/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2010-02-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Feb 11 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  37. # [08:55] <anne> there are no redirects from the old wiki to the new wiki...
  38. # [08:56] <mjs> oh man
  39. # [08:57] <mjs> I should totally update all the change proposal links on the status page to point to the new wiki
  40. # [09:01] <Hixie> there's a new wiki?
  41. # [09:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: yes. at last. MediaWiki FTW!
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  45. # [09:28] <anne> Julian, we fixed the path issue and have prolly fixed a bunch of sites with browser.js to make them work when we didn't have that
  46. # [09:29] <anne> oh well, I can't really be bothered with this
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  57. # [10:41] <MikeSmithX> anne, mjs - I guess I need to check into setting up redirects from the old wiki to the new one
  58. # [10:42] <MikeSmithX> it seems like it might just amount to one change in an .htaccess or in the apache config
  59. # [10:45] <MikeSmithX> btw, in case it's not clear, the W3C mediawiki wiki uses the same username/password as your W3C user/web account
  60. # [10:45] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
  61. # [10:47] <anne> on the WebApps wiki you could use OpenID
  62. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> didn't know that
  63. # [10:48] <anne> or can
  64. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> if that's the case, I suppose we could set it up for the HTML wg wiki too
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  67. # [11:44] <Julian> Anne, path issues? (URL decomp.?) What is browser.js?
  68. # [11:45] <anne> nm
  69. # [11:54] <MikeSmithX> anne, mjs - wiki redirect is now set up
  70. # [11:54] <MikeSmithX> except for http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement
  71. # [11:55] <MikeSmithX> which I'm working on now
  72. # [11:55] <anne> sweet
  73. # [11:55] <anne> you are teh awesome
  74. # [11:55] <MikeSmithX> s/I'm working on/is being worked on/
  75. # [11:56] <MikeSmithX> I'm just the cook. I get paid two bottles of wine a week, and I don't have to pick any cucumbers or tomatoes
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  77. # [11:58] * anne wants sushi
  78. # [12:00] <MikeSmithX> anne: you gotta come back to Tokyo this Spring
  79. # [12:00] <MikeSmithX> we'll do some walking
  80. # [12:00] <anne> in particular nigiri
  81. # [12:00] <MikeSmithX> yep
  82. # [12:00] <MikeSmithX> no shortage of that here
  83. # [12:00] <MikeSmithX> I'm on this walking kick lately
  84. # [12:00] <anne> cool :)
  85. # [12:01] <anne> after patagonia i haven't really had the chance, but we got a small overdoses there :p
  86. # [12:01] <MikeSmithX> it's a different kind of walking here
  87. # [12:01] <MikeSmithX> urban
  88. # [12:01] <MikeSmithX> but historical at the same time
  89. # [12:02] <MikeSmithX> walked from my place in Shinjuku along the Kanda river all the way to Asakusa
  90. # [12:02] <MikeSmithX> Kanda river used to be called Edo
  91. # [12:02] <MikeSmithX> Edo=previous name of Tokyo before the modern government overthrew the shogun
  92. # [12:03] <jgraham> MikeSmithX: You could get out of the city you know. There is some great walking in Japan
  93. # [12:03] <MikeSmithX> well, I've walked a lot of other places too
  94. # [12:03] <jgraham> In the mountains. Although spring might be a bit early I guess
  95. # [12:04] <MikeSmithX> but I can walk for three hours straight and still be in Shinjuku, which is just one part of 23 parts of Tokyo
  96. # [12:05] <MikeSmithX> but the mountains are great too
  97. # [12:05] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233)
  98. # [12:05] * jgraham wants to go back to Japan :(
  99. # [12:06] <anne> is may still good MikeSmithX?
  100. # [12:06] <anne> or better in april?
  101. # [12:06] <MikeSmithX> jgraham: come visit any time - you welcome to stay at my place, and i'm sure the Opera office could make some desk space
  102. # [12:06] <MikeSmithX> anne: early april, there should still be some cherry blossoms
  103. # [12:07] <MikeSmithX> May weather is still great
  104. # [12:07] <MikeSmithX> rainy season starts in June, and gets pretty humid
  105. # [12:11] <jgraham> MikeSmithX: Thanks :) I will try to do that sometime
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  118. # [14:26] <Julian> another question re WEBADDRESSES as in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/href/draft
  119. # [14:26] <Julian> does anybody understand what section 2 step 3 is about?
  120. # [14:30] <anne> avoiding escaping IPv6 URLs?
  121. # [14:31] <Julian> but theyl'' be decoded in step 6 anyway, right=
  122. # [14:32] <Julian> ?
  123. # [14:32] <Julian> What makes "[" and "]" in the hostname different from anywhere else?
  124. # [14:33] <anne> IPv6
  125. # [14:35] <Julian> doesn't compute
  126. # [14:35] <Julian> why is the special treatment needed here?
