:17] <fantasai> Joe: Bring out a context, operate on it in the DOM..
# [20:17] <fantasai> Hixie: You can instatiate a plugin that doesn't have a data. To load a file there, you'd call the API for it
# [20:17] <fantasai> Hixie: The solution is to ...
# [20:17] <fantasai> Maciej: You could expose a load method for example, or you can even expose things that appear as custom JS properties
# [20:17] <fantasai> Maciej: So you could even have.. snce object convenient doesn't have src itself, you could assign src and the plugin then magages that
# [20:18] <fantasai> Joe: In IE I think the plugin passes the bag of params, and they negotiate that
# [20:18] <fantasai> Maciej: That's similar with NPAPI. You initially get a dictionar of the param values
# [20:18] <fantasai> Maciej: But in addition to that you can expose a direct scripting API
# [20:18] <fantasai> Maciej: I'm sure with Activex you can expose a direct scripting API as well
# [20:18] <fantasai> Tony: I don't think there's anything specific as far as HTML5 is concerned.
# [20:18] <fantasai> Joe: I'm continuing to look at the object element description
# [20:19] <fantasai> Joe: Last time I looked the operation with the data paramter was more complete
# [20:19] <fantasai> Joe: also things like what happens when you change the time
# [20:19] <fantasai> s/time/type/
# [20:19] <fantasai> Joe: ... It's just that, a uniform way to do it
# [20:19] <fantasai> Anne: The data attribute is about an external resource. The browser may need to fetch the resource, and in a lot of instances this determines what type of plugin to instantiate, which is why it's reinstantiated
# [20:20] <fantasai> Jeo: Whether or not the browser is the best one to decide whether the file is correct, is a question
# [20:20] <fantasai> Hixie: THe concern is makin sure that given a particular state of DOM, there needs to be consistency with whether you load again the state, ro mutate to that state
# [20:20] <tantek> FYI #html-wg2 is logged at: http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg2-irc
# [20:20] <fantasai> Hixie: Suppose you have a plugin that supported flash and QT
# [20:21] <fantasai> Hixie: ...
# [20:21] <fantasai> Hixie: But hten you go to a user that supports one but and claims to support th eother, but only when changingit
# [20:21] <fantasai> Hixie: ...
# [20:21] <fantasai> Joe: I don't want to nail what object does with x3d or any kind of extension
# [20:21] <fantasai> Joe: It remains a basic part of extensibility
# [20:21] * fantasai didn't get hixie's example very well :(
# [20:21] <fantasai> Tony: Let' smove on
# [20:22] <fantasai> Julian: Profile there are several aspects to that discussion.
# [20:22] <fantasai> Julian: First of all the descriptionin the HTML4 spec was broken wrt multiple profiles
# [20:22] <fantasai> Julian: I spent a few hours to write precise erratum for HTMl4
# [20:22] <fantasai> Julian: I'm not sure what to do with that
# [20:23] <fantasai> Julian: Manual has started work on a separate work that takes advantage of the clause in HTML5 that allows other specs to define things base don profile
# [20:23] <fantasai> ...
# [20:23] <fantasai> Julian: The current proposal is to define a linke relation called profile
# [20:23] <MikeSmith> s/Monterey/suite 1243/g
# [20:23] <fantasai> Julian: Has the advantage of not using the profile attribute, but the disadvantage of existing things needitng to be updated not to us eht profile attr
# [20:23] <fantasai> ...
# [20:24] <fantasai> Tantek: There have only been a few efforts that take advantage of the profile attr
# [20:24] <fantasai> Tantek: Dublin Core is one, but hasn't gotten much uptake
# [20:24] <fantasai> tantek: Microformats then started, and they're pretty popular
# [20:24] <fantasai> Tantek: rel value was introduced in HTml2, and now we have a separate microformats
# [20:24] <fantasai> Tantek: People can pick a specific rel vocab with the profile attribute
# [20:25] <fantasai> Tantek: Whatever HTMl5 does with profile, it's a good design .... ...
# [20:25] <fantasai> ...
# [20:25] <fantasai> Tantek: There are 2 different specs.
# [20:25] <fantasai> Julian: ??? Behaviorial spec
# [20:25] <fantasai> Julian: Droppe dversion
# [20:25] <fantasai> Julian: Now only describing profile attr and profile link relation
# [20:26] <fantasai> Julian: So manual's profile only specifies link profile inherit
# [20:26] <fantasai> Julian: There's opportunity to make it work on <a> element as well
# [20:26] <fantasai> Julian: And potentially also on <link>s outside <head>
# [20:26] <fantasai> Tantek: Microformats encourages <a> but allows <link>
# [20:26] <weinig> [Are there links available for the specs being mentioned?]
# [20:27] <fantasai> Tantek: Recommends use of rel="profile" to link to theprofile inline, to better match authoring CMS patterns wher epeople work on different sections of the page
# [20:27] <fantasai> Julian: I think we should continue to discuss that on the mailing list
# [20:27] <fantasai> Julian: Some people wonder about replacing profile with link rel=profile, why are we doing that if the functionality is exactly the same
# [20:27] <fantasai> Julian: If we do so it makes a lot of sense to look into options to make it more useful
# [20:28] <fantasai> Julian: Then there's the quesiton of should it be a separate spec, or should we put back into the main spec
# [20:28] <weinig> [Perhaps http://html5.digitalbazaar.com/specs/html5-epb.html ?]
# [20:28] <annevk> can people put some links into IRC?
# [20:28] <pimpbot> Title: Extended Processing Behavior in HTML5 (at html5.digitalbazaar.com)
# [20:28] <fantasai> Maciej: rel="profile" doesn't need to be in the spec because it uses the rel extension registry
# [20:28] <fantasai> JuliN: That reminds me of a topic we forgot about, where doe the ? for HTMl5 live
# [20:29] <fantasai> Julian: Is this particular attribute something that should live in the base spec
# [20:29] * Quits: prolix (4615bbaa@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
# [20:29] <fantasai> ... wiki page
# [20:29] <fantasai> Tantek: I'm proceeding with the assumption that the current mechnanism in the HTML5 spec is sufficient and using microformats from there
# [20:29] <fantasai> Tantek: There is one impl currently of rel=profile that processes it
# [20:29] <fantasai> Tantek: It processes it either strict mode or ? mode
# [20:29] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212)
# [20:30] <fantasai> Tantek: In strict mode it requries the profile uri string, in loose mode authros are rcommended to use it
# [20:30] <fantasai> Tantek: It's called Cognition
# [20:30] * Joins: DanC (connolly@72.254.120.7)
# [20:30] <Hixie> is toby inkster here?
# [20:30] <fantasai> Hixie: Would be interesting to hear what the authors of that think the use is
# [20:30] <fantasai> Joe: So this is an example of extending by giving a uri
# [20:30] * Quits: SCain (sally.cain@72.254.84.49) (Quit: SCain)
# [20:30] <fantasai> Tantek summarizes the HTML4 definition of profile and its relation to rel
# [20:30] <hsivonen> as I understand it, Cognition doesn't use @profile by default
# [20:30] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169)
# [20:31] <fantasai> Tantek: 2003 I wrote XMDP to create a profile format
# [20:31] <hsivonen> it isn't much of an endorsement-by-implementation to have it off-by-default
# [20:31] <fantasai> Tantek: To date there have been a few processors that use it, but mostly as a validation checking thing.
# [20:31] <fantasai> Tantek: Some use it for transformation to RDF/GRDDL
# [20:31] <fantasai> Julian: .. he said that if there's conensensus that this is the right way he has no problem doing so
# [20:32] <tantek> XMDP: http://gmpg.org/xmdp/description
# [20:32] <fantasai> Julian: Talk if authors are willing to migrate away from that. I can take that to DCH
# [20:32] <pimpbot> Title: XMDP: Introduction and Format Description (at gmpg.org)
# [20:32] <fantasai> Julian: Tantek is here, he knows the right thing for microformats
# [20:32] <tantek> rel-profile: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-profile
# [20:32] <fantasai> Julian: Don't know aht other specs use prifle
# [20:32] <pimpbot> Title: rel profile � Microformats Wiki (at microformats.org)
# [20:32] <fantasai> s/prifl/profil/
# [20:32] <fantasai> Maciej: Would our goal be to get these specs updated to use rel=profile?
# [20:32] <fantasai> Tantek: I think so. I'm working with microformats to do that
# [20:33] <fantasai> Joe: These vocabs aren't necessarily related to processing the DOM
# [20:33] <fantasai> Tantek: They don't contribute to the DOM, they are already part of existing attr
# [20:33] <fantasai> Tantek: e.g. class attribute is space-separated tokens. Microformats makes use of that
# [20:33] <fantasai> Tantek: There are some browsers, e.g. ff, that can parse that and create a dom interface out of microformats.