  127. # [14:35] <Julian> i probably miss something
  128. # [14:36] <Julian> but it appears to me that the end result will be the same, as any escaping is undone in step 6
  129. # [14:37] <anne> would it match the URI-reference production regardless?
  130. # [14:38] <Julian> ah
  131. # [14:38] <Julian> so this is to prevent an URI like "http://a[b]/c" to parse?
  132. # [14:39] <Julian> that's my problem with this spec; it doesn't say anything about *why* things are required
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  136. # [14:41] <anne> no, it's to make sure /[] parses
  137. # [14:41] <anne> well, http://example.org/[]
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  139. # [14:41] <anne> afaict that does not match URI-reference
  140. # [14:42] <anne> not very hard to figure out
  141. # [14:42] <anne> imo
  142. # [14:47] <Julian> yes and so
  143. # [14:47] <Julian> and no
  144. # [14:47] <Julian> sigh
  145. # [14:48] <Julian> step 3 is there so "[]" is treated differently in the authority component
  146. # [14:48] <anne> anyways, writing all the rationale in the spec as well would prolly cost a lot more time, epsecially if it's still in the changing state and with legacy impl it'll take some time before it is out of that state
  147. # [14:48] <Julian> otherwise [ and ] could simply handled in step 2
  148. # [14:48] <anne> yeah, in the authority component you do not want to escape it because they are special characters there
  149. # [14:48] <anne> for IPv6
  150. # [14:48] <Julian> well, legacy impls do not do what step 3 requires
  151. # [14:49] <Julian> nope
  152. # [14:49] <anne> sure, they all do something else
  153. # [14:49] <Julian> they are not special
  154. # [14:49] <anne> yes they are, see gen-delims
  155. # [14:49] <Julian> yes
  156. # [14:50] <Julian> there's a special case in the ABNF to allow [ and ] for ip literals
  157. # [14:50] <Julian> but what's not clear is why the spec, which does allow all kind of broken input in other parts, does not allow it here
  158. # [14:51] <anne> why would it?
  159. # [14:51] <anne> it would not resolve anyway
  160. # [14:51] <Julian> well
  161. # [14:51] <Julian> the spec says parsing should fail with an error
  162. # [14:52] <Julian> it doesn't do in all the UAs I tested
  163. # [14:52] <Julian> there's a problem here
  164. # [14:52] <Julian> s/do/so that/
  165. # [14:52] <anne> where?
  166. # [14:52] <Julian> if the spec has a normative requirement to abort parsing, but implementations do not do that, this isn't a problem?
  167. # [14:53] <anne> it very much depends
  168. # [14:53] <anne> well, for sure it's a bug, but it's not always a fault with the spec
  169. # [14:53] <Julian> Minimally. http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/infrastructure.html#interfaces-for-url-manipulation should say what happens if parsing the web address fails
  170. # [14:55] <anne> actually, webaddress should prolly define what all the components are if parsing failed
  171. # [14:55] <anne> that would be a spec bug
  172. # [14:56] <Julian> in which case the parsing could be made much simpler by saying
  173. # [14:56] <Julian> apply http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc3986.html#regexp
  174. # [14:56] <Julian> (or rewrite the regexp in prose)
  175. # [14:57] <anne> could just fix the iri parsing rules
  176. # [14:58] <Julian> we can't "fix" them
  177. # [14:59] <Julian> for instance, there are specs that rely on SP being a separator
  178. # [14:59] <Julian> including HTML5, btw
  179. # [14:59] <Julian> (ping attribute)
  180. # [14:59] <Julian> we can define extensions
  181. # [14:59] <Julian> hopefully just one (for both LEIRI and WEBADDRESSES)
  182. # [15:00] <anne> oh please
  183. # [15:00] <anne> they can just split on SP first
  184. # [15:00] <anne> we can fix them
  185. # [15:00] <anne> and your argument is bs
  186. # [15:00] <anne> imo
  187. # [15:00] <Julian> so you go "fix" the other specs :-)
  188. # [15:01] <Julian> XML Schema, for instance
  189. # [15:01] <anne> they have to be fixed anyway once they update to a new RFC
  190. # [15:01] <anne> goes like that all the time
  191. # [15:01] <anne> they prolly wanna think twice too given the madness of IDNA2008
  192. # [15:01] <anne> weren't you all fan of updating reference and fixing bugs in the spec if they change?
  193. # [15:01] <Julian> well, I believe it would be a bad change; we had that discussion as RFC3987 was written
  194. # [15:01] <anne> references*
  195. # [15:02] <Julian> and yes, it would be great if we could decouple IRIbis from the IDNA madness
  196. # [15:02] <anne> bad change is different from we can't fix it
  197. # [15:03] <anne> that's just a design preference
  198. # [15:04] <Julian> if the update of RFC 3987 breaks existing specs it's unlikely to get IESG approval
  199. # [15:04] <Julian> go ahead, try
  200. # [15:04] <anne> can we stop with the authority arguments?
  201. # [15:05] <anne> it's not at all productive
  202. # [15:06] <Julian> it's also not productive to pretend we can do things we can't
  203. # [15:06] <anne> sure, but I think you're wrong
  204. # [15:07] <anne> the IESG argument has been used in the context of websockets, text/html, and now IRIbis and 2 out of 3 times it turned out to be not a huge deal and for this we don't really know
  205. # [15:08] <anne> i'm tired of it
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  207. # [15:50] <Julian> Anne, [new topic] :-)
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  209. # [15:51] <Julian> Does XHR attempt to define how to handle non-ASCII characters in the URL?
  210. # [15:56] <anne> it defers to parse a URL
  211. # [15:56] <anne> didn't we discuss this already?
  212. # [15:57] <Julian> we might, but then it was so long ago I don't recall
  213. # [15:57] <Julian> the algorithm it refers to doesn't seem to deal with IRI vs URI
  214. # [16:05] <anne> does it have to?
  215. # [16:06] <Julian> well, the question is what is being put on the wire.
  216. # [16:06] <Julian> if you have non-ASCII characters in the IRI, what do you do with them?
  217. # [16:07] <anne> dunno, what happens for <a>?
  218. # [16:07] <Julian> see, the question is whether it's the same
  219. # [16:08] <anne> how is it different?
  220. # [16:08] <anne> anyway, all browsers other than IE handle IRIs fine
  221. # [16:09] <anne> is your issue that it is not clear that IRIs need to be converted to URIs before being used in HTTP?
  222. # [16:09] <anne> is not that not stated in the IRI spec?
  223. # [16:09] <Julian> if we only have IE doing the wrong thing I'm happy
  224. # [16:10] <Julian> wait
  225. # [16:10] <anne> we had this exact discussion on the mailing list some time ago
  226. # [16:11] <Julian> if we can rely on http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3987#section-3.1
  227. # [16:12] <Julian> than it's probably fine, but mentioning it wouldn't hurt
  228. # [16:12] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008Jun/0092.html
  229. # [16:12] * anne goes back to CSS
  230. # [16:13] <anne> good to know you're more supportive of it now
  231. # [16:13] <anne> though
  232. # [16:13] <Julian> I just tested [] with XHR in Opera, and it get's unescaped on the wire (in the path)
  233. # [16:16] <anne> sure
  234. # [16:16] <anne> i think what hixie tried to do with html5 url parsing was to make browsers "conforming"
  235. # [16:17] <anne> cause [] in path is clearly not a valid URI and servers could reject it (though most don't, so presumably they do not use compliant URL parsers either)
  236. # [16:17] <anne> or URI parsers or whatever
  237. # [16:17] <Julian> I have no problem with that, unless someone pretends that there already is a certain behavior that is needed for web compatibility when that is not the case
  238. # [16:17] <Julian> I agree that not escaping [] will be harmless in practice
  239. # [16:18] <Julian> the question is how specific IRIbis need to get in descibing the behavior for broken IRIs
  240. # [16:18] <Julian> that's what I'm trying to find out
  241. # [16:19] <anne> only if your goal is to not specify details and let implementors reverse engineer each other for a bit
  242. # [16:19] <anne> it's been shown time and again that doing the same is far more useful than just differing a bit for the sake of exactly nothing
  243. # [16:20] <Julian> well, there is no uniform behavior right now
  244. # [16:21] <Julian> I have no problem documenting what various impls do, but I don't see a reason why that would be more than an implementation report; but sure, we had *that* discussion sufficiently often
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  246. # [16:22] <anne> documenting what impls do is not interesting at all
  247. # [16:22] <anne> imo
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  261. # [17:59] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-html-wg-irc
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  264. # [18:02] <rubys> trackbot, start meeting
  265. # [18:02] * trackbot is preparing a teleconference
  266. # [18:02] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  267. # [18:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  268. # [18:02] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  269. # [18:02] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
  270. # [18:02] <Zakim> HTML matches both WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM and HTML_WG()12:00PM
  271. # [18:02] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
  272. # [18:02] <trackbot> Date: 11 February 2010
  273. # [18:02] <rubys> zakim, this will be HTML_WG
  274. # [18:02] <Zakim> ok, rubys, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
  275. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Sam
  276. # [18:03] <Julian> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  277. # [18:03] <Zakim> On the phone I see Radhika_Roy, +49.251.2.aaaa, Sam
  278. # [18:03] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  279. # [18:03] <anne> I don't have a working Skype so I won't be able to attend
  280. # [18:03] <Zakim> - +49.251.2.aaaa
  281. # [18:03] * plh zakim, call plh-work
  282. # [18:03] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
  283. # [18:03] <Zakim> +Plh
  284. # [18:03] * Joins: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@131.107.0.69)
  285. # [18:03] <paulc> zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
  286. # [18:03] <Zakim> +paulc; got it
  287. # [18:03] <anne> If any more updates to html5-diff are needed please email, I'll get to it tomorrow or so.
  288. # [18:03] <Zakim> +dsinger_
  289. # [18:03] <paulc> Thanks, anne.