# [20:33] <fantasai> Tantek: but that hasn't been propsoed for standardization
# [20:34] <fantasai> Tantek: Side note, I know tha tbinding things as URIs is not totally agreed on and not often used
# [20:34] * Joins: kawata (kawa@216.9.106.99)
# [20:34] <fantasai> Tantek: There are nontrivial communities that do think it's important and do want that ability
# [20:34] <fantasai> Tantek: Just talking with TIm, it would be helpful with linked data
# [20:34] <fantasai> Tony: Tantek, would you be willing to talk more about how mf take advantage of HTML syntax today?
# [20:35] <fantasai> tantek: MF takes advantage of rel and class
# [20:35] * Joins: shiki (sokasaka@72.254.87.192)
# [20:35] <fantasai> Tantek: HTml spec has language to allow that
# [20:35] <fantasai> Tantke: XFN in 2003 took advantage of that
# [20:35] <fantasai> Tantek: In addition modern web designers have been using class attr for their own uses, e.g. class="header' class="footer"
# [20:36] <fantasai> Tantek: MF takes advantage of that existing pattern of creating semantics with classes,
# [20:36] <fantasai> Tantek: often takes existing vocabs as class names, e.g. with hCard
# [20:36] <fantasai> Julian...
# [20:36] * Parts: kawata (kawa@216.9.106.99)
# [20:36] <fantasai> Julian: Ressurects the Link header from HTTP spec
# [20:36] <fantasai> Julian: It allows exposing link relations in HTTP headers
# [20:36] <fantasai> Julian : useful if you want to declare a link relation isn't HTML
# [20:36] <fantasai> Julian: That spec suggests IANA registry fro shortnames
# [20:37] <fantasai> Julian: Web Linking spec
# [20:37] <fantasai> Julian: That spec passed IETF Last Call
# [20:37] <fantasai> Julian: Mark Nottingham is here today
# [20:37] <fantasai> Julian: might be able to talk to him
# [20:37] <annevk> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-http-link-header
# [20:37] <pimpbot> Title: draft-nottingham-http-link-header-06 - Web Linking (at tools.ietf.org)
# [20:37] <fantasai> Julian: I think also about the media parameter
# [20:37] <hsivonen> what would it mean to use rel=profile on the HTTP level for a non-HTML HTTP response?
# [20:38] <fantasai> Julian: There's a potential conflict between the rel value registry that HTML5 spec currently defines and the IANA registry the IETF is proposing
# [20:38] <fantasai> Julian: Don't know whether we canr esovle that conflict or whether it's significant
# [20:38] * Quits: wendy (chatzilla@72.254.114.205) (Client exited)
# [20:38] <fantasai> Julian: Anything used outside HTML might wind up in both registries
# [20:38] * Parts: kford (chatzilla@72.254.103.138)
# [20:38] <Julian> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-06
# [20:38] <pimpbot> Title: draft-nottingham-http-link-header-06 - Web Linking (at tools.ietf.org)
# [20:38] <fantasai> Tony: In terms of ppl being able to add extneions into HTML, custom attributes is something frameworks tend to make use of
# [20:38] <fantasai> Tony:IF you don't care about validation you could do this in browsers for years
# [20:39] <fantasai> Tony: It's a concern for frameworks whether their declarative markup validats in terms of whether customers are willing to use it
# [20:39] <fantasai> Tony: data- gives us that
# [20:39] <fantasai> Anne: When we added attrs for WF2, it broke some stuff
# [20:39] <fantasai> Hixie: As we extend HTML we run into conflicts with these names
# [20:39] <fantasai> Hixie: We've had to rename some things
# [20:40] <fantasai> Hixie: kind of sad, because w can't use these attrs on form elements for example
# [20:40] <fantasai> Hixie: THere's a distinction between attrs that are site-specific thing to hook into scripts
# [20:40] <fantasai> Hixie: e.g. in HTML5 spec I annotate elements for cross-references
# [20:40] <fantasai> Hixie: that's a closed environment where I'm extending the language in some way
# [20:40] <Julian> s/That spec passed IETF Last Call/That spec is past IETF Last Call/
# [20:40] <fantasai> Hixie: then there are more broad extensions like <canvas> and <marquee>
# [20:40] <Julian> (which means there are still open issues to resolve)
# [20:41] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.11)
# [20:41] <fantasai> Tony: Distinguish extnesions you make for your homepage or JS framework, and ... roundtripping of metadata that we've supported
# [20:41] <fantasai> Tony: For a page author embedding data in their own page data- gives them a safe path forward.
# [20:41] <fantasai> Tony: We don't have to worry about name clashes going forward
# [20:41] <fantasai> Tony: it's not clear whether that's available to frameworks or not
# [20:42] <fantasai> Tony: And what authoring best practices are
# [20:42] <fantasai> Talking about data-svg-?
# [20:42] <fantasai> and SVG library writen in JS
# [20:42] * Quits: mattmay (mattmay@72.254.12.175) (Quit: mattmay)
# [20:43] <fantasai> data-path is too general, likely to conflict
# [20:43] <fantasai> Hixie: If your bunch of content is self-contained, and self-consistent, it's fine
# [20:43] <fantasai> Hixie: It's only aproblem when the content expect something from outside itself, e.g. the browser, to interact with it that we get a problem
# [20:44] <fantasai> Maciej: Frameworks are part of the page, they're just also reusable
# [20:44] <fantasai> Maciej: They don't create a situation where you're using data- to publish information to be consumed by others
# [20:44] <fantasai> Tantek: Once people start using the same data- attributes with the same libraries across sites, you'll start getting de-facto standards
# [20:45] <fantasai> Hixie: ...
# [20:45] <fantasai> Hixie: We should use MF to encode data for wider usage
# [20:45] <fantasai> Tantek: Can we give some guidance in the spec, warning don't go further than this
# [20:45] <fantasai> Tony: Do we want to have a distinction between a single page author's stuff vs. script librarie's stuff?
# [20:45] <hsivonen> the author controls which libraries to include
# [20:46] <hsivonen> so in that sense, the author is in control of the libs, too
# [20:46] <fantasai> Hixie: There's a difference between what I use on my page and Dojo, but these are opposite ends of a spectrum. It is a spectrum.
# [20:46] <fantasai> Hixie: things will migrate across the spectrum
# [20:46] <fantasai> Hixie: and there's no clear transition pointt
# [20:46] <fantasai> Maciej: If you use data- attrs, you should use some kind of prefix
# [20:47] <fantasai> Maciej: While data- stops clases with future standardds or browsers, might be useful to give some guidance over avoiding clashes amongst themselves.
# [20:47] <fantasai> Maciej: don't want Dojo and JQuery fighting over attr names
# [20:47] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [20:47] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ
# [20:47] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
# [20:47] <fantasai> Anne: x- usually means experimental
# [20:47] <fantasai> Joe: Or extensible
# [20:48] <fantasai> Tony: Perhaps something else, but would that be worthwile. Do I want data-jquer-* for all my widgets?
# [20:48] <fantasai> Maciej: Well ? are already unbelievably long
# [20:48] * Quits: jun (jun@72.254.101.63) (Quit: jun)
# [20:48] <fantasai> Hixie: We don't have any control over this. We can just give advice
# [20:48] <fantasai> Hixie: If i write a page that uses one attribute and only I use it, I'm not going to write data-x-hixie-foo
# [20:48] <hsivonen> IIRC, dojo already puts "dojo" into its custom attributes that predate data-*
# [20:49] <fantasai> Hixie: We can and should give guidance for framworks etc
# [20:49] <gsnedders|work> It's not actually "dojo", but rather "d".
# [20:49] <fantasai> Tony: For the people sitting on that edge, we're hitting into very long attr names
# [20:49] * Quits: TabAtkins (chatzilla@72.254.112.118) (Ping timeout)
# [20:49] <fantasai> ...
# [20:49] * Quits: krisk (48fe70a0@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
# [20:50] <fantasai> Tony: The longer the names are the less chance of name collisions, but also they become more unweildy
# [20:50] <fantasai> s/ei/ie/
# [20:50] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@72.254.117.7) (Ping timeout)
# [20:50] <hsivonen> gsnedders|work, I see dojoType at http://dojocampus.org/explorer/#Dojox_Widgets_Color%20Picker_Customized
# [20:50] <fantasai> Tantek: I think we should go with Maciej's proposal to add prefixes if you're writing a library, and if there's pushback, deal with it then
# [20:50] <pimpbot> Title: Dojo Campus - Feature Explorer (at dojocampus.org)
# [20:50] <fantasai> Tony: One other use case was metadata for non-browsers UAs in terms fo roundtripping
# [20:50] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: Then I guess it uses a mixture
# [20:50] <fantasai> Tony: I think microdata was intended for that purpose
# [20:51] <hsivonen> (it's a very bad idea to use a capital 'T' in dojoType, though)
# [20:51] <fantasai> Tony: I was wondering what the consensus is on whether it's sufficient
# [20:51] <fantasai> Hixie: I'd be surprised if we had consensus that it's insfuficient, it's basically RDF model
# [20:51] <fantasai> Maciej: ...
# [20:51] <fantasai> Julian: Is it sufficient, I think it is. There's an open discussion on typing
# [20:51] <fantasai> Julian: More interesting question is whether we want microdata to be part of the HTML5 spec
# [20:52] <fantasai> Tony prefers to hold that one off for other session
# [20:52] <fantasai> Tantek: 9am tom
# [20:52] * Joins: wendy (chatzilla@72.254.114.205)
# [20:52] <fantasai> Tantek: One thing that would help with q of what should editors do, is more documentaiton on the use cases
# [20:52] <fantasai> Tantek: More documentation for editors on decentralized extensibility use cases
# [20:52] <gsnedders|work> hsivonen: Also uses djConfig
# [20:53] <fantasai> ACTION Tony: write that on the wiki (decentralized extensibility use cases for editors)
# [20:53] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [20:53] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Tony
# [20:53] * RRSAgent records action 5
# [20:53] <hsivonen> it's not clear that it's good for editors to dump a lot of product-specific stuff into files
# [20:53] <fantasai> Tony: Knowing that a lot of frameworks and MF use class names to perform typing, is there value in letting them have their own elements.
# [20:53] <hsivonen> Dreamweaver even has a feature for "cleaning up" Word HTML
# [20:53] <fantasai> Tantek: don't understand what you mean
# [20:53] <fantasai> Tony: Adding semantics so that it's more than just a div
# [20:53] <fantasai> Hixie: use case?
# [20:54] <fantasai> Tony: Do you feel there's value in being able to have a more concise syntax such as an element name
# [20:54] <fantasai> Tantek: I see anti-value
# [20:54] <fantasai> Hixie: big problems with new element is that UAs that don't understand it is that you fall back to the semantics of nothing.
# [20:54] <fantasai> Hixie; With class, if you have a subclass of paragraph, you at least fall back to paragraph
# [20:55] <fantasai> Tony: I'm talking about context of page author or script library, the opt-in mechanism of the script library or author adding semantics
# [20:55] <fantasai> Hixie: Adding meaning is fine, this isn't that
# [20:55] <hsivonen> see also http://intertwingly.net/blog/2006/11/15/Open-Source-Duke#c1163662129 in the context of Illustrator SVG output
# [20:55] <pimpbot> Title: Sam Ruby: Open Source Duke (at intertwingly.net)
# [20:55] * Quits: timeless_mbp (timeless@63.245.220.224) (Quit: timeless_mbp)
# [20:55] <fantasai> Tantek: space-separated class names allows MF to layer multiple semantics onto a single element: very concise, rich semantics
# [20:55] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
# [20:56] <fantasai> Tantek: If they were elements, it'd be weird, bloated, and you'd get weird tree problems
# [20:56] <fantasai> Maciej: The tree format choices are a problem. It's hard to add semantics without affecting the DOM, scripts, styling, etc.
# [20:56] <fantasai> Maciej: Also things that are extensions right now might become standards later
# [20:56] <fantasai> Maciej: It's easy to put two dfferent attrs on an element,
# [20:57] <fantasai> Maciej: but you can't combine elements
# [20:57] <fantasai> Tantek: Elements are bad because they make it more difficult ot overlay semantics
# [20:57] <fantasai> Tantek: Lose fallback semantics
# [20:57] <hsivonen> the downside is that classes can't affect the DOM interface of the element for "extensions" that later become native
# [20:57] <fantasai> Tantek: Make migration to standards more difficult
# [20:57] <fantasai> [3 reasons]
# [20:58] <fantasai> Hixie; If apple inventing invented d-apple-canvas, and mozilla did d-moz-canvas, then you could put them both on the same div
# [20:58] <fantasai> Maciej: and once standardized, you could put both on <canvas> element
# [20:59] <fantasai> Maciej: UA etensions tend not to migrate to standards, but other names do
# [20:59] <fantasai> Maciej: Script libraries it's harder to have the script library turn itself off when it's not needed (..?)
# [20:59] * DanC anybody mind if I do 'make minutes' so I can read a nicer formatting of the log?
# [21:00] <fantasai> Tony: We wouldn't want to standardize on the extended syntax anyway, bc it's reserved for extension
# [21:00] <fantasai> Tony: i see that for most common cases attrs would be more usefl
# [21:00] * Quits: glenng (48fe68fb@64.62.228.82) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
# [21:00] <fantasai> Tony: I dont think we need to talk much about prefixing anymore
# [21:00] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@72.254.90.149)
# [21:00] * DanC RRSAgent, make minutes
# [21:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html DanC
# [21:00] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
# [21:00] * Joins: satoshi (satoshi_fu@72.254.92.146)
# [21:00] <fantasai> Tony: One of my biggest ocncerns here isn't about name collisions, it's about consistency
# [21:00] <fantasai> Tony: GOing to HTML5 as it exists today, doesn't jive for me
# [21:01] <fantasai> tony: Namespaces are all over the place. used to describe so much of what HTML5 is and what it does
# [21:01] <fantasai> Tony: but it's all implicit, I can't access it
# [21:01] <fantasai> Hixie: I'd like to remove it all
# [21:01] <fantasai> Hixie: namespaces are hidden as much as possible, but unfortunately not complete possible.
# [21:01] * DanC darn... no TOC
# [21:01] <fantasai> Tony: rolled SVG and MathML specs
# [21:02] <fantasai> Hixie: We def don't want arbitrary vocabs to be included in HTML
# [21:02] <fantasai> Tony: Have to wait for HTMl6?
# [21:02] <cardona507> html6 next year?
# [21:02] * annevk DanC it's a long session on one subject
# [21:02] <fantasai> Hixie: It's happened twice in 19 years?
# [21:02] <fantasai> Hixie: HTML6 starts next year anyway
# [21:02] <fantasai> Tony: ... same tag name across different name spaces. If I reshuffle these in the DOM, I can't reserialize anything
# [21:02] * DanC wonders if the subject is "Pre-HTML5 approaches" as the TOC suggests
# [21:02] <fantasai> Hixie: You can reserialize anything that is conforming
# [21:03] <fantasai> Hixie: I agree it's a probelm having all this namespace stuff in HTML
# [21:03] * DanC pre-HTML5 approaches to what? oh... maybe this is about backward compatibility and such. ok.
# [21:03] <fantasai> Hixie: e.g. you want to XHR an XHTML document and just import those nodes... I think it'll be a nonstarter to as SVG to remvoe their namespaces
# [21:03] <fantasai> Hixie: It's unfortunate, but we're past the point where we can chagne it
# [21:03] * annevk DanC it's actually distributed extensibility
# [21:03] <fantasai> Julian: THe opposite, to actually allow prefixed names in HTML, would be worse
# [21:04] * DanC ah
# [21:04] * annevk it started with pre-html5 approaches
# [21:04] <fantasai> Tony: Why do you feel that way?
# [21:04] * annevk but then nobody changed the topic i guess
# [21:04] <fantasai> Hixie: There are different aspects of namespaces, different types of disasters. ANy particular ones I should talk about?
# [21:04] <fantasai> Hixie: A lot of them are prefix-specific.
# [21:04] <fantasai> Hixie: If we remove those and have names being tuples
# [21:05] <fantasai> Hixie: We have the same name that means different things. And people don't typically use the full long names, they use the short ones.