  290. # [18:04] * Joins: dsinger_ (mobile@67.218.110.209)
  291. # [18:04] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30)
  292. # [18:04] <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger_
  293. # [18:04] <Zakim> dsinger_ should now be muted
  294. # [18:04] <paulc> I will mention the diffs status for you when we get to agenda item 3
  295. # [18:04] <dsinger_> zakim, who is here?
  296. # [18:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see Radhika_Roy, Sam, [Microsoft], Plh, dsinger_ (muted)
  297. # [18:04] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has paulc
  298. # [18:04] <Zakim> On IRC I see MichaelC, dsinger_, Eliot_Graff, Zakim, paulc, krisk, RRSAgent, rubys, Mark, MikeSmith, mjs, kliehm, plh, aroben, miketaylr, Lachy, krijnh, arronei, Julian, ROBOd,
  299. # [18:04] <Zakim> ... gavin_, anne, tlr, dsinger, shepazu, syp, CIA-1, karl, jgraham, jmb, Philip, hsivonen, Hixie, gsnedders, mamund, johndrinkwater, trackbot, webben, paul_irish, Shunsuke, tH,
  300. # [18:04] <Zakim> ... drry, Dashiva, ed_work, gavin, inimino, hober, Yudai
  301. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
  302. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper
  303. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.251.280.aabb
  304. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Bryan_Sullivan
  305. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  306. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
  307. # [18:05] <Julian> Zakim, +1.251.280.aabb is me
  308. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Julian; got it
  309. # [18:05] <paulc> who is CAI-1?
  310. # [18:05] <Eliot_Graff> zakim, Microsoft.a is me
  311. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Eliot_Graff; got it
  312. # [18:05] <rubys> http://cia.vc
  313. # [18:05] <Zakim> +kliehm
  314. # [18:05] <krisk> zakim, [Microsoft.aa] has krisk franko
  315. # [18:05] <Zakim> +krisk, franko; got it
  316. # [18:05] * dsinger_ maybe the CIA culinary institute of america
  317. # [18:05] <rubys> scribe: rubys
  318. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Masinter
  319. # [18:06] * Joins: bryan_sullivan (aa23e041@128.30.52.43)
  320. # [18:06] * Joins: masinter (user@192.150.10.200)
  321. # [18:07] <rubys> topic: 1. ACTION items due by Thu Jan 28
  322. # [18:07] <Julian> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2010JanMar/0012.html
  323. # [18:07] <paulc> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0261.html
  324. # [18:07] * Joins: adrianba (adrianba@131.107.0.77)
  325. # [18:07] * Joins: cyns (43aa22f3@128.30.52.43)
  326. # [18:07] <rubys> topic: ACTION-127 on Maciej Stachowiak
  327. # [18:08] <rubys> paulc: there's been one comment, but no other comment. Can we close the action now?
  328. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
  329. # [18:08] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  330. # [18:08] <Zakim> +Mike
  331. # [18:08] <rubys> masinter: I'm trying to figure out at what point do people get to make comments?
  332. # [18:08] <rubys> paulc: is that a comment you can make on the thread?
  333. # [18:08] <adrianba> zakim, who is on the phone?
  334. # [18:08] <Zakim> On the phone I see Radhika_Roy, Sam, [Microsoft], Plh, dsinger_ (muted), Cynthia_Shelly, Michael_Cooper, Julian, Bryan_Sullivan, Eliot_Graff, [Microsoft.aa], kliehm, Masinter, Mike
  335. # [18:08] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has paulc
  336. # [18:08] <Zakim> [Microsoft.aa] has krisk, franko
  337. # [18:08] <rubys> masinter: we should see the final result before we approve it
  338. # [18:09] <adrianba> zakim, [Microsoft.aa] has adrianba
  339. # [18:09] <Zakim> +adrianba; got it
  340. # [18:09] <rubys> paulc: this is a never ending loop... it is out for comments
  341. # [18:09] <rubys> masinter: it wasn't clear to me
  342. # [18:10] <Julian> are we all talking about the same issue?
  343. # [18:10] <rubys> paulc: I believe that the plan is to start to use this policy, and I expect that we will need some changes in the future
  344. # [18:10] <rubys> close action-127
  345. # [18:10] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-127.
  346. # [18:10] <trackbot> ACTION-127 establish process for "official WG response" to other WG's RFC on LC drafts closed
  347. # [18:10] <rubys> topic: ACTION-163 on Michael(tm) Smith
  348. # [18:11] <rubys> MikeSmith: it is done, we can close the item. Everything is moved over. The old wiki is readonly now.
  349. # [18:11] <rubys> Paulc: link to the new wiki?
  350. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Main_Page
  351. # [18:11] <rubys> close action-163
  352. # [18:11] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-163.
  353. # [18:11] <trackbot> ACTION-163 MediaWiki successor for current MoinMoin based wiki closed
  354. # [18:11] <masinter> when there are comments on a document, the editor makes edits to respond to the comments, and the editor's response is reviewed by the group to make sure the group agrees to the editor's edit. If Maciej is editor of this document, then he should update it to respond to the comments on it. The comment was: the working group doesn't have an opportunity to review the proposed working group response before the working group's response is
  355. # [18:11] <masinter> set.
  356. # [18:12] <rubys> topic: action-168: H:TML
  357. # [18:12] <rubys> paulc: I made some comments
  358. # [18:12] <rubys> MikeSmith: I believe I've addressed them
  359. # [18:13] * Quits: dsinger_ (mobile@67.218.110.209) (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi)
  360. # [18:13] <masinter> The TAG had requested that it contain the RELAX-NG schema visible
  361. # [18:13] <rubys> MikeSmith: some parts won't show up until I flip the status to FPWD. I need a date.
  362. # [18:13] <rubys> PaulC: I'm not going to predict the date
  363. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/
  364. # [18:13] <rubys> close action-168
  365. # [18:13] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-168.
  366. # [18:13] <trackbot> ACTION-168 Prepare H:TML for First Public Working Draft closed
  367. # [18:13] <masinter> i updated the status of the action
  368. # [18:13] <rubys> topic: ACTION-172 open Insure Change Proposal for ISSUE-4 (versioning) also covers ISSUE-84
  369. # [18:14] <masinter> action-172?
  370. # [18:14] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-172
  371. # [18:14] <trackbot> ACTION-172 -- Larry Masinter to insure Change Proposal for ISSUE-4 (versioning) also covers ISSUE-84 (legacy doctype) -- due 2010-02-18 -- OPEN
  372. # [18:14] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/172
  373. # [18:14] <Zakim> + +1.218.340.aacc
  374. # [18:14] <rubys> masinter: we are still discussing this in the tag
  375. # [18:14] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
  376. # [18:14] <rubys> masinter: I updated the date to the 18th
  377. # [18:14] <rubys> masinter: that discussion is occuring on www-tag
  378. # [18:15] <masinter> uoting: 2010-02-10 17:49:18: Looks like I might get help from TAG, see, for example, TAG action 388 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/388 and http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/368, and "goals" for this change proposal at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Feb/0095.html
  379. # [18:15] <masinter> [Larry Masinter]
  380. # [18:15] <rubys> masinter: I updated the action to point to this discussion
  381. # [18:15] <rubys> topic: ACTION-174 open Send info about IETF IRI working group
  382. # [18:15] <masinter> action-174?
  383. # [18:15] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-174
  384. # [18:15] <trackbot> ACTION-174 -- Larry Masinter to send info about IETF IRI working group, next meeting, mailing list, status of documents, etc., to HTML WG -- due 2010-02-15 -- OPEN
  385. # [18:15] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/174
  386. # [18:15] <rubys> masinter: I postponed this by a few days
  387. # [18:16] <rubys> paulc: other action items will be convered in the i11y tf discussion
  388. # [18:16] <rubys> topic: Update on publishing new drafts
  389. # [18:16] <rubys> paulc: we now have a diffs doc and a call for consensus
  390. # [18:16] <rubys> paulc: all of the comments on the diffs document are being worked
  391. # [18:17] <paulc> CfC: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0262.html
  392. # [18:17] <rubys> paulc: any questions?
  393. # [18:17] <masinter> do I need to repeat objections?
  394. # [18:18] <rubys> paulc: the co-chairs are aware of the formal objection
  395. # [18:18] <rubys> rubys: it would be helpful to repeat the objection
  396. # [18:19] <rubys> paulc: it would be helpful to people who aren't reading w3-archive email
  397. # [18:19] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  398. # [18:19] <rubys> plh: we won't approve the FPWDs until the FO is resolved
  399. # [18:20] <masinter> sure, i'll forward my comment on scope
  400. # [18:20] <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
  401. # [18:20] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  402. # [18:20] <rubys> paulc: plh and larry, can you post the FO on the public-html list and the affects on the plans?
  403. # [18:20] <Zakim> -dsinger_
  404. # [18:20] <rubys> (plh and larry each agree)
  405. # [18:20] <rubys> topic: 4. WG Decision Policy
  406. # [18:21] <rubys> paulc: people should look at the bugzilla entries
  407. # [18:21] <rubys> http://tinyurl.com/ygc6uw8
  408. # [18:21] <Laura> HTML WG Process Bug List
  409. # [18:21] <Laura> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=HTML+WG&component=working+group+Decision+Policy
  410. # [18:21] <rubys> paulc: any questions?
  411. # [18:22] <rubys> larry: it is baffling to me what the process is for dealing with the bugzilla bugs. Feels like gnomic.
  412. # [18:22] <masinter> "Nomic"
  413. # [18:22] <rubys> s/gnomic/Nomic/
  414. # [18:22] <rubys> paulc: we documented your questions as bugs, and decided to track transparently the comments we receive and how we are disposing of them.
  415. # [18:23] <rubys> paulc: this is no different than the W3C Process document. If a person makes a comment, a bug is opened.