# [21:05] <fantasai> Hixie: ppl find namespaces very confusing
# [21:05] <fantasai> Maciej: People use prefixes without namespace decl
# [21:06] <fantasai> Maciej: and you end up with this mechanism where theoretically you have these URIs but in reality you're tied to these prefixes
# [21:06] <fantasai> Hixie: ? made interesting observation after writing book on XForms
# [21:06] <fantasai> Hixie: 80% of the emails he received were asking him on namespaces
# [21:06] <fantasai> Hixie: this is a book on xforms, not even about namespaces
# [21:06] <fantasai> Maciej: XForms isn't namespace heavy
# [21:07] <fantasai> Hixie: And yet of the whole of XForms, which is a massively complicaed language, 80% of questions were about namespaces
# [21:07] <fantasai> Julian: Many ppl have bad experiences with namespaces, maybe some have good experiences
# [21:07] <fantasai> Hixie: I doubt it. I guarantee there are namespace problems in the WebDAV space as well
# [21:07] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Quit: tlr)
# [21:08] <fantasai> Hixie: I've been involved with ppl invovled with the design of WebDAV that dont' get it
# [21:08] <fantasai> Maciej: It's not just that some people have problem understanding namespaces
# [21:08] <fantasai> Maciej: it's also that some people haveing trouble with it throws off everything else
# [21:08] <fantasai> Maciej: If they start using namespaces wrong then we start a dependency cycle where processors and authors use namespaces wrong
# [21:09] <fantasai> Maciej: If ppl just got confused and caused themselves problems, that'd be bad, but if they get confused and cause other people problems, that's worse
# [21:09] <fantasai> Tony: ..
# [21:09] <fantasai> Tony: If youre content just didn't display, you'd know there's a problem
# [21:09] <fantasai> Maciej: People don't publish content with problems if the browser doesn't behave as they expect
# [21:10] <fantasai> as often
# [21:10] <fantasai> Tantek: People tend to fall into 2 camps. 1. They see namespaces, it looks confusing, and run away
# [21:10] <hsivonen> (the XForms book author Hixie referred to is Micah Dubinko)
# [21:10] <fantasai> Tantek: 2. Or they think they understand it, use copy&paste, and have trouble with it
# [21:10] <fantasai> Tantek: Unless you live and breathe namespaces, you're like to get it wrong
# [21:10] * annevk is reminded of http://annevankesteren.nl/2005/11/draconian
# [21:11] <fantasai> Tantek: We see this problem even at w3c
# [21:11] * annevk (not really namespaces)
# [21:11] <fantasai> ...
# [21:11] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
# [21:12] * Dashiva is reminded of RDFa's solution to namespaces being "use namespace-unaware methods"
# [21:12] <fantasai> ?: Some of the criticism of namespaces while still allowing ...
# [21:12] <fantasai> s/?/Rob/
# [21:13] <fantasai> Rob likes Liam Q's unobtrusive namespaces
# [21:13] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
# [21:13] <fantasai> Tony: I don't know all the syntax he's looking for, but the intend and what he was trying to achieve.
# [21:13] <hsivonen> more than once on W3C-related occasions, I have had to explain Namespaces to people who work on specs that purport to build on Namespaces
# [21:13] <fantasai> Tony: There was the idea of having external file that auto-binds element names
# [21:14] * Quits: JonathanJ (hollobit@72.254.12.13) (Quit: JonathanJ)
# [21:14] <hsivonen> Namespaces are too hard even for people who work on specs at the W3C
# [21:14] <fantasai> Tony: and can have switches for descendent elements
# [21:14] <fantasai> Tony: Basically generalizing what HTML5 does
# [21:14] <fantasai> Tony: ...
# [21:14] <fantasai> Tony: So you can write different files, mix in something new either osmething broadly standardized or something local that only you use
# [21:15] <fantasai> Tony: You can have HTML processing, don't have explicit namespaces in your document
# [21:15] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
# [21:15] <fantasai> Rob: Let's say someone wants ot add a new feature, then if that gets adopted it becomes part of HTMl6
# [21:15] * Quits: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254) (Ping timeout)
# [21:15] <fantasai> Rob: Fixes some of the migration issues
# [21:16] <fantasai> Julian: Problem with that is that then the semantics of your page depend on this external file
# [21:16] <fantasai> JuliaN: you have this external resource, you have something similar to the DTD fetching problem
# [21:16] * Dashiva - isn't that what profile does already?
# [21:16] * jgraham this seems more fundamental
# [21:16] <fantasai> Julian: Also we're saying already that the indirection of namespaces is too complicated, and we're making it even more indirect
# [21:16] * jgraham was wondering about the same thing
# [21:17] <fantasai> Tony: I don't know that it's indirection. What it allows is for authors to to think about just the element.s
# [21:17] <fantasai> Tony: Authors can reap the advantages of mashupws without being exposed to their complexities
# [21:17] <fantasai> ...
# [21:18] <fantasai> Tony: createElementNS and createElement is already a problem
# [21:18] * Dashiva Under the hood it adds more indirection, but above the hood is basically removes the original indirection
# [21:18] <fantasai> Maciej: No reason we can't extend createElement to handle this the same way as the parser
# [21:18] * Quits: BryanSullivan (Bryan@135.214.40.68) (Client exited)
# [21:18] <fantasai> Maciej: Classic XML namespaces bind a prefix to a namespace URI. THat's a level of indirection, and that also has certain nesting rules.
# [21:18] <fantasai> Maciej: This would bind namespaces to an actual tag name.
# [21:19] <fantasai> Maciej: There's definitely potential for confusion there, where if you communicate with someone that's not using the same predefined namespace file
# [21:19] <fantasai> Maciej: But you don't have the problem of having an arbitrary token used just for indirection
# [21:19] <fantasai> Julian: But it's na external file. can we put this in the head somehow?
# [21:20] <fantasai> Maciej: would be too long
# [21:20] * Joins: TL (48fe78b2@128.30.52.43)
# [21:20] * Dashiva Part of the idea seemed to be that most users wouldn't handle the files at all, they'd just use browser built-ins
# [21:20] <fantasai> Tony: ... [not really b/c of nestign bhavior]
# [21:20] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58)
# [21:20] <fantasai> Maciej: It's different in the sense that authors could themselves use the same behavior for their own vocabularies
# [21:20] <fantasai> Maciej: and in the future could be ...
# [21:21] * annevk ... notices a huge amount of macs
# [21:21] <fantasai> maciej: If the logical model is that there's a predefined model, doesn't mean the UA has to fetch it each time.
# [21:21] <fantasai> Maciej: If you wanted to do it for custom elements, then you'd have tlink it and read it
# [21:21] <fantasai> Tantek: That sound isomorphic to DTDs. I don't see the difference.
# [21:22] <fantasai> Anne: Having a file you have to load to parse it is not a good idea.
# [21:22] <fantasai> Julian: Well, you could parse it, but not do anything beyond that
# [21:22] <fantasai> Julian: I think we should consider that we may be able to come up with a clever way to use namespaces, but it will be a different way from XML
# [21:23] <fantasai> Julian: I'm skeptical that we can make it friend or that it will be less confusing. I think by creating a second way to do the same thing we're adding to the confusion
# [21:23] <fantasai> s/friend/friendly/
# [21:23] <fantasai> ...
# [21:24] <Hixie> http://www.greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/webdav-redirector-list.html#issue-namespace-handling
# [21:24] <fantasai> Lachy: I don't think we should be develping a solution for adding namespaces to HTML if XHTML will work fine in the future (once we have support in IE)
# [21:24] <pimpbot> Title: WebDAV Mini-Redirector (MRXDAV.SYS) Versions and Issues List (at www.greenbytes.de)
# [21:24] <fantasai> Carlos: It seemed like Tim was pretty passionate about this. Anyone have an idea what exactly?
# [21:24] <fantasai> Maciej: He loves namespaces
# [21:24] * Quits: alexmog (alexmog@72.254.90.149) (Ping timeout)
# [21:24] <fantasai> Joe: Aren't we saying that..
# [21:24] <fantasai> Joe: I see this as two sides, the text/html side
# [21:25] <fantasai> Joe: and then there's the XHTML side
# [21:25] <Julian> notes that this is a problem of a client that properly handles prefixes, just not default namespaces
# [21:25] <fantasai> Joe: And on the HTML side the browser is covering my but
# [21:25] <fantasai> t
# [21:25] * annevk I think I have to leave in a couple of minutes
# [21:25] * annevk ... security BOF
# [21:25] <fantasai> Joe: It's not a validating parser, it's got fixups, it's got makeups, ituses tables, doesn't care about dtd. Just cares about what it has hard-coded
# [21:25] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@72.254.90.149)
# [21:26] <fantasai> Joe: In XHTML the browser is stupid, it doesn't know anything at all. I tell it what it's got to do. It learns in an entirely different way than in text/html
# [21:26] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169)
# [21:27] <fantasai> Joe: I'm saying that to have text/html be extensible, I've got to change
# [21:27] <fantasai> Joe: In XHTML I just give it a new namespace, and a new schema
# [21:27] <fantasai> Joe: It's easy to extend XHTML, hard to extend HTML
# [21:27] <fantasai> Joe: On one side I deal with the browser's built-ins, on the other I have extensibility
# [21:27] * Joins: tH (Rob@82.4.89.172)
# [21:28] <fantasai> Tantek: it sounds like there are multiple proposals for adding some form of namespaces to HTML
# [21:28] * fantasai likes Joe's point
# [21:29] <fantasai> Anne: The basic idea of XML5 is to add some of the error-recovery ideas of HTML to XML. It would still have extensibility and namespaces and stuff. Authors could then use that
# [21:30] <fantasai> Maciej: The idea is to have a second way of handling application/xml that handled conforming documents the same, but for nonconforming documents handled errors in a well-defined manner that didn't catch fire
# [21:30] <hsivonen> about the Microsoft proposal: would MS implement it across all modes of IE (including the IE 5.5 mode) if it were adopted into a W3C spec?