  416. # [18:23] <rubys> larry: who processes bugs on the bug reports?
  417. # [18:24] <rubys> paulc: we documented this in public, put out a call for consensus, and made it clear that we are going to start using it as early as possible.
  418. # [18:24] <rubys> paulc: we have had comments on it. In order to track those comments, we are simply using bugzilla to create a transparent history.
  419. # [18:25] <Laura> Will the process bugs have an escalation process to the tracker?
  420. # [18:25] <rubys> paulc: I put this on the agenda to ensure that everybody is aware. There was somebody not aware last week, and I pointed him to bugzilla, and there is a new bug.
  421. # [18:25] <rubys> masinter: the answer to my question is that the chairs will make changes
  422. # [18:25] <masinter> got it
  423. # [18:25] <rubys> paulc: the chairs will propose changes and come back to the wg
  424. # [18:26] <Laura> thanks
  425. # [18:26] <rubys> paulc: (re Laura's q) the chairs haven't discussed this, but we would certainly consider doing that...
  426. # [18:26] <masinter> i think the issue is that the working group process needs to follow the W3C Process, and that escalation should go to the AB
  427. # [18:27] <rubys> paulc: maybe you should open a bug
  428. # [18:27] <masinter> escalation of process issues
  429. # [18:27] <rubys> rubys: that would be a reasonable next step after the WG decision
  430. # [18:27] <rubys> topic: Call For Consensus that close by Feb 11
  431. # [18:28] <rubys> ISSUE-83: I believe that this is still in process
  432. # [18:28] * trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-83.
  433. # [18:28] <trackbot> ISSUE-83 Use of the dt and dd elements in figure and details content models notes added
  434. # [18:28] <rubys> paulc: issue-83 is resolved
  435. # [18:29] <rubys> close issue-83
  436. # [18:29] * trackbot attempting to close ISSUE-83.
  437. # [18:29] <trackbot> ISSUE-83 Use of the dt and dd elements in figure and details content models closed
  438. # [18:29] <rubys> topic: Call for Proposals that close
  439. # [18:29] <rubys> (none)
  440. # [18:29] <rubys> topic: New Calls for Proposals/Consensus this Week
  441. # [18:30] <rubys> paulc: there has been discussion about issue 27 as to whether we can resolve this issue until the registry has been tested
  442. # [18:30] <Julian> q+
  443. # [18:30] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  444. # [18:30] <paulc> ack Julian
  445. # [18:30] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  446. # [18:30] <rubys> ... I've sent some emails to get some status. The IETF doc is in 2nd last call. It is only after the doc is closed that the registry can be created
  447. # [18:31] <rubys> Julian: after it has been updated, it needs to to the IESG and then to the RFC editor and then to IANA... we at least are talking 6-8 weeks
  448. # [18:31] <rubys> paulc: so the question is whether we keep this in limbo for that time
  449. # [18:31] <rubys> paulc: please update the thread with this info
  450. # [18:31] <masinter> i don't think it's "limbo" when there's a clear path
  451. # [18:31] <rubys> paulc: we'll leave issues 27 in it current state for now.
  452. # [18:32] <rubys> topic: issue-88
  453. # [18:32] <rubys> paulc: maciej has the ball...
  454. # [18:32] <masinter> issue-88?
  455. # [18:32] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-88
  456. # [18:32] <trackbot> ISSUE-88 -- Should meta/@content allow a list of languages instead of just a single language? -- OPEN
  457. # [18:32] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/88
  458. # [18:33] <rubys> paulc: leave this in its current status and decide next week if a CfC or amicable resolution is the right next step
  459. # [18:33] <rubys> topic: New Calls for Counter Proposals this Week
  460. # [18:33] <rubys> topic: ISSUE-66 image-analysis
  461. # [18:33] <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0260.html
  462. # [18:34] <rubys> masinter: Matt is on vacation
  463. # [18:34] <rubys> rubys: this is for counters to Matt's proposal...
  464. # [18:35] <rubys> paulc: that's useful data, so that we don't misinterpret silence from Matt.
  465. # [18:35] <rubys> masinter: perhaps others from the a11y tf can help
  466. # [18:35] <rubys> topic: Testing Task Force
  467. # [18:35] <krisk> We met as a group on 2/9 (see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-testsuite/2010Feb/0002.html)
  468. # [18:36] <krisk> In addition to reviewing the tracker items and status (see http://www.w3.org/html/wg/test/track/actions/)
  469. # [18:36] <krisk> The biggest discussion was around leveraging the old DOM HTML Test suite.
  470. # [18:36] <krisk> The suite contains a number of tests that are part of HTML5.
  471. # [18:36] <krisk> Though it appears that some tests are not correct or interoperable with current modern browsers.
  472. # [18:36] <krisk> I expect that the testing task force will report back and create a bug, if we indeed need to clarify the HTML5 spec.
  473. # [18:37] <rubys> paulc: questions? comments?