# [21:30] * Quits: weinig (weinig@72.254.105.115) (Quit: weinig)
# [21:30] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212) (Quit: dsinger)
# [21:30] * Quits: DanC (connolly@72.254.120.7) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [21:30] <fantasai> Maciej: THe interesting thing about htis proposal is it would provide the people that want xml namespaces with athe ability to have lenient error-handling
# [21:30] <hsivonen> that is, does Microsoft believe it's compatible enough with existing content to be implemented across all modes?
# [21:31] <fantasai> Maciej: The disadvantage si that the people that want the draconian error handling can't get that anymore
# [21:31] * tlr notes that the security BOF in Monterey is about to start
# [21:31] <hsivonen> I think doing XML5 would be more sensible than bending text/html into the requirements of the XML community
# [21:32] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [21:32] <fantasai> My personal opinion is that XML parsers in browsers shouldn't bail on the whole document on errors, they should just close all tags and then abort
# [21:32] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.87.163) (Ping timeout)
# [21:32] <fantasai> obvious error, but you get at least something usable
# [21:32] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@72.254.11.214) (Quit: cardona507)
# [21:32] <fantasai> if you're just a reader
# [21:32] * Quits: mjs (mjs@72.254.59.20) (Quit: mjs)
# [21:32] * Quits: shiki (sokasaka@72.254.87.192) (Quit: shiki)
# [21:32] <fantasai> Meeting closed
# [21:33] <MikeSmith> action: Steve to bring question to group: Do we want changing of element handler and role semantics via attributes to be deprecated?
# [21:33] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [21:33] * RRSAgent records action 6
# [21:33] <trackbot> Created ACTION-158 - Bring question to group: Do we want changing of element handler and role semantics via attributes to be deprecated? [on Steve Faulkner - due 2009-11-12].
# [21:33] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.11) (Ping timeout)
# [21:33] * Quits: Stevef (chatzilla@72.254.122.123) (Ping timeout)
# [21:33] <fantasai> MikeSmith: I can't minute TAG
# [21:34] <fantasai> MikeSmith: It's in the afternoon, I'm not available this afternoon
# [21:34] * Quits: silvia (Adium@72.254.83.191) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [21:34] * Quits: PIon (chatzilla@72.254.108.83) (Ping timeout)
# [21:34] <MikeSmith> fantasai, OK
# [21:34] * hsivonen thanks fantasai for minuting
# [21:34] * Quits: tross (48fe0cc6@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
# [21:34] * Joins: jun (jun@72.254.101.63)
# [21:34] * fantasai welcome
# [21:35] <tantek> lunch
# [21:35] * Quits: wendy (chatzilla@72.254.114.205) (Ping timeout)
# [21:35] * Quits: satoshi (satoshi_fu@72.254.92.146) (Ping timeout)
# [21:36] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.11.203) (Quit: eric_carlson)
# [21:36] * Quits: jun (jun@72.254.101.63) (Quit: jun)
# [21:36] * Quits: JF (chatzilla@72.254.61.214) (Ping timeout)
# [21:37] * Quits: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@72.254.89.93) (Ping timeout)
# [21:37] * Quits: TL (48fe78b2@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
# [21:40] * Quits: myakura (myakura@72.254.81.150) (Ping timeout)
# [21:41] * Joins: mjs (mjs@72.254.59.20)
# [21:41] * Joins: cardona507 (carloscard@72.254.11.214)
# [21:43] <pimpbot> planet: Distributed Extensibility <http://dbaron.org/log/20091105-distributed-extensibility>
# [21:43] * Quits: mth (opera@72.254.58.170) (Quit: mth)
# [21:44] <Laura> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [21:44] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html Laura
# [21:44] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
# [21:45] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@72.254.117.7)
# [21:48] * Quits: jallan (jallan@72.254.102.242) (Ping timeout)
# [21:49] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@72.254.11.214) (Quit: cardona507)
# [21:59] * Joins: shelleyp (shelleyp@69.155.29.71)
# [21:59] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212)
# [22:00] * Quits: shelleyp (shelleyp@69.155.29.71) (Quit: shelleyp)
# [22:03] * Quits: VagnerW3CBrasil (chatzilla@72.254.101.96) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458])
# [22:03] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@83.252.226.0)
# [22:05] * Quits: alexmog (alexmog@72.254.90.149) (Ping timeout)
# [22:06] * Joins: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254)
# [22:06] * Joins: TabAtkins (chatzilla@72.254.112.118)
# [22:10] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212) (Client exited)
# [22:11] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217) (Quit: Laura)
# [22:13] * Joins: prolix (4615bbaa@128.30.52.43)
# [22:16] * Quits: TabAtkins (chatzilla@72.254.112.118) (Ping timeout)
# [22:20] * Joins: jun (jun@72.254.101.63)
# [22:21] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212)
# [22:24] * Quits: jun (jun@72.254.101.63) (Quit: jun)
# [22:24] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
# [22:24] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.11.203)
# [22:25] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
# [22:26] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212) (Quit: dsinger)
# [22:27] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212)
# [22:27] * Joins: timeless_mbp (timeless@72.254.83.255)
# [22:29] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
# [22:30] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.11)
# [22:32] * Joins: silvia (Adium@72.254.83.191)
# [22:37] * Joins: myakura (myakura@72.254.81.150)
# [22:38] * timeless_mbp is now known as timeless
# [22:38] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212) (Quit: dsinger)
# [22:41] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217) (Quit: Laura)
# [22:42] * Joins: kohei (kohei@72.254.92.154)
# [22:42] * Parts: kohei (kohei@72.254.92.154)
# [22:42] * Joins: kohei (kohei@72.254.92.154)
# [22:44] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212)
# [22:44] * Joins: satoshi (satoshi_fu@72.254.92.146)
# [22:46] * Joins: shiki (sokasaka@72.254.87.192)
# [22:46] * Quits: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254) (Ping timeout)
# [22:46] * Quits: shiki (sokasaka@72.254.87.192) (Quit: shiki)
# [22:47] * Joins: DanC (connolly@72.254.120.7)
# [22:49] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8207] Change definition of URL to normative reference to IRIBIS <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0052.html> ** [Bug 8207] New: Change definition of URL to normative reference to IRIBIS <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0051.html>
# [22:49] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88)
# [22:50] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
# [22:50] * Joins: jallan (jallan@72.254.102.242)
# [22:50] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.11.203) (Connection reset by peer)
# [22:51] * Joins: shiki (sokasaka@72.254.87.192)
# [22:51] * Joins: cardona507 (carloscard@72.254.11.214)
# [22:53] * Joins: jun (jun@72.254.101.63)
# [22:53] * Quits: silvia (Adium@72.254.83.191) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [22:53] * Joins: Kai (chatzilla@72.254.82.195)
# [22:54] * Joins: silvia (Adium@72.254.83.191)
# [22:55] * Quits: silvia (Adium@72.254.83.191) (Client exited)
# [22:55] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88) (Connection reset by peer)
# [22:55] * Joins: JF (chatzilla@72.254.61.214)
# [22:55] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88)
# [22:56] * Joins: soonho (soonho@72.254.87.179)
# [22:57] * Joins: Stevef (chatzilla@72.254.122.123)
# [22:57] * Joins: rubys (rubys@72.254.102.5)
# [22:57] <rubys> hsivonen: ping?
# [22:58] <annevk> we're still somewhat stuck in the security room
# [22:58] <annevk> hopefully this is rounded up within 5 minutes
# [22:58] * Joins: mth (opera@72.254.58.170)
# [22:58] * Joins: jeanne (jeanne@128.30.52.30)
# [22:58] <annevk> (not hsivonen btw, he's at home :) )
# [22:58] * Joins: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254)
# [22:59] <gsnedders> annevk: security room?
# [22:59] * Joins: shiki_ (sokasaka@216.239.44.65)
# [22:59] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88) (Connection reset by peer)
# [22:59] * Joins: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@72.254.89.93)
# [22:59] <MikeSmith> I suspect hsivonen may be sleeping by now
# [23:00] <annevk> yeah, because of the fire earlier
# [23:00] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212) (Quit: dsinger)
# [23:00] <MikeSmith> .t hsivonen
# [23:00] <phenny> Fri, 06 Nov 2009 00:00:07 EET
# [23:00] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88)
# [23:00] <gsnedders> annevk: fire? what?
# [23:00] <Philip> gsnedders: It's the room with all the CCTV displays so they can snoop on the other attendees
# [23:01] * Quits: shiki (sokasaka@72.254.87.192) (Ping timeout)
# [23:01] * shiki_ is now known as shiki
# [23:02] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@72.254.117.7) (Ping timeout)
# [23:02] * Joins: silvia (Adium@72.254.83.191)
# [23:02] * Quits: mjs (mjs@72.254.59.20) (Quit: mjs)
# [23:03] <rubys> For hsivonen to ponder at some later point: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/11/05/Web3D#c1257458545
# [23:03] <pimpbot> Title: Sam Ruby: Web3D (at intertwingly.net)
# [23:03] * Joins: paulc (48fe77fa@128.30.52.43)
# [23:03] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30)
# [23:04] * Joins: wendy (chatzilla@72.254.114.205)
# [23:04] * Joins: noahm (noah_mende@72.254.95.252)
# [23:04] <paulc> TAG and HTML WG joint session: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Nov/0161.html
# [23:04] <pimpbot> Title: TAG and HTML WG joint meeting discussion topics from Paul Cotton on 2009-11-05 (public-html@w3.org from November 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
# [23:05] * Quits: Stevef (chatzilla@72.254.122.123) (Ping timeout)
# [23:07] * Joins: Kangchan (Kangchan@72.254.12.64)
# [23:09] * Joins: mjs (mjs@72.254.59.20)
# [23:10] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.87.163)
# [23:12] * wendy is now known as scribe
# [23:13] * Joins: timbl (timbl@72.254.87.20)
# [23:13] * Joins: Kai_ (chatzilla@72.254.82.195)
# [23:13] * Joins: weinig (weinig@72.254.105.115)
# [23:13] * Joins: ht (ht@128.30.52.169)
# [23:13] * Quits: Kai (chatzilla@72.254.82.195) (Ping timeout)
# [23:13] <annevk> Topic: joint meeting with TAG
# [23:13] * Joins: PIon (chatzilla@72.254.108.83)
# [23:13] * Kai_ is now known as Kai
# [23:14] <annevk> Paul Cotton is giving an intro
# [23:14] <annevk> note to TAG members on IRC: scribing is adhoc
# [23:14] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212)
# [23:14] <annevk> anarchy-like
# [23:14] * Joins: tross (48fe0cc6@128.30.52.43)
# [23:14] <DanC> ok... i.e. if you want it recorded, record it
# [23:15] <annevk> yup
# [23:15] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@72.254.117.7)
# [23:15] <paulc> noah giving an intro to the TAG
# [23:15] * Joins: azunix (azunix@88.207.233.32)
# [23:16] <paulc> TAG charter: http://www.w3.org/2001/07/19-tag
# [23:16] <pimpbot> Title: Technical Architecture Group (TAG) Charter (at www.w3.org)
# [23:16] * Joins: Travis (48fe78b2@128.30.52.43)
# [23:17] <paulc> Starting discussion with http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Nov/0161.html
# [23:17] <pimpbot> Title: TAG and HTML WG joint meeting discussion topics from Paul Cotton on 2009-11-05 (public-html@w3.org from November 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
# [23:20] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212) (Quit: dsinger)
# [23:20] * Joins: adrianba (adrianba@72.254.91.71)
# [23:21] <paulc> Possible topics:
# [23:21] <paulc> a) text/html media type
# [23:21] <DanC> maybe we could skip the (rest of) the read-thru and start discussion?
# [23:22] <paulc> b) URI/IRI/WebAddr
# [23:22] <DanC> my mental stack is about full
# [23:23] <tantek> Noah is summarizing the Discussion Topics
# [23:23] <paulc> c) Embedding data in HTML Documents
# [23:23] <paulc> d) Language reference/authoring specification
# [23:23] <DanC> scribe: DanC
# [23:24] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
# [23:24] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [23:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [23:24] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
# [23:24] * scribe is now known as wendy
# [23:24] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.11.203)
# [23:25] <DanC> Topic: text/html media type
# [23:25] <annevk> (Larry was in the security BOF; thought he would come here.)
# [23:25] <MikeSmith> s/MikeSmith:/MikeSmith,
# [23:25] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@83.252.226.0) (Quit: gsnedders)
# [23:26] <DanC> PaulC: do you have proposed text re polyglot documents?
# [23:26] <timbl> q?
# [23:26] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:26] <timbl> q+
# [23:26] * Zakim sees timbl on the speaker queue
# [23:26] <paulc> ack tim
# [23:26] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:26] <MikeSmith> q+ to ask about current wording of definition of "XHTML" in the spec
# [23:26] <annevk> ack timbl
# [23:26] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [23:26] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [23:26] <ht> q+ to check 'tiny sliver'
# [23:26] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, ht on the speaker queue
# [23:26] <DanC> Hixie: not yet; the bug came in yesterday or so...
# [23:27] <mjs> q+
# [23:27] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, ht, mjs on the speaker queue
# [23:27] * Quits: Kangchan (Kangchan@72.254.12.64) (Connection reset by peer)
# [23:27] <ht> q- ht
# [23:27] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, mjs on the speaker queue
# [23:27] <DanC> ... the intent was to [sorry, missed]; there's a small intersection between HTML and XML, called polyglot documents...
# [23:27] <Julian> q+
# [23:27] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, mjs, Julian on the speaker queue
# [23:27] <DanC> ... the text [did something wrong in that case]; I expect to fix that.
# [23:27] <Julian> q-
# [23:27] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, mjs on the speaker queue
# [23:28] * Joins: Kangchan (Kangchan@72.254.12.64)
# [23:28] <DanC> TimBL: perhaps the intersection is small by count of strings, but it's a valuable language with a community of practice around it
# [23:28] <annevk> q+
# [23:28] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, mjs, annevk on the speaker queue
# [23:28] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212)
# [23:28] <paulc> ack Mike
# [23:28] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to ask about current wording of definition of "XHTML" in the spec
# [23:28] <DanC> Hixie: so I hear; could you elaborate on why you value it?
# [23:28] * Zakim sees mjs, annevk on the speaker queue
# [23:29] <noahm> q+ to ask whether we don't already have a good resolution
# [23:29] * Zakim sees mjs, annevk, noahm on the speaker queue
# [23:29] <DanC> TimBL: if you use XML tools, [it's nice]
# [23:29] <Hixie> q+ to mention you need a special outputter anyway to do this
# [23:29] * Zakim sees mjs, annevk, noahm, Hixie on the speaker queue
# [23:29] <annevk> q- to let Hixie say it so I don't have to
# [23:29] * Zakim sees mjs, noahm, Hixie on the speaker queue
# [23:29] <ht> q+ to mention cocoon, XProc, docman tooling in general
# [23:29] * Zakim sees mjs, noahm, Hixie, ht on the speaker queue
# [23:29] <DanC> MikeSmith: meanwhile, HTML5 parsers are being slotted in where XML processors have been, e.g. on the front of XSLT engines.
# [23:29] <DanC> [some example; help?]
# [23:29] * Quits: silvia (Adium@72.254.83.191) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [23:30] <ht> s/[some example; help?]/HTMLXSLT, from Henri Sivonen/
# [23:30] <DanC> MikeSmith: another point: the definition of XHTML... at some point, the spec defined it as "a document served with an XML media type"... I lost track of where it is now...
# [23:31] <DanC> ... people objected to it; people don't want to be told that the document they call XHTML can't be served as text/html. I have some empathy [sympathy?] for this position.