  474. # [18:37] <rubys> topic: Accessibility Task Force
  475. # [18:37] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@88.131.66.80) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  476. # [18:37] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-html-a11y-minutes.html#item03
  477. # [18:37] <rubys> paulc: acitons 138, 170, 173...
  478. # [18:37] <MikeSmith> action-138?
  479. # [18:37] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-138
  480. # [18:37] <trackbot> ACTION-138 -- Steve Faulkner to produce an ARIA matrix based on Henri's work -- due 2010-02-11 -- OPEN
  481. # [18:37] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/138
  482. # [18:38] <rubys> Mike: the media TF is just getting going, and will have a telecon on the 16th (17th in australia). Sylvia has sent out an agenda.
  483. # [18:39] <rubys> ... the canvas TF is also having a telecon later today. After those telecons, we will have progress to report. Until then no new progress to report on.
  484. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> action-170?
  485. # [18:39] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-170
  486. # [18:39] <trackbot> ACTION-170 -- Janina Sajka to update A11Y timeline for tracker related issues -- due 2010-02-11 -- OPEN
  487. # [18:39] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/170
  488. # [18:39] <paulc> 170: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0293.html
  489. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> action-173?
  490. # [18:39] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-173
  491. # [18:39] <trackbot> ACTION-173 -- Steve Faulkner to update Change Proposal for ISSUE-31 missing-alt -- due 2010-02-10 -- OPEN
  492. # [18:39] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/173
  493. # [18:39] <rubys> paulc: when does the task force intend to bring back specific proposals for specific issues?
  494. # [18:40] <rubys> mike: I'm not sure when we will have further resolution on summary. As far as canvas... they are still working on details. I can't give a firm date.
  495. # [18:41] <rubys> cyns: we expect to have a proposal for summary ready for the TF next tuesday, and this should be ready for the next WG call
  496. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> issue-33?
  497. # [18:41] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-33
  498. # [18:41] <trackbot> ISSUE-33 -- [withdrawn] spec requires non-compliant Referer header -- CLOSED
  499. # [18:41] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/33
  500. # [18:41] <MichaelC> q+
  501. # [18:41] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  502. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> action-33?
  503. # [18:41] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-33
  504. # [18:41] <trackbot> ACTION-33 -- Chris Wilson to investigate an HTML WG blog, a la the way the I18N WG does it -- due 2008-02-05 -- CLOSED
  505. # [18:41] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/33
  506. # [18:41] <rubys> issue-32
  507. # [18:41] <rubys> issue-32?
  508. # [18:41] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-32
  509. # [18:41] <trackbot> ISSUE-32 -- how to provide a summary of a table, e.g. for unsighted navigation? -- OPEN
  510. # [18:41] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/32
  511. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> actually, it seems it's issue 32
  512. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> issue-32?
  513. # [18:42] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-32
  514. # [18:42] <trackbot> ISSUE-32 -- how to provide a summary of a table, e.g. for unsighted navigation? -- OPEN
  515. # [18:42] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/32
  516. # [18:42] <rubys> cyns: any member who is interested in this topic should watch the tf mailing list
  517. # [18:43] <rubys> paulc: it would help with confidence once we start seeing results.... it would also help to give people more heads up.
  518. # [18:43] <rubys> paulc: thank you to the TF
  519. # [18:43] <rubys> ack next
  520. # [18:43] * Zakim sees MichaelC at the head of the speaker queue
  521. # [18:43] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  522. # [18:44] <rubys> MichaelC: We have gone into bugzilla, and grouped them into related bugs, and would like to be able to do 5-10 bugs per week
  523. # [18:44] <paulc> A11Y F2F will be Apr 6-7 in UK
  524. # [18:44] <rubys> Michaelc: We plan to have a F2F meeting in early April, and progress will accelerate after that meeting
  525. # [18:44] * Joins: Andrew12 (andrew@70.21.0.164)
  526. # [18:45] * Quits: Mark (90a0e235@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
  527. # [18:45] * Joins: Mark (90a0e235@128.30.52.43)
  528. # [18:45] <rubys> paulc: any other comments?
  529. # [18:45] <MichaelC> ack me
  530. # [18:45] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  531. # [18:45] <rubys> action 170 is due in 2 weeks
  532. # [18:45] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  533. # [18:45] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 170
  534. # [18:46] <rubys> action-170 due in 2 weeks
  535. # [18:46] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-170.
  536. # [18:46] <trackbot> ACTION-170 Update A11Y timeline for tracker related issues due date now in 2 weeks
  537. # [18:46] <rubys> paulc: action 138 and action 173 needs new dates
  538. # [18:47] <rubys> laura: action 173 is done
  539. # [18:48] <rubys> close action-173, the change proposal is now in the hands of the task force
  540. # [18:48] <rubys> close action-173
  541. # [18:48] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-173.
  542. # [18:48] <trackbot> ACTION-173 Update Change Proposal for ISSUE-31 missing-alt closed
  543. # [18:48] <rubys> cyns: action-138 is a long term work item
  544. # [18:48] <rubys> action-137 due in 1 month
  545. # [18:48] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-137.
  546. # [18:48] <trackbot> ACTION-137 Update IRI spec based on comments to Public-IRI (Including those from HTML-WG members), due date now in 1 month
  547. # [18:49] <rubys> action-137 due in 1 month
  548. # [18:49] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-137.
  549. # [18:49] <trackbot> ACTION-137 Update IRI spec based on comments to Public-IRI (Including those from HTML-WG members), due date now in 1 month
  550. # [18:49] <masinter> action-137?
  551. # [18:49] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-137
  552. # [18:49] <trackbot> ACTION-137 -- Larry Masinter to update IRI spec based on comments to Public-IRI (Including those from HTML-WG members), -- due 2009-10-21 -- CLOSED
  553. # [18:49] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/137
  554. # [18:49] <masinter> action-137 is closed
  555. # [18:49] <rubys> action-138 due in 1 month
  556. # [18:49] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-138.
  557. # [18:49] <trackbot> ACTION-138 Produce an ARIA matrix based on Henri's work due date now in 1 month
  558. # [18:50] <rubys> kris: as the a11y tf brings forward proposals, it would be useful if they would also identify instances where test cases are required
  559. # [18:51] <rubys> cyns: we are not quite there yet
  560. # [18:51] <rubys> topic: 11. Discussion Items
  561. # [18:52] <rubys> paulc: we are continuing to discuss F2F meeting with other chairs and are looking at a date in April and are well aware of the feedback on the public-html list
  562. # [18:52] <rubys> cyns: looking for hosts?
  563. # [18:52] <rubys> paulc: we have several offers, so that is not a concern.
  564. # [18:52] <rubys> topic: Scribe for next meeting
  565. # [18:52] <rubys> Paulc volunteers to scribe
  566. # [18:53] * Quits: bryan_sullivan (aa23e041@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC)
  567. # [18:53] * Joins: sbublava (sbublava@77.119.127.61)
  568. # [18:53] <rubys> masinter: re: the F2F, are you accepting suggestions for agenda items?
  569. # [18:53] <rubys> paulc: post suggestions to the list
  570. # [18:54] <rubys> masinter: a prioritized list of issues on which we haven't made progress would be a good place to start
  571. # [18:54] <rubys> paulc: we seem to be making good progress, people are welcome to propose specific issues
  572. # [18:54] <rubys> paulc: it is highly unlikely that we will be making decisions at a F2F
  573. # [18:54] <rubys> masinter: I'm not tracking all of the issues that are open
  574. # [18:55] <rubys> paulc: I understand the criteria
  575. # [18:55] <rubys> paulc: any other comments
  576. # [18:55] <rubys> paulc: adjourned
  577. # [18:55] <Zakim> -kliehm
  578. # [18:55] <Zakim> -Bryan_Sullivan
  579. # [18:55] <Zakim> -Masinter
  580. # [18:55] <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
  581. # [18:55] <Zakim> -Julian
  582. # [18:55] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
  583. # [18:55] * Quits: kliehm (kliehm@80.146.185.162) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158])
  584. # [18:55] <rubys> 'trackbot, publish minutes
  585. # [18:55] <rubys> trackbot, publish minutes
  586. # [18:55] <trackbot> Sorry, rubys, I don't understand 'trackbot, publish minutes'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  587. # [18:55] <rubys> rrsagent, publish minutes
  588. # [18:56] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-html-wg-minutes.html rubys
  589. # [18:56] * Quits: adrianba (adrianba@131.107.0.77) (Quit: Bye!)
  590. # [18:56] <Zakim> -Eliot_Graff
  591. # [18:56] * Quits: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@131.107.0.69) (Quit: Light travels faster then sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak)
  592. # [18:56] <Zakim> - +1.218.340.aacc
  593. # [18:56] <Zakim> -Plh
  594. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
  595. # [18:56] <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
  596. # [18:56] * dsinger cheers
  597. # [18:56] <Zakim> -Mike
  598. # [18:56] <Zakim> -Radhika_Roy
  599. # [18:56] <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
  600. # [18:56] <Zakim> -Sam
  601. # [18:56] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  602. # [18:57] * Quits: Mark (90a0e235@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
  603. # [18:58] <Laura> present+ Laura
  604. # [18:58] <Laura> bye
  605. # [18:58] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217) (Quit: Laura)
  606. # [18:59] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  607. # [18:59] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  608. # [18:59] <Zakim> Attendees were Radhika_Roy, +49.251.2.aaaa, Sam, Plh, paulc, dsinger_, Cynthia_Shelly, Michael_Cooper, Bryan_Sullivan, [Microsoft], Julian, Eliot_Graff, kliehm, krisk, franko,
  609. # [18:59] <Zakim> ... Masinter, Mike, adrianba, +1.218.340.aacc, dsinger
  610. # [19:00] * Quits: krisk (836b0048@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
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  626. # [21:02] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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  635. # Session Close: Fri Feb 12 00:00:00 2010

The end :)