# [23:31] <DanC> Hixie: yes, if you constrain yourself to the intersection...
# [23:31] <Kai> q+ to ask, naively, what this would mean for our XHTML pages, served as text/html, our hundreds of partner companies and basically the whole structure of an XHTML based world of portals
# [23:31] * Zakim sees mjs, noahm, Hixie, ht, Kai on the speaker queue
# [23:32] <paulc> q?
# [23:32] * Zakim sees mjs, noahm, Hixie, ht, Kai on the speaker queue
# [23:32] <paulc> Ack mjs
# [23:32] * Zakim sees noahm, Hixie, ht, Kai on the speaker queue
# [23:32] * DanC is a couple speakers behind and not winning in trying to catch up
# [23:32] <DanC> q+
# [23:32] * Zakim sees noahm, Hixie, ht, Kai, DanC on the speaker queue
# [23:32] * Joins: drunknbass_work (aaron@71.107.253.243)
# [23:32] <ht> +1 to mjs
# [23:32] <paulc> ack noahm
# [23:32] <Zakim> noahm, you wanted to ask whether we don't already have a good resolution
# [23:32] * Zakim sees Hixie, ht, Kai, DanC on the speaker queue
# [23:32] <DanC> Maciej: I observe the difference in opinion between TimBL and Hixie about whether polyglot documents are valuable/good; I suggest the spec remain neutral on this.
# [23:33] <DanC> Hixie: yes, text that editorialized on this has been removed... or will/should be
# [23:33] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212) (Quit: dsinger)
# [23:33] * Joins: Bert (bbos@mcclure.w3.org)
# [23:33] <tantek> Noah: perhaps a problem is the use of the phrase "XML document" without hyperlinking it.
# [23:34] <DanC> Noah: a general suggestion that bears on this case... the term "XML document" is used in a what that's not clear; a hyperlink would likely clarify...
# [23:34] <MikeSmith> q+ to note that the case of drop-in HTML5 parsers in XML toolchains doesn't work for documents that need to be signed (because we have an XML document signing mechanism but not an HTML document signing mechanism)
# [23:34] * Zakim sees Hixie, ht, Kai, DanC, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [23:34] <DanC> ... perhaps a parallel effort could audit the spec for hyperlinks to add
# [23:34] <timbl> q?
# [23:34] * Zakim sees Hixie, ht, Kai, DanC, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [23:34] <DanC> q+ TVR
# [23:34] * Zakim sees Hixie, ht, Kai, DanC, MikeSmith, TVR on the speaker queue
# [23:34] <paulc> ack hixie
# [23:34] <Zakim> Hixie, you wanted to mention you need a special outputter anyway to do this
# [23:34] * Zakim sees ht, Kai, DanC, MikeSmith, TVR on the speaker queue
# [23:34] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Quit: tlr)
# [23:35] <DanC> Hixie: in the case where you're outputting an XML document that you want to ship as text/html, you do need a special serialzer; e.g. to avoid <div />
# [23:35] <paulc> ack ht
# [23:35] <Zakim> ht, you wanted to mention cocoon, XProc, docman tooling in general
# [23:35] * Zakim sees Kai, DanC, MikeSmith, TVR on the speaker queue
# [23:35] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212)
# [23:35] <annevk> other examples are <br></br> turning into <br/><br/> at the DOM level
# [23:35] <DanC> HT: there's a community of practice, esp in document management, that switched to all XML ~4 years ago...
# [23:35] <Philip> MikeSmith, can't you sign HTML documents exactly like you'd sign any arbitrary stream of bytes?
# [23:35] <annevk> and <p><table></table></p> becoming <p/><table/><p/> at the DOM level, etc.
# [23:35] <DanC> ... e.g. spec-prod [?]
# [23:36] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@83.252.226.0)
# [23:36] * Joins: webspinner (ws@70.177.162.26)
# [23:36] <DanC> HT: we don't use a special serializer; we've just learned to be careful
# [23:36] <paulc> ack kai
# [23:36] <Zakim> Kai, you wanted to ask, naively, what this would mean for our XHTML pages, served as text/html, our hundreds of partner companies and basically the whole structure of an XHTML
# [23:36] <DanC> Hixie: wouldn't it be better for the tools to do that?
# [23:36] <Zakim> ... based world of portals
# [23:36] * Zakim sees DanC, MikeSmith, TVR on the speaker queue
# [23:36] <timbl> q+ to mention tidy and to protest against a doubling the toolsets
# [23:36] * Zakim sees DanC, MikeSmith, TVR, timbl on the speaker queue
# [23:36] <DanC> HT: I don't think so
# [23:36] <DanC> [ETOOFAST]
# [23:36] * Joins: silvia (Adium@72.254.83.191)
# [23:37] <ht> s/think so/think so, in particular because we want to continue to process the output with generic XML tools/
# [23:37] <tantek> Kai: all we have is XHTML that we serve as text/html
# [23:37] * MikeSmith volunteer to scribe DanC's comments for him when his time on the queue comes up
# [23:37] <paulc> ack danc
# [23:37] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, TVR, timbl on the speaker queue
# [23:37] <DanC> Kai: all we [who?] have is text/html... could someone explain the issue at a high level?
# [23:37] <DanC> ack me
# [23:37] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, TVR, timbl on the speaker queue
# [23:37] <paulc> q+
# [23:37] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, TVR, timbl, paulc on the speaker queue
# [23:37] <rubys> q+
# [23:37] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, TVR, timbl, paulc, rubys on the speaker queue
# [23:38] <ht> s/[who?]/at Deutsche Telekom/
# [23:38] <annevk> there is http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML_vs._XHTML
# [23:38] <pimpbot> Title: HTML vs. XHTML - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org)
# [23:38] <Lachy> q+
# [23:38] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, TVR, timbl, paulc, rubys, Lachy on the speaker queue
# [23:38] <Lachy> q+ to answer DanC's question
# [23:38] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, TVR, timbl, paulc, rubys, Lachy on the speaker queue
# [23:38] <annevk> mostly written by people outside the polyglot community, but it should be accurate
# [23:39] <annevk> DanC, ^^
# [23:39] <MikeSmith> DanC: any volunteers, among in the community of people who want to write polyglot documents, who volunteer to write a document describing how to do this correctly?
# [23:39] <MikeSmith> karl, URL for your draft about polyglot documents?
# [23:39] <tantek> Maciej: definition of the sliver matters
# [23:39] <paulc> q?
# [23:39] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, TVR, timbl, paulc, rubys, Lachy on the speaker queue
# [23:39] * Kai thanks annevk
# [23:39] <paulc> q-
# [23:39] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, TVR, timbl, rubys, Lachy on the speaker queue
# [23:39] <DanC> Maciej: it's not enough to just match both syntaxes; you have to avoid things that cause unexpected results...
# [23:40] <tantek> some just say conforming to both syntaxes
# [23:40] <tantek> others also want same tree (e.g no implied tags)
# [23:40] <Lachy> DanC, my HTML5 Reference also covers writing polyglot documents. There's a whole section devoted to it.
# [23:40] <DanC> ... so one challenge to [writing this up] is explaining the motivation for it [?]
# [23:40] <DanC> oh. I guess I forgot that, Lachy
# [23:40] <Lachy> q-
# [23:40] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, TVR, timbl, rubys on the speaker queue
# [23:40] <timbl> q+ timbl_ to talk about defining (a) a polyglot set of constrains and (b) the properties they have
# [23:40] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, TVR, timbl, rubys, timbl_ on the speaker queue
# [23:40] <DanC> Zakim, close the queue
# [23:40] <Zakim> ok, DanC, the speaker queue is closed
# [23:41] <paulc> ack Mike
# [23:41] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to note that the case of drop-in HTML5 parsers in XML toolchains doesn't work for documents that need to be signed (because we have an XML document signing
# [23:41] <Zakim> ... mechanism but not an HTML document signing mechanism)
# [23:41] * Zakim sees TVR, timbl, rubys, timbl_ on the speaker queue
# [23:41] <paulc> ack tvr
# [23:41] * Zakim sees timbl, rubys, timbl_ on the speaker queue
# [23:41] <annevk> (Pure polyglot fails with the first tag by the way. <html xmlns=...> ends up differently in the DOM.)
# [23:41] <DanC> MikeSmith: if you're using signed documents, you're not going to be able to [missed; help, Mike?]
# [23:41] <ht> Without going on the queue, can someone confirm that e.g. <div>Hello world is not legitimately servable as text/html ?
# [23:41] <MikeSmith> http://www.la-grange.net/2009/07/05/html5-xhtml5/ <- HTML 5 and XHTML 5 - one vocabulary, two serializations
# [23:41] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 and XHTML 5 - one vocabulary, two serializations (at www.la-grange.net)
# [23:42] <paulc> ack timbl
# [23:42] <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to mention tidy and to protest against a doubling the toolsets
# [23:42] <karl> MikeSmith, you have been quicker than me
# [23:42] * Zakim sees rubys, timbl_ on the speaker queue
# [23:42] <annevk> ht, yes, <!doctype html><title></title><div>Hellow world</div> would be needed
# [23:42] <DanC> TVR: years ago when work on XHTML started, there was an expectation of smooth evolution toward cleaner markup; we can engineer HTML 5 to make it grow or shrink
# [23:42] <paulc> q?
# [23:42] * Zakim sees rubys, timbl_ on the speaker queue
# [23:42] <noahm> q?
# [23:42] * Zakim sees rubys, timbl_ on the speaker queue
# [23:42] * Joins: masinter (user@72.254.91.11)
# [23:42] <annevk> ht, you need a DOCTYPE and the title element is also still required
# [23:42] <ht> Thanks anne, that's fine
# [23:42] <DanC> Hixie: we're trying to make it grow; with HTML 4, it was empty. HTML 5 makes it significantly larger
# [23:42] <MikeSmith> s/[missed; help, Mike?]/process them with HTML5 parser frontend on an XML toolchain
# [23:43] <DanC> TimBL: I use tidy to make XML... making an empty <blockquote /> or <div /> isn't something I do as a matter of course...
# [23:43] <ht> I was just checking that expected error recovery "doesn't count" as far as legitimate use of the media types is concerned
# [23:43] <MikeSmith> Larry has arrived
# [23:43] <Lachy> q+
# [23:43] * Zakim whispers to Lachy that the speaker queue has been closed
# [23:43] <DanC> ... and the insertion of <thead> between <table> and <tr> doesn't bother me because I'm not doing scripting/xpaths.
# [23:43] * Quits: Kangchan (Kangchan@72.254.12.64) (Ping timeout)
# [23:44] <DanC> ... so for lots of ordinary documents, it [polydocument document] is fine
# [23:44] * tantek notes that insertion of tbody may affect style rules (CSS) as well as the DOM/scripting/xpaths.
# [23:44] * Quits: plh (plh@128.30.52.28) (Quit: always accept cookies)
# [23:44] <DanC> TimBL: some shops have all sorts of content management with XML doing lots of things, one of which is the web site.
# [23:45] <paulc> ack rubys
# [23:45] * Zakim sees timbl_ on the speaker queue
# [23:45] <DanC> ... so I wouldn't want them to have to double their toolset [i.e. adding HTML 5 parsers] just to parse, e.g. HTML descriptions of people in HR systems
# [23:45] <rubys> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/infrastructure.html#extensibility => http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/11/05/Web3D
# [23:45] <pimpbot> Title: 2 Common infrastructure HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
# [23:46] <paulc> ack timbl
# [23:46] <Zakim> timbl_, you wanted to talk about defining (a) a polyglot set of constrains and (b) the properties they have
# [23:46] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:46] <Lachy> q+
# [23:46] * Zakim whispers to Lachy that the speaker queue has been closed
# [23:46] <DanC> SR: with years of practice in this space, it's [remarkably difficult] and the tools I develop show that people [mess it up in an amazing variety of ways]
# [23:46] * masinter wonders if the charter can be read as requiring an update to http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#guidelines
# [23:46] <pimpbot> Title: XHTML 1.0: The Extensible HyperText Markup Language (Second Edition) (at www.w3.org)
# [23:47] * DanC suddenly wonders how to open the q back up :-/
# [23:47] * annevk wonders if someone has ever tried to DOS the queue with that technique
# [23:47] <DanC> PaulC: the point about staying neutral makes sense, as does the request for somebody to write up how to write polyglot documents
# [23:47] <Lachy> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/
# [23:47] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 Reference (at dev.w3.org)
# [23:48] <DanC> Lachlan: a draft I'm working on has a section on how to write polyglot documents
# [23:48] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.34.46)
# [23:49] <DanC> Topic: text/html media type registration and IETF compatibility guidelines
# [23:49] <Julian> it's related to http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/53
# [23:49] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-53 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [23:49] <DanC> q+
# [23:49] * Zakim whispers to DanC that the speaker queue has been closed
# [23:49] <MikeSmith> note that karl's document uses the term "versatile documents" instead of "polyglot documents"
# [23:49] <DanC> Zakim, open the queue
# [23:49] <Zakim> ok, DanC, the speaker queue is open
# [23:49] <Julian> q+
# [23:49] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
# [23:49] <Lachy> These documents are also useful for understanding polyglot documents http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML_vs._XHTML http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_Useful_Warning_Requests#Polyglot_Document_Checking
# [23:49] <DanC> +1 "versatile"
# [23:49] <pimpbot> Title: HTML vs. XHTML - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org)
# [23:49] <DanC> PaulC: where are we on this?
# [23:49] <DanC> SR: lots of discussion; little in the way of concrete proposals
# [23:49] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8209] New: The term "XML document" needs xreffing throughout. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0054.html> ** [Bug 8208] New: The data-* attributes need to be clearer about their applicability to JS libraries, and in particular should have some suggestions about using unambiguous attribute names like data-dojo-range or data-jq-selector or whatever. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzil
# [23:50] <Julian> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2854
# [23:50] <noahm> FWIW, my comment was that "XML document" was an example of what may be many terms that would benefit from hyperlinks leading to definitions or clarifications.
# [23:50] <DanC> Mainter: [missed some]... IETF media type guidelines prohibit changing a media type registration so as to invalidate content that was previously valid
# [23:50] <DanC> s/Mainter/Masinter/
# [23:51] <ht> s/on this/on the text.html media type registration/
# [23:51] <annevk> specifically: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4288#section-9
# [23:51] <pimpbot> Title: RFC 4288 - Media Type Specifications and Registration Procedures (at tools.ietf.org)
# [23:51] <annevk> "When review is required, a change request may be denied if it renders entities that were valid under the previous definition invalid under the new definition"
# [23:51] <DanC> LMM: When Dan C. and I worked on the text/html media type RFC, we noted practice such as writing to specific implementations, with plugins, etc. ....
# [23:52] <DanC> ... that seems valuable text to keep
# [23:52] <DanC> LMM: [something about which version of HTML features were introduced in.] This history is useful.
# [23:52] <annevk> q+
# [23:52] * Zakim sees Julian, annevk on the speaker queue
# [23:53] <Hixie> q+
# [23:53] * Zakim sees Julian, annevk, Hixie on the speaker queue
# [23:53] * noahm I'd like to ask a point of information: do folks from the HTML WG understand what Larry is asking for?
# [23:53] <Hixie> q-
# [23:53] * Zakim sees Julian, annevk on the speaker queue
# [23:53] * tantek does not understand Larry's request/proposal.
# [23:53] <DanC> LMM: updating a media type registration requires going thru the same process that created the original. [scribe is losing the thread]
# [23:53] <Hixie> q+ to point to section 1.4
# [23:53] * Zakim sees Julian, annevk, Hixie on the speaker queue
# [23:54] * noahm Suggestion: chair ask LMM for two sentence definition of what he wants
# [23:54] * tantek seconds noahm's suggestion.
# [23:54] <Julian> q-
# [23:54] * Zakim sees annevk, Hixie on the speaker queue
# [23:54] <DanC> LMM: a document that says "there were these versions of HTML; now there's a new one: HTML 5"
# [23:54] <DanC> ... would be good.
# [23:55] <DanC> Paul: I hear you saying (a) there's historical material in the text/html media type spec that shouldn't be removed
# [23:55] <DanC> [scribe missed (b)]
# [23:55] <DanC> annevk: "When review is required, a change request may be denied if it renders entities that were valid under the previous definition invalid under the new definition" -- RFC 4288
# [23:56] <DanC> LMM: it's not only that old valid content should stay valid, but that old specifications as a whole are still relevant.
# [23:56] <noahm> q?
# [23:56] * Zakim sees annevk, Hixie on the speaker queue
# [23:56] <annevk> q-
# [23:56] * Zakim sees Hixie on the speaker queue
# [23:57] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.34.46) (Ping timeout)
# [23:57] <DanC> PaulC: so your suggestion is...?
# [23:57] <Hixie> ack
# [23:57] <Hixie> Zakim: ack
# [23:57] <annevk> lets play HTML5 the movie
# [23:58] <DanC> LMM: I asked that the media type registration be taken out and handled [later? after PR?]
# [23:58] <DanC> ack Hixie
# [23:58] <Zakim> Hixie, you wanted to point to section 1.4
# [23:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:58] <DanC> Hixie: I think section 1.4 of the current HTML 5 spec subsumes the history from the registration
# [23:59] * annevk ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRG5VNNUq_E
# [23:59] <pimpbot> Title: YouTube - HTML5 trailer - Find your Hero (at www.youtube.com)
# [23:59] <DanC> TimBL: as Director, I point out that mime type registration should be *inside* the spec, not separate, to prevent inconsistencies.
# [23:59] <DanC> PaulC: noted.
# Session Close: Fri Nov 06 00:00:00 2009

The end :)